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* [r600g] ATI Radeon HD6950, dual monitor and power profile
@ 2011-12-20 18:38 Harald Judt
  2011-12-20 20:20 ` Adam Jackson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Harald Judt @ 2011-12-20 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: dri-devel

Hi,

When using more than one monitor, the card uses higher clocks than in 
single-monitor mode and low-power profile. As a subjectively negative 
side-effect, the fan on the card starts making more noise. Other cards I 
used before had no problem with staying quiet even when more monitors 
were attached.

As soon as I switch back to single-monitor mode, clocks go down and the 
card becomes silent again.

Is there a way to manually force lower clock speeds, and therefore reach 
an acceptable noise level? Maybe make it use the same power profile 
settings in dual-monitor as in single-monitor?

Dual-monitor mode:

~ $ cat /sys/class/drm/card0/device/power_profile
low

~ $ cat /sys/kernel/debug/dri/0/radeon_pm_info
default engine clock: 800000 kHz
current engine clock: 799940 kHz
default memory clock: 1250000 kHz
current memory clock: 1250000 kHz
voltage: 1060 mV

Single-monitor mode:

~ $ cat /sys/class/drm/card0/device/power_profile
low

~ $ cat /sys/kernel/debug/dri/0/radeon_pm_info
default engine clock: 800000 kHz
current engine clock: 249990 kHz
default memory clock: 1250000 kHz
current memory clock: 150000 kHz
voltage: 900 mV

Regards,
Harald

-- 
`Experience is the best teacher.'

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

* Re: [r600g] ATI Radeon HD6950, dual monitor and power profile
  2011-12-20 18:38 [r600g] ATI Radeon HD6950, dual monitor and power profile Harald Judt
@ 2011-12-20 20:20 ` Adam Jackson
  2011-12-20 21:19   ` Harald Judt
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Adam Jackson @ 2011-12-20 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Harald Judt; +Cc: dri-devel

On 12/20/11 1:38 PM, Harald Judt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> When using more than one monitor, the card uses higher clocks than in
> single-monitor mode and low-power profile. As a subjectively negative
> side-effect, the fan on the card starts making more noise. Other cards I
> used before had no problem with staying quiet even when more monitors
> were attached.
>
> As soon as I switch back to single-monitor mode, clocks go down and the
> card becomes silent again.
>
> Is there a way to manually force lower clock speeds, and therefore reach
> an acceptable noise level? Maybe make it use the same power profile
> settings in dual-monitor as in single-monitor?

It really depends on what kind of power profiles the device exposes. 
Boot with drm.debug=0x2 and they'll be in dmesg.

- ajax

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

* Re: [r600g] ATI Radeon HD6950, dual monitor and power profile
  2011-12-20 20:20 ` Adam Jackson
@ 2011-12-20 21:19   ` Harald Judt
  2011-12-20 21:50     ` Alex Deucher
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Harald Judt @ 2011-12-20 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: dri-devel

Am 20.12.2011 21:20, schrieb Adam Jackson:
> On 12/20/11 1:38 PM, Harald Judt wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> When using more than one monitor, the card uses higher clocks than in
>> single-monitor mode and low-power profile. As a subjectively negative
>> side-effect, the fan on the card starts making more noise. Other cards I
>> used before had no problem with staying quiet even when more monitors
>> were attached.
>>
>> As soon as I switch back to single-monitor mode, clocks go down and the
>> card becomes silent again.
>>
>> Is there a way to manually force lower clock speeds, and therefore reach
>> an acceptable noise level? Maybe make it use the same power profile
>> settings in dual-monitor as in single-monitor?
>
> It really depends on what kind of power profiles the device exposes.
> Boot with drm.debug=0x2 and they'll be in dmesg.
>
> - ajax

Here we go:

