OSS vs ALSA war :-)

OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Peter Zubaj]

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=7976



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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[GCZ]

Peter Zubaj wrote:
> http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=7976

Well, right after I read the article, I downloaded 4Front's OSS drivers, 
and my Terratec Aureon 5.1 Sky finally worked as expected. Now I can 
listen to PCM, line-in and aux at the same time, play Quake 3 with 
sound, etc...

I'm waiting for the trial period to end, then I'll probably will buy 
myself a license. $30 is a little bit expensive for a driver (it should 
be provided for free by Terratec), but making my sound card work is 
worth it.

Once again, I'm back to OSS.


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, GCZ wrote:

> Peter Zubaj wrote:
> > http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=7976
> 
> Well, right after I read the article, I downloaded 4Front's OSS drivers, 
> and my Terratec Aureon 5.1 Sky finally worked as expected. Now I can 
> listen to PCM, line-in and aux at the same time, play Quake 3 with 
> sound, etc...
> 
> I'm waiting for the trial period to end, then I'll probably will buy 
> myself a license. $30 is a little bit expensive for a driver (it should 
> be provided for free by Terratec), but making my sound card work is 
> worth it.

It would be better to debug the driver.

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@suse.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project, SUSE Labs


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[GCZ]

Jaroslav Kysela wrote:

> Yes, but a ssh debugging root access and your ears might be sufficient 
> for Takashi. I think that Takashi has a good contact with Terratec (GCZ 
> has Terratec Aureon 5.1 Sky). Please, wait until Takashi is back from 
> vacation (next week).

I was told that more documentation from Terratec was needed, but if I 
can help by providing a shell account and my feedback, I'll be glad to.

> Also, which driver you tried? 1.0.6rc2?

1.0.5a.


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
GCZ hat gesagt: // GCZ wrote:

> Once again, I'm back to OSS.

Bye. 

I stay with open source software, because this libre thing is
important to me.

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                               _ ______footils.org__


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[GCZ]

Frank Barknecht wrote:

> I stay with open source software, because this libre thing is
> important to me.

Oh. You don't say. Well, this "libre thing" is important to me too (I'm 
not running linux on all of my three machines just because I don't like 
Windows), but how exactly am I supporting Free Software just by running 
something that doesn't work for me?

Jaroslav implied that I could, actually, actively help by providing a 
shell account and my feedback, which I will do. I didn't know that would 
actually help. But otherwise, when there's no Free Software alternative 
that works in a particular situation, I don't see any problem with 
buying closed-source software.

There's no way to play 3D games with the "nv" driver for my Nvidia 
GeForce FX5900. Should I refrain from playing UT2004 just because 
Nvidia's drivers, which work beautifully, are closed-source? Should I 
refrain from playing Quake 3 because ALSA doesn't work with it?


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Lee Revell]

On Tue, 2004-08-10 at 11:44, GCZ wrote:

> There's no way to play 3D games with the "nv" driver for my Nvidia 
> GeForce FX5900. Should I refrain from playing UT2004 just because 
> Nvidia's drivers, which work beautifully, are closed-source? Should I 
> refrain from playing Quake 3 because ALSA doesn't work with it?

No, this is why ALSA provides OSS emulation, so every legacy app doesn't
have to be recoded.  For gaming you should use the closed-source Nvidia
drivers and ALSA's OSS emulation.  I don't think anyone can make a
serious argument that Nvidia should open source their drivers, they
shouldn't have to disclose their IP just to have their devices work in
Linux, and you know what you are getting when you buy the hardware.

Lee



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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[GCZ]

Lee Revell wrote:

> No, this is why ALSA provides OSS emulation, so every legacy app doesn't
> have to be recoded.  For gaming you should use the closed-source Nvidia
> drivers and ALSA's OSS emulation.  I don't think anyone can make a

Which doesn't work on my setup. I posted a message on alsa-user I think, 
and I don't remember exactly what error message I got, but I think it 
had something to do with mmap. Nobody replied to my message. At one 
point, going through so many documents, ML posts, Q&A's, trial and error 
steps just to make it work isn't worth it, if no improvement comes out 
of it. If Takashi is indeed interested in my feedback, at least it will 
be productive.

