[LARTC] Sip Traffic

[LARTC] Sip Traffic

[LinuXKiD]

Hi.

there is a way to MARK udp VOIP (SIP) traffic,
in order to put in a highest prio class ?

Traffic flow seems start on udp 5060 port, but
next both server and client seems jump to a 
random(?) port.
	
I can't use CONNMARK because is udp traffic.

I only see a pattern for L7 patch in order to 
SIP traffic identification , but I run 2.4 
kernel series . 

When you patch 2.4 kernel with L7 patch,
later, Connmark (patch o matic ) can't apply.
(conflicts)

thank you.
--
Andres 
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RE: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[William Bohannan]

Hi I am pretty much a newbie, I found with sip if I match ports 5060 and
10000 - 20000 it works I noticed on some phones the use 13000 - 14000 and
others use 18000 - 19000.  there is a new sip-contrack out although I
haven't tried it yet.

william

-----Original Message-----
From: lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl [mailto:lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl]
On Behalf Of LinuXKiD
Sent: 17 April 2006 15:59
To: lartc
Subject: [LARTC] Sip Traffic


Hi.

there is a way to MARK udp VOIP (SIP) traffic,
in order to put in a highest prio class ?

Traffic flow seems start on udp 5060 port, but
next both server and client seems jump to a 
random(?) port.
	
I can't use CONNMARK because is udp traffic.

I only see a pattern for L7 patch in order to 
SIP traffic identification , but I run 2.4 
kernel series . 

When you patch 2.4 kernel with L7 patch,
later, Connmark (patch o matic ) can't apply.
(conflicts)

thank you.
--
Andres 
_______________________________________________
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LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc

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RE: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[LinuXKiD]

mmm... intresting....

http://sipx-wiki.calivia.com/index.php/HowTo_configure_iptables

ip_conntrack_sip

Someone has tried it ?

works on 2.4 kernel series ?

thanks




->
->
-> Hi I am pretty much a newbie, I found with sip if I match ports 5060 and
-> 10000 - 20000 it works I noticed on some phones the use 13000 - 14000 and
-> others use 18000 - 19000.  there is a new sip-contrack out although I
-> haven't tried it yet.
->
-> william
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl
-> [mailto:lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl]
-> On Behalf Of LinuXKiD
-> Sent: 17 April 2006 15:59
-> To: lartc
-> Subject: [LARTC] Sip Traffic
->
->
-> Hi.
->
-> there is a way to MARK udp VOIP (SIP) traffic,
-> in order to put in a highest prio class ?
->
-> Traffic flow seems start on udp 5060 port, but
-> next both server and client seems jump to a
-> random(?) port.
->
-> I can't use CONNMARK because is udp traffic.
->
-> I only see a pattern for L7 patch in order to
-> SIP traffic identification , but I run 2.4
-> kernel series .
->
-> When you patch 2.4 kernel with L7 patch,
-> later, Connmark (patch o matic ) can't apply.
-> (conflicts)
->
-> thank you.
-> --
-> Andres
-> _______________________________________________
-> LARTC mailing list
-> LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
-> http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
->

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RE: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[chentschel]

Mensaje citado por: LinuXKiD <gregoriandres@yahoo.com.ar>:

> 
> mmm... intresting....
:) indeed.. 

> Someone has tried it ?
I suppose, i have received very goog feedback about it. 

> works on 2.4 kernel series ?
Only > 2.6.11. (rusty newnat api)

BTW, using the \"helper\" extension in IPTABLES is possible to mark sip related traffic easily

> thanks
Cheers. 
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Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[Francisco]

L7 filter works very well too:
http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net/

Although I didn't try it with sip, I use it to control my P2P and server 
applications and have a very usable ADSL link at almost 100% utilization of 
my upstream.


