reiser4 for windows

reiser4 for windows

[Job Bob]

  I know that this question has a fairly obvious
answer, but is there or will there be a reiser4 driver
for Windows? Microsoft will only make one if enough
people use reiser4, otherwise hell will freeze before
they do. The free software people seem to suffer from
NIH syndrome, so they probably won't help either. That
only leaves individuals or companies. Any ideas on
when we might we a reiser4 driver for windows?

                                       Yale


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! 
http://my.yahoo.com 
 

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Hans Reiser]

Job Bob wrote:

>  I know that this question has a fairly obvious
>answer, but is there or will there be a reiser4 driver
>for Windows?
>
Depends on how many people buy the repacker for reiser4.  If a lot do, 
or some other money source appears, then I can afford projects like 
creating a windows port.  

>Microsoft will only make one if enough
>people use reiser4, otherwise hell will freeze before
>they do. The free software people seem to suffer from
>NIH syndrome, so they probably won't help either. That
>only leaves individuals or companies. Any ideas on
>when we might we a reiser4 driver for windows?
>
>                                       Yale
>
>
>		
>__________________________________ 
>Do you Yahoo!? 
>Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! 
>http://my.yahoo.com 
> 
>
>
>
>  
>

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Hans Reiser]

I should add that reiser4 for windows would be proprietary.   If they 
can pay MS, they can pay me, and I see no reason to do free work for MS.

Re: reiser4 for windows

[David Masover]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Hans Reiser wrote:
| I should add that reiser4 for windows would be proprietary.   If they
| can pay MS, they can pay me, and I see no reason to do free work for MS.

Don't think too highly of the Cygwin project, do you?  Oh, and it's
almost impossible to get a laptop without paying MS, directly or
indirectly.  No reiser4 for laptops, then.

Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.

To start with, ntfs read access is still case insensitive, last I
checked.  How deep does that go?  How many programs would be broken if
it was changed?  How much point would there be if one could not access a
unix-created reiser4 partition, or if unix reiser4.2 had to be case
insensitive?  And let's not go into the file-as-directory stuff -- it's
hard enough on unix.

All this leaves me with the distinct impression that it'd be cheaper to
buy some gigabit ethernet (or fibre) and a Linux CIFS/Samba fileserver
using reiser4.  Steam and others refuse to install on network drives,
Windows probably will not boot off a network drive, but I imagine that
fixing these would be easier than porting a filesystem.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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=2xlV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Redeeman]

On Sat, 2004-12-04 at 22:54 -0600, David Masover wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> Hans Reiser wrote:
> | I should add that reiser4 for windows would be proprietary.   If they
> | can pay MS, they can pay me, and I see no reason to do free work for MS.
> 
> Don't think too highly of the Cygwin project, do you?  Oh, and it's
> almost impossible to get a laptop without paying MS, directly or
> indirectly.  No reiser4 for laptops, then.
well.. it depends on where you buy the laptop. i would never even
consider buying one a place where windows is required to buy too. and
yet, i can get reiser4.
> 
> Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
> from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
> windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
> Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.
its possible, one just needs to buy the windows installable filesystems
kit, which they were so kind to put a price on. probably because they
know they cant do a fs themselves and they dont want competition
> 
> To start with, ntfs read access is still case insensitive, last I
> checked.  How deep does that go?  How many programs would be broken if
> it was changed?  How much point would there be if one could not access a
> unix-created reiser4 partition, or if unix reiser4.2 had to be case
> insensitive?  And let's not go into the file-as-directory stuff -- it's
> hard enough on unix.
> 
> All this leaves me with the distinct impression that it'd be cheaper to
> buy some gigabit ethernet (or fibre) and a Linux CIFS/Samba fileserver
> using reiser4.  Steam and others refuse to install on network drives,
> Windows probably will not boot off a network drive, but I imagine that
> fixing these would be easier than porting a filesystem.
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
> iQIVAwUBQbKUkHgHNmZLgCUhAQIjwg//bES/Y5TRhdkNyaMAveX4TutK+lKNJqsp
> P6j0OJTIW9DxrwtpuMjTICwMW1Lr50oercybKtvQz+UIz7lznmyegyPyjCQFF4dm
> /styevdcbUOal5kP1gqxquyxw0nmO4Nl45AUAuArUetYVHbDN/odgQ1jFNt1WXpT
> suno3iDwZqiF5+ZSYN1psruukI4KS59+S/Cl9D8TYT7XJUp1AzFa8i+I2ODRw1uj
> CQDV1tU7CfqngKheJ/yKV5VTLIb0RrTAhaf2tU5V5bm60+8UIGii8blHWs/0ltq0
> UEfAOSXPJiLHcYPiVCutKagss02Nyy0dlWzD160JSUkXq22+3pKSFQXUxJFKCrXa
> 7lFAbosAYO7pt/JIjDBB9Y72F/p8dQJq9kizIBg/KLGD/ZdoRPksxsvf3Ale6uCb
> wtciIIsRPlxb+UkefubWeo9kmoD7bWig3IF9zSQUZEupM1WZYcNEdyYEXpLg6BqD
> x1Yn0DfCv61ISIahKdNoQEiOyc87Wqcsg6IvByH0pXmdYh0bBkWxxpax4+n+kd2y
> TI5yX2QmXxS6RWFAuXV1H2mUyYRcKLeVsNy75Kxorl7nbc4HC/MZsmV+e4z5Whkh
> +/5gH9l9bV2NxXL0vKmdQ9zEUHUYYCCqUxWoRtYHY4DFoDgtGE8GyD8QTmyevoT4
> bVDdji2mpS0=
> =2xlV
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
-- 
Redeeman <redeeman@metanurb.dk>

