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From: Austin S Hemmelgarn <ahferroin7-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: Christoph Hellwig <hch-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>,
	P??draig Brady <P@draigBrady.com>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto-kltTT9wpgjJwATOyAt5JVQ@public.gmane.org>,
	Anna Schumaker
	<Anna.Schumaker-HgOvQuBEEgTQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>,
	"Darrick J. Wong"
	<darrick.wong-QHcLZuEGTsvQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>,
	linux-nfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org,
	Linux btrfs Developers List
	<linux-btrfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>,
	Linux FS Devel
	<linux-fsdevel-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>,
	Zach Brown <zab-ugsP4Wv/S6ZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>,
	Al Viro <viro-RmSDqhL/yNMiFSDQTTA3OLVCufUGDwFn@public.gmane.org>,
	Chris Mason <clm-b10kYP2dOMg@public.gmane.org>,
	Michael Kerrisk-manpages
	<mtk.manpages-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>,
	andros-HgOvQuBEEgTQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 8/9] vfs: Add vfs_copy_file_range() support for pagecache copies
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:46:39 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <5620F1AF.2000604@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20151016122453.GB5889-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>

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On 2015-10-16 08:24, Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 01:02:23PM +0100, P??draig Brady wrote:
>> Right. reflinking is transparent to the user, though its consequences are not.
>> Consequences being the possible extra latency or ENOSPC on CoW.
>
> You can get all these consequences without doing the file system reflink
> by using a COW file system, any dedup scheme or thinly provisioned or
> COW storage devices.
>
>> Therefore reflinking should be an explicit action/flag IMHO.
>
> This still does not make any sense, as it only prevents one of many
> ways a file could do COW operations underneath.  If you don't want
> ENOSPC use fallocate, or the proposed COPY_FALLOC flag.  If you want
> care about latency you need to carefull benchmark your setup but in
> general falloc / COPY_FALLOC might be a good starting point.  But for
> 99% of the copies a reflink is exactly the right thing to do.
There is at least one reason other than avoiding ENOSPC and minimizing 
latency that people may want to avoid reflinking things: They actually 
_want_ multiple physically independent copies of the same file on the 
disk.  Usually people do go about this wrong (some people I know don't 
understand that having multiple copies of a file on the same filesystem 
provides no greater safety than one copy), but that doesn't mean that 
this isn't a perfectly valid use case for copying a file.



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WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Austin S Hemmelgarn <ahferroin7@gmail.com>
To: Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org>, P??draig Brady <P@draigBrady.com>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>,
	Anna Schumaker <Anna.Schumaker@netapp.com>,
	"Darrick J. Wong" <darrick.wong@oracle.com>,
	linux-nfs@vger.kernel.org,
	Linux btrfs Developers List <linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux FS Devel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>, Zach Brown <zab@zabbo.net>,
	Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>, Chris Mason <clm@fb.com>,
	Michael Kerrisk-manpages <mtk.manpages@gmail.com>,
	andros@netapp.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 8/9] vfs: Add vfs_copy_file_range() support for pagecache copies
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:46:39 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <5620F1AF.2000604@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20151016122453.GB5889@infradead.org>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1434 bytes --]

On 2015-10-16 08:24, Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 01:02:23PM +0100, P??draig Brady wrote:
>> Right. reflinking is transparent to the user, though its consequences are not.
>> Consequences being the possible extra latency or ENOSPC on CoW.
>
> You can get all these consequences without doing the file system reflink
> by using a COW file system, any dedup scheme or thinly provisioned or
> COW storage devices.
>
>> Therefore reflinking should be an explicit action/flag IMHO.
>
> This still does not make any sense, as it only prevents one of many
> ways a file could do COW operations underneath.  If you don't want
> ENOSPC use fallocate, or the proposed COPY_FALLOC flag.  If you want
> care about latency you need to carefull benchmark your setup but in
> general falloc / COPY_FALLOC might be a good starting point.  But for
> 99% of the copies a reflink is exactly the right thing to do.
There is at least one reason other than avoiding ENOSPC and minimizing 
latency that people may want to avoid reflinking things: They actually 
_want_ multiple physically independent copies of the same file on the 
disk.  Usually people do go about this wrong (some people I know don't 
understand that having multiple copies of a file on the same filesystem 
provides no greater safety than one copy), but that doesn't mean that 
this isn't a perfectly valid use case for copying a file.



