Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Chris]

Im not so sure, NSA needs a 'marketing' boon or boom (whichever you 
meant). But I for one would not mind a tasteful logo on my webserver 
that proclaims, protected by SElinux.

- borg
www.cr-secure.net

Bill Laut wrote:

>My church recently obtained a DSL connection with the prospect I'll be tasked 
>with setting up their web/email/proxy servers.  As part of protecting their 
>internal LAN I'd like to migrate their existing Linux server over to SELinux.  
>
>Therefore, now that SELinux has gone mainstream (in v2.6) would this be an 
>appropriate time for NSA to consider designing a suitable logo for SELinux?  
>Specifically, something that can be incorporated into Web pages that are 
>hosted on servers protected by SELinux.
>
>Since SELinux is rapidly becoming the next "ultra-cool" security 
>infrastructure within the Linux community, a tasteful "button" that could be 
>pasted onto webpages would be a great marketing boon.  I, for one, would love 
>to brag on my church's opening webpage that their site is "Powered by Apache, 
>Protected by SELinux."  (The "Secured by ..." is already taken by OpenSSL.) 
>
>An elegant, tasteful button modelled after the buttons at:
>
>                     http://www.modssl.org/docs/buttons.html
>
>could now be useful in promoting SELinux.
>
>Any comments?
>
>
>Bill
>
>
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>
>  
>


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Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Bill Laut]

My church recently obtained a DSL connection with the prospect I'll be tasked 
with setting up their web/email/proxy servers.  As part of protecting their 
internal LAN I'd like to migrate their existing Linux server over to SELinux.  

Therefore, now that SELinux has gone mainstream (in v2.6) would this be an 
appropriate time for NSA to consider designing a suitable logo for SELinux?  
Specifically, something that can be incorporated into Web pages that are 
hosted on servers protected by SELinux.

Since SELinux is rapidly becoming the next "ultra-cool" security 
infrastructure within the Linux community, a tasteful "button" that could be 
pasted onto webpages would be a great marketing boon.  I, for one, would love 
to brag on my church's opening webpage that their site is "Powered by Apache, 
Protected by SELinux."  (The "Secured by ..." is already taken by OpenSSL.) 

An elegant, tasteful button modelled after the buttons at:

                     http://www.modssl.org/docs/buttons.html

could now be useful in promoting SELinux.

Any comments?


Bill


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 572 bytes --]

On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 18:56:17 EDT, Bill Laut <wlsel@verizon.net>  said:
> to brag on my church's opening webpage that their site is "Powered by Apache, 
> Protected by SELinux."  (The "Secured by ..." is already taken by OpenSSL.) 

Gaak. :)

Although SELinux is a very slick and powerful tool, we have to keep in mind:

"Computers aren't secured by tools, they're secured by proper policies and
sysadmin vigilance".

On the other hand, a button that says "Webserver secured by an admin clued
enough to install and manage SELinux properly".. Now *THAT* is a statement. :)


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RE: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Frank Mayer]

Not that I would necessarily recommend this one, but we've been using the simple
logon on our web site for a couple of years now:  http://www.tresys.com/selinux/

owner-selinux@tycho.nsa.gov wrote:
> My church recently obtained a DSL connection with the prospect I'll
> be tasked with setting up their web/email/proxy servers.  As part of
> protecting their internal LAN I'd like to migrate their existing
> Linux server over to SELinux. 
> 
> Therefore, now that SELinux has gone mainstream (in v2.6) would this
> be an appropriate time for NSA to consider designing a suitable logo
> for SELinux? Specifically, something that can be incorporated into
> Web pages that are hosted on servers protected by SELinux.
> 
> Since SELinux is rapidly becoming the next "ultra-cool" security
> infrastructure within the Linux community, a tasteful "button" that
> could be pasted onto webpages would be a great marketing boon.  I,
> for one, would love to brag on my church's opening webpage that their
> site is "Powered by Apache, Protected by SELinux."  (The "Secured by
> ..." is already taken by OpenSSL.) 
> 
> An elegant, tasteful button modelled after the buttons at:
> 
                     http://www.modssl.org/docs/buttons.html




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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Bill Laut]

On Sunday 04 April 2004 06:11 pm, Chris wrote:
> Im not so sure, NSA needs a 'marketing' boon or boom (whichever you
> meant).
>

boon, n.  1. a welcome favor or blessing.
boom, v.i.:  To increase suddenly or grow swiftly; flourish.

In SELinux's case, the boon leads to the boom.  :-)

Perhaps the adjective "marketing" conjures disagreeable associations.  My 
thought here was more about basic human psychology and the natural desire to 
be part of the "in" crowd.  Having an SELinux button appearing on websites 
will surely attract attention, starting with the technical/security devotees;  
and as more favorable press coverage is given to SELinux, an SELinux button 
appearing on websites could become a "security talisman" of sorts to managers 
and other decision-makers who have become sensitized to its meaning. 

>
> But I for one would not mind a tasteful logo on my webserver
> that proclaims, protected by SElinux.
>

My point exactly.

--------------------------------

>From Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu:

>
> Although SELinux is a very slick and powerful tool, we have to keep in mind:
>
> "Computers aren't secured by tools, they're secured by proper policies and
> sysadmin vigilance".
>

You're preaching to the choir.  :-)

>
> On the other hand, a button that says "Webserver secured by an admin clued
> enough to install and manage SELinux properly".. Now *THAT* is a statement.
>

And which would never be legible on a standard-sized button, hence my pithy 
"Protected by SELinux" proposal.  Furthermore, as stated in my reply to 
Chris, decision-makers who begin seeing these buttons appearing on websites 
will likely be more inclined to regard SELinux as a serious tool, as opposed 
to marginalizing it as "just another toy" that the geeky/nerdy Admin wants to 
play with.