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Philip Miller]

David Masover wrote:
> Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
> from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
> windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
> Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.

Have a look at <http://ext2fsd.sourceforge.net/projects/projects.htm>.

Phil Miller

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Marcus Furlong]

Philip Miller wrote:

> David Masover wrote:
>> Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
>> from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
>> windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
>> Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.
> 
> Have a look at <http://ext2fsd.sourceforge.net/projects/projects.htm>.
> 
> Phil Miller

And one for reiserfs...
http://p-nand-q.com/download/rfstool.html

and gui frontend for it...
http://yareg.akucom.de/

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Hans Reiser]

David Masover wrote:

>
> Hans Reiser wrote:
> | I should add that reiser4 for windows would be proprietary.   If they
> | can pay MS, they can pay me, and I see no reason to do free work for MS.
>
> Don't think too highly of the Cygwin project, do you?  Oh, and it's
> almost impossible to get a laptop without paying MS, directly or
> indirectly.  No 

windows

> reiser4 for laptops, then.
>
> Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
> from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
> windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
> Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.

I don't know, honestly.

>
> To start with, ntfs read access is still case insensitive, last I
> checked.  How deep does that go?

In reiser4, it is just a directory plugin.

> How many programs would be broken if
> it was changed?  How much point would there be if one could not access a
> unix-created reiser4 partition, or if unix reiser4.2 had to be case
> insensitive?  And let's not go into the file-as-directory stuff -- it's
> hard enough on unix.
>
> All this leaves me with the distinct impression that it'd be cheaper to
> buy some gigabit ethernet (or fibre) and a Linux CIFS/Samba fileserver
> using reiser4.  Steam and others refuse to install on network drives,
> Windows probably will not boot off a network drive, but I imagine that
> fixing these would be easier than porting a filesystem.
>

Re: reiser4 for windows

[David Masover]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hans Reiser wrote:
[...]
|
|>
|> To start with, ntfs read access is still case insensitive, last I
|> checked.  How deep does that go?
|
|
| In reiser4, it is just a directory plugin.

Nono -- how do you give Windows, which is case insensitive, access to a
case-sensitive filesystem?  For instance, how do you get a Windows-based
backup program to back up a reiser4 partition from a Linux installation,
if it has filenames that are identical except for case?

Or is compatibility not an issue?

|> All this leaves me with the distinct impression that it'd be cheaper to
|> buy some gigabit ethernet (or fibre) and a Linux CIFS/Samba fileserver
|> using reiser4.  Steam and others refuse to install on network drives,
|> Windows probably will not boot off a network drive, but I imagine that
|> fixing these would be easier than porting a filesystem.

This was awhile ago, and I forget a lot of the context, but I'm
re-reading this and I agree with myself.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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=L++4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Hans Reiser]

David Masover wrote:

> Hans Reiser wrote:
> [...]
> |
> |>
> |> To start with, ntfs read access is still case insensitive, last I
> |> checked.  How deep does that go?
> |
> |
> | In reiser4, it is just a directory plugin.
>
> Nono -- how do you give Windows, which is case insensitive, access to a
> case-sensitive filesystem?  For instance, how do you get a Windows-based
> backup program to back up a reiser4 partition from a Linux installation,
> if it has filenames that are identical except for case?

This problem is insoluble.  Either make reiser4 case insensitive and use 
it that way or educate the windows programs or live with bugs.  I see no 
alternative.  Do you?

