Indy Documentation

Indy Documentation

[Ulf Carlsson]

Hi,

I have some happy news.  After writing up a 47-lines bash script that would
search every IRIX machine at SGI in parallel I managed to find most of the
Indy documentation in electronic form.  I tried about 6000 machines before I
found anything, and it took me almost 9 hours of hard work.  The biggest
problem I had was that I ran into the open file limit in Linux so I could only
search 250 machines at the same time.  Why is it so?

This is the contents of the directory:

-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     427532 Sep 23  1998 dmux1.showcase
dr--r--r--    2 guest    guest       4096 Sep 23  1998 gio64
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     413144 Sep 23  1998 hpc3.showcase
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     260096 Sep 23  1998 ioc.spec.frame
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     411688 Sep 23  1998 mc.showcase
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     217662 Sep 23  1998 pbus.doc
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     197632 Sep 23  1998 rb2.spec.frame
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     852059 Sep 23  1998 rex3.spec.ps
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     169984 Sep 23  1998 ro1.spec.frame
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     552960 Sep 23  1998 vc2.spec.frame
dr--r--r--    2 guest    guest       4096 Sep 23  1998 vino
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     414720 Sep 23  1998 xmap9.spec.frame
-r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     176437 Sep 23  1998 xmap9.spec.ps

I don't know if I will be allowed to distribute this, but it's at least a huge
step from the paper documentation that we have now.  I'll convert it to
postscript so that we can read it..

Cheers,
Ulf

Re: Indy Documentation

[Guido Guenther]

This looks very promising. Hopefully you'll be allowed to open the
X files to non sgi people ;)
 -- Guido

On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:21:56AM -0700, Ulf Carlsson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have some happy news.  After writing up a 47-lines bash script that would
> search every IRIX machine at SGI in parallel I managed to find most of the
> Indy documentation in electronic form.  I tried about 6000 machines before I
> found anything, and it took me almost 9 hours of hard work.  The biggest
> problem I had was that I ran into the open file limit in Linux so I could only
> search 250 machines at the same time.  Why is it so?
> 
> This is the contents of the directory:
> 
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     427532 Sep 23  1998 dmux1.showcase
> dr--r--r--    2 guest    guest       4096 Sep 23  1998 gio64
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     413144 Sep 23  1998 hpc3.showcase
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     260096 Sep 23  1998 ioc.spec.frame
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     411688 Sep 23  1998 mc.showcase
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     217662 Sep 23  1998 pbus.doc
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     197632 Sep 23  1998 rb2.spec.frame
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     852059 Sep 23  1998 rex3.spec.ps
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     169984 Sep 23  1998 ro1.spec.frame
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     552960 Sep 23  1998 vc2.spec.frame
> dr--r--r--    2 guest    guest       4096 Sep 23  1998 vino
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     414720 Sep 23  1998 xmap9.spec.frame
> -r--r--r--    1 guest    guest     176437 Sep 23  1998 xmap9.spec.ps
> 
> I don't know if I will be allowed to distribute this, but it's at least a huge
> step from the paper documentation that we have now.  I'll convert it to
> postscript so that we can read it..
> 
> Cheers,
> Ulf
> 

-- 
GPG-Public Key: http://honk.physik.uni-konstanz.de/~agx/guenther.gpg.asc

Re: Indy Documentation

[Florian Lohoff]

On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 03:42:33PM +0200, Guido Guenther wrote:
> 
> This looks very promising. Hopefully you'll be allowed to open the
> X files to non sgi people ;)

Otherwiese everybody signes a 1 US$/y contract with SGI :)

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff		flo@rfc822.org		      	+49-subject-2-change
"Technology is a constant battle between manufacturers producing bigger and
more idiot-proof systems and nature producing bigger and better idiots."

Re: Indy Documentation

[Florian Lohoff]

On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:21:56AM -0700, Ulf Carlsson wrote:
> Subject: Indy Documentation

> I don't know if I will be allowed to distribute this, but it's at least a huge
> step from the paper documentation that we have now.  I'll convert it to
> postscript so that we can read it..

Just a dump question - before all this documentation is lost - Might
there be also Documentation for Indigo, Indigo2 and the other
GFX Adapters like {Solid,Maximum,Extreme} Impact etc ?

