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From: ebiederm@xmission.com (Eric W. Biederman)
To: Sukadev Bhattiprolu <sukadev@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Cc: Pavel Emelyanov <xemul@parallels.com>,
	Daniel Lezcano <daniel.lezcano@free.fr>,
	Linux Netdev List <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
	containers@lists.linux-foundation.org,
	Netfilter Development Mailinglist
	<netfilter-devel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH] ns: Syscalls for better namespace sharing control.
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 14:13:37 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <m1y6iaqsmm.fsf@fess.ebiederm.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20100302211942.GA17816@us.ibm.com> (Sukadev Bhattiprolu's message of "Tue\, 2 Mar 2010 13\:19\:42 -0800")

Sukadev Bhattiprolu <sukadev@linux.vnet.ibm.com> writes:

> Pavel Emelyanov [xemul@parallels.com] wrote:
> | > I agree with all the points you and Pavel you talked about but I don't 
> | > feel comfortable to have the current process to switch the pid namespace 
> | > because of the process tree hierarchy (what will be the parent of the 
> | > process when you enter the pid namespace for example).
> | 
> | The answer is - the one, that used to be. I see no problems with it.
> | Do you?
>
> Just to be clear, when a process unshares its pid namespace, it takes
> on additional pid nr (== 1) in the new namespace but retains its original
> pid nr(s) in the parent (ancestor) namespaces right ?
>
> i.e the process becomes the container-init of the new namespace. When it
> exits, all its children belonging to the new namespace are killed too,
> but any children in the parent namespace (i.e children created before
> unshare()) are not killed.
>
> After the unshare() the process will not be able to signal any children
> it created before the unshare() (bc their active pid namespaces are
> different)

The only case that I see as being simple and unsurprising worked a bit
differently:

We currently have:

ns_of_pid(task_pid(tsk))
tsk->nsproxy->pid_ns


I would reduce the usage of tsk->nsproxy->pid_ns as much as possible,
and use ns_of_pid(task_pid(tsk)) for all of the routine things that
need to know the pid namespace of a process.  Possibly even to the point
or reversing the order of the upid array so using it is more efficient.

I would leave tsk->nsproxy->pid_ns for use by fork/clone when allocating
a childs pid number.

The unsharing process would have to become the child reaper.  I think the first
child would become pid 1 in that pid namespace.


>From an implementation point of view who gets pid 1 when the child_reaper is
not visible inside the pid namespace doesn't make much difference but we would
want to carefully look at the details so we minimize userspace confusion.


I don't think a process tree rooted at pid 0 is a show stopper.  It is
somewhat confusing but we already have a forked process tree today,
and user space certainly hasn't fallen over.  In the case of a join if you want
to live in properly in the process tree you can daemonize and become a child
of init.




I think replacing a struct pid for another struct pid allocated in
descendant pid_namespace (but has all of the same struct upid values
as the first struct pid) is a disastrous idea.  It destroys the
uniqueness of struct pid and we have a lot of places where we check
that for equality of pid pointers, and that now would be broken.
Otherthings like proc directories also used a cached struct pid and
would start thinking the process was gone when it was not.

