[Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

Mainboards with 4 or even up to 7 PCIe x8 or x16 slots are available
today, and graphics cards with 3 to 5 outputs are also common.

Such a combination would make a very attractive classroom server
for up to 25 pupils/students, cheaper than any other solution,
much easier to administrate than a network of single-seat PC's,
and much faster w.r.t. graphics than a server with thin clients.
We would be highly interested in such a solution
(I'm a professor for computer science at a technical high school
and university of applied sciences),
and I'm currently investigating the possibilities for that.

Unfortunately, currently only Xephyr can be used for that,
which doesn't support hardware acceleration
(and hence makes e.g. Gnome 3 unhappy and video playback slow).

There once was a patch to allow one X server per graphics card
output:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=110388492307351
http://people.freedesktop.org/~airlied/multiseat/

However, this patch never made it to mainline
and no longer applies cleanly.


Now the question is:

* Are there any plans or activities to port these patches
to recent kernels? To include these patches or something similar
in the official linux kernel any time soon?

* How much work (and how complex/difficult) would it be to port
these patches to the current linux kernel?
Could that be assigned to a student?

* Is there anyone who is experienced in that area of the kernel
and would implement that (and push it to the official kernel),
perhaps with some financial support (how much would that cost)?


I'd just need the base functionality:

* Static configuration of render devices (via kernel boot parameter?)
or even just one hardcoded device / X server per graphics card output,
no need to assign devices to output combinations dynamically.

(perhaps being able to assign symbolic links to the device nodes
based on card and output number with udev would be nice)

* No need to have any gdm / consolekit support for that.

* ATI radeon only.


Background:
The competition is offering exactly that to us:
The beast is called "Microsoft MultiPoint Server". It is a product
created especially for the educational market (and seems to be quite
successful there), but also offered for small offices.

Technically, it is a multi-user Windows server supporting up to 20
local users, each user being assigned one port of a local graphics card
(or one USB graphics card) and a USB keyboard and mouse.

It explicitely provides one user per graphics output port,
not just per card, exactly what I would like to have for linux.

So I'd need some linux equivalent to compete with that w.r.t.
number of seats per PC/server to get a linux classroom installed
at our school instead of Windows...


Many thanks in advance for your help!

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Dave Airlie]

> There once was a patch to allow one X server per graphics card
> output:
> http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=110388492307351
> http://people.freedesktop.org/~airlied/multiseat/
>
> However, this patch never made it to mainline
> and no longer applies cleanly.
>
>
> Now the question is:
>
> * Are there any plans or activities to port these patches
> to recent kernels? To include these patches or something similar
> in the official linux kernel any time soon?

Nothing in my plans, I did a proof of concept to show how someone
should do things, I'd sort of hoped some of the people who dedicate
time to fixing multiseat and cared about it would pick things up and
run with them, it really does need a proper ioctl or configfs
configuration interface since any static setup will invariable be
wrong for 50% of people, and any kernel commandline interface will
invariably be ugly and complex in order to solve the problem.

I could envisage some sort of configfs where you echo 5 > num_seats
then echo VGA-1 > seat1, etc.

Then you could just write some scripts per machine if you don't want
gdm/consolekit support.

>
> * How much work (and how complex/difficult) would it be to port
> these patches to the current linux kernel?
> Could that be assigned to a student?

As I said porting it isn't the problem, doing it correctly is the
problem. A decent student could probably pick it up and run with it,
it really depends on the person. I can provide some guidance but
they'd have to be fairly self-starting.

>
> * Is there anyone who is experienced in that area of the kernel
> and would implement that (and push it to the official kernel),
> perhaps with some financial support (how much would that cost)?

Not me, my interest in multi-seat has taken a diversion into fixing
something else, I might get back to it in a year or so.

Dave.

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

On 2011-07-31 22:09, Dave Airlie wrote:
>> * Are there any plans or activities to port these patches
>> to recent kernels? To include these patches or something similar
>> in the official linux kernel any time soon?
>
> Nothing in my plans, I did a proof of concept to show how someone
> should do things, I'd sort of hoped some of the people who dedicate
> time to fixing multiseat and cared about it would pick things up and
> run with them, it really does need a proper ioctl or configfs

Is there any mailing list for the technical aspects of multiseat linux?
Who and where are the relevant developers?

Klaus.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

On 2011-07-31 22:09, Dave Airlie wrote:
>> There once was a patch to allow one X server per graphics card
>> output:
>> http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=110388492307351
>> http://people.freedesktop.org/~airlied/multiseat/
>>
>> However, this patch never made it to mainline
>> and no longer applies cleanly.
>>
>> Now the question is:
>>
>> * Are there any plans or activities to port these patches
>> to recent kernels? To include these patches or something similar
>> in the official linux kernel any time soon?
>
> Nothing in my plans, I did a proof of concept to show how someone
> should do things, I'd sort of hoped some of the people who dedicate
> time to fixing multiseat and cared about it would pick things up and
> run with them, it really does need a proper ioctl or configfs
> configuration interface since any static setup will invariable be
> wrong for 50% of people, and any kernel commandline interface will
> invariably be ugly and complex in order to solve the problem.
>
> I could envisage some sort of configfs where you echo 5>  num_seats
> then echo VGA-1>  seat1, etc.
>
> Then you could just write some scripts per machine if you don't want
> gdm/consolekit support.

Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always creates
one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
without any need for configuration or device assignment.

If a single X server wants to control several outputs,
libdrm should open the corresponding number of devices in parallel.
We already have both static X configuration and xrandr for configuring
that, and if the devices allow only a single open,
this would also arbitrate outputs between servers
(a server can't open an output which is already taken).

Klaus.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Dave Airlie]

>
> Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
> To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always creates
> one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
> without any need for configuration or device assignment.

It just doesn't fit in with how the drm device nodes work, like it might seem
simpler in the kernel but I think it would just complicate userspace.

> If a single X server wants to control several outputs,
> libdrm should open the corresponding number of devices in parallel.
> We already have both static X configuration and xrandr for configuring
> that, and if the devices allow only a single open,
> this would also arbitrate outputs between servers
> (a server can't open an output which is already taken).