-----------------------------------------------

>From "Frank Mayer" <mayerf@tresys.com>:

>
> Not that I would necessarily recommend this one, but we've been using the 
> simple logon on our web site for a couple of years now: 
> http://www.tresys.com/selinux/
>

Personally, I'd like something that conformed to the same dimensions as found 
on the modssl site.

Here's a quick doodle I whipped up using GIMP (and borrowing the NSA's logo).  
I would have to make the text legible.  What do you think?  It says:

Protected By
SELinux      (NSA logo)
Mandatory Access Controls

Of course, I understand this is not an authorized use of the NSA's logo.  It 
is only done here as an exercise in stimulating thought and discussion.

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end


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Kerry Thompson]

Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu said:
>
> On the other hand, a button that says "Webserver secured by an admin clued
> enough to install and manage SELinux properly".. Now *THAT* is a
> statement. :)
>

Maybe it should be "Security Enhanced by SELinux" ? Although the term
"enhanced" is a bit weak and could mean almost anything.

My 2c worth.

Kerry


-- 
Kerry Thompson, CCNA CISSP
Information Systems Security Consultant
http://www.crypt.gen.nz  kerry@crypt.gen.nz

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Dean Anderson]

Probably you shouldn't say anything, lest some flaw in SELinux be
exploited. Real tripwires are attached to mines and flares. Flares let you
detect the enemy, mines kill them.  You never paint your tripwires bright
orange.  Nor do you put a sign up that says "Post protected by flares and
mines." with arrows pointing to the tripwires.  

SELinux merely gives you a chance to detect the cracker before they are
successful.  If they know that going in, you've already lost one
advantage.  

		--Dean

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 18:56:17 EDT, Bill Laut <wlsel@verizon.net>  said:
> > to brag on my church's opening webpage that their site is "Powered by Apache, 
> > Protected by SELinux."  (The "Secured by ..." is already taken by OpenSSL.) 
> 
> Gaak. :)
> 
> Although SELinux is a very slick and powerful tool, we have to keep in mind:
> 
> "Computers aren't secured by tools, they're secured by proper policies and
> sysadmin vigilance".
> 
> On the other hand, a button that says "Webserver secured by an admin clued
> enough to install and manage SELinux properly".. Now *THAT* is a statement. :)
> 
> 

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Bill McCarty]

Hi all,

Hmm, not that I lack confidence in the security enhancements provided by 
SELinux. But, I think I'd more likely use an SELinux logo on systems that 
**aren't** protected by SELinux <g>. For systems that really do run 
SELinux, I'd prefer that would-be attackers be unaware of what they're up 
against. A dash of security through obscurity is sometimes useful, in my 
view, so long as it's not the primary defensive measure. Anyone who thinks 
otherwise is welcome to send me his or her ATM PIN code <g>.

But, I run honeypots adjacent to my production servers. So, I may be a bit 
more paranoid about my production servers than most folks <g>.

Cheers,

---------------------------------------------------
Bill McCarty, Ph.D.
Professor of Information Technology
Azusa Pacific University



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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Joshua Brindle]

I'm no artist but I made a few buttons you guys could take a look at and 
see if you like them or want something changed.. This was a pretty quick 
job, each one changes as requests were made to change things so you can 
see the evolutionary process.

http://tachyon.snu.edu/selinux-buttons.html

Joshua Brindle

Bill Laut wrote:

> My church recently obtained a DSL connection with the prospect I'll be tasked 
> with setting up their web/email/proxy servers.  As part of protecting their 
> internal LAN I'd like to migrate their existing Linux server over to SELinux.  
> 
> Therefore, now that SELinux has gone mainstream (in v2.6) would this be an 
> appropriate time for NSA to consider designing a suitable logo for SELinux?  
> Specifically, something that can be incorporated into Web pages that are 
> hosted on servers protected by SELinux.
> 
> Since SELinux is rapidly becoming the next "ultra-cool" security 
> infrastructure within the Linux community, a tasteful "button" that could be 
> pasted onto webpages would be a great marketing boon.  I, for one, would love 
> to brag on my church's opening webpage that their site is "Powered by Apache, 
> Protected by SELinux."  (The "Secured by ..." is already taken by OpenSSL.) 
> 
> An elegant, tasteful button modelled after the buttons at:
> 
>                      http://www.modssl.org/docs/buttons.html
> 
> could now be useful in promoting SELinux.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Bill Laut]

On Monday 05 April 2004 06:56 pm, Dean Anderson wrote:
> Probably you shouldn't say anything, lest some flaw in SELinux be
> exploited. Real tripwires are attached to mines and flares. Flares let you
> detect the enemy, mines kill them.  You never paint your tripwires bright
> orange.  Nor do you put a sign up that says "Post protected by flares and
> mines." with arrows pointing to the tripwires.
>
> SELinux merely gives you a chance to detect the cracker before they are
> successful.  If they know that going in, you've already lost one
> advantage.
>
> 		--Dean
>

Your argument is rational and correct--unless, of course, you *wanted* to bait 
some cracker into attacking your SELinux box.  What better way to taunt the 
crackers than to "paint the tripwires bright orange" by (*cough*) "acting 
like a lout" in bragging on your website that you're running SELinux?

