transparent internet via radio

transparent internet via radio

[A Gilmore]

Having always had high-speed internet available, I have never looked
into radio technology before.  However, I have been asked recently if
providing internet to a number of locations (varying between 10-50km
away from central computer lab) is possible.  Neither dial-up or
broadband is accessible in these locations.

So I started looking into radio.  I will have one LAN with broadband
internet, and remote LANs without any internet access.  The idea is to
put a TNC equipped linux gateway at each remote location, to tunnel
TCP/IP over AX.25 to the central LAN with broadband, and route the
TCP/IP from there.

Is this feasible?  Can speed be in the 28kbps or better range? 
Generally how much would the radio equipment cost?  Is providing
transparent internet by these means difficult, regarding routing and
interfacing the protocols?

Sorry if these questions are vague or overly simple, Id just like to
know if this is possible before I spend the next several days
researching it.  Most of the information I have found so far, has been
out-dated, and mostly focused on using TCP/IP to carry AX.25, rather
then the vice-versa.
Adrien

Re: transparent internet via radio

[Andrew Bates]

Adrien,

You should investigate using wireless ethernet (802.11b).  Several of 
the 802.11b channels are in the Amateur spectrum.  Also, the equipment 
is widely available and quite afordable.  By utilizing yagi or parabolic 
antennas and good transcievers, you should be able to achieve a 15 mile 
distance while maintaining at least 1mbps or better.

Of course, one of the drawbacks is that 802.11b requires nearly a 
line-of-site path as 2ghz signals are easily reflected or absorbed by 
obstructions.

Hope this helps!
Andrew/KB0LND

A Gilmore wrote:

>Having always had high-speed internet available, I have never looked
>into radio technology before.  However, I have been asked recently if
>providing internet to a number of locations (varying between 10-50km
>away from central computer lab) is possible.  Neither dial-up or
>broadband is accessible in these locations.
>
>So I started looking into radio.  I will have one LAN with broadband
>internet, and remote LANs without any internet access.  The idea is to
>put a TNC equipped linux gateway at each remote location, to tunnel
>TCP/IP over AX.25 to the central LAN with broadband, and route the
>TCP/IP from there.
>
>Is this feasible?  Can speed be in the 28kbps or better range? 
>Generally how much would the radio equipment cost?  Is providing
>transparent internet by these means difficult, regarding routing and
>interfacing the protocols?
>
>Sorry if these questions are vague or overly simple, Id just like to
>know if this is possible before I spend the next several days
>researching it.  Most of the information I have found so far, has been
>out-dated, and mostly focused on using TCP/IP to carry AX.25, rather
>then the vice-versa.
>Adrien
>
>-
>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
>the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>  
>

Re: transparent internet via radio

[Bob Nielsen]

See the AX25-HOWTO for information on tcp/ip over AX.25.  

The WA4DSY modem will do 56 kbps (http://www.paccomm.com).  It operates
at 29 MHz and must be used with a transverter for the appropriate band. 
Some hams in Slovenia have designed high speed equipment, see
http://hamradio.si/hid.html for some links.


On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 04:56:49PM -0700, A Gilmore wrote:
> Having always had high-speed internet available, I have never looked
> into radio technology before.  However, I have been asked recently if
> providing internet to a number of locations (varying between 10-50km
> away from central computer lab) is possible.  Neither dial-up or
> broadband is accessible in these locations.
> 
> So I started looking into radio.  I will have one LAN with broadband
> internet, and remote LANs without any internet access.  The idea is to
> put a TNC equipped linux gateway at each remote location, to tunnel
> TCP/IP over AX.25 to the central LAN with broadband, and route the
> TCP/IP from there.
> 
> Is this feasible?  Can speed be in the 28kbps or better range? 
> Generally how much would the radio equipment cost?  Is providing
> transparent internet by these means difficult, regarding routing and
> interfacing the protocols?
> 
> Sorry if these questions are vague or overly simple, Id just like to
> know if this is possible before I spend the next several days
> researching it.  Most of the information I have found so far, has been
> out-dated, and mostly focused on using TCP/IP to carry AX.25, rather
> then the vice-versa.
> Adrien
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