I haven't decided it couldn't work but I'd need a working
implementation to even consider merging it, where I've already done a
demo of how I think it should work, which means I don't have to
revalidate things if someone were to complete it.

Dave.

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Alan Cox]

On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:47:42 +0100
Dave Airlie <airlied@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
> > To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always creates
> > one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
> > without any need for configuration or device assignment.
> 
> It just doesn't fit in with how the drm device nodes work, like it might seem
> simpler in the kernel but I think it would just complicate userspace.

It also doesn't fit some cases of reality (eg the USB displaylink stuff)
where the output and the GPU are effectively decoupled.

There are also some interesting security issues with a lot of GPUs where
you'd be very very hard pushed to stop one task spying on the display of
another as there isn't much in the way of MMU contexts on the GPU side.

Alan

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

On 2011-08-01 22:22, Alan Cox wrote:
> There are also some interesting security issues with a lot of GPUs where
> you'd be very very hard pushed to stop one task spying on the display of
> another as there isn't much in the way of MMU contexts on the GPU side.
>
> Alan

But I believe this is a problem of all approaches which provide
multiple hardware-accelerated (or Xv-enabled) seats on a single GPU,
no matter if based on multiple DRM devices, on Xephyr or Xnest
with some kind of OpenGL or DRI passthrough, or on Wayland:
If one has direct access to the graphics engine, he also can access
any video memory he wants.

Hence, that's no argument against multiple DRM devices on a single card,
because the other solutions suffer from the same problem.

In the long term, it needs to be fixed,
but in a classroom environment, that's not my primary concern
(and I believe 90 % of all multiseat installations
will be classroom or home environments).

Klaus.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Alan Cox]

> But I believe this is a problem of all approaches which provide
> multiple hardware-accelerated (or Xv-enabled) seats on a single GPU,
> no matter if based on multiple DRM devices, on Xephyr or Xnest
> with some kind of OpenGL or DRI passthrough, or on Wayland:
> If one has direct access to the graphics engine, he also can access
> any video memory he wants.

Not always. It's a bit more complicated than that. Some hardware supports
write only memory spaces, some hardware supports contexts in the GTT). On
other cards you need some kind of security model and verifier to handle
this. I don't think reloading the GTT is enough on most of the cards
because the display scanout for all the framebuffers is needed all the
time.

> Hence, that's no argument against multiple DRM devices on a single card,
> because the other solutions suffer from the same problem.

Displaylink USB devices don't have this problem - they have others. Ditto
mulitple graphics cards doesn't.

> In the long term, it needs to be fixed,
> but in a classroom environment, that's not my primary concern
> (and I believe 90 % of all multiseat installations
> will be classroom or home environments).

Certainly with such security limits it won't catch on in many places, and
I suspect it wouldn't be much use in many classroom environments students
being what they are!

Alan

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Rafał Miłecki]

2011/8/2 Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
>> But I believe this is a problem of all approaches which provide
>> multiple hardware-accelerated (or Xv-enabled) seats on a single GPU,
>> no matter if based on multiple DRM devices, on Xephyr or Xnest
>> with some kind of OpenGL or DRI passthrough, or on Wayland:
>> If one has direct access to the graphics engine, he also can access
>> any video memory he wants.
>
> Not always. It's a bit more complicated than that. Some hardware supports
> write only memory spaces, some hardware supports contexts in the GTT). On
> other cards you need some kind of security model and verifier to handle
> this. I don't think reloading the GTT is enough on most of the cards
> because the display scanout for all the framebuffers is needed all the
> time.

I believe you respond to Klaus Kusche here?

Klaus: please, CC mailing list so everyone can see your messages.

-- 
Rafał
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Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

On 2011-08-02 12:28, Rafał Miłecki wrote:
> 2011/8/2 Alan Cox<alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
>>> But I believe this is a problem of all approaches which provide
>>> multiple hardware-accelerated (or Xv-enabled) seats on a single GPU,
>>> no matter if based on multiple DRM devices, on Xephyr or Xnest
>>> with some kind of OpenGL or DRI passthrough, or on Wayland:
>>> If one has direct access to the graphics engine, he also can access
>>> any video memory he wants.
>>
>> Not always. It's a bit more complicated than that. Some hardware supports
>> write only memory spaces, some hardware supports contexts in the GTT). On
>> other cards you need some kind of security model and verifier to handle
>> this. I don't think reloading the GTT is enough on most of the cards
>> because the display scanout for all the framebuffers is needed all the
>> time.
>
> I believe you respond to Klaus Kusche here?
>
> Klaus: please, CC mailing list so everyone can see your messages.

My mail Alan cited above was CC'd to the list.
No idea where it got eaten.
Is there some spam filter filtering list postings?

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

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Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Michel Dänzer]

On Die, 2011-08-02 at 13:10 +0200, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche wrote: 
> On 2011-08-02 12:28, Rafał Miłecki wrote:
> > 2011/8/2 Alan Cox<alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
> >>> But I believe this is a problem of all approaches which provide
> >>> multiple hardware-accelerated (or Xv-enabled) seats on a single GPU,
> >>> no matter if based on multiple DRM devices, on Xephyr or Xnest
> >>> with some kind of OpenGL or DRI passthrough, or on Wayland:
> >>> If one has direct access to the graphics engine, he also can access
> >>> any video memory he wants.
> >>
> >> Not always. It's a bit more complicated than that. Some hardware supports
> >> write only memory spaces, some hardware supports contexts in the GTT). On
> >> other cards you need some kind of security model and verifier to handle
> >> this. I don't think reloading the GTT is enough on most of the cards
> >> because the display scanout for all the framebuffers is needed all the
> >> time.
> >
> > I believe you respond to Klaus Kusche here?
> >
> > Klaus: please, CC mailing list so everyone can see your messages.
> 
> My mail Alan cited above was CC'd to the list.
> No idea where it got eaten.
> Is there some spam filter filtering list postings?