[drm] Initialized drm 1.1.0 20060810
[drm] radeon defaulting to kernel modesetting.
[drm] radeon kernel modesetting enabled.
radeon 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
radeon 0000:01:00.0: setting latency timer to 64
[drm] initializing kernel modesetting (CAYMAN 0x1002:0x6719 0x1002:0x0B00).
[drm] register mmio base: 0xFE620000
[drm] register mmio size: 131072
ATOM BIOS: CAYMAN
radeon 0000:01:00.0: VRAM: 2048M 0x0000000000000000 - 0x000000007FFFFFFF 
(2048M used)
radeon 0000:01:00.0: GTT: 512M 0x0000000080000000 - 0x000000009FFFFFFF
mtrr: type mismatch for c0000000,10000000 old: write-back new: 
write-combining
[drm] Detected VRAM RAM=2048M, BAR=256M
[drm] RAM width 256bits DDR
[TTM] Zone  kernel: Available graphics memory: 8209192 kiB.
[TTM] Zone   dma32: Available graphics memory: 2097152 kiB.
[TTM] Initializing pool allocator.
[drm] radeon: 2048M of VRAM memory ready
[drm] radeon: 512M of GTT memory ready.
[drm] Supports vblank timestamp caching Rev 1 (10.10.2010).
[drm] Driver supports precise vblank timestamp query.
radeon 0000:01:00.0: irq 54 for MSI/MSI-X
radeon 0000:01:00.0: radeon: using MSI.
[drm] radeon: irq initialized.
[drm] GART: num cpu pages 131072, num gpu pages 131072
[drm] Loading CAYMAN Microcode
[drm] PCIE GART of 512M enabled (table at 0x0000000000040000).
radeon 0000:01:00.0: WB enabled
[drm] ring test succeeded in 3 usecs
[drm] radeon: ib pool ready.
[drm] ib test succeeded in 0 usecs
[drm] Radeon Display Connectors
[drm] Connector 0:
[drm]   DisplayPort
[drm]   HPD5
[drm]   DDC: 0x6430 0x6430 0x6434 0x6434 0x6438 0x6438 0x643c 0x643c
[drm]   Encoders:
[drm]     DFP1: INTERNAL_UNIPHY2
[drm] Connector 1:
[drm]   DisplayPort
[drm]   HPD4
[drm]   DDC: 0x6440 0x6440 0x6444 0x6444 0x6448 0x6448 0x644c 0x644c
[drm]   Encoders:
[drm]     DFP2: INTERNAL_UNIPHY2
[drm] Connector 2:
[drm]   HDMI-A
[drm]   HPD6
[drm]   DDC: 0x6460 0x6460 0x6464 0x6464 0x6468 0x6468 0x646c 0x646c
[drm]   Encoders:
[drm]     DFP3: INTERNAL_UNIPHY1
[drm] Connector 3:
[drm]   DVI-D
[drm]   HPD1
[drm]   DDC: 0x6450 0x6450 0x6454 0x6454 0x6458 0x6458 0x645c 0x645c
[drm]   Encoders:
[drm]     DFP4: INTERNAL_UNIPHY1
[drm] Connector 4:
[drm]   DVI-I
[drm]   HPD3
[drm]   DDC: 0x6470 0x6470 0x6474 0x6474 0x6478 0x6478 0x647c 0x647c
[drm]   Encoders:
[drm]     DFP5: INTERNAL_UNIPHY
[drm]     CRT1: INTERNAL_KLDSCP_DAC1
[drm] Internal thermal controller with fan control
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 4 Power State(s)
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 0: Default
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 	Default
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 	16 PCIE Lanes
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 	3 Clock Mode(s)
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		0 e: 800000	m: 1250000	v: 1060	No 
display only
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		1 e: 800000	m: 1250000	v: 1060
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		2 e: 800000	m: 1250000	v: 1060
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 1: Performance
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 	16 PCIE Lanes
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 	3 Clock Mode(s)
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		0 e: 250000	m: 150000	v: 900	No display only
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		1 e: 500000	m: 1250000	v: 1000
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		2 e: 800000	m: 1250000	v: 1060
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 2: Default
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 	16 PCIE Lanes
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 	3 Clock Mode(s)
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		0 e: 500000	m: 1250000	v: 1000	No 
display only
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		1 e: 500000	m: 1250000	v: 1000
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		2 e: 725000	m: 1250000	v: 1060
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 3: Default
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 	16 PCIE Lanes
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 	3 Clock Mode(s)
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		0 e: 500000	m: 1250000	v: 1000	No 
display only
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		1 e: 500000	m: 1250000	v: 1000
[drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 		2 e: 725000	m: 1250000	v: 1060
[drm] radeon: power management initialized
[drm] fb mappable at 0xC0142000
[drm] vram apper at 0xC0000000
[drm] size 8294400
[drm] fb depth is 24
[drm]    pitch is 7680
fbcon: radeondrmfb (fb0) is primary device
[drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: e: 80000
[drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: m: 125000
Console: switching to colour frame buffer device 240x67
fb0: radeondrmfb frame buffer device
drm: registered panic notifier
[drm] Initialized radeon 2.12.0 20080528 for 0000:01:00.0 on minor 0

