Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

[Helge Kreutzmann]

Without further ado, the following was found:

the manpage-l10n project maintains a large number of translations of
man pages both from a large variety of sources (including man-pages) as
well for a large variety of target languages.

During their work translators notice different possible issues in the
original (english) man pages. Sometimes this is a straightforward
typo, sometimes a hard to read sentence, sometimes this is a
convention not held up and sometimes we simply do not understand the
original.

We use several distributions as sources and update regularly (at
least every 2 month). This means we are fairly recent (some
distributions like archlinux also update frequently) but might miss
the latest upstream version once in a while, so the error might be
already fixed. We apologize and ask you to close the issue immediately
if this should be the case, but given the huge volume of projects and
the very limited number of volunteers we are not able to double check
each and every issue.

Secondly we translators see the manpages in the neutral po format,
i.e. converted and harmonized, but not the original source (be it man,
groff, xml or other). So we cannot provide a true patch (where
possible), but only an approximation which you need to convert into
your source format.

Finally the issues I'm reporting have accumulated over time and are
not always discovered by me, so sometimes my description of the
problem my be a bit limited - do not hesitate to ask so we can clarify
them.

I'm now reporting the errors for your project. If future reports
should use another channel, please let me know.

Please note that B<> means bold and I<> means italic.

Re: Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

[Seth David Schoen]

Hi Helge,

I am not the maintainer or anything, but I think it's great that
translators give feedback on the original text.

I have two disagreements with your changes:

(1) You proposed correcting "null byte" to "NUL byte".  However, "null
byte" is a standard way to refer to a byte with the numerical value of
zero.  This byte is also the same as the ASCII character NUL; it could
be regarded as the "encoding" of that character.

(2) You proposed correcting "runlevel" to "run level".  The word
"runlevel" is a coinage by operating system developers; in ordinary
English it would indeed have to be two words, but it's common to write
it with no space in this context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runlevel

Re: Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

[Helge Kreutzmann]

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Hello Seth,
On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 10:56:34AM -0800, Seth David Schoen wrote:
> I am not the maintainer or anything, but I think it's great that
> translators give feedback on the original text.
> 
> I have two disagreements with your changes:
> 
> (1) You proposed correcting "null byte" to "NUL byte".  However, "null
> byte" is a standard way to refer to a byte with the numerical value of
> zero.  This byte is also the same as the ASCII character NUL; it could
> be regarded as the "encoding" of that character.

I'm not a programmer, so please use the correct term. I *try* to
"guess" right, but it's ultimatively up to you.

> (2) You proposed correcting "runlevel" to "run level".  The word
> "runlevel" is a coinage by operating system developers; in ordinary
> English it would indeed have to be two words, but it's common to write
> it with no space in this context.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runlevel

Then please use it consistenly, because within one man page several
spellings are used. As a translator you wonder if both refer to the
same concept.

Greetings

         Helge

-- 
      Dr. Helge Kreutzmann                     debian@helgefjell.de
           Dipl.-Phys.                   http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
        64bit GNU powered                     gpg signed mail preferred
           Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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Re: Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Seth, Helge,

On 3/11/23 19:56, Seth David Schoen wrote:
> Hi Helge,
> 
> I am not the maintainer or anything, but I think it's great that
> translators give feedback on the original text.
> 
> I have two disagreements with your changes:
> 
> (1) You proposed correcting "null byte" to "NUL byte".  However, "null
> byte" is a standard way to refer to a byte with the numerical value of
> zero.  This byte is also the same as the ASCII character NUL; it could
> be regarded as the "encoding" of that character.

Agree.

> 
> (2) You proposed correcting "runlevel" to "run level".  The word
> "runlevel" is a coinage by operating system developers; in ordinary
> English it would indeed have to be two words, but it's common to write
> it with no space in this context.

About this, in the Linux man-pages we tend to favor correct English,
and not words like runlevel or userspace.  So, when it is a noun it
is run level, and when it's an adjective, it's run-level.  I'll have
a look at it, and see what needs fixing.

Cheers,

Alex

> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runlevel

-- 
<http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5

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Re: Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Helge, Seth,

On 3/12/23 00:29, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
>> (2) You proposed correcting "runlevel" to "run level".  The word
>> "runlevel" is a coinage by operating system developers; in ordinary
>> English it would indeed have to be two words, but it's common to write
>> it with no space in this context.
> 
> About this, in the Linux man-pages we tend to favor correct English,
> and not words like runlevel or userspace.  So, when it is a noun it
> is run level, and when it's an adjective, it's run-level.  I'll have
> a look at it, and see what needs fixing.

I applied this patch:

<https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages.git/commit/?id=d7a062de4fe5209acb585df03d5f8a2ea27a730f>

Cheers,

Alex

-- 
<http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5

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Re: Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

[Helge Kreutzmann]

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Hello Alex,
On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 12:29:45AM +0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> On 3/11/23 19:56, Seth David Schoen wrote:
> > I am not the maintainer or anything, but I think it's great that
> > translators give feedback on the original text.
> > 
> > I have two disagreements with your changes:

> > (2) You proposed correcting "runlevel" to "run level".  The word
> > "runlevel" is a coinage by operating system developers; in ordinary
> > English it would indeed have to be two words, but it's common to write
> > it with no space in this context.
> 
> About this, in the Linux man-pages we tend to favor correct English,
> and not words like runlevel or userspace.  So, when it is a noun it
> is run level, and when it's an adjective, it's run-level.  I'll have
> a look at it, and see what needs fixing.

Sigh, learning more and more the finer details of English.

I just wonder, since these are technical documents, if this is
supporting understanding or reducing it? Personllay I prefer one word
for one concept.

Just to complete the picture: Is "runlevel" (i.e. one word) ever
correct?