Eric

  parent reply	other threads:[~2010-03-02 22:13 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 183+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2010-01-14 14:05 RFC: netfilter: nf_conntrack: add support for "conntrack zones" Patrick McHardy
2010-01-14 15:05 ` jamal
2010-01-14 15:37   ` Patrick McHardy
2010-01-14 15:37   ` Patrick McHardy
2010-01-14 17:33     ` jamal
2010-01-15 10:15       ` Patrick McHardy
2010-01-15 10:15       ` Patrick McHardy
     [not found]         ` <4B50403A.6010507-dcUjhNyLwpNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
2010-01-15 15:19           ` jamal
2010-01-15 15:19         ` jamal
2010-02-22 20:46           ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-22 21:55             ` jamal
2010-02-22 23:17               ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                 ` <m1wry46es9.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-23 13:27                   ` jamal
2010-02-23 14:07                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-23 14:20                       ` jamal
2010-02-23 20:00                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-23 20:00                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-23 23:09                           ` jamal
2010-02-24  1:43                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-24  1:43                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-25 20:57                             ` [RFC][PATCH] ns: Syscalls for better namespace sharing control Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-25 20:57                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-25 21:31                               ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-02-25 21:49                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-25 22:13                                   ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                     ` <4B86F5EC.60902-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-25 22:31                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-25 22:31                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                   ` <m1mxyx0yv7.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-25 22:13                                     ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-02-26 20:35                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26 20:35                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                 ` <4B86EC45.3060005-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-25 21:49                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-25 21:46                               ` Matt Helsley
     [not found]                                 ` <20100225214656.GS3604-52DBMbEzqgQ/wnmkkaCWp/UQ3DHhIser@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-25 21:54                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26  0:53                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-25 21:54                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26  0:53                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26  1:09                               ` Matt Helsley
     [not found]                                 ` <20100226010915.GA20106-52DBMbEzqgQ/wnmkkaCWp/UQ3DHhIser@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-26  1:26                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26  1:26                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                               ` <m1pr3t2fvl.fsf_-_-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-25 21:31                                 ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-02-25 21:46                                 ` Matt Helsley
2010-02-26  1:09                                 ` Matt Helsley
2010-02-26  3:15                                 ` [RFC][PATCH] ns: Syscalls for better namespace sharing control. v2 Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26 21:13                                 ` [RFC][PATCH] ns: Syscalls for better namespace sharing control Pavel Emelyanov
     [not found]                                   ` <4B883987.6090408-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-26 21:24                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26 21:24                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                     ` <m1bpfbwuze.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-26 21:34                                       ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-02-26 21:35                                       ` Pavel Emelyanov
     [not found]                                         ` <4B883EAF.5020607-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-26 21:49                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26 21:49                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26 21:34                                     ` Pavel Emelyanov
     [not found]                                       ` <4B883E6F.1060907-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-26 21:42                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-26 21:42                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                         ` <m13a0nwu6p.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-26 21:58                                           ` Oren Laadan
2010-02-27  8:30                                           ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-02-26 21:58                                         ` Oren Laadan
2010-02-26 22:16                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                             ` <m1zl2vtzg4.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-26 22:52                                               ` Oren Laadan
2010-02-26 22:52                                             ` Oren Laadan
2010-02-26 23:13                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                               ` <4B885093.4070807-eQaUEPhvms7ENvBUuze7eA@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-26 23:13                                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                           ` <4B8843FE.4000404-eQaUEPhvms7ENvBUuze7eA@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-26 22:16                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-27  8:30                                         ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-02-27  9:04                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                             ` <m1mxyvrqvk.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-27  9:21                                               ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-02-27  9:42                                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-27 16:16                                                   ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-02-27 19:08                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-27 19:29                                                       ` Pavel Emelyanov
     [not found]                                                         ` <4B89727C.9040602-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-27 19:44                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-27 19:44                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                           ` <m1ljeempk6.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-28 22:05                                                             ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-02-28 22:05                                                           ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-03-01 19:24                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                             ` <4B8AE8C1.1030305-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-01 19:24                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-01 21:42                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-02 15:03                                                               ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-03-03 20:59                                                               ` Oren Laadan
2010-03-01 21:42                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-02 13:10                                                               ` Cedric Le Goater
     [not found]                                                               ` <m1ljebwwgd.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-02 13:10                                                                 ` Cedric Le Goater
2010-03-02 15:03                                                             ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-03-02 15:14                                                               ` Jan Engelhardt
     [not found]                                                                 ` <alpine.LSU.2.01.1003021613570.17303-SHaQjdQMGhDmsUXKMKRlFA@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-02 21:45                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-02 21:45                                                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                               ` <4B8D28CF.8060304-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-02 15:14                                                                 ` Jan Engelhardt
2010-03-02 21:19                                                                 ` Sukadev Bhattiprolu
2010-03-02 21:19                                                               ` Sukadev Bhattiprolu
     [not found]                                                                 ` <20100302211942.GA17816-r/Jw6+rmf7HQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-02 22:13                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-02 22:13                                                                 ` Eric W. Biederman [this message]
     [not found]                                                                   ` <m1y6iaqsmm.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-03  0:07                                                                     ` Sukadev Bhattiprolu
2010-03-03  0:07                                                                   ` Sukadev Bhattiprolu
2010-03-03  0:46                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-03 15:38                                                                       ` Serge E. Hallyn
     [not found]                                                                         ` <20100303153800.GA937-r/Jw6+rmf7HQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-03 19:47                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-03 19:47                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                           ` <m13a0hmblr.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-04 21:45                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-04 21:45                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                             ` <m1pr3j92x8.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-04 22:55                                                                               ` Jan Engelhardt
2010-03-04 22:55                                                                             ` Jan Engelhardt
     [not found]                                                                       ` <m1ocj6qljj.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-03 15:38                                                                         ` Serge E. Hallyn
2010-03-03 16:50                                                                         ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-03-03 16:50                                                                       ` Pavel Emelyanov
     [not found]                                                                         ` <4B8E9370.3050300-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-03 20:16                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-03 20:16                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                           ` <m17hptjh3m.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-05 19:18                                                                             ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-03-05 19:18                                                                           ` Pavel Emelyanov
