Outline menu

Outline menu

[Markus Elfring]

Hello,

I suggest to add the capability to present the menu as an outline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline#Sample_alphanumeric_outline

Example boot menu:
A) Windows:
- XP
- Vista

B) Linux:
- Knoppix
- Debian
  * Etch
- Red Hat
  * Fedora
- openSUSE
  * 10.2 release
  * 10.3 debug
- Ubuntu
  * Gutsy Gibbon
- Xen
- Real-time

How do you think about such a hierarchical view for the selection of a great
variety of bootable systems?

Regards,
Markus

Re: Outline menu

[Robert Millan]

Vesa asked for feedback on GUI design a while ago.  CCing!

On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 08:20:22PM +0100, Markus Elfring wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I suggest to add the capability to present the menu as an outline.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline#Sample_alphanumeric_outline
> 
> Example boot menu:
> A) Windows:
> - XP
> - Vista
> 
> B) Linux:
> - Knoppix
> - Debian
>   * Etch
> - Red Hat
>   * Fedora
> - openSUSE
>   * 10.2 release
>   * 10.3 debug
> - Ubuntu
>   * Gutsy Gibbon
> - Xen
> - Real-time
> 
> How do you think about such a hierarchical view for the selection of a great
> variety of bootable systems?
> 
> Regards,
> Markus
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Grub-devel mailing list
> Grub-devel@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/grub-devel
> 

-- 
Robert Millan

<GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call!
<DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
(as seen on /.)

Re: Outline menu

[Vesa Jääskeläinen]

Markus Elfring wrote:
> I suggest to add the capability to present the menu as an outline.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline#Sample_alphanumeric_outline
> 
> Example boot menu:
> A) Windows:
> - XP
> - Vista
> 
> B) Linux:
> - Knoppix
> - Debian
>   * Etch
> - Red Hat
>   * Fedora
> - openSUSE
>   * 10.2 release
>   * 10.3 debug
> - Ubuntu
>   * Gutsy Gibbon
> - Xen
> - Real-time
> 
> How do you think about such a hierarchical view for the selection of a great
> variety of bootable systems?

I don't think it is a big issue, there just needs to be indentation
settings for different levels and some logic to handle it. In "GRUB CSS"
this could be something like:

menuitem {
   left: 0px;
}

menuitem indent1 {
   left: 10px;
}

meunitem indent2 {
   left: 20px;
}

And then add something like:
set menumode=outline
set menumode=hierarchical (or normal, default)

So end result would be something like this:

Windows (menuitem indent0 odd)
-- XP (menuitem indent1 even)
Linux (menuitem indent0 odd)
-- openSUSE (menuitem indent1 even)
---- 10.2 release (menuitem indent2 odd)

Re: Outline menu

[Markus Elfring]

> And then add something like:
> set menumode=outline
> set menumode=hierarchical (or normal, default)

Can a data format like it is specified by the outline markup language be
supported by the GRUB 2 boot loader?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OML

Is an alternative specification needed in this context?

Regards,
Markus

Re: Outline menu

[Amin Azez]

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* Markus Elfring wrote, On 05/11/07 22:01:
>> And then add something like:
>> set menumode=outline
>> set menumode=hierarchical (or normal, default)
>>     
>
> Can a data format like it is specified by the outline markup language be
> supported by the GRUB 2 boot loader?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OML
>
> Is an alternative specification needed in this context?
>   
At the same time, can we consider supporting specification of
alternative short menu texts, suitable for display on 16 character LCD
screens.

I'll be doing some work on grub-legacy to support boot menu's on such
serial-port based displays as soon as I get a firmware update from one
manufacturer.

I hope grub 2 can consider this early on.

Sam

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Re: Outline menu

[Vesa Jääskeläinen]

Markus Elfring wrote:
>> And then add something like:
>> set menumode=outline
>> set menumode=hierarchical (or normal, default)
> 
> Can a data format like it is specified by the outline markup language be
> supported by the GRUB 2 boot loader?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OML

I do not fancy XML for the boot loader... and I do not see a need to yet
another configuration file format for menus. We already have menu
command that can be used to build menus. Perhaps you can convince me
otherwise?

Re: Outline menu

[Vesa Jääskeläinen]

Amin Azez wrote:
> * Markus Elfring wrote, On 05/11/07 22:01:
>>> And then add something like:
>>> set menumode=outline
>>> set menumode=hierarchical (or normal, default)
>>>     
>>
>> Can a data format like it is specified by the outline markup language be
>> supported by the GRUB 2 boot loader?
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OML
>>
>> Is an alternative specification needed in this context?
>>   
> At the same time, can we consider supporting specification of
> alternative short menu texts, suitable for display on 16 character LCD
> screens.
> 
> I'll be doing some work on grub-legacy to support boot menu's on such
> serial-port based displays as soon as I get a firmware update from one
> manufacturer.
> 
> I hope grub 2 can consider this early on.