Apart from that, I agree that you wouldn't normally want to advertise what 
security measures you are taking unless such braggadocio is serving a 
legitimate purpose.

--------------------------------------------------

>From "Kerry Thompson" <kerry@crypt.gen.nz>:

>
> Maybe it should be "Security Enhanced by SELinux" ? Although the term
> "enhanced" is a bit weak and could mean almost anything.
>
> My 2c worth.
>

In reviewing the NSA's "Privacy & Security Notice," it is stated that the NSA 
seal, name, and initials may not be used without permission.  Therefore I'm 
replacing the NSA seal with a non-infringing design.  For now, I'm tinkering 
with the idea of an impregnable wall that extends to infinity, with one 
solitary entrance, and standing overhead guarding the entrance is an eagle 
with outstretched wings, balefully watching all who try to enter.  Around the 
semi-circular border could be the the full name, "Security-Enhanced Linux."

I like the eagle motif because (1) it's a deadly bird of prey, and (2) it's an 
affectionate but non-infringing "wink and a nod" acknowledgement of where 
SELinux was birthed.

I'll see what I can whip up over Easter and will submit it for comment next 
week.

-----------------------------------------------------------

>From Joshua Brindle <jbrindle@snu.edu>:
>
> I'm no artist but I made a few buttons you guys could take a look at and 
> see if you like them or want something changed.. This was a pretty quick 
> job, each one changes as requests were made to change things so you can 
> see the evolutionary process.
>
> http://tachyon.snu.edu/selinux-buttons.html
>

I personally like your buttons because the cramped 102x47-pixel space doesn't 
allow for much embellishment.  As an American I prefer the red/white/blue 
background motif but I'm wondering if that will offend certain non-American 
sensitivites?  As an alternate, how about starting with the bottom button, 
and give it (1) a jet-black background, (2) white lettering, and (3) outline 
"SELinux" with a blurred DoD blue color (such as you can sample from the 
NSA's opening page)?


Bill


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Michael Pender]

On 4/5/04 6:57 PM, "Bill McCarty" <bmccarty@pt-net.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Hmm, not that I lack confidence in the security enhancements provided by
> SELinux. But, I think I'd more likely use an SELinux logo on systems that
> **aren't** protected by SELinux <g>. For systems that really do run
> SELinux, I'd prefer that would-be attackers be unaware of what they're up
> against. A dash of security through obscurity is sometimes useful, in my
> view, so long as it's not the primary defensive measure. Anyone who thinks
> otherwise is welcome to send me his or her ATM PIN code <g>.
> 
> But, I run honeypots adjacent to my production servers. So, I may be a bit
> more paranoid about my production servers than most folks <g>.

Probably not more paranoid than most folks running SE Linux. :)

Seriously though, whether or not it makes sense to identify that a specific
web site is running SE Linux, it *does* make sense to have a graphic mark or
series of marks that visually identifies SE Linux products as comporting
with a standard, such as a trademark or service mark.

In view of the fact that the skills of this group are more oriented toward
the techie side of the brain than the artistic side, I suggest we run a
contest to design the best logo.  We can offer the winner kudos as the
graphic designer.  That should suffice to get some talented artists
involved.  I'm willing to handle the administrative details to make it
happen.

Any thoughts?

Michael Pender



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RE: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Dan Thomsen]

> contest to design the best logo.  We can offer the winner kudos as the
> graphic designer.  That should suffice to get some talented artists
> involved.  I'm willing to handle the administrative details to make it
> happen.

Not having a lick of artistic talent, I'll just have to throw my idea
out there for one of the talented artists to run with. :-)

How about Tux the penguin wearing dark man in black type sunglasses and
an ear piece?  Sort of a secret service look.

---
Dan Thomsen
Tresys Technology    www.tresys.com
dthomsen@tresys.com  d.j.thomsen@ieee.org
cell: 612 968-5178   home: 612 789-4082





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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Joshua Brindle]

I added a few with a penguin in sunglasses and a black tie (the earpiece 
would be hard to see)

http://tachyon.snu.edu/selinux-buttons.html

let me know what you think.

Joshua Brindle

Dan Thomsen wrote:
>>contest to design the best logo.  We can offer the winner kudos as the
>>graphic designer.  That should suffice to get some talented artists
>>involved.  I'm willing to handle the administrative details to make it
>>happen.
> 
> 
> Not having a lick of artistic talent, I'll just have to throw my idea
> out there for one of the talented artists to run with. :-)
> 
> How about Tux the penguin wearing dark man in black type sunglasses and
> an ear piece?  Sort of a secret service look.
> 
> ---
> Dan Thomsen
> Tresys Technology    www.tresys.com
> dthomsen@tresys.com  d.j.thomsen@ieee.org
> cell: 612 968-5178   home: 612 789-4082
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Douglas Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1202 bytes --]

The eagle grasping Selinux and the Key :-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Thomsen" <dthomsen@tresys.com>
To: "'Michael Pender'" <michael.pender@nanochron.com>; "'Bill McCarty'"
<bmccarty@pt-net.net>; "'Untitled'" <selinux@tycho.nsa.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: Logo Artwork for SELinux?