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  parent reply	other threads:[~2015-10-16 12:46 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 129+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-09-30 17:26 [PATCH v5 0/9] VFS: In-kernel copy system call Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26 ` Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26 ` Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26 ` [PATCH v5 1/9] vfs: add copy_file_range syscall and vfs helper Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26   ` Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26 ` [PATCH v5 2/9] x86: add sys_copy_file_range to syscall tables Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26   ` Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26 ` [PATCH v5 3/9] btrfs: add .copy_file_range file operation Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26   ` Anna Schumaker
     [not found] ` <1443634014-3026-1-git-send-email-Anna.Schumaker-ZwjVKphTwtPQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2015-09-30 17:26   ` [PATCH v5 4/9] vfs: Copy should check len after file open mode Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26     ` Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26     ` Anna Schumaker
     [not found]     ` <1443634014-3026-5-git-send-email-Anna.Schumaker-ZwjVKphTwtPQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-11 14:22       ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-11 14:22         ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-09-30 17:26   ` [PATCH v5 8/9] vfs: Add vfs_copy_file_range() support for pagecache copies Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26     ` Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26     ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-08  1:40     ` Neil Brown
2015-10-09 11:15       ` Pádraig Brady
2015-10-09 11:15         ` Pádraig Brady
     [not found]         ` <5617A1E9.1080509-V8g9lnOeT5ydJdNcDFJN0w@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-13 20:25           ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-13 20:25             ` Anna Schumaker
     [not found]             ` <561D68B9.8030209-ZwjVKphTwtPQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-14  7:41               ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-14  7:41                 ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]       ` <87vbai6sud.fsf-wvvUuzkyo1HefUI2i7LXDhCRmIWqnp/j@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-13 19:45         ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-13 19:45           ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-13 19:45           ` Anna Schumaker
     [not found]     ` <1443634014-3026-9-git-send-email-Anna.Schumaker-ZwjVKphTwtPQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-11 14:22       ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-11 14:22         ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]         ` <20151011142203.GA31867-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-12 23:17           ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-12 23:17             ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-13  3:36             ` Trond Myklebust
     [not found]               ` <CAHQdGtQoV0g1p2FYC1vFtFwh=jNq5n+AYOxAuSORVfbfhRY1Hg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-13  7:19                 ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-13  7:19                   ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-13  7:30                 ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-13  7:30                   ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]             ` <20151012231749.GC11398-PTl6brltDGh4DFYR7WNSRA@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-13  7:27               ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-13  7:27                 ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-11-10  6:24                 ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-14 17:59               ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-14 17:59                 ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-14 17:59                 ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-14 18:08                 ` Andy Lutomirski
2015-10-14 18:27                   ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]                     ` <20151014182701.GC31225-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-14 18:38                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2015-10-14 18:38                         ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]                         ` <CALCETrWrHs6x+aZ7c=sySRCdzwdfUQZH_DL++vLL78NXXN+7FQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-14 18:49                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-14 18:49                             ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-14 18:53                             ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]                               ` <CALCETrV2ZG=EV5KLEeOERSbDjXCyaULAn0k34msSPFWvf0Tm9w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-14 19:14                                 ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
2015-10-14 19:14                                   ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
2015-10-14 19:39                                   ` Pádraig Brady
2015-10-14 19:39                                     ` Pádraig Brady
2015-10-15  5:56                                 ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-15  5:56                                   ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-14 19:08                       ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
2015-10-14 19:08                         ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
     [not found]                         ` <561EA83E.8080000-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-15  6:36                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-15  6:36                             ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]                             ` <20151015063621.GA3025-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-15 12:24                               ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
2015-10-15 12:24                                 ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
     [not found]                                 ` <561F9B13.7020804-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-16  5:38                                   ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-16  5:38                                     ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-16 11:46                                     ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