-- 
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          n7xy (at) n7xy.net
Bainbridge Island, WA                      http://www.n7xy.net
 

RE: transparent internet via radio

[John Feist]

Yup, we have 56k here in San Diego on 70cm, been up for several years 25
miles point-to-point. Some folks up North are using 802.11b 6-7 miles at 6~7
Mbit.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Bob Nielsen
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:59 PM
To: linux-hams@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: transparent internet via radio


See the AX25-HOWTO for information on tcp/ip over AX.25.

The WA4DSY modem will do 56 kbps (http://www.paccomm.com).  It operates
at 29 MHz and must be used with a transverter for the appropriate band.
Some hams in Slovenia have designed high speed equipment, see
http://hamradio.si/hid.html for some links.


On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 04:56:49PM -0700, A Gilmore wrote:
> Having always had high-speed internet available, I have never looked
> into radio technology before.  However, I have been asked recently if
> providing internet to a number of locations (varying between 10-50km
> away from central computer lab) is possible.  Neither dial-up or
> broadband is accessible in these locations.
>
> So I started looking into radio.  I will have one LAN with broadband
> internet, and remote LANs without any internet access.  The idea is to
> put a TNC equipped linux gateway at each remote location, to tunnel
> TCP/IP over AX.25 to the central LAN with broadband, and route the
> TCP/IP from there.
>
> Is this feasible?  Can speed be in the 28kbps or better range?
> Generally how much would the radio equipment cost?  Is providing
> transparent internet by these means difficult, regarding routing and
> interfacing the protocols?
>
> Sorry if these questions are vague or overly simple, Id just like to
> know if this is possible before I spend the next several days
> researching it.  Most of the information I have found so far, has been
> out-dated, and mostly focused on using TCP/IP to carry AX.25, rather
> then the vice-versa.
> Adrien
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

--
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          n7xy (at) n7xy.net
Bainbridge Island, WA                      http://www.n7xy.net

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Re: transparent internet via radio

[M Taylor]

On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 04:56:49PM -0700, A Gilmore wrote:
> Having always had high-speed internet available, I have never looked
> into radio technology before.  However, I have been asked recently if
> providing internet to a number of locations (varying between 10-50km
> 
> So I started looking into radio.  I will have one LAN with broadband
> internet, and remote LANs without any internet access.  The idea is to
> 
> Is this feasible?  Can speed be in the 28kbps or better range? 
> Generally how much would the radio equipment cost?  Is providing
> transparent internet by these means difficult, regarding routing and
> interfacing the protocols?

Are you a licensed amateur radio (ham) operator? You don't mention
a callsign, and some of your questions seem quite basic regarding
VHF & higher propagation, which suggests perhaps you are not.

Amateur radio in Canada and elsewhere has content restrictions and
is for non-commercial usage, which are not agreeable to most people's
general Internet usage. So for general wireless Internet access,
I suspect that the amateur radio solution is not the best general
solution.

I would suggest looking into license-free/exempt "WiFi" or 802.11(b)
wireless ethernet. These are low cost (cheaper than a commercial TNC
in most cases) devices provide low power (often 100mW) 2.4 GHz
(microwave) with speeds up to 11Mbps (802.11b) or higher (802.11g).
With a clear line of sight, and a small directional antenna
you can easily get a stable connection over 10km or more.

I would not recommend consumer oriented 802.11b for a Wireless ISP
(WISP) as they tend to have serious issues scaling, and the
license-free status means you must tolerate intereference.

See BC Wireless for more Canadian specific information:
<http://www.bcwireless.net/>

-ve1mct

Re: transparent internet via radio

[Dennis Boone]

 >  > Having always had high-speed internet available, I have never looked
 >  > into radio technology before.  However, I have been asked recently if
 >  > providing internet to a number of locations (varying between 10-50km

 >  > Is this feasible?  Can speed be in the 28kbps or better range?
 >  > Generally how much would the radio equipment cost?  Is providing
 >  > transparent internet by these means difficult, regarding routing and
 >  > interfacing the protocols?