> > contest to design the best logo.  We can offer the winner kudos as the
> > graphic designer.  That should suffice to get some talented artists
> > involved.  I'm willing to handle the administrative details to make it
> > happen.
>
> Not having a lick of artistic talent, I'll just have to throw my idea
> out there for one of the talented artists to run with. :-)
>
> How about Tux the penguin wearing dark man in black type sunglasses and
> an ear piece?  Sort of a secret service look.
>
> ---
> Dan Thomsen
> Tresys Technology    www.tresys.com
> dthomsen@tresys.com  d.j.thomsen@ieee.org
> cell: 612 968-5178   home: 612 789-4082
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> This message was distributed to subscribers of the selinux mailing list.
> If you no longer wish to subscribe, send mail to majordomo@tycho.nsa.gov
with
> the words "unsubscribe selinux" without quotes as the message.

[-- Attachment #2: selinux.jpg --]
[-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 25614 bytes --]

Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Douglas Williams]

I like the logos especially the 'penguin in black' ones.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joshua Brindle" <jbrindle@snu.edu>
To: "Dan Thomsen" <dthomsen@tresys.com>
Cc: "'Michael Pender'" <michael.pender@nanochron.com>; "'Bill McCarty'"
<bmccarty@pt-net.net>; "'Untitled'" <selinux@tycho.nsa.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?


> I added a few with a penguin in sunglasses and a black tie (the earpiece
> would be hard to see)
>
> http://tachyon.snu.edu/selinux-buttons.html
>
> let me know what you think.
>
> Joshua Brindle
>
> Dan Thomsen wrote:
> >>contest to design the best logo.  We can offer the winner kudos as the
> >>graphic designer.  That should suffice to get some talented artists
> >>involved.  I'm willing to handle the administrative details to make it
> >>happen.
> >
> >
> > Not having a lick of artistic talent, I'll just have to throw my idea
> > out there for one of the talented artists to run with. :-)
> >
> > How about Tux the penguin wearing dark man in black type sunglasses and
> > an ear piece?  Sort of a secret service look.
> >
> > ---
> > Dan Thomsen
> > Tresys Technology    www.tresys.com
> > dthomsen@tresys.com  d.j.thomsen@ieee.org
> > cell: 612 968-5178   home: 612 789-4082
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This message was distributed to subscribers of the selinux mailing list.
> > If you no longer wish to subscribe, send mail to majordomo@tycho.nsa.gov
with
> > the words "unsubscribe selinux" without quotes as the message.
> >
>
>
> --
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> If you no longer wish to subscribe, send mail to majordomo@tycho.nsa.gov
with
> the words "unsubscribe selinux" without quotes as the message.
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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Bill Laut]

On Tuesday 06 April 2004 10:51 am, Dan Thomsen wrote:
>
> Not having a lick of artistic talent, I'll just have to throw my idea
> out there for one of the talented artists to run with. :-)
>
> How about Tux the penguin wearing dark man in black type sunglasses and
> an ear piece?  Sort of a secret service look.
>

You mean, like "Crypto Cat?"  ;-}

              (http://www.nsa.gov/kids/images/image00004.gif)

Levity aside, I'm concerned, perhaps wrongly, that too many managers and/or 
decision-makers will make a gestalt-like value judgement of SELinux based 
upon the artwork.  In the same way that they shop for software at Office Max, 
they'll judge the efficacy of the software based upon the box.  Therefore, do 
you think Tux-as-intel-agent would cause naive decision-makers to take 
SELinux seriously?

OTOH, I, for one, do see the self-deprecating humor (not unlike Crypto Cat) in 
Tux-as-secret-agent and which would undoubtedly would play nicely on Tux's 
existing persona.

Perhaps I'm revealing more of my psyche than is appropriate (:-), but my 
thinking was that the initial artwork should practically scream "Hideous 
Wicked Evil Death" to all who dare step outside of the Policy's boundaries; 
and which is why I suggested the motif of an Eagle (or even a fire-breathing 
dragon) with an attitude guarding the sole entrance, glowering supremely at 
the approaching viewer with a look that says, "Make my day.  Fool."

I do agree that we should post a number of different artwork layups to see 
which ones work well for SELinux, because I'm doubting no one artwork will 
really capture SELinux in its entirety, and in all contexts.

> ---
> Dan Thomsen
> Tresys Technology    www.tresys.com
> dthomsen@tresys.com  d.j.thomsen@ieee.org
> cell: 612 968-5178   home: 612 789-4082

Bill


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Bill Laut]

The sunglasses were lost to me.  What might be more effective is if you were 
to switch to a jet-black background, with DoD blue outlining Tux and the logo 
"SELinux".  And maybe dress Tux in a trench coat and low-brimmed hat.

We are definitely limited by what can be communicated in a 102x47 space.

Bill

On Tuesday 06 April 2004 10:03 pm, Joshua Brindle wrote:
> I added a few with a penguin in sunglasses and a black tie (the earpiece
> would be hard to see)
>
> http://tachyon.snu.edu/selinux-buttons.html
>
> let me know what you think.
>
> Joshua Brindle
>
> Dan Thomsen wrote:
> >>contest to design the best logo.  We can offer the winner kudos as the
> >>graphic designer.  That should suffice to get some talented artists
> >>involved.  I'm willing to handle the administrative details to make it
> >>happen.
> >
> > Not having a lick of artistic talent, I'll just have to throw my idea
> > out there for one of the talented artists to run with. :-)
> >
> > How about Tux the penguin wearing dark man in black type sunglasses and
> > an ear piece?  Sort of a secret service look.
> >
> > ---
> > Dan Thomsen
> > Tresys Technology    www.tresys.com
> > dthomsen@tresys.com  d.j.thomsen@ieee.org
> > cell: 612 968-5178   home: 612 789-4082
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This message was distributed to subscribers of the selinux mailing list.
> > If you no longer wish to subscribe, send mail to majordomo@tycho.nsa.gov
> > with the words "unsubscribe selinux" without quotes as the message.