>
> Or is compatibility not an issue?
>
> |> All this leaves me with the distinct impression that it'd be cheaper to
> |> buy some gigabit ethernet (or fibre) and a Linux CIFS/Samba fileserver
> |> using reiser4.  Steam and others refuse to install on network drives,
> |> Windows probably will not boot off a network drive, but I imagine that
> |> fixing these would be easier than porting a filesystem.
>
> This was awhile ago, and I forget a lot of the context, but I'm
> re-reading this and I agree with myself.

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Christian Iversen]

On Monday 17 January 2005 17:46, Hans Reiser wrote:
> David Masover wrote:
> > Hans Reiser wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> > |> To start with, ntfs read access is still case insensitive, last I
> > |> checked.  How deep does that go?
> > |
> > | In reiser4, it is just a directory plugin.
> >
> > Nono -- how do you give Windows, which is case insensitive, access to a
> > case-sensitive filesystem?  For instance, how do you get a Windows-based
> > backup program to back up a reiser4 partition from a Linux installation,
> > if it has filenames that are identical except for case?
>
> This problem is insoluble.  Either make reiser4 case insensitive and use
> it that way or educate the windows programs or live with bugs.  I see no
> alternative.  Do you?

Actually, NTFS has case-sensitivity-support, but it's turned off by default. I 
think a fair share of programs _should_ work, even though they all _ought_ to 
work.

Could reiser4 support case-crushing, so it would be more "windows-native"?

-- 
Regards,
Christian Iversen

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Hans Reiser]

Christian Iversen wrote:

>On Monday 17 January 2005 17:46, Hans Reiser wrote:
>  
>
>>David Masover wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Hans Reiser wrote:
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>|> To start with, ntfs read access is still case insensitive, last I
>>>|> checked.  How deep does that go?
>>>|
>>>| In reiser4, it is just a directory plugin.
>>>
>>>Nono -- how do you give Windows, which is case insensitive, access to a
>>>case-sensitive filesystem?  For instance, how do you get a Windows-based
>>>backup program to back up a reiser4 partition from a Linux installation,
>>>if it has filenames that are identical except for case?
>>>      
>>>
>>This problem is insoluble.  Either make reiser4 case insensitive and use
>>it that way or educate the windows programs or live with bugs.  I see no
>>alternative.  Do you?
>>    
>>
>
>Actually, NTFS has case-sensitivity-support, but it's turned off by default. I 
>think a fair share of programs _should_ work, even though they all _ought_ to 
>work.
>
>Could reiser4 support case-crushing, so it would be more "windows-native"?
>
>  
>
It could, as a plugin.

Re: reiser4 for windows

[mjt]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 08:37:13AM -0800, Hans Reiser wrote:

>>Could reiser4 support case-crushing, so it would be more "windows-native"?
>It could, as a plugin.

Reiser4 has a sys interface already, why not add echo 1 > case_crush or 
somesuch? Shouldn't take a long time to code, but it shouldn't be a
priority and no one would really want it, I guess...

-- 
mjt

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Christian Iversen]

On Tuesday 01 February 2005 09:52, Markus Törnqvist wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 08:37:13AM -0800, Hans Reiser wrote:
> >>Could reiser4 support case-crushing, so it would be more
> >> "windows-native"?
> >
> >It could, as a plugin.
>
> Reiser4 has a sys interface already, why not add echo 1 > case_crush or
> somesuch? Shouldn't take a long time to code, but it shouldn't be a
> priority and no one would really want it, I guess...

I support your idea, but keep in mind that, to make matters worse, windows 
uses case-insentivity, not case-crushing. This means that the original case 
has to be saved, but the crushed case has to be searched. 

I don't know if that's easy with a hash function, but it seems mightly slow to 
me. 

-- 
Regards,
Christian Iversen

Re: reiser4 for windows

[David Masover]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Christian Iversen wrote:
| On Tuesday 01 February 2005 09:52, Markus Törnqvist wrote:
|
|>On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 08:37:13AM -0800, Hans Reiser wrote:
|>
|>>>Could reiser4 support case-crushing, so it would be more
|>>>"windows-native"?
|>>
|>>It could, as a plugin.
|>
|>Reiser4 has a sys interface already, why not add echo 1 > case_crush or
|>somesuch? Shouldn't take a long time to code, but it shouldn't be a
|>priority and no one would really want it, I guess...
|
|
| I support your idea, but keep in mind that, to make matters worse,
windows
| uses case-insentivity, not case-crushing. This means that the original
case
| has to be saved, but the crushed case has to be searched.
|
| I don't know if that's easy with a hash function, but it seems mightly
slow to
| me.