 > Amateur radio in Canada and elsewhere has content restrictions and is
 > for non-commercial usage, which are not agreeable to most people's
 > general Internet usage. So for general wireless Internet access, I
 > suspect that the amateur radio solution is not the best general
 > solution.

However it is certainly feasible to use similar or identical gear on a
licensed commercial frequency.  Kantronics and other amateur packet
manufacturers make most of their money selling to commercial
entities.

Since the gear is sold for these purposes, presumably it is possible
to get a business band license for point-to-point data circuits.  I
should think it would be relatively simple to get 56k data rates over
circuits of the length described, assuming terrain cooperates, on
VHF-low or -high frequencies.  In the U.S., for example, there have
been packet networks spanning a number of southeastern states,
e.g. SEDAN.  Needed equipment would be a mast or tower at each
location, beam antennas at most locations (perhaps a vertical at the
central point), data radios, modems capable of the desired speed,
license, and a fair amount of knowledge to integrate it all.

 > I would suggest looking into license-free/exempt "WiFi" or 802.11(b)
 > wireless ethernet. These are low cost (cheaper than a commercial TNC
 > in most cases) devices provide low power (often 100mW) 2.4 GHz
 > (microwave) with speeds up to 11Mbps (802.11b) or higher (802.11g).
 > With a clear line of sight, and a small directional antenna you can
 > easily get a stable connection over 10km or more.

But he specified up to 50 km, which is probably NOT feasible with
802.x technology, at least without relay stations.

Dennis Boone
KB8ZQZ

Re: transparent internet via radio

[Jeroen Vreeken]

On 2003.08.25 16:41:30 +0200 Dennis Boone wrote:
> 
> But he specified up to 50 km, which is probably NOT feasible with
> 802.x technology, at least without relay stations.
> 

I believe the record at the moment is 70km between Gran Canaria and
Tenerife....
So it is possible you just need very good antennas and some coordination
and luck to set it up.
As he wanted relativly low speeds the decrease in speed to 1mbit for 802.11
shouldn't be much of a problem.

Jeroen

Re: transparent internet via radio

[Jaime Robles]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

El Lunes, 25 de Agosto de 2003 20:35, Jeroen Vreeken escribió:
> On 2003.08.25 16:41:30 +0200 Dennis Boone wrote:
> > But he specified up to 50 km, which is probably NOT feasible with
> > 802.x technology, at least without relay stations.
> I believe the record at the moment is 70km between Gran Canaria and
> Tenerife....
Yes, people from canariaswireless and ACRI ftp'ed between Gran Canaria & 
Tenerife last year.
It was a link done just for the record and it is not a stable link but it is 
possible :-)

http://www.canariaswireless.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=143&mode=&order=0&thold=0

- -- 
Un saludo,
	Jaime Robles, EA4TV
	jaime@robles.nu

Visita:
   http://jaime.robles.nu
   http://www.redlibre.net - La Red Libre de todos!		
   http://smsdx.net - El DXCluster en tu movil!

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Re: transparent internet via radio

[Dennis Boone]

 > El Lunes, 25 de Agosto de 2003 20:35, Jeroen Vreeken escribió:
 > > On 2003.08.25 16:41:30 +0200 Dennis Boone wrote:
 > > > But he specified up to 50 km, which is probably NOT feasible with
 > > > 802.x technology, at least without relay stations.

 > > I believe the record at the moment is 70km between Gran Canaria and
 > > Tenerife....

 > Yes, people from canariaswireless and ACRI ftp'ed between Gran Canaria
 > & Tenerife last year.  It was a link done just for the record and it
 > is not a stable link but it is possible :-)

And I suspect over-water ducting played a part in that contact.  Over
land it might well be hard to match, even as an experiment with
optimum conditions.

Dennis Boone
KB8ZQZ
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