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From: "Arsen Arsenović" <arsen@aarsen.me>
To: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
Cc: "Maciej W. Rozycki" <macro@orcam.me.uk>,
	 Collin Funk <collin.funk1@gmail.com>,
	 "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>,
	 Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>,
	linux-man@vger.kernel.org,  bug-gnulib@gnu.org,
	libc-alpha@sourceware.org
Subject: Re: the Linux man-pages as an educational tool
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2026 01:08:32 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87ik5sunm7.fsf@aarsen.me> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <am-2d02e1qq78Asv@devuan>

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Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> writes:

> [[PGP Signed Part:No public key for EB89995CC290C2A9 created at 2026-08-02T23:34:34+0200 using RSA]]
> Hi Maciej,
>
>> Date: 2026-08-02 22:23:36+0100
>> From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" <macro@orcam.me.uk>
>>
>> What problem are you trying to fix anyway, what's wrong with 
>> using <string.h> for the APIs in question?
>
> Programmers misunderstand these functions (some more than others), and
> think they are appropriate for handling strings in ways that they are
> inappropriate.
>
> If <string.h> was described as providing functions that exclusively
> handle strings, then programmers that only need to handle strings
> would naturally self-limit to functions from this header file.
>
> Those programmers that need more niche memory functions --maybe
> because they need to handle a substring, or maybe because they need to
> handle a utmp(5) fixed-width null-padded character array-- can resort
> to <memory.h>, but that comes with the implied warning that those
> functions are not the simple interfaces that <string.h> probides; they
> are sharper: you can do more with them, but you need to be more
> careful.
>
> Most programmers can live in the safe bubble of <string.h>: those
> functions always require a string as input, and always provide a string
> as output.  Plain and simple.  It's difficult to write bugs when using
> those.
>
> That's the rationale.

I do not follow.

C has no namespaces, let alone qualified imports.

The name of a header providing some function is thus inconsequential.

Indeed, these functions are provided by many headers outside of these
two (by accident most often, but sometimes intentionally).

No programmer is able to safely use any C function until they read its
documentation.

This goes doubly so for functions operating on bit soup, like mem* and
str*.
-- 
Arsen Arsenović