Who said anything about messing with the hash?  Why not just add
original case as metadata and feed pre-crushed case to the existing
hash?  Don't think overhead is huge if you're already creating a file.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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=4YQD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Christian Iversen]

On Wednesday 02 February 2005 02:18, David Masover wrote:
> Christian Iversen wrote:
> | On Tuesday 01 February 2005 09:52, Markus Törnqvist wrote:
> |>On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 08:37:13AM -0800, Hans Reiser wrote:
> |>>>Could reiser4 support case-crushing, so it would be more
> |>>>"windows-native"?
> |>>
> |>>It could, as a plugin.
> |>
> |>Reiser4 has a sys interface already, why not add echo 1 > case_crush or
> |>somesuch? Shouldn't take a long time to code, but it shouldn't be a
> |>priority and no one would really want it, I guess...
> |
> | I support your idea, but keep in mind that, to make matters worse,
>
> windows
>
> | uses case-insentivity, not case-crushing. This means that the original
>
> case
>
> | has to be saved, but the crushed case has to be searched.
> |
> | I don't know if that's easy with a hash function, but it seems mightly
>
> slow to
>
> | me.
>
> Who said anything about messing with the hash?  Why not just add
> original case as metadata and feed pre-crushed case to the existing
> hash?  Don't think overhead is huge if you're already creating a file.

Well, thinking about it, you seem to be right. I was thinking about something 
else :)

-- 
Regards,
Christian Iversen

Re: reiser4 for windows

[David Masover]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



Hans Reiser wrote:
| David Masover wrote:
|
|> Hans Reiser wrote:
|> [...]
|> |
|> |>
|> |> To start with, ntfs read access is still case insensitive, last I
|> |> checked.  How deep does that go?
|> |
|> |
|> | In reiser4, it is just a directory plugin.
|>
|> Nono -- how do you give Windows, which is case insensitive, access to a
|> case-sensitive filesystem?  For instance, how do you get a Windows-based
|> backup program to back up a reiser4 partition from a Linux installation,
|> if it has filenames that are identical except for case?
|
|
| This problem is insoluble.  Either make reiser4 case insensitive and use
| it that way or educate the windows programs or live with bugs.  I see no
| alternative.  Do you?

Mangling.  Or case-sensitivity (forget who said that NTFS has that).  Or
force case-insensitive FSes only.  I think all three would work in
different situations, and I don't think it would be too difficult to add
all three.

Just for clarification -- mangling is how VFAT is backwards-compatible
with DOS, for example.  myreallylongfile.doc becomes MYREAL~1.DOC when
viewed from DOS, so that while VFAT should really be read with Windows
95 or better (Linux), it can still be accessed in Dos.

This loses information (if a DOS program backs up and restores
MYREAL~1.DOC, you lose the long (myreallylongfile.doc) name.)  But
sometimes there's no alternative, and if you mangle it (instead of just
chopping off the end of the filename) you avoid collisions -- that is,
if you have:

myreallylongfile.doc
myreallife.doc

then they become

MYREAL~1.DOC
MYREAL~2.DOC



Only question is, where to set which of these to choose (mangle or case
sensitivity)?  Maybe it could be per-directory, most likely per-mount.
But I have no idea how Windows passes mount options ... I don't think it
has any mount options at all.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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=uirN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Hans Reiser]

David Masover wrote:

>
>
> Hans Reiser wrote:
> | David Masover wrote:
> |
> |> Hans Reiser wrote:
> |> [...]
> |> |
> |> |>
> |> |> To start with, ntfs read access is still case insensitive, last I
> |> |> checked.  How deep does that go?
> |> |
> |> |
> |> | In reiser4, it is just a directory plugin.
> |>
> |> Nono -- how do you give Windows, which is case insensitive, access to a
> |> case-sensitive filesystem?  For instance, how do you get a 
> Windows-based
> |> backup program to back up a reiser4 partition from a Linux 
> installation,
> |> if it has filenames that are identical except for case?
> |
> |
> | This problem is insoluble.  Either make reiser4 case insensitive and use
> | it that way or educate the windows programs or live with bugs.  I see no
> | alternative.  Do you?
>
> Mangling.  Or case-sensitivity (forget who said that NTFS has that).  Or
> force case-insensitive FSes only.  I think all three would work in
> different situations, and I don't think it would be too difficult to add
> all three.

Ok, so it is soluble.