There's a moderation queue for posts from addresses that aren't
subscribed to the list.


-- 
Earthling Michel Dänzer           |                   http://www.amd.com
Libre software enthusiast         |          Debian, X and DRI developer
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Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

On 2011-08-02 12:26, Alan Cox wrote:
>> Hence, that's no argument against multiple DRM devices on a single card,
>> because the other solutions suffer from the same problem.
>
> Displaylink USB devices don't have this problem - they have others. Ditto
> mulitple graphics cards doesn't.

Multiple single-seat graphics cards won't allow me to connect 15-25
users to one PC / server, and the main goal is to have a whole
classroom on a *single* machine: No network and file sharing
to configure, no remote software distribution and updates to manage,
no remote authentication, no boot from net, ...

And chances are that the machine has to be dual boot with Microsoft
Multipoint Server.

15-25 USB graphics devices might work technically, but they will be
much slower than the unaccelerated solution with multi-output
graphics cards and Xephyr's, perhaps even slower than thin clients
(given that they are all USB 2 and the total USB 2 bandwidth is
quite limited).

>> In the long term, it needs to be fixed,
>> but in a classroom environment, that's not my primary concern
>> (and I believe 90 % of all multiseat installations
>> will be classroom or home environments).
>
> Certainly with such security limits it won't catch on in many places, and
> I suspect it wouldn't be much use in many classroom environments students
> being what they are!

Such configurations will be rare and will have different hardware and
software. I doubt that someone will publish a ready-to-run exploit
which works out of the box on all of them. Hence, exploiting this
will require some technical intelligence. I don't believe that
pupils and students in the basic courses have that
(and we're not talking about graduate courses).

And what would they get? Their neighbour's screen contents.
They could just as easily look at their neighbour's screen directly.
And as long as I do not run individual VM's with strict firewalling
on the host OS, they will find other ways to exchange information
(or sabotage each other) anyway, by IPC or whatever...

I've been told that it is almost impossible to completely block
information exchange between pupils on Microsoft Multipoint Server
even on naive levels, too, and nevertheless that product is selling
well...

So the security aspect is something to keep in mind,
but not something which excludes a shared-graphics-card solution
a priori.

Klaus.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Christoph Bumiller]

On 08/01/2011 10:22 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:47:42 +0100
> Dave Airlie <airlied@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
>>> To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always creates
>>> one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
>>> without any need for configuration or device assignment.
>>
>> It just doesn't fit in with how the drm device nodes work, like it might seem
>> simpler in the kernel but I think it would just complicate userspace.
> 
> It also doesn't fit some cases of reality (eg the USB displaylink stuff)
> where the output and the GPU are effectively decoupled.
> 
> There are also some interesting security issues with a lot of GPUs where
> you'd be very very hard pushed to stop one task spying on the display of
> another as there isn't much in the way of MMU contexts on the GPU side.
> 

Actually, >= GeForce8 have proper (and working) virtual memory, i.e.
per-context page directory and page tables.

> Alan
> _______________________________________________
> dri-devel mailing list
> dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/dri-devel

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Alex Deucher]

On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
<klaus.kusche@computerix.info> wrote:
> On 2011-07-31 22:09, Dave Airlie wrote:
>>>
>>> There once was a patch to allow one X server per graphics card
>>> output:
>>> http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=110388492307351
>>> http://people.freedesktop.org/~airlied/multiseat/
>>>
>>> However, this patch never made it to mainline
>>> and no longer applies cleanly.
>>>
>>> Now the question is:
>>>
>>> * Are there any plans or activities to port these patches
>>> to recent kernels? To include these patches or something similar
>>> in the official linux kernel any time soon?
>>
>> Nothing in my plans, I did a proof of concept to show how someone
>> should do things, I'd sort of hoped some of the people who dedicate
>> time to fixing multiseat and cared about it would pick things up and
>> run with them, it really does need a proper ioctl or configfs
>> configuration interface since any static setup will invariable be
>> wrong for 50% of people, and any kernel commandline interface will
>> invariably be ugly and complex in order to solve the problem.
>>
>> I could envisage some sort of configfs where you echo 5>  num_seats
>> then echo VGA-1>  seat1, etc.
>>
>> Then you could just write some scripts per machine if you don't want
>> gdm/consolekit support.
>
> Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
> To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always creates
> one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
> without any need for configuration or device assignment.

You almost always have more connectors than display controllers (e.g.,
you might have displayport, svideo, DVI-I and VGA, but only two
display controllers so you can only use two of the connectors at any
time).  Also certain combinations of connectors are not possible
depending on the hw (e.g., the svideo and the VGA port may share the
same DAC, so you can only use one or the other at the same time).

Alex

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

On 2011-08-02 14:59, Alex Deucher wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
> <klaus.kusche@computerix.info>  wrote:
>> Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
>> To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always creates
>> one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
>> without any need for configuration or device assignment.
>
> You almost always have more connectors than display controllers (e.g.,
> you might have displayport, svideo, DVI-I and VGA, but only two
> display controllers so you can only use two of the connectors at any
> time).  Also certain combinations of connectors are not possible
> depending on the hw (e.g., the svideo and the VGA port may share the
> same DAC, so you can only use one or the other at the same time).

Hmmm, for my purposes I was only thinking about new, current hardware,
not about previous-generation cards, and only about digital outputs:

* The professional, high-quality solution would be ATI's FirePro 2460:
4 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot
(passive cooling, < 20 W, so that's a great energy saver, too,
competing with thin and zero clients,
and it's silent and long-lived)

* The XFX HD-677X-Z5F3 most likely offers most ports per Euro and space:
5 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot,
for less than 100 Euro

(this would result in 16/20 seats with any quad-crossfire mainboard
and 28/35 seats with some server mainboards if the BIOS is able
to assign addresses to 7 graphics cards)

Even the low-cost 6450 supports 3 and the 6570 supports 4
independent simultaneous outputs, so any ATI 6xxx card can drive
all its outputs at the same time
(and I believe that was also true for ATI 5xxx)
However, cards with 3 or 4 digital outputs are hard to find
in that price range... (XFX HD6570 is one of them)

But you're correct, my suggestion above needs to be refined:
One DRI device per display controller.