2015-10-16 12:02                                       ` Pádraig Brady
2015-10-16 12:02                                         ` Pádraig Brady
     [not found]                                         ` <5620E74F.50006-V8g9lnOeT5ydJdNcDFJN0w@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-16 12:24                                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-16 12:24                                             ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]                                             ` <20151016122453.GB5889-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-16 12:46                                               ` Austin S Hemmelgarn [this message]
2015-10-16 12:46                                                 ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
     [not found]                                       ` <5620E3A1.90408-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-16 12:21                                         ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-16 12:21                                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-16 12:50                                           ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
2015-10-16 13:12                                             ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-16 14:11                                               ` Austin S Hemmelgarn
     [not found]                 ` <561E980C.9010509-ZwjVKphTwtPQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-14 18:11                   ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-14 18:11                     ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-14 18:26                     ` Andy Lutomirski
2015-09-30 17:26   ` [PATCH v5 10/9] copy_file_range.2: New page documenting copy_file_range() Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26     ` Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26     ` Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26 ` [PATCH v5 5/9] vfs: Copy shouldn't forbid ranges inside the same file Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26   ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-11 14:22   ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]     ` <20151011142233.GC31867-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-14 17:37       ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-14 17:37         ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-14 17:37         ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-14 18:25         ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]           ` <20151014182523.GA31225-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-14 18:27             ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-14 18:27               ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-14 18:27               ` Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26 ` [PATCH v5 6/9] vfs: Copy should use file_out rather than file_in Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26   ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-11 14:24   ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-09-30 17:26 ` [PATCH v5 7/9] vfs: Remove copy_file_range mountpoint checks Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26   ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-11 14:23   ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-14 17:41     ` Anna Schumaker
2015-10-14 17:41       ` Anna Schumaker
     [not found]       ` <561E93C3.2090507-ZwjVKphTwtPQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-14 18:25         ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-14 18:25           ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-09-30 17:26 ` [PATCH v5 9/9] btrfs: btrfs_copy_file_range() only supports reflinks Anna Schumaker
2015-09-30 17:26   ` Anna Schumaker
     [not found]   ` <1443634014-3026-10-git-send-email-Anna.Schumaker-ZwjVKphTwtPQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-11 14:29     ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-11 14:29       ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]       ` <20151011142939.GA30905-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-12 10:23         ` Pádraig Brady
2015-10-12 10:23           ` Pádraig Brady
2015-10-12 14:34           ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]             ` <20151012143444.GA10156-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-12 23:41               ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-12 23:41                 ` Darrick J. Wong
     [not found]                 ` <20151012234106.GD11398-PTl6brltDGh4DFYR7WNSRA@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-13  7:29                   ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-13  7:29                     ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]                     ` <20151013072959.GB10794-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-14 18:46                       ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-14 18:46                         ` Darrick J. Wong
2015-10-15  6:00                         ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]                           ` <20151015060045.GA23996-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-16 11:49                             ` Chris Mason
2015-10-16 11:49                               ` Chris Mason
2015-10-16 11:49                               ` Chris Mason
     [not found]                               ` <20151016114919.GB6874-DzB2rL6jT1BHfPKRx072akEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-16 12:25                                 ` Christoph Hellwig
2015-10-16 12:25                                   ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]                                   ` <20151016122544.GC5889-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-16 13:19                                     ` Chris Mason
2015-10-16 13:19                                       ` Chris Mason
2015-10-16 13:19                                       ` Chris Mason
2015-10-16 21:44                                       ` Dave Chinner
2015-10-17 13:44                                         ` Chris Mason
2015-10-17 13:44                                           ` Chris Mason
2015-10-17 13:44                                           ` Chris Mason
     [not found]                         ` <20151014184608.GK850-PTl6brltDGh4DFYR7WNSRA@public.gmane.org>
2015-10-15  8:35                           ` Dave Chinner
2015-10-15  8:35                             ` Dave Chinner

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