[Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Stephen Gaudet]

http://msnbc-cnet.com.com/2100-1012-996357.html?type=pt&part=msnbc&tag=alert
&formþed&subj=cnetnews

Stephen Gaudet
 .....
<(©¿©)>
----------------------
Wild Open Source
Bedford, NH 03110
pH: 603-488-1599
cell: 603-498-1600
Home: 603-472-8040
http://www.wildopensource.com

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Grant Grundler]

On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 01:04:04PM -0400, Stephen Gaudet wrote:
> 
> http://msnbc-cnet.com.com/2100-1012-996357.html?type=pt&part=msnbc&tag=alert
> &formþed&subj=cnetnews

...
| That barrier has hindered adoption of Itanium in broad business markets,
| but it's been less of a problem in the supercomputing niche, where
| customers often control their own software instead of relying on products
| such as Oracle's database or Computer Associates' management software.

Gah!
Both Oracle and Computer Associates have ia64-linux product available.

grant

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Duraid Madina]

You and I both know the only real barrier to Itanium adoption is the 
price. Can anyone here shed some light on this? Why is Itanium hardware 
still so expensive?

Seriously, IA64 must be the first architecture in history where a 
software simulator is still being developed 4 years after commercial 
availability of silicon (indeed, entire systems).

Hello? Is anyone home? If Intel thinks an 0.13u respin of Itanium 2 
going for $1000 a pop is going to save them from the horrible onslaught 
of horrible hardware (x86-64 ;) it'd seem they have another thing coming!

We live in Carly times. :\

	Duraid


Grant Grundler wrote:
> Gah!
> Both Oracle and Computer Associates have ia64-linux product available.

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[David Mosberger]

>>>>> On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:55:30 +1000, Duraid Madina <duraid@octopus.com.au> said:

  Duraid> You and I both know the only real barrier to Itanium
  Duraid> adoption is the price. Can anyone here shed some light on
  Duraid> this? Why is Itanium hardware still so expensive?

Remember that Intel is targeting Itanium 2 against Power4 and SPARC.
In that space, the price of Itanium 2 is very competitive.

  Duraid> Seriously, IA64 must be the first architecture in history
  Duraid> where a software simulator is still being developed 4 years
  Duraid> after commercial availability of silicon (indeed, entire
  Duraid> systems).

What's a software simulator got to do with anything?  Certain things
are easier to develop on a simulator, others are easier to develop on
hardware.  Nothing unique to IA64.

	--david

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Randolph Chung]

> What's a software simulator got to do with anything?  Certain things
> are easier to develop on a simulator, others are easier to develop on
> hardware.  Nothing unique to IA64.

hear hear... i might have access to a bunch of parisc hardware, but i
would love to get my hands on a good parisc simulator. 

i setup the ia64 simulator to play with kernel modules support.. but now
that david got it working... :-)

randolph
-- 
Randolph Chung
Debian GNU/Linux Developer, hppa/ia64 ports
http://www.tausq.org/

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Duraid Madina]

David Mosberger wrote:
> Remember that Intel is targeting Itanium 2 against Power4 and SPARC.
> In that space, the price of Itanium 2 is very competitive.

OK, I want to be clear on this. I asked why Itanium hardware is still so 
expensive. Your answer seems to be marketing speak for "The prices are 
still high because we are _happy_ selling small quantities of this 
equipment to people used to paying through the nose for good quality 
hardware." Is this correct?

Can I then conclude that Intel has not yet had any interest whatsoever 
in driving IA64 into the realm of reasonble prices? It's sad to see so 
much work being put into this Linux port when, if things remain as they 
are, it will hardly be used.

>   Duraid> Seriously, IA64 must be the first architecture in history
>   Duraid> where a software simulator is still being developed 4 years
>   Duraid> after commercial availability of silicon (indeed, entire
>   Duraid> systems).
> 
> What's a software simulator got to do with anything?  Certain things
> are easier to develop on a simulator, others are easier to develop on
> hardware.  Nothing unique to IA64.

I put it to you that software is easier to develop on hardware. Nothing 
unique to IA64, indeed.

	Duraid

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Bob Drzyzgula]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 09:58:08AM +1000, Duraid Madina wrote:
> 
> David Mosberger wrote:
> >Remember that Intel is targeting Itanium 2 against Power4 and SPARC.
> >In that space, the price of Itanium 2 is very competitive.
> 
> OK, I want to be clear on this. I asked why Itanium hardware is still so 
> expensive. Your answer seems to be marketing speak for "The prices are 
> still high because we are _happy_ selling small quantities of this 
> equipment to people used to paying through the nose for good quality 
> hardware." Is this correct?

