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From: Avi Kivity <avi@redhat.com>
To: Gleb Natapov <gleb@redhat.com>
Cc: kvm@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, mingo@elte.hu,
	a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl, tglx@linutronix.de, hpa@zytor.com,
	riel@redhat.com, cl@linux-foundation.org, mtosatti@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH v6 02/12] Halt vcpu if page it tries to access is swapped out.
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 20:30:18 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4CB0B4BA.5010901@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20101007174716.GD2397@redhat.com>

  On 10/07/2010 07:47 PM, Gleb Natapov wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 11:50:08AM +0200, Avi Kivity wrote:
> >   On 10/04/2010 05:56 PM, Gleb Natapov wrote:
> >  >If a guest accesses swapped out memory do not swap it in from vcpu thread
> >  >context. Schedule work to do swapping and put vcpu into halted state
> >  >instead.
> >  >
> >  >Interrupts will still be delivered to the guest and if interrupt will
> >  >cause reschedule guest will continue to run another task.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >+
> >  >+static bool can_do_async_pf(struct kvm_vcpu *vcpu)
> >  >+{
> >  >+	if (unlikely(!irqchip_in_kernel(vcpu->kvm) ||
> >  >+		     kvm_event_needs_reinjection(vcpu)))
> >  >+		return false;
> >  >+
> >  >+	return kvm_x86_ops->interrupt_allowed(vcpu);
> >  >+}
> >
> >  Strictly speaking, if the cpu can handle NMIs it can take an apf?
> >
> We can always do apf, but if vcpu can't do anything hwy bother. For NMI
> watchdog yes, may be it is worth to allow apf if nmi is allowed.

Actually it's very dangerous - the IRET from APF will re-enable NMIs.  
So without the guest enabling apf-in-nmi we shouldn't allow it.

Not worth the complexity IMO.

> >  >@@ -5112,6 +5122,13 @@ static int vcpu_enter_guest(struct kvm_vcpu *vcpu)
> >  >   	if (unlikely(r))
> >  >   		goto out;
> >  >
> >  >+	kvm_check_async_pf_completion(vcpu);
> >  >+	if (vcpu->arch.mp_state == KVM_MP_STATE_HALTED) {
> >  >+		/* Page is swapped out. Do synthetic halt */
> >  >+		r = 1;
> >  >+		goto out;
> >  >+	}
> >  >+
> >
> >  Why do it here in the fast path?  Can't you halt the cpu when
> >  starting the page fault?
> Page fault may complete before guest re-entry. We do not want to halt vcpu
> in this case.

So unhalt on completion.

> >
> >  I guess the apf threads can't touch mp_state, but they can have a
> >  KVM_REQ to trigger the check.
> This will require KVM_REQ check on fast path, so what's the difference
> performance wise.

We already have a KVM_REQ check (if (vcpu->requests)) so it doesn't cost 
anything extra.

> >  >
> >  >@@ -6040,6 +6064,7 @@ void kvm_arch_flush_shadow(struct kvm *kvm)
> >  >   int kvm_arch_vcpu_runnable(struct kvm_vcpu *vcpu)
> >  >   {
> >  >   	return vcpu->arch.mp_state == KVM_MP_STATE_RUNNABLE
> >  >+		|| !list_empty_careful(&vcpu->async_pf.done)
> >  >   		|| vcpu->arch.mp_state == KVM_MP_STATE_SIPI_RECEIVED
> >  >   		|| vcpu->arch.nmi_pending ||
> >  >   		(kvm_arch_interrupt_allowed(vcpu)&&
> >
> >  Unrelated, shouldn't kvm_arch_vcpu_runnable() look at
> >  vcpu->requests?  Specifically KVM_REQ_EVENT?
> I think KVM_REQ_EVENT is covered by checking nmi and interrupt queue
> here.

No, the nmi and interrupt queues are only filled when the lapic is 
polled via KVM_REQ_EVENT.  I'll prepare a patch.

> >  >+
> >  >+TRACE_EVENT(
> >  >+	kvm_async_pf_not_present,
> >  >+	TP_PROTO(u64 gva),
> >  >+	TP_ARGS(gva),
> >
> >  Do you actually have a gva with tdp?  With nested virtualization,
> >  how do you interpret this gva?
> With tdp it is gpa just like tdp_page_fault gets gpa where shadow page
> version gets gva. Nested virtualization is too complex to interpret.

It's not good to have a tracepoint that depends on cpu mode (without 
recording that mode). I think we have the same issue in 
trace_kvm_page_fault though.