Someday somebody might be interested in doing more work
for the Indigo and then there is no documentation avail.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff		flo@rfc822.org		      	+49-subject-2-change
"Technology is a constant battle between manufacturers producing bigger and
more idiot-proof systems and nature producing bigger and better idiots."

Re: Indy Documentation

[Geert Uytterhoeven]

On Sat, 13 May 2000, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:21:56AM -0700, Ulf Carlsson wrote:
> > Subject: Indy Documentation
> 
> > I don't know if I will be allowed to distribute this, but it's at least a huge
> > step from the paper documentation that we have now.  I'll convert it to
> > postscript so that we can read it..
> 
> Just a dump question - before all this documentation is lost - Might
> there be also Documentation for Indigo, Indigo2 and the other
> GFX Adapters like {Solid,Maximum,Extreme} Impact etc ?
> 
> Someday somebody might be interested in doing more work
> for the Indigo and then there is no documentation avail.

YES! Time to put _all_ docs you can find on CDR. I always keep all technical
docs I download to store them on CDR from time to time, since those docs tend
to vanish after a while (especially if they were on the manufacturer's
website).

Gr{oetje,eeting}s,

						Geert

--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- geert@linux-m68k.org

In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
							    -- Linus Torvalds

Re: Indy Documentation

[Ralf Baechle]

On Sun, May 14, 2000 at 08:58:18PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:

> YES! Time to put _all_ docs you can find on CDR. I always keep all technical
> docs I download to store them on CDR from time to time, since those docs tend
> to vanish after a while (especially if they were on the manufacturer's
> website).

More documentation jewels - I've got now paper copies of R8000 documentation
and a collection of stuff regarding the R6000.  I was told that the R6000
was so buggy that understanding the internal circuitry is a prerequisite
for writing an OS bug now I got everything we need.  Except a R6000
machine :-)

Also I found that there is still a huge pile of Exabyte tapes that have the
final full backup from the day when MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.  was
shutdown by SGI after MIPS got bought in the early 90's.  That means that
provided the legal problems involved with publication of such documentation
get solved we now have everything that is required to support every machine
ever made by MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.

  Ralf

Re: Indy Documentation

[Florian Lohoff]

On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 11:23:58PM +0200, Ralf Baechle wrote:
> On Sun, May 14, 2000 at 08:58:18PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> 
> > YES! Time to put _all_ docs you can find on CDR. I always keep all technical
> > docs I download to store them on CDR from time to time, since those docs tend
> > to vanish after a while (especially if they were on the manufacturer's
> > website).
> 
> More documentation jewels - I've got now paper copies of R8000 documentation
> and a collection of stuff regarding the R6000.  I was told that the R6000
> was so buggy that understanding the internal circuitry is a prerequisite
> for writing an OS bug now I got everything we need.  Except a R6000
> machine :-)

What is the license or publishing restrictions of those documents ?

> Also I found that there is still a huge pile of Exabyte tapes that have the
> final full backup from the day when MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.  was
> shutdown by SGI after MIPS got bought in the early 90's.  That means that
> provided the legal problems involved with publication of such documentation
> get solved we now have everything that is required to support every machine
> ever made by MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.

How will these legal issues be brought on the track ? I think both
companies (SGI + Mips) should have an interest to free up these documents
or at least hand out to some people who sign some kind of NDA.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff		flo@rfc822.org		      	+49-subject-2-change
"Technology is a constant battle between manufacturers producing bigger and
more idiot-proof systems and nature producing bigger and better idiots."

Re: Indy Documentation

[Ralf Baechle]

On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 12:08:30PM +0200, Florian Lohoff wrote:

> > More documentation jewels - I've got now paper copies of R8000
> > documentation and a collection of stuff regarding the R6000.  I was told
> > that the R6000 was so buggy that understanding the internal circuitry is
> > a prerequisite for writing an OS bug now I got everything we need.
> > Except a R6000 machine :-)
> 
> What is the license or publishing restrictions of those documents ?

No idea.

> How will these legal issues be brought on the track ? I think both
> companies (SGI + Mips) should have an interest to free up these documents
> or at least hand out to some people who sign some kind of NDA.