Greetings

        Helge

-- 
      Dr. Helge Kreutzmann                     debian@helgefjell.de
           Dipl.-Phys.                   http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
        64bit GNU powered                     gpg signed mail preferred
           Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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Re: Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

[Seth David Schoen]

Helge Kreutzmann writes:

> Sigh, learning more and more the finer details of English.
> 
> I just wonder, since these are technical documents, if this is
> supporting understanding or reducing it? Personllay I prefer one word
> for one concept.

There's a commonly-suggested rule in style guides that "open" compound
nouns (those still written as multiple distinct words) should be
hyphenated when used to modify another noun, but not when an open
compound noun occurs as a noun by itself.

So for example, we might have "Richard Stallman wrote several
free-software licenses", but "Richard Stallman originated the modern
concept of free software".

This is described, for example, at

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/hyphen-rules-open-closed-compound-words

although this source is less prescriptive and definitive than some
others.

That source also describes a trend where newly-coined English compounds
are usually regarded as separate words for some time, but people
increasingly see them as single words (with a multiword etymology) after
acquiring greater familiarity with them.  In this case, it seems that
the man page editors feel that "run level" is too unfamiliar or recent
as a technical term to be widely understood as a single word (so my
intuition -- that it could be a single word -- is, in a way, further
along in the process).  The Merriam-Webster article seems to imply that,
after a few more decades, more people may become comfortable with
"runlevel" as a single word, assuming we continue to use that same term
frequently for the same concept.

The hyphenation rule for an open compound (in the sense described in
the Merriam-Webster article) modifying another noun, as opposed to an
open compound standing alone as a noun, is not completely universal and
might not be understood by all English learners, but it's a rule that's
very, very commonly suggested by teachers and grammar references.  It
would not be uncommon for both native and non-native English speakers to
have been taught some version of this rule in school at some point.

We might sort of analogize it to the German rule for the case where a
proper name is used as a part of the proper name of something else
(like a street, school, or prize).  There German expects to hyphenate
the entire resulting phrase, like

Heinrich-Böll-Preis
Kaiser-Wilhelm-Universität
Karl-Marx-Allee
Käthe-Kollwitz-Preis
Max-Ernst-Stipendium
Richard-Strauss-Straße
Sankt-Johann-der-Täufer-Kirche

even though the original proper names (Heinrich Böll, Kaiser Wilhelm,
Karl Marx, etc.) aren't hyphenated when used in their original sense to
refer to _people_.  While this English rule isn't exactly the same,
it also shows a propensity for using a hyphen when a noun is used in
one context, but not when the same noun is used in a different context.

Re: Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

[Helge Kreutzmann]

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Hello Seth,
On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 09:47:10PM -0800, Seth David Schoen wrote:
> Helge Kreutzmann writes:
> 
> > Sigh, learning more and more the finer details of English.
> > 
> > I just wonder, since these are technical documents, if this is
> > supporting understanding or reducing it? Personllay I prefer one word
> > for one concept.
> 
> There's a commonly-suggested rule in style guides that "open" compound
> nouns (those still written as multiple distinct words) should be
> hyphenated when used to modify another noun, but not when an open
> compound noun occurs as a noun by itself.
> 
> So for example, we might have "Richard Stallman wrote several
> free-software licenses", but "Richard Stallman originated the modern
> concept of free software".

Thanks for this extensive explanation. I simply guess there are
several englishes and it evolves (as stated by the article you cited).
When I was in school (this includes American high school in early
90's) I think I learned that hyphens are quite uncommon in english.
Recently I also got the explanation, that "email" is correct (as well
as e-mail is).

> We might sort of analogize it to the German rule for the case where a
> proper name is used as a part of the proper name of something else
> (like a street, school, or prize).  There German expects to hyphenate
> the entire resulting phrase, like
> 
> Heinrich-Böll-Preis
…
> even though the original proper names (Heinrich Böll, Kaiser Wilhelm,
> Karl Marx, etc.) aren't hyphenated when used in their original sense to
> refer to _people_.  While this English rule isn't exactly the same,
> it also shows a propensity for using a hyphen when a noun is used in
> one context, but not when the same noun is used in a different context.

As a German native speaker, this sort of reminded me on this one.
(Just to note, that this rule is a little bit more complicated and
also evolving).

Probably this is a similar trend like with commas. As I never mastered
them correctly in English in school, I asked a PhD student for English
(in a German university) about the rules and she basically said: if in
doubt, don't use a comma. And gave me a few cheat sheets when commas
are used. This was ~ 15 years ago.

Now I see many commas, like we do in German. Including large commits
adding them.

I just wonder if reporting "errors" like these in man-pages makes
sense. Looking at this conversion you are very well aware of all the
details of English, so my 5 cents are probably more distracting /
confusing than helpful? (Though I learn a lot form them).

Greetings

        Helge

-- 
      Dr. Helge Kreutzmann                     debian@helgefjell.de
           Dipl.-Phys.                   http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
        64bit GNU powered                     gpg signed mail preferred
           Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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Re: Dear linux man-pages maintainer,

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Helge,

On 3/12/23 07:02, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> 
> I just wonder if reporting "errors" like these in man-pages makes
> sense.

Yes, it makes sense :)

> Looking at this conversion you are very well aware of all the
> details of English, so my 5 cents are probably more distracting /
> confusing than helpful?

Nope, not distracting at all.  They help me notice details I didn't
think of (I've already applied many patches thanks to your reports.

Please continue reporting stuff you find.  If I later discard some
of them is not a problem.  Some others will help fix things.

> (Though I learn a lot form them).
> 
> Greetings
> 
>         Helge

Cheers,

Alex

> 

-- 
<http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5

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