El Martes, 18 de Abril de 2006 07:45, LinuXKiD escribió:
> mmm... intresting....
>
> http://sipx-wiki.calivia.com/index.php/HowTo_configure_iptables
>
> ip_conntrack_sip
>
> Someone has tried it ?
>
> works on 2.4 kernel series ?
>
> thanks
>
>
>
>
> ->
> ->
> -> Hi I am pretty much a newbie, I found with sip if I match ports 5060 and
> -> 10000 - 20000 it works I noticed on some phones the use 13000 - 14000
> and -> others use 18000 - 19000.  there is a new sip-contrack out although
> I -> haven't tried it yet.
> ->
> -> william
> ->
> -> -----Original Message-----
> -> From: lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl
> -> [mailto:lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl]
> -> On Behalf Of LinuXKiD
> -> Sent: 17 April 2006 15:59
> -> To: lartc
> -> Subject: [LARTC] Sip Traffic
> ->
> ->
> -> Hi.
> ->
> -> there is a way to MARK udp VOIP (SIP) traffic,
> -> in order to put in a highest prio class ?
> ->
> -> Traffic flow seems start on udp 5060 port, but
> -> next both server and client seems jump to a
> -> random(?) port.
> ->
> -> I can't use CONNMARK because is udp traffic.
> ->
> -> I only see a pattern for L7 patch in order to
> -> SIP traffic identification , but I run 2.4
> -> kernel series .
> ->
> -> When you patch 2.4 kernel with L7 patch,
> -> later, Connmark (patch o matic ) can't apply.
> -> (conflicts)
> ->
> -> thank you.
> -> --
> -> Andres
> -> _______________________________________________
> -> LARTC mailing list
> -> LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
> -> http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
> ->
>
> _______________________________________________
> LARTC mailing list
> LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
> http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
_______________________________________________
LARTC mailing list
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http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc

Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[Jason Boxman]

On Thursday 20 April 2006 22:19, Francisco wrote:
> L7 filter works very well too:
> http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net/
>
> Although I didn't try it with sip, I use it to control my P2P and server
> applications and have a very usable ADSL link at almost 100% utilization of
> my upstream.

Does any of that include eMule traffic?  I stopped having success with eMule 
protocols and L7 a year or two ago and the pattern hasn't been updated in 
ages.

-- 

Jason Boxman
http://edseek.com/ - Linux and FOSS stuff

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Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[Marius Corici]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3012 bytes --]

About SIP: the traffic does not "jump" at a random port, it is another type
of traffic that you see afterwards, it's the RTP stream.
SIP is used only for signaling a session hence the name Session Initiation
Protocol. The SIP messages contain the IP Address + Port where the RTP flow
will appear. The RTP might not have the same IP address as the SIP
destination. If you want to prioritize SIP and RTP you can use your own SIP
Proxy (i'm using SER from www.iptel.org) with somekind of gateway (RTPPROXY
may be just enough for an end user).
By the way, if some SIP clients do not find port 5060 free, they choose
cvasi-randomly another port.

Marius

On 4/21/06, Francisco <ranmakun@arnet.com.ar> wrote:
>
> L7 filter works very well too:
> http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net/
>
> Although I didn't try it with sip, I use it to control my P2P and server
> applications and have a very usable ADSL link at almost 100% utilization
> of
> my upstream.
>
>
> El Martes, 18 de Abril de 2006 07:45, LinuXKiD escribió:
> > mmm... intresting....
> >
> > http://sipx-wiki.calivia.com/index.php/HowTo_configure_iptables
> >
> > ip_conntrack_sip
> >
> > Someone has tried it ?
> >
> > works on 2.4 kernel series ?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ->
> > ->
> > -> Hi I am pretty much a newbie, I found with sip if I match ports 5060
> and
> > -> 10000 - 20000 it works I noticed on some phones the use 13000 - 14000
> > and -> others use 18000 - 19000.  there is a new sip-contrack out
> although
> > I -> haven't tried it yet.
> > ->
> > -> william
> > ->
> > -> -----Original Message-----
> > -> From: lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl
> > -> [mailto:lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl]
> > -> On Behalf Of LinuXKiD
> > -> Sent: 17 April 2006 15:59
> > -> To: lartc
> > -> Subject: [LARTC] Sip Traffic
> > ->
> > ->
> > -> Hi.
> > ->
> > -> there is a way to MARK udp VOIP (SIP) traffic,
> > -> in order to put in a highest prio class ?
> > ->
> > -> Traffic flow seems start on udp 5060 port, but
> > -> next both server and client seems jump to a
> > -> random(?) port.
> > ->
> > -> I can't use CONNMARK because is udp traffic.
> > ->
> > -> I only see a pattern for L7 patch in order to
> > -> SIP traffic identification , but I run 2.4
> > -> kernel series .
> > ->
> > -> When you patch 2.4 kernel with L7 patch,
> > -> later, Connmark (patch o matic ) can't apply.
> > -> (conflicts)
> > ->
> > -> thank you.
> > -> --
> > -> Andres
> > -> _______________________________________________
> > -> LARTC mailing list
> > -> LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
> > -> http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
> > ->
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > LARTC mailing list
> > LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
> > http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
> _______________________________________________
> LARTC mailing list
> LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
> http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
>

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RE: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[LinuXKiD]

sounds good :-)

BTW,  someone  has tried  "ip_conntrack_sip" module from netfilter ????