> >  >+
> >  >+TRACE_EVENT(
> >  >+	kvm_async_pf_completed,
> >  >+	TP_PROTO(unsigned long address, struct page *page, u64 gva),
> >  >+	TP_ARGS(address, page, gva),
> >
> >  What does address mean?  There's also gva?
> >
> hva.

Is hva helpful here?  Generally gpa is better, but may not be available 
since it's ambiguous.

>
> >
> >  >+void kvm_clear_async_pf_completion_queue(struct kvm_vcpu *vcpu)
> >  >+{
> >  >+	/* cancel outstanding work queue item */
> >  >+	while (!list_empty(&vcpu->async_pf.queue)) {
> >  >+		struct kvm_async_pf *work =
> >  >+			list_entry(vcpu->async_pf.queue.next,
> >  >+				   typeof(*work), queue);
> >  >+		cancel_work_sync(&work->work);
> >  >+		list_del(&work->queue);
> >  >+		if (!work->page) /* work was canceled */
> >  >+			kmem_cache_free(async_pf_cache, work);
> >  >+	}
> >
> >  Are you holding any lock here?
> >
> >  If not, what protects vcpu->async_pf.queue?
> Nothing. It is accessed only from vcpu thread.
>
> >  If yes, cancel_work_sync() will need to aquire it too (in case work
> >  is running now and needs to take the lock, and cacncel_work_sync()
> >  needs to wait for it) ->  deadlock.
> >
> Work never touches this list.

So, an apf is always in ->queue and when completed also in ->done?

Is it not cleaner to list_move the apf from ->queue to ->done?  saves a 
->link.

Can be done later.

> >  >+
> >  >+	/* do alloc nowait since if we are going to sleep anyway we
> >  >+	   may as well sleep faulting in page */
> >  /*
> >   * multi
> >   * line
> >   * comment
> >   */
> >
> >  (but a good one, this is subtle)
> >
> >  I missed where you halt the vcpu.  Can you point me at the function?
> >
> >  Note this is a synthetic halt and must not be visible to live
> >  migration, or we risk live migrating a halted state which doesn't
> >  really exist.
> >
> >  Might be simplest to drain the apf queue on any of the save/restore ioctls.
> >
> So that "info cpu" will interfere with apf? Migration should work
> in regular way. apf state should not be migrated since it has no meaning
> on the destination. I'll make sure synthetic halt state will not
> interfere with migration.

If you deliver an apf, the guest expects a completion.

-- 
I have a truly marvellous patch that fixes the bug which this
signature is too narrow to contain.


WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Avi Kivity <avi@redhat.com>
To: Gleb Natapov <gleb@redhat.com>
Cc: kvm@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, mingo@elte.hu,
	a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl, tglx@linutronix.de, hpa@zytor.com,
	riel@redhat.com, cl@linux-foundation.org, mtosatti@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH v6 02/12] Halt vcpu if page it tries to access is swapped out.
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 20:30:18 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4CB0B4BA.5010901@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20101007174716.GD2397@redhat.com>

  On 10/07/2010 07:47 PM, Gleb Natapov wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 11:50:08AM +0200, Avi Kivity wrote:
> >   On 10/04/2010 05:56 PM, Gleb Natapov wrote:
> >  >If a guest accesses swapped out memory do not swap it in from vcpu thread
> >  >context. Schedule work to do swapping and put vcpu into halted state
> >  >instead.
> >  >
> >  >Interrupts will still be delivered to the guest and if interrupt will
> >  >cause reschedule guest will continue to run another task.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >+
> >  >+static bool can_do_async_pf(struct kvm_vcpu *vcpu)
> >  >+{
> >  >+	if (unlikely(!irqchip_in_kernel(vcpu->kvm) ||
> >  >+		     kvm_event_needs_reinjection(vcpu)))
> >  >+		return false;
> >  >+
> >  >+	return kvm_x86_ops->interrupt_allowed(vcpu);
> >  >+}
> >
> >  Strictly speaking, if the cpu can handle NMIs it can take an apf?
> >
> We can always do apf, but if vcpu can't do anything hwy bother. For NMI
> watchdog yes, may be it is worth to allow apf if nmi is allowed.

Actually it's very dangerous - the IRET from APF will re-enable NMIs.  
So without the guest enabling apf-in-nmi we shouldn't allow it.

Not worth the complexity IMO.