There are three Default and one Performance State. How can they be 
related to the /sys profile entry? Further, how are the ones for 
multi-display configuration chosen?

BTW: I guess there is a typo somewhere in the drm debug code? Evidently, 
the last 0 is missing here:
   [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: e: 80000
   [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: m: 125000

Regards,
Harald

-- 
`Experience is the best teacher.'

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

* Re: [r600g] ATI Radeon HD6950, dual monitor and power profile
  2011-12-20 21:19   ` Harald Judt
@ 2011-12-20 21:50     ` Alex Deucher
  2011-12-21  0:21       ` Harald Judt
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Alex Deucher @ 2011-12-20 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Harald Judt; +Cc: dri-devel

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Harald Judt <h.judt@gmx.at> wrote:
> Am 20.12.2011 21:20, schrieb Adam Jackson:
>>
>> On 12/20/11 1:38 PM, Harald Judt wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> When using more than one monitor, the card uses higher clocks than in
>>> single-monitor mode and low-power profile. As a subjectively negative
>>> side-effect, the fan on the card starts making more noise. Other cards I
>>> used before had no problem with staying quiet even when more monitors
>>> were attached.
>>>
>>> As soon as I switch back to single-monitor mode, clocks go down and the
>>> card becomes silent again.
>>>
>>> Is there a way to manually force lower clock speeds, and therefore reach
>>> an acceptable noise level? Maybe make it use the same power profile
>>> settings in dual-monitor as in single-monitor?
>>
>>
>> It really depends on what kind of power profiles the device exposes.
>> Boot with drm.debug=0x2 and they'll be in dmesg.
>>
>> - ajax
>
>
> Here we go:
>
> [drm] Initialized drm 1.1.0 20060810
> [drm] radeon defaulting to kernel modesetting.
> [drm] radeon kernel modesetting enabled.
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: setting latency timer to 64
> [drm] initializing kernel modesetting (CAYMAN 0x1002:0x6719 0x1002:0x0B00).
> [drm] register mmio base: 0xFE620000
> [drm] register mmio size: 131072
> ATOM BIOS: CAYMAN
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: VRAM: 2048M 0x0000000000000000 - 0x000000007FFFFFFF
> (2048M used)
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: GTT: 512M 0x0000000080000000 - 0x000000009FFFFFFF
> mtrr: type mismatch for c0000000,10000000 old: write-back new:
> write-combining
> [drm] Detected VRAM RAM=2048M, BAR=256M
> [drm] RAM width 256bits DDR
> [TTM] Zone  kernel: Available graphics memory: 8209192 kiB.
> [TTM] Zone   dma32: Available graphics memory: 2097152 kiB.
> [TTM] Initializing pool allocator.
> [drm] radeon: 2048M of VRAM memory ready
> [drm] radeon: 512M of GTT memory ready.
> [drm] Supports vblank timestamp caching Rev 1 (10.10.2010).
> [drm] Driver supports precise vblank timestamp query.
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: irq 54 for MSI/MSI-X
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: radeon: using MSI.
> [drm] radeon: irq initialized.
> [drm] GART: num cpu pages 131072, num gpu pages 131072
> [drm] Loading CAYMAN Microcode
> [drm] PCIE GART of 512M enabled (table at 0x0000000000040000).
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: WB enabled
> [drm] ring test succeeded in 3 usecs
> [drm] radeon: ib pool ready.
> [drm] ib test succeeded in 0 usecs
> [drm] Radeon Display Connectors
> [drm] Connector 0:
> [drm]   DisplayPort
> [drm]   HPD5
> [drm]   DDC: 0x6430 0x6430 0x6434 0x6434 0x6438 0x6438 0x643c 0x643c
> [drm]   Encoders:
> [drm]     DFP1: INTERNAL_UNIPHY2
> [drm] Connector 1:
> [drm]   DisplayPort
> [drm]   HPD4
> [drm]   DDC: 0x6440 0x6440 0x6444 0x6444 0x6448 0x6448 0x644c 0x644c
> [drm]   Encoders:
> [drm]     DFP2: INTERNAL_UNIPHY2
> [drm] Connector 2:
> [drm]   HDMI-A
> [drm]   HPD6
> [drm]   DDC: 0x6460 0x6460 0x6464 0x6464 0x6468 0x6468 0x646c 0x646c
> [drm]   Encoders:
> [drm]     DFP3: INTERNAL_UNIPHY1
> [drm] Connector 3:
> [drm]   DVI-D
> [drm]   HPD1
> [drm]   DDC: 0x6450 0x6450 0x6454 0x6454 0x6458 0x6458 0x645c 0x645c
> [drm]   Encoders:
> [drm]     DFP4: INTERNAL_UNIPHY1
> [drm] Connector 4:
> [drm]   DVI-I
> [drm]   HPD3
> [drm]   DDC: 0x6470 0x6470 0x6474 0x6474 0x6478 0x6478 0x647c 0x647c
> [drm]   Encoders:
> [drm]     DFP5: INTERNAL_UNIPHY
> [drm]     CRT1: INTERNAL_KLDSCP_DAC1
> [drm] Internal thermal controller with fan control
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 4 Power State(s)
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 0: Default
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   Default
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   16 PCIE Lanes
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   3 Clock Mode(s)
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           0 e: 800000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1060 No display only
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           1 e: 800000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1060
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           2 e: 800000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1060