(in order match and priorize VoIP Traffic ?  -SIP and RTP- )

thank you




-> -----Mensaje original-----
-> De: lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl
-> [mailto:lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl]En nombre de Francisco
-> Enviado el: Jueves, 20 de Abril de 2006 11:19 p.m.
-> Para: lartc@mailman.ds9a.nl
-> Asunto: Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic
->
->
-> L7 filter works very well too:
-> http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net/
->
-> Although I didn't try it with sip, I use it to control my P2P and server
-> applications and have a very usable ADSL link at almost 100%
-> utilization of
-> my upstream.
->
->
-> El Martes, 18 de Abril de 2006 07:45, LinuXKiD escribió:
-> > mmm... intresting....
-> >
-> > http://sipx-wiki.calivia.com/index.php/HowTo_configure_iptables
-> >
-> > ip_conntrack_sip
-> >
-> > Someone has tried it ?
-> >
-> > works on 2.4 kernel series ?
-> >
-> > thanks
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> Hi I am pretty much a newbie, I found with sip if I match
-> ports 5060 and
-> > -> 10000 - 20000 it works I noticed on some phones the use
-> 13000 - 14000
-> > and -> others use 18000 - 19000.  there is a new sip-contrack
-> out although
-> > I -> haven't tried it yet.
-> > ->
-> > -> william
-> > ->
-> > -> -----Original Message-----
-> > -> From: lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl
-> > -> [mailto:lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl]
-> > -> On Behalf Of LinuXKiD
-> > -> Sent: 17 April 2006 15:59
-> > -> To: lartc
-> > -> Subject: [LARTC] Sip Traffic
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> Hi.
-> > ->
-> > -> there is a way to MARK udp VOIP (SIP) traffic,
-> > -> in order to put in a highest prio class ?
-> > ->
-> > -> Traffic flow seems start on udp 5060 port, but
-> > -> next both server and client seems jump to a
-> > -> random(?) port.
-> > ->
-> > -> I can't use CONNMARK because is udp traffic.
-> > ->
-> > -> I only see a pattern for L7 patch in order to
-> > -> SIP traffic identification , but I run 2.4
-> > -> kernel series .
-> > ->
-> > -> When you patch 2.4 kernel with L7 patch,
-> > -> later, Connmark (patch o matic ) can't apply.
-> > -> (conflicts)
-> > ->
-> > -> thank you.
-> > -> --
-> > -> Andres
-> > -> _______________________________________________
-> > -> LARTC mailing list
-> > -> LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
-> > -> http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
-> > ->
-> >
-> > _______________________________________________
-> > LARTC mailing list
-> > LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
-> > http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
-> _______________________________________________
-> LARTC mailing list
-> LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
-> http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc

_______________________________________________
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RE: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[LinuXKiD]

-> About SIP: the traffic does not "jump" at a random port, it is 
-> another type of traffic that you see afterwards, it's the RTP stream.

OK!, Thank you. I understand.

-> SIP is used only for signaling a session hence the name Session 
-> Initiation Protocol. The SIP messages contain the IP Address + 
-> Port where the RTP flow will appear. The RTP might not have the 
-> same IP address as the SIP destination. If you want to 
-> prioritize SIP and RTP you can use your own SIP Proxy (i'm using 
-> SER from www.iptel.org) with somekind of gateway (RTPPROXY may 
-> be just enough for an end user). 

Ok, thank you. I'm newbie with VoIP . 

AFAIK , Ser is a router. But I need to priorize SIP traffic
on my (very)custom router linux.2.4.28. 
There is a way to integrate openSer with it ?

best regards

andres

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Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[Francisco]

eMule detection works very well, this has really changed the way I use my 
upload bandwidth.


El Jueves, 20 de Abril de 2006 23:25, Jason Boxman escribió:
> On Thursday 20 April 2006 22:19, Francisco wrote:
> > L7 filter works very well too:
> > http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net/
> >
> > Although I didn't try it with sip, I use it to control my P2P and server
> > applications and have a very usable ADSL link at almost 100% utilization
> > of my upstream.
>
> Does any of that include eMule traffic?  I stopped having success with
> eMule protocols and L7 a year or two ago and the pattern hasn't been
> updated in ages.
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RE: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[Greg Scott]

Why not just prioritize everything that comes to/from that SIP phone?  So forget about ports, just prioritize the IP Address?  Use the IP Address to identify traffic you want to move with elevated priority.  Just a thought...