> >  >@@ -5112,6 +5122,13 @@ static int vcpu_enter_guest(struct kvm_vcpu *vcpu)
> >  >   	if (unlikely(r))
> >  >   		goto out;
> >  >
> >  >+	kvm_check_async_pf_completion(vcpu);
> >  >+	if (vcpu->arch.mp_state == KVM_MP_STATE_HALTED) {
> >  >+		/* Page is swapped out. Do synthetic halt */
> >  >+		r = 1;
> >  >+		goto out;
> >  >+	}
> >  >+
> >
> >  Why do it here in the fast path?  Can't you halt the cpu when
> >  starting the page fault?
> Page fault may complete before guest re-entry. We do not want to halt vcpu
> in this case.

So unhalt on completion.

> >
> >  I guess the apf threads can't touch mp_state, but they can have a
> >  KVM_REQ to trigger the check.
> This will require KVM_REQ check on fast path, so what's the difference
> performance wise.

We already have a KVM_REQ check (if (vcpu->requests)) so it doesn't cost 
anything extra.

> >  >
> >  >@@ -6040,6 +6064,7 @@ void kvm_arch_flush_shadow(struct kvm *kvm)
> >  >   int kvm_arch_vcpu_runnable(struct kvm_vcpu *vcpu)
> >  >   {
> >  >   	return vcpu->arch.mp_state == KVM_MP_STATE_RUNNABLE
> >  >+		|| !list_empty_careful(&vcpu->async_pf.done)
> >  >   		|| vcpu->arch.mp_state == KVM_MP_STATE_SIPI_RECEIVED
> >  >   		|| vcpu->arch.nmi_pending ||
> >  >   		(kvm_arch_interrupt_allowed(vcpu)&&
> >
> >  Unrelated, shouldn't kvm_arch_vcpu_runnable() look at
> >  vcpu->requests?  Specifically KVM_REQ_EVENT?
> I think KVM_REQ_EVENT is covered by checking nmi and interrupt queue
> here.

No, the nmi and interrupt queues are only filled when the lapic is 
polled via KVM_REQ_EVENT.  I'll prepare a patch.

> >  >+
> >  >+TRACE_EVENT(
> >  >+	kvm_async_pf_not_present,
> >  >+	TP_PROTO(u64 gva),
> >  >+	TP_ARGS(gva),
> >
> >  Do you actually have a gva with tdp?  With nested virtualization,
> >  how do you interpret this gva?
> With tdp it is gpa just like tdp_page_fault gets gpa where shadow page
> version gets gva. Nested virtualization is too complex to interpret.

It's not good to have a tracepoint that depends on cpu mode (without 
recording that mode). I think we have the same issue in 
trace_kvm_page_fault though.

> >  >+
> >  >+TRACE_EVENT(
> >  >+	kvm_async_pf_completed,
> >  >+	TP_PROTO(unsigned long address, struct page *page, u64 gva),
> >  >+	TP_ARGS(address, page, gva),
> >
> >  What does address mean?  There's also gva?
> >
> hva.

Is hva helpful here?  Generally gpa is better, but may not be available 
since it's ambiguous.

>
> >
> >  >+void kvm_clear_async_pf_completion_queue(struct kvm_vcpu *vcpu)
> >  >+{
> >  >+	/* cancel outstanding work queue item */
> >  >+	while (!list_empty(&vcpu->async_pf.queue)) {
> >  >+		struct kvm_async_pf *work =
> >  >+			list_entry(vcpu->async_pf.queue.next,
> >  >+				   typeof(*work), queue);
> >  >+		cancel_work_sync(&work->work);
> >  >+		list_del(&work->queue);
> >  >+		if (!work->page) /* work was canceled */
> >  >+			kmem_cache_free(async_pf_cache, work);
> >  >+	}
> >
> >  Are you holding any lock here?
> >
> >  If not, what protects vcpu->async_pf.queue?
> Nothing. It is accessed only from vcpu thread.
>
> >  If yes, cancel_work_sync() will need to aquire it too (in case work
> >  is running now and needs to take the lock, and cacncel_work_sync()
> >  needs to wait for it) ->  deadlock.
> >
> Work never touches this list.

So, an apf is always in ->queue and when completed also in ->done?

Is it not cleaner to list_move the apf from ->queue to ->done?  saves a 
->link.

Can be done later.