This is all about rather old machines and also involves investing some
resources so the interest is limited.  Unfortunately this is a quite generic
truth which is valid far beyond the borders of this case and these two
companies.

  Ralf

Re: Indy Documentation

[Ralf Baechle]

On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 01:16:58PM +0200, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote:

>  I wish companies released specs for products getting out of commercial
> interest on a regular basis.  I believe this would assure their customers
> of a good investment in hardware their purchased, as it would make it
> supportable infinitely, i.e. until it physically dies.  It would make it
> more valuable even if a customer decides it's not needed anymore -- it
> would be salable to Linux users, for example.  Otherwise these systems
> qualify as computer junk and this sort of equipment is expensive to get
> rid of. 

This world also has an economic part and there a machine that is written
of in the books, that is after just a few years, has no more value and
even becomes a burden.  So in most companies perfectly usable and even
adequate configured machines get replaced.  At this point the manufacturers'
interested in supplying services also decays because there is just no more
sufficient customer demand and economic justification to keep spare parts
(read: dead capital) and trained personal.  For private customers it's
not that much different, usually the machine goes to the dustbin when
the newest slash & kill 3D games are turning into a slide show.  So
after just a few years most manufacturers will flush everything including
the old documentation down the drain.  Add the fact that the companies
of interest are mostly US located where people change their job more
often than their pants ...

Specs are a bit special, though.  You wouldn't believe how many high
tech specs don't exist in a form that is publishable.  That's very common
in places where the authors of the specs and it's readers are close to
each other, that is in traditional system companies such as Digital, SGI,
Sun or HP.  Their motivation to actually produce high quality documentation
used to be relativly low since at the time of product development the
assumption was that they'd never ever publish the specs.

Free operating systems are changing the rules of the game, so expect
the way documentation is handled to change as well.

  Ralf

Re: Indy Documentation

[Nancy Bigham]

Florian Lohoff wrote:
> 
[...]
> 
> What is the license or publishing restrictions of those documents ?
> 

The documentation is copyrighted by SGI. Attached are two sections from
internal web pages at SGi explaining copyright infringement and fair use
of copyright material.

For more information on U.S. laws regarding copyrights, see
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html

===============
WHAT IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT?

Copyright infringement occurs where someone copies all or a significant
portion of a copyrighted work. 

To prove infringement, a copyright holder must demonstrate that the
alleged infringer had access to the original work (typically a
reasonable opportunity to see or hear it), and that the infringer's
resulting work
was substantially similar thereto. The copyright holder need not prove
such access where the similarity between the works is so striking as to
preclude the possibility that one was created without reference to the
other. 

Although this is still a developing area of the law, courts have held
computer software copyrights infringed when object code was
disassembled, translated into another language, modified, or emulated by
utilizing
the same "structure, sequence, and organization" as the original. Under
this rule, it is entirely possible that one software program could
infringe the copyright of another without having a single line of code
identical to the copyrighted work. On a more basic level, literal
copying of a work (or even a small but significant
portion) will also infringe the original. 

Silicon Graphics is committed to protecting its works (especially
software programs) through copyright registration, and to avoiding
copyright infringement by company employees. Please bring any suspected
copyright infringement to Legal Services' attention as quickly as
possible. 

For specific information regarding Silicon Graphics' position on
copyright infringement, see Legal Services' document called
"Intellectual Property Policies and Guidelines" 

WHAT IS "FAIR USE"OF A COPYRIGHTED WORK? 

Not all copying of copyrighted works is illegal. The "fair use" doctrine
allows unauthorized copying of all or portions of copyrighted works in
certain instances, but typically on a "not-for-profit" basis. Since most
Silicon Graphics' uses are on a "for-profit" basis, as they are in
connection with our business, we are unlikely to meet these
requirements. 

Therefore, if you wish to use tables, figures, pictures, sound,
extensive quotations, or other aspects of a copyrighted work, we must
first secure the written permission of the work's author. When in doubt,
please
assume that you need such authorization, and contact Legal Services for
assistance. 
=======

The short answer is that Ralf cannot make copies and distribute the
documents he has without permission from SGI. Seeing how I gave him the
docs, I can certainly talk to our legal department to see if it's
possible to allow him to make copies. 