>
> Just for clarification -- mangling is how VFAT is backwards-compatible
> with DOS, for example.  myreallylongfile.doc becomes MYREAL~1.DOC when
> viewed from DOS, so that while VFAT should really be read with Windows
> 95 or better (Linux), it can still be accessed in Dos.
>
> This loses information (if a DOS program backs up and restores
> MYREAL~1.DOC, you lose the long (myreallylongfile.doc) name.)  But
> sometimes there's no alternative, and if you mangle it (instead of just
> chopping off the end of the filename) you avoid collisions -- that is,
> if you have:
>
> myreallylongfile.doc
> myreallife.doc
>
> then they become
>
> MYREAL~1.DOC
> MYREAL~2.DOC
>
>
>
> Only question is, where to set which of these to choose (mangle or case
> sensitivity)?  Maybe it could be per-directory, most likely per-mount.
> But I have no idea how Windows passes mount options ... I don't think it
> has any mount options at all.
>
well, all this assumes we have resources to spare from debugging reiser4 
for linux.....;-)

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Dr. Giovanni A. Orlando]

Hans Reiser wrote:

> I should add that reiser4 for windows would be proprietary.   If they 
> can pay MS, they can pay me, and I see no reason to do free work for MS.
>
Hans,

    Despite about this. The MS dominance is going down, and therefore 
have no sense.

    I never suppose  you will  found the same 'good'  enviroment 
including C Compiler
     filters, and other tools that only UNIX and GNU/Linux offers.

Thanks,
Giovanni.

-- 


-- 
-- 

Check FT Websites ... http://www.futuretg.com  - ftp://ftp.futuretg.com
http://www.FTLinuxCourse.com
    http://www.FTLinuxCourse.com/Certification
http://www.rpmparadaise.org
http://GNULinuxUtilities.com
http://www.YourPersonalOperatingSystem.com

WorldWide Global Mobile: +39 393 665 4239

-- 

Re: reiser4 for windows

[David Masover]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dr. Giovanni A. Orlando wrote:
| Hans Reiser wrote:
|
|> I should add that reiser4 for windows would be proprietary.   If they
|> can pay MS, they can pay me, and I see no reason to do free work for MS.
|>
| Hans,
|
|    Despite about this. The MS dominance is going down, and therefore
| have no sense.
|
|    I never suppose  you will  found the same 'good'  enviroment
| including C Compiler
|     filters, and other tools that only UNIX and GNU/Linux offers.

Define "good"?  There's cygwin.  There's also numerous commercial
software development suites.

I'm not advocating Windows development, but the things that are not
"good" are going to be the interfaces one has to deal with when writing
a driver.  No doubt if you get this working and it gets popular (free or
not), MS will change some API thing that only affects you and three
other apps no one cares about, and send it with a "security update".

If I ever develop for Windows, I pray to all that is holy that I will be
able to use some portability toolkit or virtual machine, neither of
which would work very well for a modern FS.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iQIVAwUBQbK6qngHNmZLgCUhAQKcZw/+K9edryj4cFsxBjn/KtuNXiBvt/1gePFs
sde/MJydtFJE8k0lEYmMdQDOizuF0iUZcyK2wgEsmNUQHVAJifwvrPrF29dpTF/a
bGbAcn4qtWyQvPYUIM1Zf7S07Q1j628P2Vxwiy8v0CMZRfR1gJAnPcJNVARBKEqM
C+WrZgjqt6qUx2yk8cfqDOSQ8z3ABlhrljPymDocIF9texuYrDEGG/dlfuTZwP8z
LSmTL4Hz25v6ahXVLufcashN9xcNLhygX3EO3DSW/+T0UB5iYS3QAhLp/X/wDprB
J74jF97KyrzAF7V14qufRJmxdcbomUWJogWpQsA++m+Vsq1gyxw3aws2HAr/NJdV
LSm3x3Ktv3u6ROs3a3ZyI63oLUwD1GcVC3JsR42zuztyjEjW5rOhBIbGWYCMYa5q
TisQpZwb/bnbBZqNTPJWWOPJyf3+kU7IvZJbAJiPhdUoattr3Ce+2nncule9YVWf
5fUGv6sbd4WMeQ920KtLvEmyL6sZE67fXqwqA2T8M9ZSr7lI4jp5jav53mMlZ3jv
5kZTMSA1JQ8uAola+k3MYoJ5pMnjTM/iFpUrQY77jNCUUhAscu3vdXSjfkG1bSpr
Ced4PfeiHtFqsWrLQZOSQVtA8hCm9zDjSk6LY3F1l6hvyoIkzXIF/s1TmuF8266z
/GcKixV3rR4=
=p/Ux
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Jonathan Briggs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1057 bytes --]

On Sat, 2004-12-04 at 13:10 -0800, Job Bob wrote:
>   I know that this question has a fairly obvious
> answer, but is there or will there be a reiser4 driver
> for Windows? Microsoft will only make one if enough
> people use reiser4, otherwise hell will freeze before
> they do. The free software people seem to suffer from
> NIH syndrome, so they probably won't help either. That
> only leaves individuals or companies. Any ideas on
> when we might we a reiser4 driver for windows?
> 
>                                        Yale


There are ext2/3 and reiserfs access programs for Windows.  They are not
implemented as Windows filesystem drivers.  I do not know if this is
because of technical difficulties or Windows vs. GPL licensing problems.