- Greg
 

-----Original Message-----
From: lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl [mailto:lartc-bounces@mailman.ds9a.nl] On Behalf Of Francisco
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 10:17 PM
To: lartc@mailman.ds9a.nl
Subject: Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

eMule detection works very well, this has really changed the way I use my upload bandwidth.


El Jueves, 20 de Abril de 2006 23:25, Jason Boxman escribió:
> On Thursday 20 April 2006 22:19, Francisco wrote:
> > L7 filter works very well too:
> > http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net/
> >
> > Although I didn't try it with sip, I use it to control my P2P and server
> > applications and have a very usable ADSL link at almost 100% utilization
> > of my upstream.
>
> Does any of that include eMule traffic?  I stopped having success with
> eMule protocols and L7 a year or two ago and the pattern hasn't been
> updated in ages.
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Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[Marius Corici]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 374 bytes --]

>Why not just prioritize everything that comes to/from that SIP phone?  So
forget about ports, just prioritize the IP >Address?  Use the IP Address to
identify traffic you want to move with elevated priority.  Just a thought...

If we got to this, what if the end user is a laptop and wants to do e-mule
too? I am just asking, maybe there is an idea here...

Marius

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Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[chentschel]

Hi, 
        Why don\'t just use \"--helper sip\" extension in IPTABLES with ip_conntrack_sip loaded. That would see, and track RTP trafic in the machine. 

Please, if you do send me feed about the module. 
Thanks. 
CH.

Mensaje citado por: Marius Corici <coricim@gmail.com>:

> >Why not just prioritize everything that comes to/from that SIP phone?  So
> forget about ports, just prioritize the IP >Address?  Use the IP Address to
> identify traffic you want to move with elevated priority.  Just a
> thought..> .
>
> If we got to this, what if the end user is a laptop and wants to do e-mule
> too? I am just asking, maybe there is an idea here...
>
> Marius
> 

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RE: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[LinuXKiD]

This post is from Samuel Garcia. (thank you )

->
-> I tried it with kernel 2.6.15.x and many pom-ng patches and those modules
-> (conntrack and nat) hangs up the system.
->
-> I don't recommend it, at least for now over 2.6.x kernel series.
->
-> Regards
->








->
-> Hi,
->         Why don\'t just use \"--helper sip\" extension in
-> IPTABLES with ip_conntrack_sip loaded. That would see, and track
-> RTP trafic in the machine.
->
-> Please, if you do send me feed about the module.
-> Thanks.
-> CH.
->
-> Mensaje citado por: Marius Corici <coricim@gmail.com>:
->
-> > >Why not just prioritize everything that comes to/from that
-> SIP phone?  So
-> > forget about ports, just prioritize the IP >Address?  Use the
-> IP Address to
-> > identify traffic you want to move with elevated priority.  Just a
-> > thought..> .
-> >
-> > If we got to this, what if the end user is a laptop and wants
-> to do e-mule
-> > too? I am just asking, maybe there is an idea here...
-> >
-> > Marius
-> >
->
-> __________________________________
-> Registrate desde
http://servicios.arnet.com.ar/registracion/registracion.asp?origenid=9 y
participá de todos los beneficios del Portal Arnet.
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RE: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[chentschel]

Hi, well there\'s a line to change in ip_conntrack_sip.c. The \'hangup\' if because the ip_ct_refresh() function.

That\'s documented BTW in the netfilter list. I\'m sorry don\'t have the time to submit a patch to the netfilter svn. I\'ll try to do it. 

Cheers. 
Christian Hentschel

Mensaje citado por: LinuXKiD <gregoriandres@yahoo.com.ar>:

> 
> 
> This post is from Samuel Garcia. (thank you )
> 
> ->
> -> I tried it with kernel 2.6.15.x and many pom-ng patches and those
> modules
> -> (conntrack and nat) hangs up the system.
> ->
> -> I don\'t recommend it, at least for now over 2.6.x kernel series.
> ->
> -> Regards
> ->
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ->
> -> Hi,
> ->         Why don\\\'t just use \\\"--helper sip\\\" extension in
> -> IPTABLES with ip_conntrack_sip loaded. That would see, and track
> -> RTP trafic in the machine.
> ->
> -> Please, if you do send me feed about the module.
> -> Thanks.
> -> CH.
> ->
> -> Mensaje citado por: Marius Corici <coricim@gmail.com>:
> ->
> -> > >Why not just prioritize everything that comes to/from that
> -> SIP phone?  So
> -> > forget about ports, just prioritize the IP >Address?  Use the
> -> IP Address to
> -> > identify traffic you want to move with elevated priority.  Just a
> -> > thought..> .
> -> >
> -> > If we got to this, what if the end user is a laptop and wants
> -> to do e-mule
> -> > too? I am just asking, maybe there is an idea here...
> -> >
> -> > Marius
> -> >
> ->
> -> __________________________________
> -> Registrate desde
> http://servicios.arnet.com.ar/registracion/registracion.asp?origenid=9 y
> participá de todos los beneficios del Portal Arnet.
> _______________________________________________
> LARTC mailing list
> LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
> http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
> 
> _______________________________________________
> LARTC mailing list
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> 