By the way, while drivers themselves need improvements in some cases 
(such as mine), I cannot stress enough that the user experience must be 
improved as well. The configuration file is cryptic to me - and that's 
just one example.

> serious argument that Nvidia should open source their drivers, they
> shouldn't have to disclose their IP just to have their devices work in
> Linux, and you know what you are getting when you buy the hardware.

I'm glad to read that. Let's not get into zealotry.


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Lee Revell]

On Tue, 2004-08-10 at 13:07, GCZ wrote:
> Lee Revell wrote:
> 
> > No, this is why ALSA provides OSS emulation, so every legacy app doesn't
> > have to be recoded.  For gaming you should use the closed-source Nvidia
> > drivers and ALSA's OSS emulation.  I don't think anyone can make a
> 
> Which doesn't work on my setup. I posted a message on alsa-user I think, 
> and I don't remember exactly what error message I got, but I think it 
> had something to do with mmap. Nobody replied to my message. At one 
> point, going through so many documents, ML posts, Q&A's, trial and error 
> steps just to make it work isn't worth it, if no improvement comes out 
> of it. If Takashi is indeed interested in my feedback, at least it will 
> be productive.
> 

OK, I will check the archives.  The ALSA guys are very busy, you might
have to make a little noise or even be a bit inflammatory to get your
bug addressed.  For example, track down the general area of the bug
using some printk's, then post a completely botched fix to the mailing
list.  Preferably something that compiles and looks like it's working. 
This will often get you a hint as to what the real problem is, then
maybe someone less skilled can fix it. ;-)  I have fixed a few bugs in
the driver for my soundcard, Jaroslav and Takashi will help you, and
tell you if you are completely off base.  I encourage you to ask your
favorite distro vendor to hire some ALSA developers, because all but two
or three are working for free.

> I'm glad to read that. Let's not get into zealotry.
> 

Sorry, should have left that off...

Lee




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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[William]

Lee Revell wrote:
> GCZ wrote:
>> Should I refrain from playing UT2004 just because Nvidia's drivers,
>> which work beautifully, are closed-source? Should I refrain from
>> playing Quake 3 because ALSA doesn't work with it?
> 
> No, this is why ALSA provides OSS emulation, so every legacy app doesn't
> have to be recoded.

One big problem is that some parts of ALSA's OSS emulation have been buggy
for a long time, especially its /dev/sequencer emulation:
https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=28
[First reported August 2002, present since before Alsa 0.9.0]

William


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Lee Revell]

On Tue, 2004-08-10 at 13:16, William wrote:
> Lee Revell wrote:
> > GCZ wrote:
> >> Should I refrain from playing UT2004 just because Nvidia's drivers,
> >> which work beautifully, are closed-source? Should I refrain from
> >> playing Quake 3 because ALSA doesn't work with it?
> > 
> > No, this is why ALSA provides OSS emulation, so every legacy app doesn't
> > have to be recoded.
> 
> One big problem is that some parts of ALSA's OSS emulation have been buggy
> for a long time, especially its /dev/sequencer emulation:
> https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=28
> [First reported August 2002, present since before Alsa 0.9.0]
> 

Heh, the ALSA bug tracker is hosed right now.  It didn't seem to
remember my login, then when I went to sign up for a new account I got:

ALSA bugtracking system
Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by
(output started at /srv/www/mantisbt-0.18.3/core/html_api.php:139) in
/srv/www/mantisbt-0.18.3/core/gpc_api.php on line 220

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by
(output started at /srv/www/mantisbt-0.18.3/core/html_api.php:139) in
/srv/www/mantisbt-0.18.3/core/print_api.php on line 37

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by
(output started at /srv/www/mantisbt-0.18.3/core/html_api.php:139) in
/srv/www/mantisbt-0.18.3/core/print_api.php on line 39

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by
(output started at /srv/www/mantisbt-0.18.3/core/html_api.php:139) in
/srv/www/mantisbt-0.18.3/core/print_api.php on line 44

If you can access the text of that bug can you send it to me?