I'm not sure that it works this way. I think it's more like
"We are making the best processor we know (or, perhaps,
"knew", or "thought we knew", or even "allowed ourselves
to know") how to make that will/would/might in our dreams
be profitable to sell at this high price in moderate
quantities." I expect that if they could sell one hundred
times as many Itaniums at a tenth the price, they would
ramp up the fabs and do it. But then you get into the
chicken-or-egg problem: There's no software, and hence
no demand, and hence no software, and hence no demand,
that would justify the production of a hundred times as
many Itaniums.

> Can I then conclude that Intel has not yet had any interest whatsoever 
> in driving IA64 into the realm of reasonble prices? It's sad to see so 
> much work being put into this Linux port when, if things remain as they 
> are, it will hardly be used.

Be careful that you put the horse before the cart.
Might it not be that the people doing this work are
wagering that it will ultimately cause demand for
the Itanium to increase? Could it really be expected
that demand for Itanium *would* materialize without
such investment in software happening first?

In any event, virtually nothing remains as it is.

--Bob Drzyzgula

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Matt Chapman]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 09:58:08AM +1000, Duraid Madina wrote:
> 
> Can I then conclude that Intel has not yet had any interest whatsoever 
> in driving IA64 into the realm of reasonble prices?

My understanding is that Deerfield will be targeted at the lower cost
market, though I haven't seen much info about it recently.

> I put it to you that software is easier to develop on hardware. Nothing 
> unique to IA64, indeed.

We still use simulators despite the availability of hardware.  Operating
system software is often easier to debug on a simulator.

Matt

RE: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Adriano Galano]

> >>>>> On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:55:30 +1000, Duraid Madina 
> <duraid@octopus.com.au> said:
> 
>   Duraid> You and I both know the only real barrier to Itanium
>   Duraid> adoption is the price. Can anyone here shed some light on
>   Duraid> this? Why is Itanium hardware still so expensive?
> 
> Remember that Intel is targeting Itanium 2 against Power4 and SPARC.
> In that space, the price of Itanium 2 is very competitive.
> 

What's mean very competitive? How it compare with Power* for example? 

>   Duraid> Seriously, IA64 must be the first architecture in history
>   Duraid> where a software simulator is still being developed 4 years
>   Duraid> after commercial availability of silicon (indeed, entire
>   Duraid> systems).
> 
> What's a software simulator got to do with anything?  Certain things
> are easier to develop on a simulator, others are easier to develop on
> hardware.  Nothing unique to IA64.
> 

AMD's Opteron is in a simulator yet...

Regards,

--Adriano

RE: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[David Mosberger]

>>>>> On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:37:39 +0200, "Adriano Galano" <adriano@satec.es> said:

  >> >>>>> On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:55:30 +1000, Duraid Madina
  >> <duraid@octopus.com.au> said:

  Duraid> You and I both know the only real barrier to Itanium
  Duraid> adoption is the price. Can anyone here shed some light on
  Duraid> this? Why is Itanium hardware still so expensive?

  >> Remember that Intel is targeting Itanium 2 against Power4 and SPARC.
  >> In that space, the price of Itanium 2 is very competitive.

  Adriano> What's mean very competitive? How it compare with Power* for example?

AFAIK, Power4 CPUs are not sold on the open market, so it's difficult
to compare the price of the CPU alone (surely IBM has a list price,
but with different discount schedules, that price may or may not be
meaningful in practice).  Here is one real price point for an Itanium 2
workstation:

	- hp workstation zx2000 (Linux software enablement kit)
	-  Intel? Itanium 2 900MHz Processor with 1.5MB on-chip L3 cache
	-  512MB Total PC2100 Registered ECC DDR 266 SDRAM Memory (2x256MB)
	-  40GB EIDE Hard Drive
	-  NVIDIA Quadro2 EX
	-  10/100/1000BT LAN integrated
	-  16X Max DVD-ROM
	-  Linux software enablement kit (not an operating system)
	-  3-year warranty, next-day, onsite hardware response, Mon - Fri, 8am - 5pm
	- $3,298

(To see this config, go to www.hp.com, then click on "online shopping"
-> "small and medium business store" -> "workstations" -> "hp Itanium
2-based workstations" -> "zx2000").

I don't know exactly what price/configuration Power4 machines start.
Perhaps one of the IBMers on this list could chime in?