This first state is the default/boot state.

> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 1: Performance
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   16 PCIE Lanes
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   3 Clock Mode(s)
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           0 e: 250000     m: 150000       v:
> 900  No display only
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           1 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1000
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           2 e: 800000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1060

This is the single head performance state.

> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 2: Default
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   16 PCIE Lanes
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   3 Clock Mode(s)
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           0 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1000 No display only
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           1 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1000
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           2 e: 725000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1060
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 3: Default
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   16 PCIE Lanes
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   3 Clock Mode(s)
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           0 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1000 No display only
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           1 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1000
> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           2 e: 725000     m: 1250000      v:
> 1060

These last two are most likely special video playback states.

> [drm] radeon: power management initialized
> [drm] fb mappable at 0xC0142000
> [drm] vram apper at 0xC0000000
> [drm] size 8294400
> [drm] fb depth is 24
> [drm]    pitch is 7680
> fbcon: radeondrmfb (fb0) is primary device
> [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: e: 80000
> [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: m: 125000
> Console: switching to colour frame buffer device 240x67
> fb0: radeondrmfb frame buffer device
> drm: registered panic notifier
> [drm] Initialized radeon 2.12.0 20080528 for 0000:01:00.0 on minor 0
>
> There are three Default and one Performance State. How can they be related
> to the /sys profile entry? Further, how are the ones for multi-display
> configuration chosen?

There's only 1 default state.  The code to print out the tables says
"default" by default if there is no other attribute set.  Most cards
have two performance states: one for multi-head and one for single
head.  Since there is no multi-head power state, the driver uses the
default profile for multi-head.  On systems like this it might be
better to use the last profile for multi-head.