Most of them bring up the filesystem in a Windows Explorerish interface.
You can then copy files in or out.

I don't see any reasons why someone willing to do the work couldn't
adapt one of those programs to interface to Reiser4.
-- 
Jonathan Briggs <jbriggs@esoft.com>
eSoft, Inc.

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Tierra]

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:31:29 -0700, Jonathan Briggs <jbriggs@esoft.com> wrote:
> There are ext2/3 and reiserfs access programs for Windows.  They are not
> implemented as Windows filesystem drivers.  I do not know if this is
> because of technical difficulties or Windows vs. GPL licensing problems.
> 
> Most of them bring up the filesystem in a Windows Explorerish interface.
> You can then copy files in or out.

You mean much like rfstool?
http://www.p-nand-q.com/download/rfstool.html

I've seen other reiserfs GUI tools, all pretty much are a wrapper
around the above library (including my own). But I've never seen
anything with write access, just read-only. Also, AFAIK, Gerson Kurz
has no plans of working on that project anymore, so it's a limited few
who could pull off a Reiser4 Windows library.

Bryan Petty

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Dr. Giovanni A. Orlando]

Tierra wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:31:29 -0700, Jonathan Briggs <jbriggs@esoft.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>There are ext2/3 and reiserfs access programs for Windows.  They are not
>>implemented as Windows filesystem drivers.  I do not know if this is
>>because of technical difficulties or Windows vs. GPL licensing problems.
>>
>>Most of them bring up the filesystem in a Windows Explorerish interface.
>>You can then copy files in or out.
>>    
>>
>
>You mean much like rfstool?
>http://www.p-nand-q.com/download/rfstool.html
>  
>
This seems cool. May be there are a use with programs like Ghost that backup
also Linux partitions, and probably now will found all the Linux partitions
including reiserfs.

I don't see other use.

What was interesting was to install MS Windows on a ReiserFS partitions
and probably there are a way to do using GNU/Linux, not windows.

I neither see any screeshot  on this website regarding the program.

Under pictures, I found images about Florence, Rome, and other ruins.

Seems this person loves ruins and want to enable them in futuristic
technologies
like Reiser.

... Is better to discard Ruins. Ruins represent the past like MS Windows
:-) :-D

Thanks,
Giovanni.

>I've seen other reiserfs GUI tools, all pretty much are a wrapper
>around the above library (including my own). But I've never seen
>anything with write access, just read-only. Also, AFAIK, Gerson Kurz
>has no plans of working on that project anymore, so it's a limited few
>who could pull off a Reiser4 Windows library.
>
>Bryan Petty
>
>  
>


-- 


-- 
-- 

Check FT Websites ... http://www.futuretg.com  - ftp://ftp.futuretg.com
http://www.FTLinuxCourse.com
    http://www.FTLinuxCourse.com/Certification
http://www.rpmparadaise.org
http://GNULinuxUtilities.com
http://www.YourPersonalOperatingSystem.com

WorldWide Global Mobile: +39 393 665 4239

-- 

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Jiri Klouda]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1627 bytes --]

> Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
> from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
> windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
> Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.

You might be onto something here. I am pretty sure my company would
pay quite a lot for a working, fast and elegant implementation of 
symbolic links on windows. Either as a new filesystem or as an addition 
onto ntfs. We currently use one such addition and not very usable and
uses a catalog of symlinks that can easily get corrupted.

Having reiser4 on Windows or even ext2, would be a huge thing.

> All this leaves me with the distinct impression that it'd be cheaper to
> buy some gigabit ethernet (or fibre) and a Linux CIFS/Samba fileserver
> using reiser4.  Steam and others refuse to install on network drives,
> Windows probably will not boot off a network drive, but I imagine that
> fixing these would be easier than porting a filesystem.

Unfortunatelly even with very fast ethernet connections and network
appliance with CIFS access, we still don't get the performance of a
local filesystem. Plus, you don't want to really give write access 
over network, that slows down anything when you get into hundreds of
clients. And we really cannot pay for so many network applicances to
make this scalable proposition.