Klaus.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Alex Deucher]

On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
<klaus.kusche@computerix.info> wrote:
> On 2011-08-02 14:59, Alex Deucher wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
>> <klaus.kusche@computerix.info>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
>>> To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always creates
>>> one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
>>> without any need for configuration or device assignment.
>>
>> You almost always have more connectors than display controllers (e.g.,
>> you might have displayport, svideo, DVI-I and VGA, but only two
>> display controllers so you can only use two of the connectors at any
>> time).  Also certain combinations of connectors are not possible
>> depending on the hw (e.g., the svideo and the VGA port may share the
>> same DAC, so you can only use one or the other at the same time).
>
> Hmmm, for my purposes I was only thinking about new, current hardware,
> not about previous-generation cards, and only about digital outputs:
>
> * The professional, high-quality solution would be ATI's FirePro 2460:
> 4 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot
> (passive cooling, < 20 W, so that's a great energy saver, too,
> competing with thin and zero clients,
> and it's silent and long-lived)
>
> * The XFX HD-677X-Z5F3 most likely offers most ports per Euro and space:
> 5 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot,
> for less than 100 Euro
>
> (this would result in 16/20 seats with any quad-crossfire mainboard
> and 28/35 seats with some server mainboards if the BIOS is able
> to assign addresses to 7 graphics cards)
>
> Even the low-cost 6450 supports 3 and the 6570 supports 4
> independent simultaneous outputs, so any ATI 6xxx card can drive
> all its outputs at the same time
> (and I believe that was also true for ATI 5xxx)
> However, cards with 3 or 4 digital outputs are hard to find
> in that price range... (XFX HD6570 is one of them)
>
> But you're correct, my suggestion above needs to be refined:
> One DRI device per display controller.

Even then it gets a little tricky.  AMD cards are fairly flexible, but
some other cards may have restrictions about which encoders can be
driven by which display controllers.  Then how do you decide which
display controller gets assigned to which connector(s)?  You also need
to factor in things like memory bandwidth.  E.g., a low end card may
not be able to drive four huge displays properly, but can drive four
smaller displays.

Alex

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

On 2011-08-02 16:34, Alex Deucher wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
> <klaus.kusche@computerix.info>  wrote:
>> On 2011-08-02 14:59, Alex Deucher wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
>>> <klaus.kusche@computerix.info>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
>>>> To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always creates
>>>> one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
>>>> without any need for configuration or device assignment.
>>>
>>> You almost always have more connectors than display controllers (e.g.,
>>> you might have displayport, svideo, DVI-I and VGA, but only two
>>> display controllers so you can only use two of the connectors at any
>>> time).  Also certain combinations of connectors are not possible
>>> depending on the hw (e.g., the svideo and the VGA port may share the
>>> same DAC, so you can only use one or the other at the same time).
>>
>> Hmmm, for my purposes I was only thinking about new, current hardware,
>> not about previous-generation cards, and only about digital outputs:
>>
>> * The professional, high-quality solution would be ATI's FirePro 2460:
>> 4 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot
>> (passive cooling,<  20 W, so that's a great energy saver, too,
>> competing with thin and zero clients,
>> and it's silent and long-lived)
>>
>> * The XFX HD-677X-Z5F3 most likely offers most ports per Euro and space:
>> 5 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot,
>> for less than 100 Euro
>>
>> (this would result in 16/20 seats with any quad-crossfire mainboard
>> and 28/35 seats with some server mainboards if the BIOS is able
>> to assign addresses to 7 graphics cards)
>>
>> Even the low-cost 6450 supports 3 and the 6570 supports 4
>> independent simultaneous outputs, so any ATI 6xxx card can drive
>> all its outputs at the same time
>> (and I believe that was also true for ATI 5xxx)
>> However, cards with 3 or 4 digital outputs are hard to find
>> in that price range... (XFX HD6570 is one of them)
>>
>> But you're correct, my suggestion above needs to be refined:
>> One DRI device per display controller.
>
> Even then it gets a little tricky.  AMD cards are fairly flexible, but
> some other cards may have restrictions about which encoders can be
> driven by which display controllers.  Then how do you decide which
> display controller gets assigned to which connector(s)?  You also need
> to factor in things like memory bandwidth.  E.g., a low end card may
> not be able to drive four huge displays properly, but can drive four
> smaller displays.

What is your suggestion to "do things right"?
How would you assign DRI device nodes to multiple monitors?
Do you have better suggestions for building multi-seat systems
beyond 4 seats with 4 single-output cards?

How does xrandr currently solve those problems?
It might also "see" more outputs than there are display controllers,
it has the same job of assigning connectors to display controllers,
and it also has the problem that setting all outputs to their
maximum resolution might cause the card to run out of memory bandwidth.
So either the logic needed is already there,
or the problems are not multiseat-specific,
but affect today's multi-screen environments in general.

I think there is no need to do better than xrandr currently does.
In fact, that's the multiseat solution we have today:
Configure one X server (most likely using xrandr) with one huge display
spanning all the outputs and monitors connected to one card,
and start one Xephyr per monitor and user within that display.
This just lacks any acceleration and Xv.

(the fact that xrandr already seems to handle most of this
was one of the reasons why I suggested that the kernel should just
export every output the hardware offers to userland: I believed
that the userland already knows how to allocate and configure outputs,
and the only thing missing is the ability to access the same card
from more than one X server or to assign the outputs of one card
to two or more X servers)

I also believe and accept that there will be no solution
supporting all graphics cards existing today and 10 years back.
Only some cards offer KMS, only some cards offer 3D acceleration,
some older cards don't even offer dual-screen support for one X server,
only some cards will offer multi-seat support in future.
If somebody wants to build a high-density shared-card multiseat system,
he has to choose suitable hardware.

Microsoft Multipoint Server also depends on the driver of the card
to be able to configure all the outputs simultaneously - some cards do,
other's don't.

