From: tytso@mit.edu
To: Evgeniy Polyakov <zbr@ioremap.net>
Cc: Peter Grandi <pg_jf2@jf2.for.sabi.co.UK>,
xfs@oss.sgi.com, reiserfs-devel@vger.kernel.org,
linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org,
jfs-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net,
ext-users <ext3-users@redhat.com>,
linux-nilfs@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [Jfs-discussion] benchmark results
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:11:46 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20091225161146.GC32757@thunk.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20091224234631.GA1028@ioremap.net>
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 02:46:31AM +0300, Evgeniy Polyakov wrote:
> > [1] http://samba.org/ftp/tridge/dbench/README
>
> Was not able to resist to write a small notice, what no matter what, but
> whatever benchmark is running, it _does_ show system behaviour in one
> or another condition. And when system behaves rather badly, it is quite
> a common comment, that benchmark was useless. But it did show that
> system has a problem, even if rarely triggered one :)
If people are using benchmarks to improve file system, and a benchmark
shows a problem, then trying to remedy the performance issue is a good
thing to do, of course. Sometimes, though the case which is
demonstrated by a poor benchmark is an extremely rare corner case that
doesn't accurately reflect common real-life workloads --- and if
addressing it results in a tradeoff which degrades much more common
real-life situations, then that would be a bad thing.
In situations where benchmarks are used competitively, it's rare that
it's actually a *problem*. Instead it's much more common that a
developer is trying to prove that their file system is *better* to
gullible users who think that a single one-dimentional number is
enough for them to chose file system X over file system Y.
For example, if I wanted to play that game and tell people that ext4
is better, I'd might pick this graph:
http://btrfs.boxacle.net/repository/single-disk/2.6.29-rc2/2.6.29-rc2/2.6.29-rc2_Mail_server_simulation._num_threads=32.html
On the other hand, this one shows ext4 as the worst compared to all
other file systems:
http://btrfs.boxacle.net/repository/single-disk/2.6.29-rc2/2.6.29-rc2/2.6.29-rc2_Large_file_random_writes_odirect._num_threads=8.html
Benchmarking, like statistics, can be extremely deceptive, and if
people do things like carefully order a tar file so the files are
optimal for a file system, it's fair to ask whether that's a common
thing for people to be doing (either unpacking tarballs or unpacking
tarballs whose files have been carefully ordered for a particular file
systems). When it's the only number used by a file system developer
when trying to convince users they should use their file system, at
least in my humble opinion it becomes murderously dishonest.
- Ted
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: tytso@mit.edu
To: Evgeniy Polyakov <zbr@ioremap.net>
Cc: jfs-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net,
linux-nilfs@vger.kernel.org, xfs@oss.sgi.com,
reiserfs-devel@vger.kernel.org,
Peter Grandi <pg_jf2@jf2.for.sabi.co.UK>,
ext-users <ext3-users@redhat.com>,
linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [Jfs-discussion] benchmark results
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:11:46 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20091225161146.GC32757@thunk.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20091224234631.GA1028@ioremap.net>
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 02:46:31AM +0300, Evgeniy Polyakov wrote:
> > [1] http://samba.org/ftp/tridge/dbench/README
>
> Was not able to resist to write a small notice, what no matter what, but
> whatever benchmark is running, it _does_ show system behaviour in one
> or another condition. And when system behaves rather badly, it is quite
> a common comment, that benchmark was useless. But it did show that
> system has a problem, even if rarely triggered one :)
If people are using benchmarks to improve file system, and a benchmark
shows a problem, then trying to remedy the performance issue is a good
thing to do, of course. Sometimes, though the case which is
demonstrated by a poor benchmark is an extremely rare corner case that
doesn't accurately reflect common real-life workloads --- and if
addressing it results in a tradeoff which degrades much more common
real-life situations, then that would be a bad thing.
In situations where benchmarks are used competitively, it's rare that
it's actually a *problem*. Instead it's much more common that a
developer is trying to prove that their file system is *better* to
gullible users who think that a single one-dimentional number is
enough for them to chose file system X over file system Y.