It will be more modular than old grub legacy hacks. But I fear you need
to hack this yourself :). Basicly current idea is that you just
re-implement viewer/controller module for the menu.

But using both serial (text terminal) and graphical menu could be an
issue that could be solved... could be nice feature for servers as a
backup control.

Re: Outline menu

[Markus Elfring]

> I do not fancy XML for the boot loader... and I do not see a need to yet
> another configuration file format for menus. We already have menu
> command that can be used to build menus. Perhaps you can convince me
> otherwise?

I imagine that GRUB can become so flexible that it can be specified which data
formats should be parsed. If the target boot environment has not got enough
resources for XML and XSLT processing, an customised configuration file format
must be used to specify the required menu attributes. Do you know any other
standard file format for outlines that might be more resource-friendly?

Regards,
Markus

Re: Outline menu

[Vesa Jääskeläinen]

Markus Elfring wrote:
>> I do not fancy XML for the boot loader... and I do not see a need to yet
>> another configuration file format for menus. We already have menu
>> command that can be used to build menus. Perhaps you can convince me
>> otherwise?
> 
> I imagine that GRUB can become so flexible that it can be specified which data
> formats should be parsed. If the target boot environment has not got enough
> resources for XML and XSLT processing, an customised configuration file format
> must be used to specify the required menu attributes. Do you know any other
> standard file format for outlines that might be more resource-friendly?

And what is wrong with current config file?

http://grub.enbug.org/grub.cfg

If you refer to layout, then CSS style file should be suitable. We don't
even need to support everything, just a custom subset so we can define
everything that is needed. Configuring layout style file would just be
another command or environment variable.

You can read my idea of visual layout from "Layout testing for graphical
menu" in mailing list archive:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/grub-devel/2007-10/msg00103.html

Please explain your agenda so it is easier to discuss it. File format is
just a way to store information, nothing more. We are here talking about
functionality before making any final choices (which can be of course
replaced in future if there becomes more superior choice to choose from).

Re: Outline menu

[Amin Azez]

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* Vesa Jääskeläinen wrote, On 06/11/07 21:37:
> Amin Azez wrote:
>   
>>
>> At the same time, can we consider supporting specification of
>> alternative short menu texts, suitable for display on 16 character LCD
>> screens.
>>
>> I'll be doing some work on grub-legacy to support boot menu's on such
>> serial-port based displays as soon as I get a firmware update from one
>> manufacturer.
>>
>> I hope grub 2 can consider this early on.
>>     
>
> It will be more modular than old grub legacy hacks. But I fear you need
> to hack this yourself :). Basicly current idea is that you just
> re-implement viewer/controller module for the menu.
>
> But using both serial (text terminal) and graphical menu could be an
> issue that could be solved... could be nice feature for servers as a
> backup control.
>   

I will hack it support of the display myself, but I want the config file
to recognize that some displays are small and support provision of an
alternate small-title.

I want this to be a property of a menu entry, specifiable in the config
file, representable in the menu item structs, etc. That much is beyond
my scope as it affects grub2 as a whole.

Perhaps it would be simpler to just suggest something as simple as tab
character would delimit the short text from the full text, rather than
make the changes I suggested. It would be a hack and less intrusive, but
I would rather grub2 had the capability to deal with constrained displays.

Sam


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Re: Outline menu

[Markus Elfring]

> And what is wrong with current config file?
> http://grub.enbug.org/grub.cfg

How much documentation is available for this domain-specific language?
Does a grammar exist for the data format?
http://grub.enbug.org/Subprojects/GraphicalMenu

I imagine that additional attributes will be needed.
- Identifier: optional alphanumeric key
- Parent: index number or menu identifier

I hope that it can be avoided to reinvent a wheel. How much features would you
like to copy from OML or OPML?


> You can read my idea of visual layout from "Layout testing for graphical
> menu" in mailing list archive:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/grub-devel/2007-10/msg00103.html

How much will a browser depend on an operating system?
How near will a boot environment come to OS functionality?

Regards,
Markus

Re: Outline menu

[Vesa Jääskeläinen]

Markus Elfring wrote:
>> And what is wrong with current config file?
>> http://grub.enbug.org/grub.cfg
> 
> How much documentation is available for this domain-specific language?
> Does a grammar exist for the data format?

Marco Gerards has been working on the grub scripting language. So he
might be able to give some insights in case Wiki does not feature enough
information.