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Dale Amon]

On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 01:22:41AM -0400, Bill Laut wrote:
> Perhaps I'm revealing more of my psyche than is appropriate (:-), but my 
> thinking was that the initial artwork should practically scream "Hideous 
> Wicked Evil Death" to all who dare step outside of the Policy's boundaries; 
> and which is why I suggested the motif of an Eagle (or even a fire-breathing 
> dragon) with an attitude guarding the sole entrance, glowering supremely at 
> the approaching viewer with a look that says, "Make my day.  Fool."

Sort of like the Belfast LUG Tux? :-)

http://www.orkut.com/klein/16/8616.jpg

-- 
------------------------------------------------------
   Dale Amon     amon@islandone.org    +44-7802-188325
       International linux systems consultancy
     Hardware & software system design, security
    and networking, systems programming and Admin
	      "Have Laptop, Will Travel"
------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Michael Pender]

On 4/7/04 1:22 AM, "Bill Laut" <wlsel@verizon.net> wrote:

> Perhaps I'm revealing more of my psyche than is appropriate (:-), but my
> thinking was that the initial artwork should practically scream "Hideous
> Wicked Evil Death" to all who dare step outside of the Policy's boundaries;
> and which is why I suggested the motif of an Eagle (or even a fire-breathing
> dragon) with an attitude guarding the sole entrance, glowering supremely at
> the approaching viewer with a look that says, "Make my day.  Fool."

Tux with sunglasses doesn't say "enhanced security" to me.  But perhaps I'm
revealing more of my psyche than is appropriate by noting that the *visible*
(and thus avoidable) elements of a security system are more effective at
deterring overt direct action against the protected individual.  Rather, it
is the *less* visible elements of a security system that offer protection
against the more subtle threats.

To follow the agent-in-black analogy, the crazed attacker can identify the
agents and avoid them.  The most effective countermeasure to the attacker is
an alert agent who blends into the crowd and looks like everybody else,
until the agent acts.  The hypothetical attacker cannot avoid defenses that
he cannot identify.

Perhaps a more universal example is that a speeder can watch for marked
police cars and avoid speed traps; but vigilance is no defense against an
unmarked police car.

IMO the graphic selected should emphasize a *defensive* posture.  For
example, Tux with an armored helmet, shield and lance.  Or Tux with a big
Doberman on a leash.  Or possibly Tux in camouflage with a helmet.

Or maybe Tux with a fire-breathing dragon on a leash... :)

- Mike


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RE: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Dan Thomsen]

> IMO the graphic selected should emphasize a *defensive* posture.  For
> example, Tux with an armored helmet, shield and lance.  Or Tux with a
big
> Doberman on a leash.  Or possibly Tux in camouflage with a helmet.
> 
> Or maybe Tux with a fire-breathing dragon on a leash... :)

If you want a defensive look, how about considering a steel hexagon
field (like a beehive) with Tux looking out through one of the holes.
One of the main strengths of type enforcement is to keep things
separate.

I thought of using steel bars, but it would look like Tux was in jail.
The message "Security Enhanced Linux - the choice of convicted penguins"
is probably the wrong message.

I suggest if you don't want to tip your hand with a logo indicating your
security mechanisms use a windows logo.

I know it was my suggestion, but I like Joshua's penguin-in-black icon,
its subtle and it fun.

---
Dan Thomsen
Tresys Technology    www.tresys.com
dthomsen@tresys.com  d.j.thomsen@ieee.org
cell: 612 968-5178   home: 612 789-4082





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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Russell Coker]

I think that the Tresys logo is too big, more of a banner than a button.

A good logo could be made in different forms of different sizes, but I think 
that a button form is necessary.

One logo that was floating around was a penguin with eagle wings.  I think it 
had a simple merge of the NSA and Tux logos so would not be acceptable, but 
the same concept produced without plagiarism might work.

Joshua, I don't think that the Dutch flag as a background adds anything, I 
think that a plain background would work better.  The first logo (with the 
Yugoslavian flag background) has even less relation to SE Linux than the 
Dutch flag (at least four people who have been residents of the Netherlands 
have been involved with SE Linux development).  Below is a URL for pictures 
of flags of the world.

http://www.photius.com/flags/alphabetic_list.html

I don't think that a dragon is a good idea.  Puff the magic dragon in front of 
a Dutch flag would really give the wrong message.

-- 
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http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Matthew J. Fanto]

> Joshua, I don't think that the Dutch flag as a background adds anything, I 
> think that a plain background would work better.  The first logo (with the 
> Yugoslavian flag background) has even less relation to SE Linux than the 
> Dutch flag (at least four people who have been residents of the Netherlands 
> have been involved with SE Linux development).  Below is a URL for pictures 
> of flags of the world.

I also think a button for is necessary. I don't think Joshua was going
for the dutch flag when he designed it, but rather the colors of the US
(the red, white and blue).  A flag of the US would not work in the
background. I'm don't know how much those of you not living in the US
would like such a color scheme though. 

-Matthew J. Fanto


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Dale Amon]

On Sat, Apr 10, 2004 at 12:08:46PM -0400, Matthew J. Fanto wrote:
> I also think a button for is necessary. I don't think Joshua was going
> for the dutch flag when he designed it, but rather the colors of the US
> (the red, white and blue).  A flag of the US would not work in the
> background. I'm don't know how much those of you not living in the US
> would like such a color scheme though. 