> >  >+
> >  >+	/* do alloc nowait since if we are going to sleep anyway we
> >  >+	   may as well sleep faulting in page */
> >  /*
> >   * multi
> >   * line
> >   * comment
> >   */
> >
> >  (but a good one, this is subtle)
> >
> >  I missed where you halt the vcpu.  Can you point me at the function?
> >
> >  Note this is a synthetic halt and must not be visible to live
> >  migration, or we risk live migrating a halted state which doesn't
> >  really exist.
> >
> >  Might be simplest to drain the apf queue on any of the save/restore ioctls.
> >
> So that "info cpu" will interfere with apf? Migration should work
> in regular way. apf state should not be migrated since it has no meaning
> on the destination. I'll make sure synthetic halt state will not
> interfere with migration.

If you deliver an apf, the guest expects a completion.

-- 
I have a truly marvellous patch that fixes the bug which this
signature is too narrow to contain.

--
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  reply	other threads:[~2010-10-09 18:31 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 176+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2010-10-04 15:56 [PATCH v6 00/12] KVM: Add host swap event notifications for PV guest Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56 ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 01/12] Add get_user_pages() variant that fails if major fault is required Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 02/12] Halt vcpu if page it tries to access is swapped out Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-05  1:20   ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-05  1:20     ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-05 14:59   ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-05 14:59     ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 10:50     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-06 10:50       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-06 10:52       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 10:52         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07  9:54         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07  9:54           ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 17:48           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 17:48             ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 11:15     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 11:15       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07  9:50   ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07  9:50     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07  9:52     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07  9:52       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 13:24     ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-07 13:24       ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-07 13:29       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 13:29         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 17:47     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 17:47       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-09 18:30       ` Avi Kivity [this message]
2010-10-09 18:30         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-09 18:32         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-09 18:32           ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10  7:30           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10  7:30             ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10  7:29         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10  7:29           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 15:55           ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 15:55             ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 15:56             ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 15:56               ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 16:17               ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 16:17                 ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 16:16             ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 16:16               ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 03/12] Retry fault before vmentry Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-05 15:54   ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-05 15:54     ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 11:07     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 11:07       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 14:20       ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 14:20         ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-07 18:44         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 18:44           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-08 16:07           ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-08 16:07             ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-07 12:29   ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 12:29     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 17:21     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 17:21       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-09 18:42       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-09 18:42         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10  7:35         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10  7:35           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 04/12] Add memory slot versioning and use it to provide fast guest write interface Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-05  1:29   ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-05  1:29     ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-05 16:57   ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-05 16:57     ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 11:14     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 11:14       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 14:38       ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 14:38         ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 20:08         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 20:08           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 10:00           ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 10:00             ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 15:42             ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-07 15:42               ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-07 16:03               ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 16:03                 ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 16:20                 ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 16:20                   ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 17:23                   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 17:23                     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 12:48                     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 12:48                       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 12:31   ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 12:31     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 05/12] Move kvm_smp_prepare_boot_cpu() from kvmclock.c to kvm.c Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 06/12] Add PV MSR to enable asynchronous page faults delivery Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 12:42   ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 12:42     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 17:53     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 17:53       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 12:47       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 12:47         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 13:27         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 13:27           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 12:58   ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 12:58     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 17:59     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 17:59       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-09 18:43       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-09 18:43         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 07/12] Add async PF initialization to PV guest Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-05  2:34   ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-05  2:34     ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-05 18:25   ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-05 18:25     ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 10:55     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 10:55       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 14:45       ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 14:45         ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 20:05         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 20:05           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 12:50   ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 12:50     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-08  7:54     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-08  7:54       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-09 18:44       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-09 18:44         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 08/12] Handle async PF in a guest Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 13:10   ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 13:10     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 17:14     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 17:14       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 17:18       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 17:18         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 17:48         ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-07 17:48           ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-07 18:03         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 18:03           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-09 18:48           ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-09 18:48             ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10  7:56             ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10  7:56               ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 12:40               ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 12:40                 ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 12:32     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 12:32       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 12:38       ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 12:38         ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-10 13:22         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 13:22           ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 09/12] Inject asynchronous page fault into a PV guest if page is swapped out Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-05  2:36   ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-05  2:36     ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-05 19:00   ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-05 19:00     ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 10:42     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 10:42       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 10/12] Handle async PF in non preemptable context Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-05 19:51   ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-05 19:51     ` Marcelo Tosatti
2010-10-06 10:41     ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-06 10:41       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 14:25       ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-10 14:25         ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 11/12] Let host know whether the guest can handle async PF in non-userspace context Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-07 13:36   ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-07 13:36     ` Avi Kivity
2010-10-04 15:56 ` [PATCH v6 12/12] Send async PF when guest is not in userspace too Gleb Natapov
2010-10-04 15:56   ` Gleb Natapov
2010-10-05  2:37   ` Rik van Riel
2010-10-05  2:37     ` Rik van Riel

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