We would have to take the contents of the Exabyte types under the same
consideration - i.e. review for legal rights to distribute contents.
It's quite possible that there are contents on backup tapes that SGI has
no right to redistribute.

Nancy
-- 
Nancy Bigham
SGI          MS 8U-500   650 933-1608   bigham@engr.sgi.com

Re: Indy Documentation

[Florian Lohoff]

On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 10:17:16AM -0700, Nancy Bigham wrote:
> The short answer is that Ralf cannot make copies and distribute the
> documents he has without permission from SGI. Seeing how I gave him the
> docs, I can certainly talk to our legal department to see if it's
> possible to allow him to make copies. 
> 
> We would have to take the contents of the Exabyte types under the same
> consideration - i.e. review for legal rights to distribute contents.
> It's quite possible that there are contents on backup tapes that SGI has
> no right to redistribute.

Could you bring this on the track ? There are a coule of people
really interested in getting documentation even for VERY old
machines which are Technically still alive.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff		flo@rfc822.org		      	+49-subject-2-change
"Technology is a constant battle between manufacturers producing bigger and
more idiot-proof systems and nature producing bigger and better idiots."

Re: Indy Documentation

[Jan-Benedict Glaw]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2320 bytes --]

On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:32:48PM +0200, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:21:56AM -0700, Ulf Carlsson wrote:
> > Subject: Indy Documentation
> 
> Someday somebody might be interested in doing more work
> for the Indigo and then there is no documentation avail.

Doing "more" work for Indigo? Well, what work has actually be done up to
now to support linux on this (okay, quite old...) box?

- The R3k is supported by gcc (I think R3000 support is mainly used for
  the DECStations?)
- Glibc2.2 will be available in near future and hopefully fully
  functional;)

But:

- No kernel support so far (okay, one try to make it run, but this 
  resulted in an exception right after tftp'ing the kernel image to
  the machine)

Personally I'd like to do work on an Indigo as I got one, but it seems
to only be a no-documentation-available problem. (I remember I got some
email address of a woman working at SGI I should have contacted a week
or two ago...).

I'd love to sign a 1US$/year contract with SGI as Flo suggested, but
this doesn't ease (nor solve) the problem. Even if I would get some
sources from eg Irix5.2 (to figure out the bootstrap process) I wouldn't
be allowed to use it in GPL'ed work because of parts being licensed
from other companies;(

However, there were some documents found. Save them. Save them at a
very save place as they might disappear which is somewhat "normal"
for documentation;) Maybe there will (at some certain time) be someone
at SGI who has got enough spare time to evaluate docs and sources.
Maybe licensed parts can be removed without removing all necessary
infos to build a kernel for Indigos. This would be equal to what
IBM does to their JFS (with one difference: Indigos are equal to 
a mid-class 486, JFS is even today a first-class fs). This unfortunately
requires menwork and so it is costly;( I also think that is isn't
really cheap to port XFS, as well. But porting XFS is a step forward, 
making Indigos is kind of nostalgic...

MfG, JBG

-- 
Fehler eingestehen, Größe zeigen: Nehmt die Rechtschreibreform zurück!!!
/* Jan-Benedict Glaw <jbglaw@lug-owl.de> -- +49-177-5601720 */
keyID=0x8399E1BB fingerprint=250D 3BCF 7127 0D8C A444 A961 1DBD 5E75 8399 E1BB
	...und aus aktuellem Anlaß:	ILOVEYOU, Linux!

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 240 bytes --]

Re: Indy Documentation

[Alan Cox]

> found anything, and it took me almost 9 hours of hard work.  The biggest
> problem I had was that I ran into the open file limit in Linux so I could only
> search 250 machines at the same time.  Why is it so?

Because you are running an older 2.2 release or didnt RTFM ;)

Re: Indy Documentation

[Alan Cox]

> found anything, and it took me almost 9 hours of hard work.  The biggest
> problem I had was that I ran into the open file limit in Linux so I could only
> search 250 machines at the same time.  Why is it so?