I wish we could just drop Windows as a platform, but as long as there
are customers, there will be need to support them as well... :(

-Jiri

-- 
Jiri Klouda <jk@zg.cz>
http://www.zg.cz/~jk

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Redeeman]

On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 22:07 -0800, Jiri Klouda wrote:
> > Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
> > from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
> > windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
> > Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.
> 
> You might be onto something here. I am pretty sure my company would
> pay quite a lot for a working, fast and elegant implementation of 
> symbolic links on windows. Either as a new filesystem or as an addition 
> onto ntfs. We currently use one such addition and not very usable and
> uses a catalog of symlinks that can easily get corrupted.
> 
> Having reiser4 on Windows or even ext2, would be a huge thing.
a real implementation of ext2 for windows exists.. i had it once in
vmware.. but i cant remember the name
> 
> > All this leaves me with the distinct impression that it'd be cheaper to
> > buy some gigabit ethernet (or fibre) and a Linux CIFS/Samba fileserver
> > using reiser4.  Steam and others refuse to install on network drives,
> > Windows probably will not boot off a network drive, but I imagine that
> > fixing these would be easier than porting a filesystem.
> 
> Unfortunatelly even with very fast ethernet connections and network
> appliance with CIFS access, we still don't get the performance of a
> local filesystem. Plus, you don't want to really give write access 
> over network, that slows down anything when you get into hundreds of
> clients. And we really cannot pay for so many network applicances to
> make this scalable proposition.
> 
> I wish we could just drop Windows as a platform, but as long as there
> are customers, there will be need to support them as well... :(
> 
> -Jiri
> 
-- 
Redeeman <redeeman@metanurb.dk>

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Spam]

> On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 22:07 -0800, Jiri Klouda wrote:
>> > Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
>> > from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
>> > windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
>> > Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.

  Aren't there? Isn't there various compression systems, not to
  mention PGP disk? Maybe it is not the same thing...
>> 
>> You might be onto something here. I am pretty sure my company would
>> pay quite a lot for a working, fast and elegant implementation of 
>> symbolic links on windows. Either as a new filesystem or as an addition
>> onto ntfs. We currently use one such addition and not very usable and
>> uses a catalog of symlinks that can easily get corrupted.

  Yes, NTFS only has hard links, not symlinks =(. I have myself been
  wanting to use symlinks a lot.
>> 
>> Having reiser4 on Windows or even ext2, would be a huge thing.
> a real implementation of ext2 for windows exists.. i had it once in
> vmware.. but i cant remember the name
>> 
>> > All this leaves me with the distinct impression that it'd be cheaper to
>> > buy some gigabit ethernet (or fibre) and a Linux CIFS/Samba fileserver
>> > using reiser4.  Steam and others refuse to install on network drives,
>> > Windows probably will not boot off a network drive, but I imagine that
>> > fixing these would be easier than porting a filesystem.

  Will disk access over LAN really be anything close to as fast as a
  real local harddisk, especially if you have to run over Samba? Oh,
  just noticed you said this in the next paragraph =).

  Windows can be run from a network drive. Steam, on the other hand
  prevents network drives for the same reason it has CD checks. It is
  all about preventing users from running copies.
  
>> 
>> Unfortunatelly even with very fast ethernet connections and network
>> appliance with CIFS access, we still don't get the performance of a
>> local filesystem. Plus, you don't want to really give write access 
>> over network, that slows down anything when you get into hundreds of
>> clients. And we really cannot pay for so many network applicances to
>> make this scalable proposition.
>> 
>> I wish we could just drop Windows as a platform, but as long as there
>> are customers, there will be need to support them as well... :(

  It is easy to say these things. But really, for lots of applications
  and uses there is only MacOSX that can compete. Linux has yet a far
  way to go when it comes to normal desktop and workstation usage.
  Hardcore and relatively skillful users have no problems with Linux
  as a desktop environment, but the "gray mass" does. KDE and Gnome
  are improving fast though =). Anyway, that is another discussion not
  really for this forum.

  ~S
>> 
>> -Jiri
>> 
´

-- 

Re: reiser4 for windows

[David Masover]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Spam wrote:
|>On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 22:07 -0800, Jiri Klouda wrote:
|>
|>>>Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
|>>>from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
|>>>windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
|>>>Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.
|
|
|   Aren't there? Isn't there various compression systems, not to
|   mention PGP disk? Maybe it is not the same thing...