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  reply	other threads:[~2026-08-02 23:08 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 134+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2026-07-31 21:18 [PATCH 0/2] alx-0097r1 - <memory.h>, the legitimate header for memcpy(3) et al Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 21:18 ` [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by <memory.h> Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 21:23   ` Joseph Myers
2026-07-31 21:28     ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 21:54       ` Sam James
2026-07-31 22:18         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01  0:12           ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 14:43           ` Sam James
2026-07-31 21:51     ` on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform (was: [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by <memory.h>) G. Branden Robinson
2026-07-31 21:59       ` on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform Sam James
2026-07-31 22:24         ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-07-31 23:19           ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 14:52           ` Sam James
2026-08-01 12:01         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 12:04           ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 14:38           ` Sam James
2026-08-01 15:15             ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 16:10               ` Sam James
2026-08-01 17:09                 ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 21:34                   ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-01 22:22                     ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 22:26                       ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 13:42                       ` Joseph Myers
2026-08-03 14:22                         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 14:38                         ` on glibc forking/reclaiming its man pages (was: on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform) G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-03 14:44                           ` Joseph Myers
2026-08-03 15:18                             ` G. Branden Robinson
     [not found]                   ` <CAETFuj2OwoyK9J85r2f0RoXbHbXKA4gQJ=JZ-7=QoqGcMwk0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
2026-08-01 22:44                     ` on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 23:24                       ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 23:53                         ` proposed revision to memory.h(3head) (was: on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform) G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-02  0:27                           ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02  1:03                             ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03  0:47                             ` proposed revision to memory.h(3head) Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 17:58                               ` Mark Harris
2026-08-03 18:47                                 ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 20:14                                   ` Mark Harris
2026-08-03 23:36                                     ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-04  3:25                                       ` Mark Harris
2026-08-03 14:10                             ` proposed revision to memory.h(3head) (was: on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform) Joseph Myers
2026-08-03 14:31                               ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02 12:52                         ` on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform Steve Summit
2026-08-02 13:17                           ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02 13:45                             ` Steve Summit
2026-08-02 14:11                               ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02 19:28                                 ` Paul Eggert
2026-08-02 20:31                                   ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03  3:28                                     ` Paul Eggert
2026-08-03 11:39                                       ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 13:23               ` Joseph Myers
2026-08-01 20:18             ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-01 20:42               ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 20:45                 ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 20:52                 ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-01 21:12                   ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 22:10       ` on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform (was: [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by <memory.h>) Joseph Myers
2026-07-31 22:21         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 22:28           ` [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by <memory.h> G. Branden Robinson
2026-07-31 22:42           ` on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform (was: [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by <memory.h>) Joseph Myers
2026-07-31 22:52             ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 23:11               ` Joseph Myers
2026-07-31 23:32                 ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-01 12:39                   ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 14:26                   ` Christopher Bazley
2026-08-01 15:29                     ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 23:45                 ` on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform (was: " Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 12:39                   ` Douglas McIlroy
2026-08-01 19:54                     ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-01 20:35                       ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 23:08             ` [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by <memory.h> G. Branden Robinson
2026-07-31 23:28               ` Joseph Myers
2026-07-31 23:57                 ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-01  0:06                   ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 22:05     ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 22:16       ` Joseph Myers
2026-07-31 22:33         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 23:48     ` [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem, strn}*(): " Collin Funk
2026-07-31 23:52       ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01  0:01         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-04  2:35         ` Thorsten Glaser
2026-07-31 21:19 ` [PATCH 2/2] man/man*/{string.3,memory.h.3head}: Move functions to a new page memory.h(3head) Alejandro Colomar
2026-07-31 21:20 ` [PATCH 0/2] alx-0097r1 - <memory.h>, the legitimate header for memcpy(3) et al Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01  0:25 ` [PATCH v2] man/man3/mem*(): SYNOPSIS: Document non-standard mem*() functions as provided by <memory.h> Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 22:22   ` Bruno Haible
2026-08-01 22:38     ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 22:55       ` Bruno Haible
2026-08-01 23:10         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 23:26           ` Collin Funk
2026-08-01 23:34             ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-01 23:29           ` Paul Eggert
2026-08-01 23:36             ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02  0:08               ` the Linux man-pages as an educational tool (was: [PATCH v2] man/man3/mem*(): SYNOPSIS: Document non-standard mem*() functions as provided by <memory.h>) G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-02  0:45                 ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02  1:04                   ` the Linux man-pages as an educational tool Collin Funk
2026-08-02  1:15                     ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-02  1:15                     ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02  1:49                       ` Collin Funk
2026-08-02 11:29                         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02 11:47                           ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02 12:04                       ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02 21:23                       ` Maciej W. Rozycki
2026-08-02 21:34                         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02 23:08                           ` Arsen Arsenović [this message]
2026-08-02 23:10                             ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-02 23:27                               ` Collin Funk
2026-08-02 23:37                                 ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02 23:41                                   ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-02 23:42                                     ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03  1:12                                       ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03  2:09                                       ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-03 12:21                                         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 14:05                                           ` Sam James
2026-08-03 14:40                                             ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 15:34                                               ` G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-03 16:11                                                 ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 16:15                                               ` Sam James
2026-08-03 16:43                                                 ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 10:28                                   ` the Linux man-pages as an educational tool... and a bit about C Αγαθοκλής Χατζημανίκας
2026-08-03 14:03                                   ` the Linux man-pages as an educational tool Sam James
2026-08-03 14:28                                     ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-04  2:39                                     ` Collin Funk
2026-08-03 16:09                                   ` on project management (was: the Linux man-pages as an educational tool) G. Branden Robinson
2026-08-03 19:46                                     ` enh
2026-08-03 21:09                                       ` on project management Arsen Arsenović
2026-08-02 23:30                               ` the Linux man-pages as an educational tool Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 11:00                               ` Arsen Arsenović
2026-08-03 16:07                           ` Jeffrey Walton
2026-08-03 16:17                             ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 19:31                           ` Joseph Myers
2026-08-03 19:47                             ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 13:51                         ` When and why realloc(,0) was broken in glibc in 1999 Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 12:35                       ` the Linux man-pages as an educational tool Bruno Haible
2026-08-03 13:07                         ` Alejandro Colomar
2026-08-03 19:45                           ` Joseph Myers
2026-08-03 19:50                             ` Alejandro Colomar

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