	--david

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Duraid Madina]

David,

	Itanium 2 isn't even competitive with other offerings from your own 
company. Compare:

David Mosberger wrote:
> Here is one real price point for an Itanium 2 workstation:
> 
> 	- hp workstation zx2000 (Linux software enablement kit)
> 	-  Intel? Itanium 2 900MHz Processor with 1.5MB on-chip L3 cache
> 	-  512MB Total PC2100 Registered ECC DDR 266 SDRAM Memory (2x256MB)
> 	-  40GB EIDE Hard Drive
> 	-  NVIDIA Quadro2 EX
> 	-  10/100/1000BT LAN integrated
> 	-  16X Max DVD-ROM
> 	-  Linux software enablement kit (not an operating system)
> 	-  3-year warranty, next-day, onsite hardware response, Mon - Fri, 8am - 5pm
> 	- $3,298

with:

	- HP server rp2430
	- 1xHP PA-8700 650MHz CPU with 2.25MB on-chip L1 cache
	- 128MB Roughly-2GB/sec-God-Knows-What ECC Memory
	- HP-UX 11i
	- 1-year warranty, next-day onsite hardware response
	- $1,095

	(missing things like disk, a reasonable amount of RAM, etc can be 
brought to the level of the Itanium system you quote for another $700 or 
so - to see this config, go to www.e-solutions.hp.com, and try to buy an 
rp2430 (HP part #A6889A))

	I bought one of these, and it is excellent (if a little loud. ;) I 
would happily buy a bare-bones Itanium 2 system at the same price. This 
doesn't seem to like it's going to be possible any time soon. In less 
than two weeks, I will be able to buy an Opteron system that runs a 
great deal faster at the same price.

	Good luck.

	Duraid

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Grant Grundler]

On Sat, Apr 12, 2003 at 06:31:58AM +1000, Duraid Madina wrote:
> Itanium 2 isn't even competitive with other offerings from your own company.

Try comparing like products.

Single CPU rp2430 is about 1/4 to 1/2 the perf of dual zx6000 depending
on what one measures.

grant

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Stephen Gaudet]

Bob Drzyzgula wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 09:58:08AM +1000, Duraid Madina wrote:
> 
>>David Mosberger wrote:
>>
>>>Remember that Intel is targeting Itanium 2 against Power4 and SPARC.
>>>In that space, the price of Itanium 2 is very competitive.
>>
>>OK, I want to be clear on this. I asked why Itanium hardware is still so 
>>expensive. Your answer seems to be marketing speak for "The prices are 
>>still high because we are _happy_ selling small quantities of this 
>>equipment to people used to paying through the nose for good quality 
>>hardware." Is this correct?
> 
> I'm not sure that it works this way. I think it's more like
> "We are making the best processor we know (or, perhaps,
> "knew", or "thought we knew", or even "allowed ourselves
> to know") how to make that will/would/might in our dreams
> be profitable to sell at this high price in moderate
> quantities." I expect that if they could sell one hundred
> times as many Itaniums at a tenth the price, they would
> ramp up the fabs and do it. But then you get into the
> chicken-or-egg problem: There's no software, and hence
> no demand, and hence no software, and hence no demand,
> that would justify the production of a hundred times as
> many Itaniums.

Based on over 25 years in computers owning a company for 5 years you see 
this change in the computing market over time.  When I sold Alpha based 
systems there was always a bitch about cost.

However, people that needed the compute cycles were more than willing to 
purchase Alpha over Intel because of what it brought them in total TCO. 
  More compute cycles, memory and bandwith.

Main problem was Digital at the time, was they never knew how to sell 
Alpha other than with UNIX.  They tried selling it with MS Windows and 
never made a dent in the market until OEM's starting selling it in the 
3D space with a little package called Renderman.  This was big hit with 
film studios.   Remember the movie Titanic?  Rendered on Alpha to give 
you a time line. The fastest cpu was a 21064, 275MHz and a system cost 
about $12,000.00.

The Alpha market started to take off when Digital screwed up with a 
product call the Multia.  This was a 21066 processor, 166Mhz or 233Mhz. 
The Multia was Digital's attempt to build a X terminal for Windows NT. 
It failed and left DEC with 15,000 of these pigs sitting around.

Now Digital needed to get rid of them quick. The plan was to sell them
with Linux and hopefully develop the Linux space.  These Multia/UDB sold 
for less than $2000.00. That's when Alpha started to take off. I 
personally sold tons of them. In fact, in a former life I even sold a 
system or two to David Mosberger.

