When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Eric Valette]

Hi,

I've been using nouveau driveau for 8 months or so, using automated
build from drm git, xf86-video-nouveau git and even sometimes mesa drm
git  and discovered the linux-core build did not build the nouveau
driver the hard way: X was refusing to start as the nouveau.ko modules
was not loaded nor build. Build process did chnage without obvious way
to know womething was wrong.

Then I tried to build it by hand as the nouveau directory is still there
but compilation fails! I wonder why the code is still in the tree as it
make me waste quite some time trying to find where the missing
definitions had gone.

After some hours of goggling I discovered there was an git kernel tree
for nouveau. Got the feeling from dri-devel posts it was supposed to be
merged for rc1, checked master tree and found it was not merged.

So my question are:
    - Why not purely delete nouveau files from linux-core and issue
error messages?
    - When will nouveau in kernel git tree be merged? I know the merge
windows is closed but that usually does not hold for new drivers

Thanks. Using nouveau is quite painfull. Please be aware that as
distribution move too slowly into nominal nouveau driver support, I'm
not probably the only guy lost in the dust.

-- eric


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Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Maarten Maathuis]

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Eric Valette<Eric.Valette-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Maarten Maathuis wrote:
>> This merging you probably read about, was merging 2.6.30-rc1 into the
>> nouveau tree, because that had upstream ttm support.
>>
> OK. I read it the other way round! I saw people complaining someone
> removed the support form drm fit without adding it anywhere else.
>> There were no plans (and there are still no plans) to merge nouveau,
>> simply because the code is still too untested and interfaces are still
>> changing.
>>
> And it will continue as long as it is difficult to compile it from
> source and it is not provided by distribution. So you are just hidding
> problem not solving them. There is a "staging" tree for unpolished
> drivers already in the kernel. The more people read the code and use,
> the more it will stabilize rapidly.
>> A merging tree would always be a personal tree, belonging to a single
>> person, not a public development tree like this.
>>
>> http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/InstallDRM lists several
>> installation options
>>
> Will try a soon as I get back home.
>> Also the frontpage was updated to reflect the changes. It also clearly
>> states the kernel tree is not upstreaming. Thanks to pq for all the
>> updating and the "compat" tree.
>>
>> I have and still am away, so i haven't tried it all, but it looks
>> quite ok from a distance.
>>
>> I know transations are not nice, but they had to be made for the sake
>> of the project. There is also no intent on rushing things into the
>> kernel before they are ready (i certainly hope not).
>>
> I beg to disagree on this point as the code is already used by people
> and some distrib maintainers.

Going into the kernel means having your interfaces frozen for many
many years. Don't forget that this new tree brings many changes
(memory manager and kms) and these need to be tested.

>> Maarten.
>>
>
>

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Pekka Paalanen]

On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 17:31:43 +0200
Maarten Maathuis <madman2003-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Eric Valette<Eric.Valette-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Maarten Maathuis wrote:
> >> There were no plans (and there are still no plans) to merge nouveau,
> >> simply because the code is still too untested and interfaces are still
> >> changing.
> >>
> > And it will continue as long as it is difficult to compile it from
> > source and it is not provided by distribution. So you are just hidding
> > problem not solving them. There is a "staging" tree for unpolished
> > drivers already in the kernel. The more people read the code and use,
> > the more it will stabilize rapidly.

Stabilization includes the developers being happy with the API first.
This is not true yet. Testing is essential only after that. To me
it seems there is a nice user base already, generating more bug reports
than there is developer power to solve.

-- 
Pekka Paalanen
http://www.iki.fi/pq/

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Eric Valette]

Pekka Paalanen wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 17:31:43 +0200
> Maarten Maathuis <madman2003-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Eric Valette<Eric.Valette-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> Maarten Maathuis wrote:
>>>> There were no plans (and there are still no plans) to merge nouveau,
>>>> simply because the code is still too untested and interfaces are still
>>>> changing.
>>>>
>>> And it will continue as long as it is difficult to compile it from
>>> source and it is not provided by distribution. So you are just hidding
>>> problem not solving them. There is a "staging" tree for unpolished
>>> drivers already in the kernel. The more people read the code and use,
>>> the more it will stabilize rapidly.
> 
> Stabilization includes the developers being happy with the API first.
> This is not true yet. Testing is essential only after that. To me
> it seems there is a nice user base already, generating more bug reports
> than there is developer power to solve.
> 

kde4 kwin not running using openGL as composing type is maybe my
favorite bug!