Klaus.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Alex Deucher]

On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
<klaus.kusche@computerix.info> wrote:
> On 2011-08-02 16:34, Alex Deucher wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
>> <klaus.kusche@computerix.info>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2011-08-02 14:59, Alex Deucher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
>>>> <klaus.kusche@computerix.info>    wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
>>>>> To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always
>>>>> creates
>>>>> one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
>>>>> without any need for configuration or device assignment.
>>>>
>>>> You almost always have more connectors than display controllers (e.g.,
>>>> you might have displayport, svideo, DVI-I and VGA, but only two
>>>> display controllers so you can only use two of the connectors at any
>>>> time).  Also certain combinations of connectors are not possible
>>>> depending on the hw (e.g., the svideo and the VGA port may share the
>>>> same DAC, so you can only use one or the other at the same time).
>>>
>>> Hmmm, for my purposes I was only thinking about new, current hardware,
>>> not about previous-generation cards, and only about digital outputs:
>>>
>>> * The professional, high-quality solution would be ATI's FirePro 2460:
>>> 4 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot
>>> (passive cooling,<  20 W, so that's a great energy saver, too,
>>> competing with thin and zero clients,
>>> and it's silent and long-lived)
>>>
>>> * The XFX HD-677X-Z5F3 most likely offers most ports per Euro and space:
>>> 5 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot,
>>> for less than 100 Euro
>>>
>>> (this would result in 16/20 seats with any quad-crossfire mainboard
>>> and 28/35 seats with some server mainboards if the BIOS is able
>>> to assign addresses to 7 graphics cards)
>>>
>>> Even the low-cost 6450 supports 3 and the 6570 supports 4
>>> independent simultaneous outputs, so any ATI 6xxx card can drive
>>> all its outputs at the same time
>>> (and I believe that was also true for ATI 5xxx)
>>> However, cards with 3 or 4 digital outputs are hard to find
>>> in that price range... (XFX HD6570 is one of them)
>>>
>>> But you're correct, my suggestion above needs to be refined:
>>> One DRI device per display controller.
>>
>> Even then it gets a little tricky.  AMD cards are fairly flexible, but
>> some other cards may have restrictions about which encoders can be
>> driven by which display controllers.  Then how do you decide which
>> display controller gets assigned to which connector(s)?  You also need
>> to factor in things like memory bandwidth.  E.g., a low end card may
>> not be able to drive four huge displays properly, but can drive four
>> smaller displays.
>
> What is your suggestion to "do things right"?
> How would you assign DRI device nodes to multiple monitors?
> Do you have better suggestions for building multi-seat systems
> beyond 4 seats with 4 single-output cards?
>
> How does xrandr currently solve those problems?
> It might also "see" more outputs than there are display controllers,
> it has the same job of assigning connectors to display controllers,
> and it also has the problem that setting all outputs to their
> maximum resolution might cause the card to run out of memory bandwidth.
> So either the logic needed is already there,
> or the problems are not multiseat-specific,
> but affect today's multi-screen environments in general.
>
> I think there is no need to do better than xrandr currently does.
> In fact, that's the multiseat solution we have today:
> Configure one X server (most likely using xrandr) with one huge display
> spanning all the outputs and monitors connected to one card,
> and start one Xephyr per monitor and user within that display.
> This just lacks any acceleration and Xv.
>
> (the fact that xrandr already seems to handle most of this
> was one of the reasons why I suggested that the kernel should just
> export every output the hardware offers to userland: I believed
> that the userland already knows how to allocate and configure outputs,
> and the only thing missing is the ability to access the same card
> from more than one X server or to assign the outputs of one card
> to two or more X servers)

Some drivers can already do this (the radeon driver at least).  google
for zaphod mode.  You basically start one instance of the driver for
each display controller and then assign which randr outputs are used
by each instance of the driver.  It already works and supports
acceleration.  The problem is, each instance shows up as an X protocol
screen rather than a separate X server so, you'd have to fix the input
side.

>
> I also believe and accept that there will be no solution
> supporting all graphics cards existing today and 10 years back.
> Only some cards offer KMS, only some cards offer 3D acceleration,
> some older cards don't even offer dual-screen support for one X server,
> only some cards will offer multi-seat support in future.
> If somebody wants to build a high-density shared-card multiseat system,
> he has to choose suitable hardware.

Even if you only support KMS supported hardware which seems reasonable
to me, you still have a lot of cards out there with interesting
display configurations.  We still make cards with DVI and VGA ports on
them or more connectors than display controllers.  You don't really
want to go through the whole effort if it only works on a handful of
special cards.  It wouldn't take that much more work to come up with
something suitable for the majority of hardware that is out there.  In
most cases, it will probably be a custom configuration for each
person, so as long as the right knobs are there, you can configure
something that works for your particular system.