So I'll agree that when the cost comes down more people will get involved
with the ia64.

BTW: Intel is looking to release a single cpu version of the ia64 
sometime this year.  When this happens I believe you'll see the market 
open up.

>>Can I then conclude that Intel has not yet had any interest whatsoever 
>>in driving IA64 into the realm of reasonble prices? It's sad to see so 
>>much work being put into this Linux port when, if things remain as they 
>>are, it will hardly be used.

Main reason as David alluded to these systems are meant to compete with 
high end Sun, HP and IBM servers.  Not in the commodity market. 
Remember, the cost in R&D on ia64 development.

> Be careful that you put the horse before the cart.
> Might it not be that the people doing this work are
> wagering that it will ultimately cause demand for
> the Itanium to increase? Could it really be expected
> that demand for Itanium *would* materialize without
> such investment in software happening first?
> 
> In any event, virtually nothing remains as it is.

Myself I wouldn't worry, over time Intel has a way of getting the price 
down.  Heck, Dell has P4 desktops selling for $449.00 and notebooks for 
$799.00.  Wow.

Cheers,

Steve Gaudet
  .....
<(©¿©)>
----------------------
Wild Open Source
Bedford, NH 03110
pH: 603-488-1599
cell: 603-498-1600
Home: 603-472-8040
http://www.wildopensource.com

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Duraid Madina]

Grant Grundler wrote:
> Try comparing like products.
> 
> Single CPU rp2430 is about 1/4 to 1/2 the perf of dual zx6000 depending
> on what one measures.

Isn't a single CPU rp2430 somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 the price of a 
dual zx6000?

	Duraid

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Grant Grundler]

On Sat, Apr 12, 2003 at 06:55:01AM +1000, Duraid Madina wrote:
> Isn't a single CPU rp2430 somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 the price of a 
> dual zx6000?

Dunno. is it?
Try comparing dual rp2470 and dual rx2600 with similar products
from other vendors.

David wrote:
|       - hp workstation zx2000 (Linux software enablement kit)
|	- Intel? Itanium 2 900MHz Processor with 1.5MB on-chip L3 cache

Sorry - my bad.  I misread that as "2x 900 Mhz".

Anyway, my point still stands, comparing a "server" (rackable, remote console)
with a "workstation" (3D gfx, sound, DVD-ROM) has alot of variables and
different folks value these things differently.  But even here, I would
guess the difference in CPU perf alone is 2x or more by most measures.
Yes, I know the price is 3x but other things make zx2000 attract to
a different set of customers (like linux support).

grant

Re: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[David Mosberger]

>>>>> On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:25:16 -0700, Grant Grundler <iod00d@hp.com> said:

  Grant> Anyway, my point still stands, comparing a "server" (rackable, remote console)
  Grant> with a "workstation" (3D gfx, sound, DVD-ROM) has alot of variables and
  Grant> different folks value these things differently.  But even here, I would
  Grant> guess the difference in CPU perf alone is 2x or more by most measures.
  Grant> Yes, I know the price is 3x but other things make zx2000 attract to
  Grant> a different set of customers (like linux support).

Also, don't forget memory bandwidth.

The zx2000 is a very nice workstation.  Granted, it's not $1k, but it
doesn't perform like a Multia either!  And yes, it's quiet, too (I use
one as my main workstation these days... ;-)

As for what the future holds, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Remember though: just a year ago, the cheapest ia64 workstation you
could get was priced at $7k+.  This year, you can get a zx2000 for
$3k+, so, judging from where I sit, prices certainly are coming down.

	--david

RE: [Linux-ia64] Itanium gets supercomputing software

[Van Maren, Kevin]

> I don't know exactly what price/configuration Power4 machines start.
> Perhaps one of the IBMers on this list could chime in?
> 
> 	--david

Okay, my turn to plug: Itanium 2-based systems _are_ very competitive
with RISC machines, even at the mid-range and high end.

Unisys is currently selling 4 to 16-processor Itanium 2 machines.
They are very competitively priced against mid-sized RISC machines,
although pricing information is not available on the web.
SCO's UnitedLinux will be available as soon as SCO ships.
http://www.unisys.com/products/es7000__servers/hardware/aries__130.htm

For a quote in North America, you can contact Rob Luke, rob.luke@unisys.com
(801) 594-5088.  I can get you contact info for other parts of the world.

Kevin Van Maren
Unisys