Well, we're not slow to give blame and the NSA is the 
key player behind it, so credit where credit is due.
Fair enough to let people know they do some good work
as well as the things we don't like ;-)

Let it be red, white and blue with a taloned penguin
say I!

-- 
------------------------------------------------------
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       International linux systems consultancy
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    and networking, systems programming and Admin
	      "Have Laptop, Will Travel"
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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Russell Coker]

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 02:08, "Matthew J. Fanto" <mattjf@uncompiled.com> wrote:
> I also think a button for is necessary. I don't think Joshua was going
> for the dutch flag when he designed it, but rather the colors of the US
> (the red, white and blue).  A flag of the US would not work in the
> background. I'm don't know how much those of you not living in the US
> would like such a color scheme though.

People who live in France, the Netherlands, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, 
and many other countries are unlikely to complain because they also have the 
same colors on their flag.

http://www.photius.com/flags/alphabetic_list.html

>From a quick scan of the flags of the world web page (URL above) it seems that 
red, white, and blue is one of the most common combinations of colors for a 
national flag, and may even be THE most common combination.

I suspect that the color choice of the US flag was inspired by the French 
flag, but according to the history sites I've checked it seems that the 
origin of the design was lost.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/    Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Dean Anderson]

I would suggest a United Nations Blue as the background color.

White, Red, and Blue have common symbolisms, which typically reflect 
tears, blood, and hope for the future (I think).

SELinux is probably fairly described as an international collaborative
work on common security. So, it seems to me that U.N. Light Blue is the
symbolic color of international security. 

My 2 cents.

		--Dean

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, Dale Amon wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 10, 2004 at 12:08:46PM -0400, Matthew J. Fanto wrote:
> > I also think a button for is necessary. I don't think Joshua was going
> > for the dutch flag when he designed it, but rather the colors of the US
> > (the red, white and blue).  A flag of the US would not work in the
> > background. I'm don't know how much those of you not living in the US
> > would like such a color scheme though. 
> 
> Well, we're not slow to give blame and the NSA is the 
> key player behind it, so credit where credit is due.
> Fair enough to let people know they do some good work
> as well as the things we don't like ;-)
> 
> Let it be red, white and blue with a taloned penguin
> say I!
> 
> 

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Elvedin Trnjanin]

I suggest we avoid any preference to a country or orginization (US or UN)
and just perhaps go with some cryptography related thing, random numbers
(1s, 0s) in the background or something of that sort.

Then again, everyone is free to use whatever button or banner they wish, I
think it'll take quite a bit more time before everyone is fine with an
official logo for SELinux.

> I would suggest a United Nations Blue as the background color.
>
> White, Red, and Blue have common symbolisms, which typically reflect
> tears, blood, and hope for the future (I think).
>
> SELinux is probably fairly described as an international collaborative
> work on common security. So, it seems to me that U.N. Light Blue is the
> symbolic color of international security.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> 		--Dean
>
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, Dale Amon wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Apr 10, 2004 at 12:08:46PM -0400, Matthew J. Fanto wrote:
>> > I also think a button for is necessary. I don't think Joshua was going
>> > for the dutch flag when he designed it, but rather the colors of the
>> US
>> > (the red, white and blue).  A flag of the US would not work in the
>> > background. I'm don't know how much those of you not living in the US
>> > would like such a color scheme though.
>>
>> Well, we're not slow to give blame and the NSA is the
>> key player behind it, so credit where credit is due.
>> Fair enough to let people know they do some good work
>> as well as the things we don't like ;-)
>>
>> Let it be red, white and blue with a taloned penguin
>> say I!
>>
>>
>
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- ODS.org Team

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Dale Amon]

On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 09:57:36AM -0500, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
> I suggest we avoid any preference to a country or orginization (US or UN)
> and just perhaps go with some cryptography related thing, random numbers
> (1s, 0s) in the background or something of that sort.

Although keep in mind that although it is open source, 
they paid for it. There have been many good contributions
from people all over, but it doesn't change the fact that
the lions share of the work was done by persons working
on an NSA research project. They get the credit for
Selinux, not some amorphous 'us'.

I think the logo should reflect who paid... If there
were to be votes on this, Smalley, Holm, etc al should
get a hundred each, a few people like Russell and Colin 
deserve a couple votes... I and some others might *barely*
deserve one each.

More practically though, I'd suggest the PI (Smalley) 
has the final say. 

-- 
------------------------------------------------------
   Dale Amon     amon@islandone.org    +44-7802-188325
       International linux systems consultancy
     Hardware & software system design, security
    and networking, systems programming and Admin
	      "Have Laptop, Will Travel"
------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Elvedin Trnjanin]

I completely agree with you on that but I doubt many of the forgein
developers and users would like to display that for whatever reason they
wish. Cryptography represents the NSA though or perhaps include something
of a historical significance to the NSA?