> http://grub.enbug.org/Subprojects/GraphicalMenu
> 
> I imagine that additional attributes will be needed.
> - Identifier: optional alphanumeric key
> - Parent: index number or menu identifier

Menu commands can have children already so you would get hierarchy
information from there. Shortcut key you could just add as extra
argument for menu, like --hotkey="1"

In example:

menu "foo" {
  menu "bar" {
    menu "zot" {
    }
  }
}

Though I am not sure how well this outline view is supported by the
current parser. Marco, perhaps you could share some insights?

> I hope that it can be avoided to reinvent a wheel. How much features would you
> like to copy from OML or OPML?

I had a look at example mp3 playlist in opml format and it seems to be
data description language (like what xml is). What we have in grub
script is a scripting language that has commands to construct data (menu).

>> You can read my idea of visual layout from "Layout testing for graphical
>> menu" in mailing list archive:
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/grub-devel/2007-10/msg00103.html
> 
> How much will a browser depend on an operating system?

In case you mean graphical menu, then it does not depend on any
operating system. GRUB is standalone application that executes on system
context.

> How near will a boot environment come to OS functionality?

That I leave unanswered.

Re: Outline menu

[Markus Elfring]

> Menu commands can have children already so you would get hierarchy
> information from there. Shortcut key you could just add as extra
> argument for menu, like --hotkey="1"

Will an explanation of the data format be added to the wiki?


> In example:
> menu "foo" {
>   menu "bar" {
>     menu "zot" {
>     }
>   }
> }

Can an item be reused at different levels in the hierarchy without repetition of
its definition (attribute set)?


> Though I am not sure how well this outline view is supported by the
> current parser. Marco, perhaps you could share some insights?

How is the state of the GRUB 2 menu browser at the moment?


> I had a look at example mp3 playlist in opml format and it seems to be
> data description language (like what xml is). What we have in grub
> script is a scripting language that has commands to construct data (menu).

Is a manual available already?

Regards,
Markus

Re: Outline menu

[Vesa Jääskeläinen]

Markus Elfring wrote:
>> Menu commands can have children already so you would get hierarchy
>> information from there. Shortcut key you could just add as extra
>> argument for menu, like --hotkey="1"
> 
> Will an explanation of the data format be added to the wiki?

I assume someone will at some point write documentation about grub
scripting language. You are free to start the documentation project.
Just to point it out, grub scripting language works like entering
commands in the prompt. Its just a sequence of multiple commands.

Those below are an example what menu definition would look in grub
scripting language:

>> In example:
>> menu "foo" {
>>   menu "bar" {
>>     menu "zot" {
>>     }
>>   }
>> }
> 
> Can an item be reused at different levels in the hierarchy without repetition of
> its definition (attribute set)?

Depending what you mean by attribute set. In case you mean visual look,
then that was the plan you could eg. define menuitem and if you do not
have more stricter definitions then that would be used for every
menuitem. In case you mean cloning menu hierarchy under other name, then
that is not planned (and I do not even see a need for it).

>> Though I am not sure how well this outline view is supported by the
>> current parser. Marco, perhaps you could share some insights?
> 
> How is the state of the GRUB 2 menu browser at the moment?

There is old text menu, and that will be replaced with the new design
when its development starts.

>> I had a look at example mp3 playlist in opml format and it seems to be
>> data description language (like what xml is). What we have in grub
>> script is a scripting language that has commands to construct data (menu).
> 
> Is a manual available already?

See above about grub scripting language.

Re: menu attributes

[Markus Elfring]

> Depending what you mean by attribute set.

- short/long title
- identifier
- description
- parameters
- boot image
- optional ramdisk/initramfs
- colour
- language


> In case you mean cloning menu hierarchy under other name, then
> that is not planned (and I do not even see a need for it).

I'd like to suggest this feature to reduce maintenance efforts if a detailed
categorisation of menu entries will be displayed.
Are there any other means available to share common settings?

Regards,
Markus

Re: Improvements for menu display

[Markus Elfring]

>> How is the state of the GRUB 2 menu browser at the moment?
> There is old text menu, and that will be replaced with the new design
> when its development starts.

Are full-featured forms player applicable in a boot environment?
http://grub.enbug.org/FancyMenu

Would it work to reuse existing standards for current user interfaces?
Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XForms

Regards,
Markus

Re: menu attributes

[Vesa Jääskeläinen]

Markus Elfring wrote:
>> Depending what you mean by attribute set.
> 
> - short/long title
> - identifier
> - description
> - parameters
> - boot image
> - optional ramdisk/initramfs
> - colour
> - language

Some of those are provided already by grub commands through use of
scripting language. See sample grub.cfg at the end of:

http://grub.enbug.org/TestingOnX86

>> In case you mean cloning menu hierarchy under other name, then
>> that is not planned (and I do not even see a need for it).
> 
> I'd like to suggest this feature to reduce maintenance efforts if a detailed
> categorisation of menu entries will be displayed.
> Are there any other means available to share common settings?