Then comes messa git nouveau being out of sync with the rest of nouveau code

-- eric

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Maarten Maathuis]

Noone has ever claimed working opengl, the only parts that are
supported, in the sense that you can file a bug about it, are the ddx
(2d) driver and the kernel module. Getting a useable memory manager in
place was a prerequisite, once that and the rest of the new kernel
code stabilizes i'm sure focus will shift. Until then, you are welcome
to help speed up the proces.

Maarten.

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Pekka Paalanen]

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:00:29 +0200
Eric Valette <Eric.Valette-rC/V9kRXU7Q@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I've been using nouveau driveau for 8 months or so, using automated
> build from drm git, xf86-video-nouveau git and even sometimes mesa drm
> git  and discovered the linux-core build did not build the nouveau
> driver the hard way: X was refusing to start as the nouveau.ko modules
> was not loaded nor build. Build process did chnage without obvious way
> to know womething was wrong.

Nouveau was removed from make targets, therefore you get this:

$ make nouveau.o
make: *** No rule to make target `nouveau.o'.  Stop.

The removal was done in a commit, that removed the old ttm code, and at
the same time broke the nouveau.ko build, hence nouveau is not a target
anymore.

The plain 'make' of course works, since there are other modules that
(supposedly) still work.

Btw. Nouveau should fall back to NoAccel mode, if the kernel modules are
not available.

> Then I tried to build it by hand as the nouveau directory is still there
> but compilation fails! I wonder why the code is still in the tree as it
> make me waste quite some time trying to find where the missing
> definitions had gone.

The nouveau directory?

> After some hours of goggling I discovered there was an git kernel tree
> for nouveau. Got the feeling from dri-devel posts it was supposed to be
> merged for rc1, checked master tree and found it was not merged.

I assume you refer to the discussion
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2009-June/003103.html

The only merge mentioned is newTTM, which went into -rc1 along with
the radeon KMS driver. Nouveau depends on newTTM, and we wanted it
upstream before setting up the master branch.

> So my question are:
>     - Why not purely delete nouveau files from linux-core and issue
> error messages?

The code is still in the tree for historical reference, and for BSDs.
I'm not sure if BSDs still need it.

>     - When will nouveau in kernel git tree be merged? I know the merge
> windows is closed but that usually does not hold for new drivers

This Nouveau kernel tree will never be merged from. A completely
separate git repository will be created for upstreaming Nouveau.
A proposition was made in
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2009-March/002765.html
and we are approximately following that. The precise development
model is still under discussion and has to be decided before
creating the upstreaming tree.

There's a good chance the upstreaming tree is created this year, and
Nouveau starts its journey into mainline, but first into staging.

> Thanks. Using nouveau is quite painfull. Please be aware that as
> distribution move too slowly into nominal nouveau driver support, I'm
> not probably the only guy lost in the dust.

Yes, and we are trying to alleviate the pain by keeping the guides
in the wiki up-to-date. Granted, there were the few days, when drm.git
nouveau.ko build was broken, and the InstallDRM page was not written
yet, nor InstallNouveau updated. IIRC that was less than a week.

Unfortunately, some people want to translate wiki pages to their
mother tongue, and then do not bother updating them for a long time.
The English pages contain the latest information.

This is the original announcement:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2009-June/003000.html
later we got master and master-compat branches up and deprecated
everything else. For further info, see
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2009-June/003134.html
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2009-July/003148.html
and the Nouveau wiki.

The nouveau kernel tree was annouced on the wiki front page, and on
the nouveau mailing list. What more should we have done?

-- 
Pekka Paalanen
http://www.iki.fi/pq/

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Eric Valette]

Pekka Paalanen wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:00:29 +0200
> Eric Valette <Eric.Valette-rC/V9kRXU7Q@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
>> I've been using nouveau driveau for 8 months or so, using automated
>> build from drm git, xf86-video-nouveau git and even sometimes mesa drm
>> git  and discovered the linux-core build did not build the nouveau
>> driver the hard way: X was refusing to start as the nouveau.ko modules
>> was not loaded nor build. Build process did chnage without obvious way
>> to know womething was wrong.
> 
> Nouveau was removed from make targets, therefore you get this:
> 
> $ make nouveau.o
> make: *** No rule to make target `nouveau.o'.  Stop.