Alex

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

On 2011-08-02 17:48, Alex Deucher wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
> <klaus.kusche@computerix.info>  wrote:
>> On 2011-08-02 16:34, Alex Deucher wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
>>> <klaus.kusche@computerix.info>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 2011-08-02 14:59, Alex Deucher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
>>>>> <klaus.kusche@computerix.info>      wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmmm, what's about the opposite approach?
>>>>>> To me, it sounds simpler and more logical when the kernel always
>>>>>> creates
>>>>>> one device node per output (or maybe dynamically per connected output),
>>>>>> without any need for configuration or device assignment.
>>>>>
>>>>> You almost always have more connectors than display controllers (e.g.,
>>>>> you might have displayport, svideo, DVI-I and VGA, but only two
>>>>> display controllers so you can only use two of the connectors at any
>>>>> time).  Also certain combinations of connectors are not possible
>>>>> depending on the hw (e.g., the svideo and the VGA port may share the
>>>>> same DAC, so you can only use one or the other at the same time).
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm, for my purposes I was only thinking about new, current hardware,
>>>> not about previous-generation cards, and only about digital outputs:
>>>>
>>>> * The professional, high-quality solution would be ATI's FirePro 2460:
>>>> 4 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot
>>>> (passive cooling,<    20 W, so that's a great energy saver, too,
>>>> competing with thin and zero clients,
>>>> and it's silent and long-lived)
>>>>
>>>> * The XFX HD-677X-Z5F3 most likely offers most ports per Euro and space:
>>>> 5 mini Displayports, all active at the same time, single slot,
>>>> for less than 100 Euro
>>>>
>>>> (this would result in 16/20 seats with any quad-crossfire mainboard
>>>> and 28/35 seats with some server mainboards if the BIOS is able
>>>> to assign addresses to 7 graphics cards)
>>>>
>>>> Even the low-cost 6450 supports 3 and the 6570 supports 4
>>>> independent simultaneous outputs, so any ATI 6xxx card can drive
>>>> all its outputs at the same time
>>>> (and I believe that was also true for ATI 5xxx)
>>>> However, cards with 3 or 4 digital outputs are hard to find
>>>> in that price range... (XFX HD6570 is one of them)
>>>>
>>>> But you're correct, my suggestion above needs to be refined:
>>>> One DRI device per display controller.
>>>
>>> Even then it gets a little tricky.  AMD cards are fairly flexible, but
>>> some other cards may have restrictions about which encoders can be
>>> driven by which display controllers.  Then how do you decide which
>>> display controller gets assigned to which connector(s)?  You also need
>>> to factor in things like memory bandwidth.  E.g., a low end card may
>>> not be able to drive four huge displays properly, but can drive four
>>> smaller displays.
>>
>> What is your suggestion to "do things right"?
>> How would you assign DRI device nodes to multiple monitors?
>> Do you have better suggestions for building multi-seat systems
>> beyond 4 seats with 4 single-output cards?
>>
>> How does xrandr currently solve those problems?
>> It might also "see" more outputs than there are display controllers,
>> it has the same job of assigning connectors to display controllers,
>> and it also has the problem that setting all outputs to their
>> maximum resolution might cause the card to run out of memory bandwidth.
>> So either the logic needed is already there,
>> or the problems are not multiseat-specific,
>> but affect today's multi-screen environments in general.
>>
>> I think there is no need to do better than xrandr currently does.
>> In fact, that's the multiseat solution we have today:
>> Configure one X server (most likely using xrandr) with one huge display
>> spanning all the outputs and monitors connected to one card,
>> and start one Xephyr per monitor and user within that display.
>> This just lacks any acceleration and Xv.
>>
>> (the fact that xrandr already seems to handle most of this
>> was one of the reasons why I suggested that the kernel should just
>> export every output the hardware offers to userland: I believed
>> that the userland already knows how to allocate and configure outputs,
>> and the only thing missing is the ability to access the same card
>> from more than one X server or to assign the outputs of one card
>> to two or more X servers)
>
> Some drivers can already do this (the radeon driver at least).  google
> for zaphod mode.  You basically start one instance of the driver for
> each display controller and then assign which randr outputs are used
> by each instance of the driver.  It already works and supports
> acceleration.  The problem is, each instance shows up as an X protocol
> screen rather than a separate X server so, you'd have to fix the input
> side.

Hmmmm...
* Zaphod seems to have even fewer active users and less future/support
than Xephyr, so putting work into it doesn't seem to be a future-proof
investment.
* It would be of interest only if it were possible to configure two
zaphod drivers assigned to two different outputs (but the same PCI Id!)
in two *different* X servers, but I'm quite sure that's not supported...

>> I also believe and accept that there will be no solution
>> supporting all graphics cards existing today and 10 years back.
>> Only some cards offer KMS, only some cards offer 3D acceleration,
>> some older cards don't even offer dual-screen support for one X server,
>> only some cards will offer multi-seat support in future.
>> If somebody wants to build a high-density shared-card multiseat system,
>> he has to choose suitable hardware.
>
> Even if you only support KMS supported hardware which seems reasonable
> to me, you still have a lot of cards out there with interesting
> display configurations.  We still make cards with DVI and VGA ports on
> them or more connectors than display controllers.  You don't really
> want to go through the whole effort if it only works on a handful of
> special cards.  It wouldn't take that much more work to come up with
> something suitable for the majority of hardware that is out there.  In
> most cases, it will probably be a custom configuration for each
> person, so as long as the right knobs are there, you can configure
> something that works for your particular system.

Any idea what "something suitable" could be?
What the missing "right knobs" are?

Back to the beginning of the discussion:
The primary interest is not how to configure outputs.
xrandr already does that, and that should be used, not duplicated.
We only want what xrandr is able to do today (at most), not more.
However, we want it for more than one X server.

The central question is:
How do two or more X servers share access to a single graphics engine?
The second question is:
How do xrandr outputs get assigned to X servers such that each server
gets exclusive access to its outputs?
And the third item on the todo list is perhaps tightening security
and server/user separation...

Airlied's prototype implementation was a working demonstration
for the first item (just for radeon).
His suggestion for the second question was purely kernel-based
(using configfs). If I understood it correctly:
* For each card, first configure the number of DRM devices
you want to have (one per X server).
* Then, assign xrandr outputs to these devices.

This way, each X server opening its render device should only "see"
the outputs assigned to this device.

Is this agreed?
Any alternatives?

Basically, I think multiseat configurations will be static in most
cases - after all, a multiseat configuration usually has
quite a cabling mess, with a fixed number of monitors,
each having a keyboard and mouse, which are statically mapped
to fixed evdev devices using udev. Re-cabling is an effort anyway,
so editing a config file in this case would be acceptable (after all,
most existing multi-Xephyr solutions are also statically configured).
Hence several xorg.conf selected with -config or one large xorg.conf
with several layouts selected by -layout will suffice,
each specifying input devices, a graphics card and an xrandr output
similar to zaphod mode.

So what would be needed to make that work?

If someone wants dynamic configuration without xorg.conf,
I think the only thing needed is some bookkeeping in the kernel
which server is using which xrandr output:
* If a server is started without specific configuration,
it just grabs the next available output
(or all unused outputs on that card?).
* If a server activates an unused output, this output should
be assigned to him exclusively until disabled.
* If a server tries to activate an output already in use by
another server, it should get an error.
* If a server disables an output, this output becomes available
to other servers.