>
> BTW: I guess there is a typo somewhere in the drm debug code? Evidently, the
> last 0 is missing here:
>  [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: e: 80000
>  [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: m: 125000

The driver stores clocks in 10 khz units.

>
> Regards,
> Harald
>
> --
> `Experience is the best teacher.'
> _______________________________________________
> dri-devel mailing list
> dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/dri-devel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

* Re: [r600g] ATI Radeon HD6950, dual monitor and power profile
  2011-12-20 21:50     ` Alex Deucher
@ 2011-12-21  0:21       ` Harald Judt
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Harald Judt @ 2011-12-21  0:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Alex Deucher; +Cc: dri-devel

Am 20.12.2011 22:50, schrieb Alex Deucher:

[...]

>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], 4 Power State(s)
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 0: Default
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   Default
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   16 PCIE Lanes
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   3 Clock Mode(s)
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           0 e: 800000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1060 No display only
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           1 e: 800000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1060
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           2 e: 800000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1060
>
> This first state is the default/boot state.
>
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 1: Performance
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   16 PCIE Lanes
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   3 Clock Mode(s)
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           0 e: 250000     m: 150000       v:
>> 900  No display only
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           1 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1000
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           2 e: 800000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1060
>
> This is the single head performance state.
>
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 2: Default
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   16 PCIE Lanes
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   3 Clock Mode(s)
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           0 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1000 No display only
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           1 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1000
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           2 e: 725000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1060
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states], State 3: Default
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   16 PCIE Lanes
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],   3 Clock Mode(s)
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           0 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1000 No display only
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           1 e: 500000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1000
>> [drm:radeon_pm_print_states],           2 e: 725000     m: 1250000      v:
>> 1060
>
> These last two are most likely special video playback states.
>
>> [drm] radeon: power management initialized
>> [drm] fb mappable at 0xC0142000
>> [drm] vram apper at 0xC0000000
>> [drm] size 8294400
>> [drm] fb depth is 24
>> [drm]    pitch is 7680
>> fbcon: radeondrmfb (fb0) is primary device
>> [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: e: 80000
>> [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: m: 125000
>> Console: switching to colour frame buffer device 240x67
>> fb0: radeondrmfb frame buffer device
>> drm: registered panic notifier
>> [drm] Initialized radeon 2.12.0 20080528 for 0000:01:00.0 on minor 0
>>
>> There are three Default and one Performance State. How can they be related
>> to the /sys profile entry? Further, how are the ones for multi-display
>> configuration chosen?
>
> There's only 1 default state.  The code to print out the tables says
> "default" by default if there is no other attribute set.  Most cards
> have two performance states: one for multi-head and one for single
> head.  Since there is no multi-head power state, the driver uses the
> default profile for multi-head.

IIRC, the ATI fglrx driver seems to use the same strategy as r600. 
Needless to say that I'm not very fond of this strategy. I didn't check 
what state the windows driver chooses, but I would be surprised if it 
does something different.

> On systems like this it might be better to use the last profile for
> multi-head.

Ok, for now I changed radeon_pm.c to always use the single-head profile 
for low and mid. However, selecting the last profile as you suggested 
would not help in my case, as it is the same as single-profile mid and 
causes the fan to spin up to definitely audible levels.

I did not notice any performance difference between low and mid for 
usual desktop work with desktop fx enabled. The card seems to be able to 
handle two monitors in single-head low power profile just fine. This 
might change when you connect more than two monitors.

>> BTW: I guess there is a typo somewhere in the drm debug code? Evidently, the
>> last 0 is missing here:
>>   [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: e: 80000
>>   [drm:radeon_set_power_state], Setting: m: 125000
>
> The driver stores clocks in 10 khz units.

Thanks for clarification.

Harald

-- 
`Experience is the best teacher.'

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2011-12-21  0:21 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 5+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2011-12-20 18:38 [r600g] ATI Radeon HD6950, dual monitor and power profile Harald Judt
2011-12-20 20:20 ` Adam Jackson
2011-12-20 21:19   ` Harald Judt
2011-12-20 21:50     ` Alex Deucher
2011-12-21  0:21       ` Harald Judt

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