Because you are running an older 2.2 release or didnt RTFM ;)

Re: Indy Documentation

[Ulf Carlsson]

Hi,

I was talking to my manager and she agreed to make the documentation for the
Indy public.  The location is:

	oss.sgi.com /pub/linux/mips/doc/indy

I think everything is there except for the HAL2 specification that I wasn't
able to find and some PBUS documentation that I wasn't able to convert.  I
will give that one another try..

Ulf

Re: Indy Documentation

[Guido Guenther]

With these docs it will be fun to make use of xaa in the xserver(but
it's still a long pat(c)h  up to this point...
 -- Guido

On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 11:22:24AM -0700, Ulf Carlsson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was talking to my manager and she agreed to make the documentation for the
> Indy public.  The location is:
> 
> 	oss.sgi.com /pub/linux/mips/doc/indy
> 
> I think everything is there except for the HAL2 specification that I wasn't
> able to find and some PBUS documentation that I wasn't able to convert.  I
> will give that one another try..
> 
> Ulf
> 

-- 
GPG-Public Key: http://honk.physik.uni-konstanz.de/~agx/guenther.gpg.asc

Re: Indy Documentation

[Kevin D. Kissell]

-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Lohoff <flo@rfc822.org>
To: Ralf Baechle <ralf@oss.sgi.com>
Cc: Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org>; Ulf Carlsson
<ulfc@calypso.engr.sgi.com>; linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com
<linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com>; linux-mips@fnet.fr <linux-mips@fnet.fr>;
linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu <linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu>
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Indy Documentation

....
>> Also I found that there is still a huge pile of Exabyte tapes that have the
>> final full backup from the day when MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.  was
>> shutdown by SGI after MIPS got bought in the early 90's.  That means that
>> provided the legal problems involved with publication of such documentation
>> get solved we now have everything that is required to support every machine
>> ever made by MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
>
>How will these legal issues be brought on the track ? I think both
>companies (SGI + Mips) should have an interest to free up these documents
>or at least hand out to some people who sign some kind of NDA.
>
>Flo


While MIPS Technologies Inc owns the microprocessor IP of the
old MIPS Computer Systems, as well as much that was developed
while MIPS was part of SGI, it is less than obvious what rights or
responsibilites the new MIPS Technologies has with respect to the
computer systems part of the pre-SGI MIPS business.  It is quite
possible that all that stuff stayed with SGI when MIPS Technologies
spun out.  I will forward the message to our legal people and see
what they have to say.
__

Kevin D. Kissell
MIPS Technologies European Architecture Lab
kevink@mips.com
Tel. +33.4.78.38.70.67
FAX. +33.4.78.38.70.68

Re: Indy Documentation

[Kevin D. Kissell]

-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Lohoff <flo@rfc822.org>
To: Ralf Baechle <ralf@oss.sgi.com>
Cc: Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org>; Ulf Carlsson
<ulfc@calypso.engr.sgi.com>; linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com
<linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com>; linux-mips@fnet.fr <linux-mips@fnet.fr>;
linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu <linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu>
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Indy Documentation

....
>> Also I found that there is still a huge pile of Exabyte tapes that have the
>> final full backup from the day when MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.  was
>> shutdown by SGI after MIPS got bought in the early 90's.  That means that
>> provided the legal problems involved with publication of such documentation
>> get solved we now have everything that is required to support every machine
>> ever made by MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
>
>How will these legal issues be brought on the track ? I think both
>companies (SGI + Mips) should have an interest to free up these documents
>or at least hand out to some people who sign some kind of NDA.
>
>Flo


While MIPS Technologies Inc owns the microprocessor IP of the
old MIPS Computer Systems, as well as much that was developed
while MIPS was part of SGI, it is less than obvious what rights or
responsibilites the new MIPS Technologies has with respect to the
computer systems part of the pre-SGI MIPS business.  It is quite
possible that all that stuff stayed with SGI when MIPS Technologies
spun out.  I will forward the message to our legal people and see
what they have to say.
__

Kevin D. Kissell
MIPS Technologies European Architecture Lab
kevink@mips.com
Tel. +33.4.78.38.70.67
FAX. +33.4.78.38.70.68