Except this is not the way you build linux-core by default...

If you follow the Makefile and make DRM_MODULES=nouveau compilation
fails without telling you this is no more the right way.


> Btw. Nouveau should fall back to NoAccel mode, if the kernel modules are
> not available.

Not in my case. KDM simply does not start.

>> So my question are:
>>     - Why not purely delete nouveau files from linux-core and issue
>> error messages?
> 
> The code is still in the tree for historical reference, and for BSDs.
> I'm not sure if BSDs still need it.

Not a convincing agument!. I wasted a few hours trying to find how to
compile it.


> Yes, and we are trying to alleviate the pain by keeping the guides
> in the wiki up-to-date. Granted, there were the few days, when drm.git
> nouveau.ko build was broken, and the InstallDRM page was not written
> yet, nor InstallNouveau updated. IIRC that was less than a week.

Well I would suggest you to look at GALLIUM3D because using gi to clone
mesa master is not even working and even if you get a git snapshot it
does not build.


> The nouveau kernel tree was annouced on the wiki front page, and on
> the nouveau mailing list. What more should we have done?

I guess I would have done:
	- when configuring drm with the nouveau API, I would have issued a
warning that linux-core will no more build nouveau.ko
	- I would have purely removed the code now that it is no more used or
at least issed an error if DRM_MODULE was containing "nouveau"

-- eric

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Pekka Paalanen]

Sorry for causing that much trouble.

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:20:54 +0200
Eric Valette <eric.valette-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Well I would suggest you to look at GALLIUM3D because using gi to clone
> mesa master is not even working and even if you get a git snapshot it
> does not build.

http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/GalliumHowto
Is there something unclear here?

The same applies to the following, since Gallium3D is the one providing OpenGL.

> kde4 kwin not running using openGL as composing type is maybe my
> favorite bug!
> 
> Then comes messa git nouveau being out of sync with the rest of nouveau code

This is an open project with too few developers. If you want faster progress,
you should join. You already know the issues you want to tackle.

Also, I'd recommend studying git, you only ever have to 'clone' once.
Receiving updates is a lot faster. InstallDRM has the instructions, since
the kernel tree is so big, but there are more than one way to pull updates.

-- 
Pekka Paalanen
http://www.iki.fi/pq/

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Eric Valette]

Pekka Paalanen wrote:
> Sorry for causing that much trouble.
> 
> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:20:54 +0200
> Eric Valette <eric.valette-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
>> Well I would suggest you to look at GALLIUM3D because using gi to clone
>> mesa master is not even working and even if you get a git snapshot it
>> does not build.
> 
> http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/GalliumHowto
> Is there something unclear here?

The command
git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/mesa/mesa

Does not work for me while others do. It hangs indefinitely (I let it
run once half a day, doing strace to see that I was waiting to a read on
a socket).


> Also, I'd recommend studying git, you only ever have to 'clone' once.

If the full clone requires a day on 1Mbit sped, I guess you will have
few volunteers.

> Receiving updates is a lot faster.

I tool you in the first mail, I use drm git, xf86-video-nouveau git and
you still suggest I should learn how to use git? In my kernel udate
script I have git fetch ; git rebase origin for several trees. I ommited
mesa because of the bug


>  InstallDRM has the instructions, since
> the kernel tree is so big, but there are more than one way to pull updates.

I do not mind you use a whole kernel tree provide you provide automated
way to extract diff compared to the kernel you pull in. I've found the
tarball already but will rather extract the whole code and modify my
rather complex kernel update script to move original drm directory back
and forth for the sake of using still using ketchup, drm git update
xf86-video-nouveau git update  and regular kernel patching way.

-- eric

Re: [Nouveau] When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Sean Estabrooks]

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:51:23 +0200
Eric Valette <eric.valette@free.fr> wrote:

> The command
> git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/mesa/mesa
> 
> Does not work for me while others do. It hangs indefinitely (I let it
> run once half a day, doing strace to see that I was waiting to a read on
> a socket).
> 
> > Also, I'd recommend studying git, you only ever have to 'clone' once.
> 
> If the full clone requires a day on 1Mbit sped, I guess you will have
> few volunteers.