What would be needed for that? Is the information about enabled
and disabled outputs currently stored in the kernel or in userland?


Klaus.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Alex Deucher]

On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
<klaus.kusche@computerix.info> wrote:
>>
>> Some drivers can already do this (the radeon driver at least).  google
>> for zaphod mode.  You basically start one instance of the driver for
>> each display controller and then assign which randr outputs are used
>> by each instance of the driver.  It already works and supports
>> acceleration.  The problem is, each instance shows up as an X protocol
>> screen rather than a separate X server so, you'd have to fix the input
>> side.
>
> Hmmmm...
> * Zaphod seems to have even fewer active users and less future/support
> than Xephyr, so putting work into it doesn't seem to be a future-proof
> investment.
> * It would be of interest only if it were possible to configure two
> zaphod drivers assigned to two different outputs (but the same PCI Id!)
> in two *different* X servers, but I'm quite sure that's not supported...
>
>>> I also believe and accept that there will be no solution
>>> supporting all graphics cards existing today and 10 years back.
>>> Only some cards offer KMS, only some cards offer 3D acceleration,
>>> some older cards don't even offer dual-screen support for one X server,
>>> only some cards will offer multi-seat support in future.
>>> If somebody wants to build a high-density shared-card multiseat system,
>>> he has to choose suitable hardware.
>>
>> Even if you only support KMS supported hardware which seems reasonable
>> to me, you still have a lot of cards out there with interesting
>> display configurations.  We still make cards with DVI and VGA ports on
>> them or more connectors than display controllers.  You don't really
>> want to go through the whole effort if it only works on a handful of
>> special cards.  It wouldn't take that much more work to come up with
>> something suitable for the majority of hardware that is out there.  In
>> most cases, it will probably be a custom configuration for each
>> person, so as long as the right knobs are there, you can configure
>> something that works for your particular system.
>
> Any idea what "something suitable" could be?
> What the missing "right knobs" are?

Some way to assign a certain set of KMS objects (crtcs and
encoders/connectors) to a particular client.

>
> Back to the beginning of the discussion:
> The primary interest is not how to configure outputs.
> xrandr already does that, and that should be used, not duplicated.
> We only want what xrandr is able to do today (at most), not more.
> However, we want it for more than one X server.

You don't really want xrandr.  You want some way to isolate a group of
KMS objects.  You can write a client that uses the KMS ioctls to
configure the the display hardware.  That's what the ddx does right
now with kms drivers.  I think you'd want to add some knobs (in sysfs
or configfs maybe) that lets you limit which KMS objects are exposed
to a particular client.

>
> The central question is:
> How do two or more X servers share access to a single graphics engine?

This is already possible.  For rendering the client only needs to
allocate buffers via the drm memory management ioctls and then submit
command buffers that act on those buffers.  For things like direct
rendering, the dri2 protocol provides the way for the ddx and 3d
driver to share buffers via the drm.

> The second question is:
> How do xrandr outputs get assigned to X servers such that each server
> gets exclusive access to its outputs?

Right now it queries the ddx queries the drm using the kms modesetting
ioctls and gets a list of all the KMS display objects.  The DDX then
parses that list and provides a translation layer for xrandr.

> And the third item on the todo list is perhaps tightening security
> and server/user separation...

The drm already provides this for the most part.  Things could get
tricky if we ever add support for sharing buffers between drms.

>
> Airlied's prototype implementation was a working demonstration
> for the first item (just for radeon).
> His suggestion for the second question was purely kernel-based
> (using configfs). If I understood it correctly:
> * For each card, first configure the number of DRM devices
> you want to have (one per X server).
> * Then, assign xrandr outputs to these devices.
>
> This way, each X server opening its render device should only "see"
> the outputs assigned to this device.
>
> Is this agreed?

Seems like the best approach to me.

> Any alternatives?
>
> Basically, I think multiseat configurations will be static in most
> cases - after all, a multiseat configuration usually has
> quite a cabling mess, with a fixed number of monitors,
> each having a keyboard and mouse, which are statically mapped
> to fixed evdev devices using udev. Re-cabling is an effort anyway,
> so editing a config file in this case would be acceptable (after all,
> most existing multi-Xephyr solutions are also statically configured).
> Hence several xorg.conf selected with -config or one large xorg.conf
> with several layouts selected by -layout will suffice,
> each specifying input devices, a graphics card and an xrandr output
> similar to zaphod mode.
>
> So what would be needed to make that work?

Some way to associate a limited set of KMS display objects with a
particular drm device.

>
> If someone wants dynamic configuration without xorg.conf,
> I think the only thing needed is some bookkeeping in the kernel
> which server is using which xrandr output:
> * If a server is started without specific configuration,
> it just grabs the next available output
> (or all unused outputs on that card?).
> * If a server activates an unused output, this output should
> be assigned to him exclusively until disabled.
> * If a server tries to activate an output already in use by
> another server, it should get an error.
> * If a server disables an output, this output becomes available
> to other servers.
>
> What would be needed for that? Is the information about enabled
> and disabled outputs currently stored in the kernel or in userland?

All of that information is stored in the kernel.  You don't need X at
all.  The ddx basically just provides a translation layer between KMS
and xrandr, provides acceleration for render and core X and sets up
shared buffers for 3D rendering.

Alex

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

On 2011-08-03 19:51, Alex Deucher wrote:
>> Any idea what "something suitable" could be?
>> What the missing "right knobs" are?
>
> Some way to assign a certain set of KMS objects (crtcs and
> encoders/connectors) to a particular client.
>
>> Back to the beginning of the discussion:
>> The primary interest is not how to configure outputs.
>> xrandr already does that, and that should be used, not duplicated.
>> We only want what xrandr is able to do today (at most), not more.
>> However, we want it for more than one X server.
>
> You don't really want xrandr.  You want some way to isolate a group of
> KMS objects.  You can write a client that uses the KMS ioctls to
> configure the the display hardware.  That's what the ddx does right
> now with kms drivers.  I think you'd want to add some knobs (in sysfs
> or configfs maybe) that lets you limit which KMS objects are exposed
> to a particular client.