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Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[sophana]

what about using a sip proxy?
I'm not sure, but the rtp traffic goes though the sip proxy does it?
then you can prioritize traffic with the sip proxy process user id 
(assuming that you can have a proxy on your router)

I have a much more basic question:
I installed a qos script based on wondershaper, which is htb based.
With voip, the result is not correct (I've lot of bandwidth with max prio)
How can I mix absolute priority (for voip) with htb?

Thanks

LinuXKiD wrote:

>Hi.
>
>there is a way to MARK udp VOIP (SIP) traffic,
>in order to put in a highest prio class ?
>
>Traffic flow seems start on udp 5060 port, but
>next both server and client seems jump to a 
>random(?) port.
>	
>I can't use CONNMARK because is udp traffic.
>
>I only see a pattern for L7 patch in order to 
>SIP traffic identification , but I run 2.4 
>kernel series . 
>
>When you patch 2.4 kernel with L7 patch,
>later, Connmark (patch o matic ) can't apply.
>(conflicts)
>
>thank you.
>--
>Andres 
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>
>  
>

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Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[Suresh Babu]

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I think RTP traffic doesn`t flow through SIP proxy. Only SIP packets flows
through SIP proxy and RTP traffic flows end to end.

correct me if i`m not.

Regards,
Suresh Babu


On 4/26/06, sophana <sophana@zizi.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> what about using a sip proxy?
> I'm not sure, but the rtp traffic goes though the sip proxy does it?
> then you can prioritize traffic with the sip proxy process user id
> (assuming that you can have a proxy on your router)
>
> I have a much more basic question:
> I installed a qos script based on wondershaper, which is htb based.
> With voip, the result is not correct (I've lot of bandwidth with max prio)
> How can I mix absolute priority (for voip) with htb?
>
> Thanks
>

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Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[sophana]

Suresh Babu wrote:

> I think RTP traffic doesn`t flow through SIP proxy. Only SIP packets 
> flows through SIP proxy and RTP traffic flows end to end.
>
> correct me if i`m not.
>
would it depend on the kind of sip proxy?
I thought that one of the sip proxy functions was to resolve rtp NAT 
problems.

>
>     I have a much more basic question:
>     I installed a qos script based on wondershaper, which is htb based.
>     With voip, the result is not correct (I've lot of bandwidth with
>     max prio)
>     How can I mix absolute priority (for voip) with htb?
>
>     Thanks
>
can someone please answer that (surely basic) question?
What structure should I have?
prio on top?

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Re: [LARTC] Sip Traffic

[Marius Corici]

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the RTP traffic does not go through the SIP Proxy. Some solutions to control
the voice traffic exist.
One is RTP Proxy which communicates with a SER (SIP Express Router) or
OpenSER and does as stated in the name, proxying for RTP. As a side efect
the outbound ports are known.
SIP Proxies do more then nat traversal (in fact this is one of the weak
points in the SIP Protocol). For more info read RFC 3261.

Marius

On 4/26/06, sophana <sophana@zizi.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> Suresh Babu wrote:
>
> > I think RTP traffic doesn`t flow through SIP proxy. Only SIP packets
> > flows through SIP proxy and RTP traffic flows end to end.
> >
> > correct me if i`m not.
> >
> would it depend on the kind of sip proxy?
> I thought that one of the sip proxy functions was to resolve rtp NAT
> problems.
>
> >
> >     I have a much more basic question:
> >     I installed a qos script based on wondershaper, which is htb based.
> >     With voip, the result is not correct (I've lot of bandwidth with
> >     max prio)
> >     How can I mix absolute priority (for voip) with htb?
> >
> >     Thanks
> >
> can someone please answer that (surely basic) question?
> What structure should I have?
> prio on top?
>
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> LARTC mailing list
> LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
> http://mailman.ds9a.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lartc
>

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