If there will be 'for' construct in scripting language, otherwise I do
not see any reason to make things complicated. You are talking about
feature needed by rather limited user base. And even that user base can
use the existing way of declaring menu to fill their needs to show entries.

Please try to remember we are developing a boot loader where really
extensive windowing system is not needed (and would bloat the
requirements of the software).

Re: Outline menu

[Marco Gerards]

Vesa Jääskeläinen <chaac@nic.fi> writes:

> Markus Elfring wrote:
>>> And what is wrong with current config file?
>>> http://grub.enbug.org/grub.cfg
>> 
>> How much documentation is available for this domain-specific language?
>> Does a grammar exist for the data format?
>
> Marco Gerards has been working on the grub scripting language. So he
> might be able to give some insights in case Wiki does not feature enough
> information.

It's supposed to be bash like :)

>> http://grub.enbug.org/Subprojects/GraphicalMenu
>> 
>> I imagine that additional attributes will be needed.
>> - Identifier: optional alphanumeric key
>> - Parent: index number or menu identifier
>
> Menu commands can have children already so you would get hierarchy
> information from there. Shortcut key you could just add as extra
> argument for menu, like --hotkey="1"
>
> In example:
>
> menu "foo" {
>   menu "bar" {
>     menu "zot" {
>     }
>   }
> }
>
> Though I am not sure how well this outline view is supported by the
> current parser. Marco, perhaps you could share some insights?

Personally I first want to focus on getting what we have to work,
before even thinking about anything else.  Ideas are good, but having
*something* to use is better :-)

--
Marco

Re: Outline menu

[Marco Gerards]

Markus Elfring <Markus.Elfring@web.de> writes:

>> Menu commands can have children already so you would get hierarchy
>> information from there. Shortcut key you could just add as extra
>> argument for menu, like --hotkey="1"
>
> Will an explanation of the data format be added to the wiki?
>
>
>> In example:
>> menu "foo" {
>>   menu "bar" {
>>     menu "zot" {
>>     }
>>   }
>> }
>
> Can an item be reused at different levels in the hierarchy without repetition of
> its definition (attribute set)?

I want to make something to generate menu entries from a script.  Is
that what you mean?

>> Though I am not sure how well this outline view is supported by the
>> current parser. Marco, perhaps you could share some insights?
>
> How is the state of the GRUB 2 menu browser at the moment?

It's not stable yet.  Especially the scripting needs to be worked on.

>> I had a look at example mp3 playlist in opml format and it seems to be
>> data description language (like what xml is). What we have in grub
>> script is a scripting language that has commands to construct data (menu).
>
> Is a manual available already?

No, do you want to work on this?

--
Marco

Re: Outline menu

[Markus Elfring]

> Personally I first want to focus on getting what we have to work,
> before even thinking about anything else.  Ideas are good, but having
> *something* to use is better :-)

It seems that all relevant design aspects are not clear at the moment.
I would prefer a bit more clarity about the open issues.

Regards,
Markus

Re: Outline menu

[Markus Elfring]

> I want to make something to generate menu entries from a script.
> Is that what you mean?

I see two places where common settings could be written.
1. menu configuration
2. source code generation script

Where do you want to place them?

Regards,
Markus

Re: Outline menu

[Marco Gerards]

Markus Elfring <Markus.Elfring@web.de> writes:

>> Personally I first want to focus on getting what we have to work,
>> before even thinking about anything else.  Ideas are good, but having
>> *something* to use is better :-)
>
> It seems that all relevant design aspects are not clear at the moment.
> I would prefer a bit more clarity about the open issues.

Why not?  It has been discussed on the list before.

--
Marco

Re: Outline menu

[Marco Gerards]

Markus Elfring <Markus.Elfring@web.de> writes:

>> I want to make something to generate menu entries from a script.
>> Is that what you mean?
>
> I see two places where common settings could be written.
> 1. menu configuration
> 2. source code generation script
>
> Where do you want to place them?

Both, if I understand you correctly.  The scripting language should
eventually be capable of generating meny entries.

--
Marco

Re: software design clarification

[Markus Elfring]

> Why not?  It has been discussed on the list before.

Would you like to point to any information sources where I can read about the
consensus that was achieved on the software design?
Are the applied design issues only visible in the source code so far?

Regards,
Markus