For example, if I wanted to play that game and tell people that ext4
is better, I'd might pick this graph:
http://btrfs.boxacle.net/repository/single-disk/2.6.29-rc2/2.6.29-rc2/2.6.29-rc2_Mail_server_simulation._num_threads=32.html
On the other hand, this one shows ext4 as the worst compared to all
other file systems:
http://btrfs.boxacle.net/repository/single-disk/2.6.29-rc2/2.6.29-rc2/2.6.29-rc2_Large_file_random_writes_odirect._num_threads=8.html
Benchmarking, like statistics, can be extremely deceptive, and if
people do things like carefully order a tar file so the files are
optimal for a file system, it's fair to ask whether that's a common
thing for people to be doing (either unpacking tarballs or unpacking
tarballs whose files have been carefully ordered for a particular file
systems). When it's the only number used by a file system developer
when trying to convince users they should use their file system, at
least in my humble opinion it becomes murderously dishonest.
- Ted
_______________________________________________
xfs mailing list
xfs@oss.sgi.com
http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-12-25 16:11 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 73+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-12-24 10:31 benchmark results Christian Kujau
2009-12-24 10:31 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-24 12:06 ` Ryusuke Konishi
2009-12-24 12:06 ` Ryusuke Konishi
[not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.01.0912240415450.3483@bogon.housecafe.de>
[not found] ` <4B336289.3010608@nerdbynature.de>
[not found] ` <4B336289.3010608-AanptEQQ3TL9uQeqpI+JUg@public.gmane.org>
2009-12-24 15:35 ` Ryusuke Konishi
2009-12-24 12:59 ` Teran McKinney
2009-12-24 12:59 ` Teran McKinney
2009-12-24 12:59 ` Teran McKinney
2009-12-24 20:01 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-24 13:05 ` Peter Grandi
2009-12-24 13:05 ` [Jfs-discussion] " Peter Grandi
2009-12-24 21:27 ` tytso
2009-12-24 21:27 ` tytso
2009-12-24 23:46 ` Evgeniy Polyakov
2009-12-24 23:46 ` Evgeniy Polyakov
2009-12-25 16:11 ` tytso [this message]
2009-12-25 16:11 ` tytso
2010-01-04 16:27 ` Chris Mason
2010-01-04 16:27 ` Chris Mason
2010-01-04 18:57 ` Michael Rubin
2010-01-04 18:57 ` Michael Rubin
2010-01-04 18:57 ` Michael Rubin
2010-01-04 18:57 ` Michael Rubin
2010-01-05 0:41 ` Dave Chinner
2010-01-05 0:41 ` Dave Chinner
2010-01-05 0:41 ` Dave Chinner
2010-01-05 15:31 ` Steven Pratt
2010-01-05 15:31 ` Steven Pratt
2009-12-25 1:52 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-25 1:52 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-25 13:19 ` lakshmi pathi
2009-12-25 13:19 ` lakshmi pathi
2009-12-25 16:14 ` tytso
2009-12-25 16:14 ` tytso
2009-12-25 16:22 ` Larry McVoy
2009-12-25 16:33 ` tytso
2009-12-25 16:33 ` tytso
2009-12-25 16:33 ` tytso
2009-12-25 16:33 ` tytso
2009-12-25 18:56 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-25 18:56 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-25 19:32 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-25 19:32 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-25 18:51 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-25 18:51 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-26 16:00 ` jim owens
2009-12-26 16:00 ` jim owens
2009-12-26 19:06 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-26 19:06 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-27 19:50 ` jim owens
2009-12-27 19:50 ` jim owens
2009-12-27 21:55 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-27 21:55 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-27 22:33 ` tytso
2009-12-27 22:33 ` tytso
2009-12-28 1:24 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-28 1:24 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-28 14:08 ` Larry McVoy
2009-12-28 14:08 ` Larry McVoy
2010-01-15 21:42 ` Edward Shishkin
2010-01-15 21:42 ` Edward Shishkin
2010-01-15 21:42 ` Edward Shishkin
2010-01-15 21:42 ` Edward Shishkin
2009-12-26 19:19 ` tytso
2009-12-26 19:19 ` tytso
2010-01-11 1:03 ` Casey Allen Shobe
2010-01-11 1:32 ` Larry McVoy
2010-01-11 1:32 ` Larry McVoy
2009-12-25 18:42 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-25 18:42 ` Christian Kujau
2009-12-29 11:27 ` Emmanuel Florac
2009-12-29 11:27 ` Emmanuel Florac
2009-12-29 11:27 ` Emmanuel Florac
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