Eric,

Tried the clone of Mesa just now here and it took a little over 5 minutes
to complete.  So, something is wrong for you locally or a server problem
has been fixed since you last tried the clone.   Either way, this isn't
a fundamental problem with Git.

Cheers,
Sean

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Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Eric Valette]

Sean Estabrooks wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:51:23 +0200
> Eric Valette <eric.valette-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>   
>> The command
>> git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/mesa/mesa
>>
>> Does not work for me while others do. It hangs indefinitely (I let it
>> run once half a day, doing strace to see that I was waiting to a read on
>> a socket).
>>
>>     
>>> Also, I'd recommend studying git, you only ever have to 'clone' once.
>>>       
>> If the full clone requires a day on 1Mbit sped, I guess you will have
>> few volunteers.
>>     
>
> Eric,
>
> Tried the clone of Mesa just now here and it took a little over 5 minutes
> to complete.  So, something is wrong for you locally or a server problem
> has been fixed since you last tried the clone.  
If it a local problem, I dunno why because I access nearly all other git
tree on the planet including one located on the same IP address drm git
versus mesa git (git://anongit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa vs
git://anongit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/drm)
>  Either way, this isn't
> a fundamental problem with Git.
>   
Good. Will try today again.

BTW: I managed to build a mixed kernel (master 2.6.31-rc2-git4 + 2 DRM
directory from nouveau kernel git). It compiled and worked as long as I
relaunched the X kernel to use again the nouveau driver instead of nv
(and access the nouveau module). I then got a sync out of range on the
monitor. Removing the KMS mode fixed this but I'm not sure if it is not
due to the left over vesa framebuffer option or wrong computation of
monitor capabilities and bad video mode settings.

I need to remove the vesa framebuffer, put the KMS option gain and
report. It was just too late last night to try this.

-- eric

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Eric Valette]

> I need to remove the vesa framebuffer, put the KMS option gain and
> report. It was just too late last night to try this.

Doing this KMS works as expected. Then I got a problem with gallium3D
and removed it.

--eric

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Eric Valette]

Sean Estabrooks wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:51:23 +0200
> Eric Valette <eric.valette-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>   
>> The command
>> git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/mesa/mesa
>>
>> Does not work for me while others do. It hangs indefinitely (I let it
>> run once half a day, doing strace to see that I was waiting to a read on
>> a socket).
>>
>>     
BTW: looking at http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/, the lats commit
date look rather strange (-481 min). Negative time!

-- eric

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Eric Valette]

Sean Estabrooks wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:51:23 +0200
> Eric Valette <eric.valette-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
>> The command
>> git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/mesa/mesa
>>
>> Does not work for me while others do. It hangs indefinitely (I let it
>> run once half a day, doing strace to see that I was waiting to a read on
>> a socket).
>>
>>> Also, I'd recommend studying git, you only ever have to 'clone' once.
>> If the full clone requires a day on 1Mbit sped, I guess you will have
>> few volunteers.
> 
> Eric,
> 
> Tried the clone of Mesa just now here and it took a little over 5 minutes
> to complete.  So, something is wrong for you locally or a server problem
> has been fixed since you last tried the clone.   Either way, this isn't
> a fundamental problem with Git.

Tried again today and indeed it worked. Server was probably restarted...

-- eric

Re: When will nouveau kernel tree be merged into master

[Michel Dänzer]

On Thu, 2009-07-09 at 21:51 +0200, Eric Valette wrote:
> Pekka Paalanen wrote:
> > Sorry for causing that much trouble.
> > 
> > On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:20:54 +0200
> > Eric Valette <eric.valette@free.fr> wrote:
> > 
> >> Well I would suggest you to look at GALLIUM3D because using gi to clone
> >> mesa master is not even working and even if you get a git snapshot it
> >> does not build.
> > 
> > http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/GalliumHowto
> > Is there something unclear here?
> 
> The command
> git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/mesa/mesa
> 
> Does not work for me while others do. It hangs indefinitely (I let it
> run once half a day, doing strace to see that I was waiting to a read on
> a socket).

Maybe there's a firewall between you and anongit.freedesktop.org which
is filtering the Git port (9418/tcp).


-- 
Earthling Michel Dänzer           |                http://www.vmware.com
Libre software enthusiast         |          Debian, X and DRI developer
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