2010-03-05 20:26                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-06 14:47                                                                               ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                                                                 ` <4B926B1B.5070207-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-06 20:48                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                                     ` <m1aaulyy5c.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-06 21:26                                                                                       ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-03-08  8:32                                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-08 16:54                                                                                           ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-03-08 17:29                                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                                               ` <m11vfuvi1t.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 19:57                                                                                                 ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-03-08 19:57                                                                                               ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                                                                                 ` <4B9556A9.60206-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 20:24                                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-08 20:24                                                                                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-08 20:42                                                                                                   ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                                                                                     ` <4B95611C.5060403-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 20:47                                                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-08 20:47                                                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-08 21:12                                                                                                       ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                                                                                         ` <4B956852.7050804-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 21:25                                                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-08 21:25                                                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-08 21:49                                                                                                           ` Serge E. Hallyn
2010-03-08 22:24                                                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                                                             ` <20100308214945.GA26617-r/Jw6+rmf7HQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 22:24                                                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                                                           ` <m1lje2qzf4.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 21:49                                                                                                             ` Serge E. Hallyn
2010-03-09 10:03                                                                                                             ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-03-10 21:16                                                                                                             ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-03-09 10:03                                                                                                           ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-03-09 10:13                                                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                                                               ` <m1ocixn6q3.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-09 10:26                                                                                                                 ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-03-09 10:26                                                                                                               ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                                                                                             ` <4B961D09.4010802-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-09 10:13                                                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-10 21:16                                                                                                           ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                                                                                       ` <m1sk8ar15b.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 21:12                                                                                                         ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                                                                                   ` <m11vfusgsa.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 20:42                                                                                                     ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                                                                             ` <4B952BBE.6070507-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 17:29                                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                                           ` <m1fx4bxlfy.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 16:54                                                                                             ` Daniel Lezcano
2010-03-08 17:07                                                                                             ` Serge E. Hallyn
2010-03-08 17:07                                                                                           ` Serge E. Hallyn
2010-03-08 17:35                                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                                               ` <m1pr3eu36u.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 17:47                                                                                                 ` Serge E. Hallyn
2010-03-08 17:47                                                                                               ` Serge E. Hallyn
     [not found]                                                                                             ` <20100308170719.GD6399-r/Jw6+rmf7HQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08 17:35                                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                                         ` <4B92C886.9020507-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-08  8:32                                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                             ` <4B9158F5.5040205-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-05 20:26                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                     ` <20100303000743.GA13744-r/Jw6+rmf7HQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-03  0:46                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-03 20:59                                                             ` Oren Laadan
     [not found]                                                               ` <4B8ECD99.3040107-eQaUEPhvms7ENvBUuze7eA@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-03 21:05                                                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-03-03 21:05                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                                 ` <m18wa9glpo.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-05-27 12:06                                                                   ` [Devel] " Enrico Weigelt
     [not found]                                                       ` <m1iq9io5sc.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-27 19:29                                                         ` Pavel Emelyanov
     [not found]                                                     ` <4B894564.7080104-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-27 19:08                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                                   ` <m1bpfbqajn.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-27 16:16                                                     ` Pavel Emelyanov
     [not found]                                                 ` <4B88E431.6040609-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-27  9:42                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                           ` <4B88D80A.8010701-bzQdu9zFT3WakBO8gow8eQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-27  9:04                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-05-27 12:28                                 ` [Devel] " Enrico Weigelt
     [not found]                                   ` <20100527122800.GC31480-q9I3ByPDOfiE+EvaaNYduQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-05-27 12:44                                     ` Daniel Lezcano
     [not found]                                       ` <4BFE6938.50607-GANU6spQydw@public.gmane.org>
2010-05-27 15:42                                         ` Enrico Weigelt
2010-02-26  3:15                               ` [RFC][PATCH] ns: Syscalls for better namespace sharing control. v2 Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                 ` <m18wagy9f3.fsf_-_-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-03 20:29                                   ` Jonathan Corbet
2010-03-03 20:29                                     ` Jonathan Corbet
2010-03-03 20:50                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                                     ` <20100303132931.11afb659-vw3g6Xz/EtPk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-03-03 20:50                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]                           ` <m1r5obbu2w.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-23 23:09                             ` RFC: netfilter: nf_conntrack: add support for "conntrack zones" jamal
2010-02-23 23:49                             ` Matt Helsley
2010-02-23 23:49                           ` Matt Helsley
     [not found]                             ` <20100223234942.GO3604-52DBMbEzqgQ/wnmkkaCWp/UQ3DHhIser@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-24  1:32                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-24  1:32                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-24  1:39                               ` Serge E. Hallyn
     [not found]                               ` <m18waj2zc8.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-24  1:39                                 ` Serge E. Hallyn
     [not found]                       ` <m1iq9ocafv.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-23 14:20                         ` jamal
2010-02-23 14:07                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2010-02-22 23:17               ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]             ` <m13a0tf17t.fsf-+imSwln9KH6u2/kzUuoCbdi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2010-02-22 21:55               ` jamal
2010-02-22 20:46           ` Eric W. Biederman
     [not found]     ` <4B4F3A50.1050400-dcUjhNyLwpNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
2010-01-14 17:33       ` jamal
2010-01-14 18:32   ` Ben Greear
     [not found]     ` <4B4F6332.50606-my8/4N5VtI7c+919tysfdA@public.gmane.org>
2010-01-15 15:03       ` jamal
2010-01-15 15:03     ` jamal
     [not found] ` <4B4F24AC.70105-dcUjhNyLwpNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
2010-01-14 15:05   ` jamal

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