> On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 09:57:36AM -0500, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
>> I suggest we avoid any preference to a country or orginization (US or
>> UN)
>> and just perhaps go with some cryptography related thing, random numbers
>> (1s, 0s) in the background or something of that sort.
>
> Although keep in mind that although it is open source,
> they paid for it. There have been many good contributions
> from people all over, but it doesn't change the fact that
> the lions share of the work was done by persons working
> on an NSA research project. They get the credit for
> Selinux, not some amorphous 'us'.
>
> I think the logo should reflect who paid... If there
> were to be votes on this, Smalley, Holm, etc al should
> get a hundred each, a few people like Russell and Colin
> deserve a couple votes... I and some others might *barely*
> deserve one each.
>
> More practically though, I'd suggest the PI (Smalley)
> has the final say.
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------
>    Dale Amon     amon@islandone.org    +44-7802-188325
>        International linux systems consultancy
>      Hardware & software system design, security
>     and networking, systems programming and Admin
> 	      "Have Laptop, Will Travel"
> ------------------------------------------------------
>


-- 
Elvedin Trnjanin
elvedin@ods.org
http://www.ods.org
- ODS.org Team

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Stephen Smalley]

On Mon, 2004-04-12 at 11:14, Dale Amon wrote:
> Although keep in mind that although it is open source, 
> they paid for it. There have been many good contributions
> from people all over, but it doesn't change the fact that
> the lions share of the work was done by persons working
> on an NSA research project. They get the credit for
> Selinux, not some amorphous 'us'.
> 
> I think the logo should reflect who paid... If there
> were to be votes on this, Smalley, Holm, etc al should
> get a hundred each, a few people like Russell and Colin 
> deserve a couple votes... I and some others might *barely*
> deserve one each.
> 
> More practically though, I'd suggest the PI (Smalley) 
> has the final say. 

Thanks for the thought, but I have absolutely no interest in helping to
design a logo for SELinux, nor do I particularly care whether SELinux
ever has a logo.  Let's leave the marketing to the marketers, and focus
on improving the code...

-- 
Stephen Smalley <sds@epoch.ncsc.mil>
National Security Agency


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Russell Coker]

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 01:14, Dale Amon <amon@vnl.com> wrote:
> I think the logo should reflect who paid... If there
> were to be votes on this, Smalley, Holm, etc al should
> get a hundred each, a few people like Russell and Colin
> deserve a couple votes... I and some others might *barely*
> deserve one each.

I have not seen any indication that the NSA people plan to embrace any logo 
that we might devise.

I suspect that the way this will work out is that we can devise any logo we 
wish as long as it respects copyright and trademark law.  I don't expect the 
NSA people to be interested in voting, I'm sure that if they have a 
particular dislike for one of the options that they will be able to provide a 
logical reason for us to not vote for it.

So far Joshua's logo candidates seem the best, but I don't expect my vote to 
carry any more weight than anyone else's.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/    Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[todd glassey]

How about something like a faded or screened stream of 1's and 0's with the
armored penguin emblazoned over it? Have you seen the NSA's new Website? ...

Todd

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dale Amon" <amon@vnl.com>
To: "Elvedin Trnjanin" <elvedin@ods.org>
Cc: "Dean Anderson" <dean@av8.com>; "Dale Amon" <amon@vnl.com>; "Matthew J.
Fanto" <mattjf@uncompiled.com>; <russell@coker.com.au>; "SELinux Mailing
List" <selinux@tycho.nsa.gov>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?


> On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 09:57:36AM -0500, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
> > I suggest we avoid any preference to a country or orginization (US or
UN)
> > and just perhaps go with some cryptography related thing, random numbers
> > (1s, 0s) in the background or something of that sort.
>
> Although keep in mind that although it is open source,
> they paid for it. There have been many good contributions
> from people all over, but it doesn't change the fact that
> the lions share of the work was done by persons working
> on an NSA research project. They get the credit for
> Selinux, not some amorphous 'us'.
>
> I think the logo should reflect who paid... If there
> were to be votes on this, Smalley, Holm, etc al should
> get a hundred each, a few people like Russell and Colin
> deserve a couple votes... I and some others might *barely*
> deserve one each.
>
> More practically though, I'd suggest the PI (Smalley)
> has the final say.
>
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------
>    Dale Amon     amon@islandone.org    +44-7802-188325
>        International linux systems consultancy
>      Hardware & software system design, security
>     and networking, systems programming and Admin
>       "Have Laptop, Will Travel"
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> This message was distributed to subscribers of the selinux mailing list.
> If you no longer wish to subscribe, send mail to majordomo@tycho.nsa.gov
with
> the words "unsubscribe selinux" without quotes as the message.


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Tom Mitchell]

On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 10:18:59AM -0500, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
> I completely agree with you on that but I doubt many of the forgein
> developers and users would like....
> > On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 09:57:36AM -0500, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
> >> I suggest we avoid any preference to a country or orginization...

Well the good guys once wore white hats.

A more general solution might be to have a "haberdashery" dir that is
full of hats and other contributed head coverings, buttons and what
not.  With digital methods it should be possible to take any base
image of a hat on a contrasting background and reduce it to logos,
icons, buttons and what ever.


-- 
	T o m  M i t c h e l l 
	/dev/null the ultimate in secure storage.

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Michael Pender]

On 4/12/04 4:11 PM, "todd glassey" <todd.glassey@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> How about something like a faded or screened stream of 1's and 0's with the
> armored penguin emblazoned over it? Have you seen the NSA's new Website? ...
> 
> Todd

Much like the abyss, when you look at the NSA's web site it looks back at
you. :)

- Mike


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[todd glassey]

Hey as a new member of the list I thought I would pay some dues here, and I
called a friend who is a instructor at the SF Art Institute. He has a
project that will come due from his students next week and we are asking a
couple of them to whip up some ideas for this effort as well... Should have
them by mid-week next week.