>> Airlied's prototype implementation was a working demonstration
>> for the first item (just for radeon).
>> His suggestion for the second question was purely kernel-based
>> (using configfs). If I understood it correctly:
>> * For each card, first configure the number of DRM devices
>> you want to have (one per X server).
>> * Then, assign xrandr outputs to these devices.
>>
>> This way, each X server opening its render device should only "see"
>> the outputs assigned to this device.
>>
>> Is this agreed?
>
> Seems like the best approach to me.
>
>> Any alternatives?
>>
>> Basically, I think multiseat configurations will be static in most
>> cases - after all, a multiseat configuration usually has
>> quite a cabling mess, with a fixed number of monitors,
>> each having a keyboard and mouse, which are statically mapped
>> to fixed evdev devices using udev. Re-cabling is an effort anyway,
>> so editing a config file in this case would be acceptable (after all,
>> most existing multi-Xephyr solutions are also statically configured).
>> Hence several xorg.conf selected with -config or one large xorg.conf
>> with several layouts selected by -layout will suffice,
>> each specifying input devices, a graphics card and an xrandr output
>> similar to zaphod mode.
>>
>> So what would be needed to make that work?
>
> Some way to associate a limited set of KMS display objects with a
> particular drm device.

 From the user's / administrator's point of view,
I'm still not convinced that we need to isolate kms objects into groups
explicitely and that we need another visible configuration interface
at the kernel level (like a configfs interface) for that.

Multiseat already has too many places to configure:
* xorg.conf (for defining x servers and assigning input devices to them)
* xdm / gdm / kdm / consolekit config (to get things running)
* udev rules (for assigning nice input device names to specific USB ids)

Please don't add another configuration step or interface
if it can be avoided.

All the device and output assignment can easily be expressed
in xorg.conf (as it is already done e.g. for zaphod),
and that's also the place where it belongs:
The information which input devices, which PCI id (or card device)
and output, and which X server number belong to each seat
should be kept together in *one* place.
Based on that information, each X server could allocate
the ressources it was configured for - no need to do that separately.

Of course the kernel has to do some bookkeeping which server
has allocated which outputs: It must prevent that some server
allocats a card or output already taken, and it must take care that
each server only accesses the ressources it has allocated.

But from the user's point of view, there is no need
to explicitely isolate outputs or create separate device nodes
for each output *before* starting the X servers:
I think it's no problem that a server "sees" all outputs
of its card (including those not belonging to him),
only using or reconfiguring them must result in an error
if they have already been taken by some other server.

Klaus.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de

Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Chi-Thanh Christopher Nguyen]

Alex Deucher <alexdeucher <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Some drivers can already do this (the radeon driver at least).  google
> for zaphod mode.  You basically start one instance of the driver for
> each display controller and then assign which randr outputs are used
> by each instance of the driver.  It already works and supports
> acceleration.  The problem is, each instance shows up as an X protocol
> screen rather than a separate X server so, you'd have to fix the input
> side.

I think with MPX and pointer barriers some parts are already in place to do
multiseat with zaphod. Though I don't know how well MPX and pointer barriers
work together. Applications grabbing input might cause issues too.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

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Re: [Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Tomasz Borowik]

I wonder if a custom window manager wouldn't be enough? Using
multi-pointer and locking each focus group to a given screen, making
sure that no one can interfere with anyone else. If the wm is root it
should be capable of spawning programs of different user privileges on
each screen. Of course that is far less insulated and in effect
probably less secure, but it should be easy to do and might be much
more stable, also it should work on whatever hardware you give it.

Tomasz Borowik

[Feature request] Multiple X servers on one graphics card?

[Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche]

Tomasz Borowik <timon37 at gmail.com> wrote:
 > I wonder if a custom window manager wouldn't be enough? Using
 > multi-pointer and locking each focus group to a given screen, making
 > sure that no one can interfere with anyone else. If the wm is root it
 > should be capable of spawning programs of different user privileges on
 > each screen. Of course that is far less insulated and in effect
 > probably less secure, but it should be easy to do and might be much
 > more stable, also it should work on whatever hardware you give it.

Chi-Thanh Christopher Nguyen <chithanh at gentoo.org> wrote:
 > I think with MPX and pointer barriers some parts are already in place
 > to do
 > multiseat with zaphod. Though I don't know how well MPX and pointer
 > barriers
 > work together. Applications grabbing input might cause issues too.

It's more than that:
* You need multiple keyboards, each assigned to one screen.
* You want multiple X servers running under different uid's
to separate users and access rights cleanly.
Even if (with Tomasz's approach) the applications are running with
different uid's, you still need to give all users full access to
the X server, and the X server was not designed for serving multiple
users in a safe way.

And yes, input grabbing is a problem, perhaps the most serious one
(at least, you really want to have input grabbing when entering
login passwords...).

The current solution (one X server per card and one Xephyr
per screen / user) solves all the input problems and offers
almost perfect user separation, and is 100 % compatible
with standard X applications, wm's and desktops.
It also runs on anything supported by X.
However, it offers no hardware acceleration, which is a problem
for modern desktops, video applications etc. (in fact, I tried,
that's no serious problem for a single Xephyr on a fast machine
where the CPU suffices to render in software and copy each frame,
but it most likely becomes a problem on a multiuser machine where
CPU and memory bandwidth is shared between many users).

So the question is: How can we preserve what Xephyr offers now
and add what it lacks?

Klaus.

P.S.: I'm not on the list. Please include me in To: or Cc:.

-- 
Prof. Dr. Klaus Kusche
Private address: Rainstraße 9/1, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 6211377 Klaus.Kusche@computerix.info http://www.computerix.info
Office address: NTA Isny gGmbH, Seidenstraße 12-35, 88316 Isny, Germany
+49 7562 9707 36 kusche@nta-isny.de http://www.nta-isny.de