Lee




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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Thierry Vignaud]

William <walsac3@liam2.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > > Should I refrain from playing UT2004 just because Nvidia's
> > > drivers, which work beautifully, are closed-source? Should I
> > > refrain from playing Quake 3 because ALSA doesn't work with it?
> > 
> > No, this is why ALSA provides OSS emulation, so every legacy app
> > doesn't have to be recoded.
> 
> One big problem is that some parts of ALSA's OSS emulation have been
> buggy for a long time, especially its /dev/sequencer emulation:
> https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=28
> [First reported August 2002, present since before Alsa 0.9.0]

the odds that quake3 uses /dev/sequencer are not that high :-)



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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Clemens Ladisch]

William wrote:
> One big problem is that some parts of ALSA's OSS emulation have been buggy
> for a long time, especially its /dev/sequencer emulation:
> https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=28

Please check if the patch below helps.


HTH
Clemens

-- 
diff -ur rosegarden-2.1pl4/mapper/src/Mapper_OSS.c rosegarden-2.1pl4/mapper/src/Mapper_OSS.c
--- rosegarden-2.1pl4/mapper/src/Mapper_OSS.c	Mon Jul  2 13:54:58 2001
+++ rosegarden-2.1pl4/mapper/src/Mapper_OSS.c	Fri Aug 13 13:27:25 2004
@@ -957,6 +957,7 @@
     static byte LastStatus   = 0x90;
     static byte NumOperands  = 0;
     static byte OperandsLeft = 0;
+    static int LastTime = 0;

     unsigned char InBytes[4];
     int out, pass;
@@ -977,8 +978,8 @@
                /* for the moment we'll just start recording from
                   a normalised "zero" */

-                ReturnEvent->Time = ((InBytes[3]<<16)|(InBytes[2]<<8)|
-                                      InBytes[1]);
+                LastTime = ((InBytes[3]<<16)|(InBytes[2]<<8)|
+                            InBytes[1]);

                 break;

@@ -998,8 +999,8 @@
                         NumOperands = 0; /* no timing info */
                         fprintf(stderr, "SYSTEM MESSAGE\n");
                     }
-                    else if (MessageType(InBytes[1]) == MIDI_CTRL_CHANGE ||
-                               MessageType(InBytes[1]) == MIDI_PROG_CHANGE)
+                    else if (MessageType(InBytes[1]) == MIDI_PROG_CHANGE ||
+                             MessageType(InBytes[1]) == MIDI_CHNL_AFTERTOUCH)
                     {
                         NumOperands = 1;
                     }
@@ -1040,6 +1041,8 @@
                         {
                             OperandsLeft = 2;
                         }
+
+                        ReturnEvent->Time = LastTime;

                         RETURN_BOOL(True);
                     }




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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
GCZ hat gesagt: // GCZ wrote:

> Frank Barknecht wrote:
> 
> >I stay with open source software, because this libre thing is
> >important to me.
>
> Jaroslav implied that I could, actually, actively help by providing a 
> shell account and my feedback, which I will do. I didn't know that would 
> actually help. But otherwise, when there's no Free Software alternative 
> that works in a particular situation, I don't see any problem with 
> buying closed-source software.

IMO the right thing libre-wise to do in that case is not to buy
hardware from vendors that don't support open source development.
According to my impression Terratec does generally support OS
development, so the problem you have with their card is probably
solvable. Nvidia however doesn't give a damn about open source, that's
why I never would buy any of their products. (I could play Quake3 just
fine with my Matrox card, if I wanted to, and I already have a closed
source Playstation.) 

I don't want to tell anyone what to do, though. Everyone of course can
and should run the software (s)he wants to. It's just not very nice to
come here, and tell everyone on the ALSA list that you are using
OSS/Nonfree now.  That's what provoked me to my sarcastic "goodbye"
comment.