Todd

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Pender" <michael.pender@nanochron.com>
To: "todd glassey" <todd.glassey@worldnet.att.net>; "Dale Amon"
<amon@vnl.com>; "Elvedin Trnjanin" <elvedin@ods.org>
Cc: "Dean Anderson" <dean@av8.com>; "Matthew J. Fanto"
<mattjf@uncompiled.com>; <russell@coker.com.au>; "Untitled"
<selinux@tycho.nsa.gov>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?


> On 4/12/04 4:11 PM, "todd glassey" <todd.glassey@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > How about something like a faded or screened stream of 1's and 0's with
the
> > armored penguin emblazoned over it? Have you seen the NSA's new Website?
...
> >
> > Todd
>
> Much like the abyss, when you look at the NSA's web site it looks back at
> you. :)
>
> - Mike
>
>
> --
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RE: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Dowd, Alan S]

Three cheers for M. Smalley!

This whole thread reminds me of a scene near the end of the TV broadcast
version of "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy." Our protagonists are
stranded on Neolithic Earth with a spaceship (Galgafringian Arkship B) full
of "middlemen," among them marketing executives. The marketing executives
have formed a committee to reinvent the wheel. Their major concern is "What
color should it be?" We're all demonstrating our outstanding qualifications
for Arkship B here.

Perhaps we should settle for a penguin in a bathtub, playing with a rubber
duck, and get back to security-enhanced Linux.

	Al D.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-selinux@tycho.nsa.gov [mailto:owner-selinux@tycho.nsa.gov] On
Behalf Of Stephen Smalley
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:35 AM
To: Dale Amon
Cc: Elvedin Trnjanin; Dean Anderson; Matthew J. Fanto; Russell Coker;
SELinux Mailing List
Subject: Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?
[...snip...]

Thanks for the thought, but I have absolutely no interest in helping to
design a logo for SELinux, nor do I particularly care whether SELinux
ever has a logo.  Let's leave the marketing to the marketers, and focus
on improving the code...

-- 
Stephen Smalley <sds@epoch.ncsc.mil>
National Security Agency


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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Tom]

On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 09:57:36AM -0500, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
> I suggest we avoid any preference to a country or orginization (US or UN)
> and just perhaps go with some cryptography related thing, random numbers
> (1s, 0s) in the background or something of that sort.

How about using the proposed light-blue UN colour for the random number
strings (why random? let's give the geeks something to do and have it
actually mean something).

Add Tux with chainmail shirt.

Plus a simple "SELinux" as text.


I'll see what I can whip up. I'm by far no graphics dude, but I know a
little about gimp.


-- 
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pub  1024D/2D7A04F5 2002-05-16 Tom Vogt <tom@lemuria.org>
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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Tom]

On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 10:57:44AM -0400, Dowd, Alan S wrote:
> This whole thread reminds me of a scene near the end of the TV broadcast
> version of "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy." Our protagonists are
> stranded on Neolithic Earth with a spaceship (Galgafringian Arkship B) full
> of "middlemen," among them marketing executives. The marketing executives
> have formed a committee to reinvent the wheel. Their major concern is "What
> color should it be?" We're all demonstrating our outstanding qualifications
> for Arkship B here.

:)

Then again, when you look at code all day, it is very refreshing to do
some visual creative work for a change.



-- 
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pub  1024D/2D7A04F5 2002-05-16 Tom Vogt <tom@lemuria.org>
     Key fingerprint = C731 64D1 4BCF 4C20 48A4  29B2 BF01 9FA1 2D7A 04F5

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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[todd glassey]

Tom - you are forgetting - this is not a logo for the team - its a visual
moniker for tagging this effort "for the rest of the world"...

Todd

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom" <tom@lemuria.org>
To: "'SELinux'" <SELinux@tycho.nsa.gov>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?


> On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 10:57:44AM -0400, Dowd, Alan S wrote:
> > This whole thread reminds me of a scene near the end of the TV broadcast
> > version of "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy." Our protagonists are
> > stranded on Neolithic Earth with a spaceship (Galgafringian Arkship B)
full
> > of "middlemen," among them marketing executives. The marketing
executives
> > have formed a committee to reinvent the wheel. Their major concern is
"What
> > color should it be?" We're all demonstrating our outstanding
qualifications
> > for Arkship B here.
>
> :)
>
> Then again, when you look at code all day, it is very refreshing to do
> some visual creative work for a change.
>
>
>
> -- 
> PGP/GPG key: http://web.lemuria.org/pubkey.html
> pub  1024D/2D7A04F5 2002-05-16 Tom Vogt <tom@lemuria.org>
>      Key fingerprint = C731 64D1 4BCF 4C20 48A4  29B2 BF01 9FA1 2D7A 04F5
>
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Re: Logo Artwork for SELinux?

[Russell Coker]

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:47, Michael Pender <michael.pender@nanochron.com> 
wrote:
> IMO, SE-Linux is not going to be adopted based on technical superiority or
> endorsement by the NSA if installing and using it too overwhelming.  In
> fact, I think the association with the NSA is detrimental because people
> think the NSA puts back doors in their software.  I really don't think this
> is news to anyone who works in computer security.

Surely if someone at the NSA or some similar agency wanted to put a back-door 
in Linux then what they would do is get a regular account with an ISP and 
just start sending in kernel patches.  After their identity became known for 
patching code (and thus receiving less checks before being included) they 
could start slipping in mistakes in the code.

People just have to ask themselves; is it better to trust NSA code that gets 
checked by lots of people or some random kernel code that gets almost no 
review?

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/    Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page


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