Not exactly.  Is there an XFS for Windows?  What about JFS?  What about
Minix?  Sure, some filesystems have apps that allow access, but I don't
think I've seen one that provides an actual filesystem driver (not
plugin).  I do occasionally hear of them, though.
|
|>>You might be onto something here. I am pretty sure my company would
|>>pay quite a lot for a working, fast and elegant implementation of
|>>symbolic links on windows. Either as a new filesystem or as an addition
|>>onto ntfs. We currently use one such addition and not very usable and
|>>uses a catalog of symlinks that can easily get corrupted.
|
|
|   Yes, NTFS only has hard links, not symlinks =(. I have myself been
|   wanting to use symlinks a lot.
|
|>>Having reiser4 on Windows or even ext2, would be a huge thing.
|>
|>a real implementation of ext2 for windows exists.. i had it once in
|>vmware.. but i cant remember the name
|>
|>>>All this leaves me with the distinct impression that it'd be cheaper to
|>>>buy some gigabit ethernet (or fibre) and a Linux CIFS/Samba fileserver
|>>>using reiser4.  Steam and others refuse to install on network drives,
|>>>Windows probably will not boot off a network drive, but I imagine that
|>>>fixing these would be easier than porting a filesystem.
|
|
|   Will disk access over LAN really be anything close to as fast as a
|   real local harddisk, especially if you have to run over Samba? Oh,
|   just noticed you said this in the next paragraph =).

Depends.  Some networks are faster than hard disks.  Also, there's
Lustre, if there's ever an open source fork.

|   Windows can be run from a network drive. Steam, on the other hand
|   prevents network drives for the same reason it has CD checks. It is
|   all about preventing users from running copies.

Well, yes, only it's a stupid measure.  Their main copy protection is
that Steam connects to the Internet whenever it can, so users cannot
_run_ multiple copies.

This is the right approach, but any solution still needs to support apps
which use the wrong approach.  Still, programs have been fooled before
by things like clonecd and an emulation drive.


|>>Unfortunatelly even with very fast ethernet connections and network
|>>appliance with CIFS access, we still don't get the performance of a
|>>local filesystem. Plus, you don't want to really give write access
|>>over network, that slows down anything when you get into hundreds of
|>>clients. And we really cannot pay for so many network applicances to
|>>make this scalable proposition.
|>>
|>>I wish we could just drop Windows as a platform, but as long as there
|>>are customers, there will be need to support them as well... :(
|
|
|   It is easy to say these things. But really, for lots of applications
|   and uses there is only MacOSX that can compete. Linux has yet a far
|   way to go when it comes to normal desktop and workstation usage.
|   Hardcore and relatively skillful users have no problems with Linux
|   as a desktop environment, but the "gray mass" does. KDE and Gnome
|   are improving fast though =). Anyway, that is another discussion not
|   really for this forum.

My mother uses Linux.  My mother did not know what Windows was until I
explained it to her.

It is for another forum, but in reality, the only reason to use Windows
is applications that don't work well under Wine and have no viable
substitutes.  For most people, this is a problem of perception.  The
only things I have real problems with are exotic hardware (which most
people can afford to not buy) and games, and the hardware is something I
have as many problems with Windows as anything else.  (The X-Port won't
work on anything other than Windows 98 or Windows ME.)

This is relevent to reiser4, in a way.  The problem is not that Linux
has a way to go when it comes to normal desktop/workstation usage.  The
problem is that it isn't better enough for most people to switch.  Why
do you think nobody uses MacOSX?

The momentum has to be broken by something really cool, the way Halo
made the Xbox popular.  If Steam moved exclusively to Linux, then
virtually all gamers would either follow or dual-boot, definitely in
time for Half-Life 3.

Why is this relevant to this forum?  Because the same problem exists for
Reiser4.  Metadata bugs aside, it isn't "better enough" yet.  It needs a
killer app.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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=N1Ci
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: reiser4 for windows

[Radovan Garabik]

On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 10:38:08PM -0600, David Masover wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Spam wrote:
> |>On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 22:07 -0800, Jiri Klouda wrote:
> |>
> |>>>Also, is it a given that reiser4 for windows would work without help
> |>>>from MS?  I've just never seen a third-party filesystem driver for
> |>>>windows.  You'd think that at least one other filesystem, one of the
> |>>>Linux/BSD/etc ones, would have done this, if it was feasable.
> |
> |
> |   Aren't there? Isn't there various compression systems, not to
> |   mention PGP disk? Maybe it is not the same thing...
> 
> Not exactly.  Is there an XFS for Windows?  What about JFS?  What about
> Minix?  Sure, some filesystems have apps that allow access, but I don't
> think I've seen one that provides an actual filesystem driver (not
> plugin).  I do occasionally hear of them, though.

There is an ext2 filesystem for Win98. I used it extensively some time
ago. It had reliable read-only support and an experimental read write
one (which I did not try).
However, I do not remember if it supported symlinks (it for sure did not
support unix permissions - it could not, if you think about it)


-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!