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                               _ ______footils.org__


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[GCZ]

Frank Barknecht wrote:

> IMO the right thing libre-wise to do in that case is not to buy
> hardware from vendors that don't support open source development.

Right. With over 90% of windows users, I think that's a tad useless for 
now. If you are coherent with your principle then:

- you don't own a single video DVD
- you shouldn't own a Playstation
- your choice among cellphones is very limited, if not inexistant
- you don't own a computer, because you didn't find any motherboard with 
an open source BIOS

> solvable. Nvidia however doesn't give a damn about open source, that's
> why I never would buy any of their products. (I could play Quake3 just
> fine with my Matrox card, if I wanted to, and I already have a closed
> source Playstation.) 

Right. I ordered Doom3 and will receive it in about two weeks. So I 
shouldn't use my nice GeForce FX with it either? Come on.
Nvidia stands out of the crowd because they took the ressources needed 
to provide the linux community full support for their products (ATI's 
drivers for linux just suck - hard). Not only am I glad about this, but 
I also think this should be encouraged. RMS is too extreme in his 
recommendations for my taste.

My take is this: if you want to promote Free Software, develop and 
promote Free Hardware in the first place. AFAIK, Nvidia is making a 
living in a competitive way, and I certainly don't blame them for 
keeping their IP secret. I would prefer open-source software, and even 
better, Free Software, but I certainly don't blame them.

> and should run the software (s)he wants to. It's just not very nice to
> come here, and tell everyone on the ALSA list that you are using
> OSS/Nonfree now.  That's what provoked me to my sarcastic "goodbye"
> comment.

I said that because I do care, actually. If I didn't, why would I bother 
telling the ALSA team that their driver/library/utilities don't work for 
me? Sometimes ranting is positive, especially if you're willing to give 
some of your time to help out.

This thread has gone a bit off topic, please fu2 poster if you want to 
continue this conversation.


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
GCZ hat gesagt: // GCZ wrote:

> Frank Barknecht wrote:
> 
> >IMO the right thing libre-wise to do in that case is not to buy
> >hardware from vendors that don't support open source development.
> 
> Right. With over 90% of windows users, I think that's a tad useless for 
> now. 

With 10 percent Linux users it is not.

> If you are coherent with your principle then:
> 
> - you don't own a single video DVD
> - you shouldn't own a Playstation
> - your choice among cellphones is very limited, if not inexistant
> - you don't own a computer, because you didn't find any motherboard with 
> an open source BIOS
... 
> This thread has gone a bit off topic, please fu2 poster if you want to 
> continue this conversation.

This is really on the verge of getting off-topic, but one final
comment: I think that closed source hardware drivers are of another
importance than closed source "application" software, because specs
for hardware make the whole open source thing possible in the first
place. If hardware specs are kept secret it will be very easy to shut
us out, once the hardware maker decides so. Nvidia practically shut
open source out already, and ATI followed their lead in this behaviour
which is sad.

That's why I'm not going to support this by buying products from
vendors who are trying to keep open source developers out even now.
There are enough alternatives in almost all cases. I'm sure I can play
Doom 3 in five years with some future Intel onboard graphics card
using open source drivers just fine. I'm a patient guy. I've probably
waited more for ALSA 1.0.

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                               _ ______footils.org__


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Re: OSS vs ALSA war :-)

[Peter Zubaj]

Maybe:

1 user of 10 000 bought same soundcard as you have.
1 of 1000 these users uses linux.
1 of 100 these linux users is developer.
1 of 10 these developers can fix and want fix problem in your
soundcard driver.

Result: you must search for 1 from 10 000 000 000 (are there so many
people on the world) :-)

In real:
If one from alsa developers doesn't have information from card
manufacturer about internal things on card it will be very hard to
find where problem is (and he must have card).

You can use OSS driver, you always have choice.
I prefer hardware, where I exactly know it is supported under linux
(open source drivers or closed source drivers, but free on cost). If
it is not fully suported, but basically works, I am able most of time
add others feature I need (if informations are available from
manufacturer).

Peter Zubaj

____________________________________
http://www.pobox.sk/ - najvacsi slovensky freemail





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