Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[Kevin D. Kissell]

The Sony PS2 Linux kit has been shipping for nearly
a month now, and I'm frankly astonished at how little
I've seen on this mailing list about it.  For better or
for worse, this changes everything for MIPS/Linux.
The number of MIPS/Linux users worldwide has
just gone up by at least an order of magnitude,
and they are on a platform running a 2.2.1-derived
kernel and using gcc 2.95.2.

It's a perfectly usable platform out of the box, but
Carsten has thrown "crashme" at it, and it goes down
relatively quickly.  People trying to port kaffe and
other programs that do double-precision float are
blocked because there's no double precision on the
R5900, and the Sony kernel lacks the Algorithmics
emulator.

It's not clear what Sony is going to put into further
development, and what they are going to expect the
user community to take over from here.  There is a 
group of people trying to take the kernel up to
2.2.20, but I'm not yet sure whether they know
what they are doing, and anyway, that box needs
to get to 2.4.x ASAP.

I respectfully submit that, within a year, any 
MIPS/Linux  source tree that does not support 
the PS2 will be considered obsolete.  And that
quite specifically includes the one at oss.sgi.com.
I personally would want to approach this in terms 
of merging the necessary PS2 code into something
that could be expressed as a patch over kernel.org's
2.4.19_or_better, and which would be provded 
as the default MIPS kernel technology by MIPS 
and SGI servers, and ultimately by kernel.org.

Is no one else here working on this?

            Regards,

            Kevin K.

Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[Kevin D. Kissell]

The Sony PS2 Linux kit has been shipping for nearly
a month now, and I'm frankly astonished at how little
I've seen on this mailing list about it.  For better or
for worse, this changes everything for MIPS/Linux.
The number of MIPS/Linux users worldwide has
just gone up by at least an order of magnitude,
and they are on a platform running a 2.2.1-derived
kernel and using gcc 2.95.2.

It's a perfectly usable platform out of the box, but
Carsten has thrown "crashme" at it, and it goes down
relatively quickly.  People trying to port kaffe and
other programs that do double-precision float are
blocked because there's no double precision on the
R5900, and the Sony kernel lacks the Algorithmics
emulator.

It's not clear what Sony is going to put into further
development, and what they are going to expect the
user community to take over from here.  There is a 
group of people trying to take the kernel up to
2.2.20, but I'm not yet sure whether they know
what they are doing, and anyway, that box needs
to get to 2.4.x ASAP.

I respectfully submit that, within a year, any 
MIPS/Linux  source tree that does not support 
the PS2 will be considered obsolete.  And that
quite specifically includes the one at oss.sgi.com.
I personally would want to approach this in terms 
of merging the necessary PS2 code into something
that could be expressed as a patch over kernel.org's
2.4.19_or_better, and which would be provded 
as the default MIPS kernel technology by MIPS 
and SGI servers, and ultimately by kernel.org.

Is no one else here working on this?

            Regards,

            Kevin K.

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[H . J . Lu]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 03:59:57PM +0200, Kevin D. Kissell wrote:
> The Sony PS2 Linux kit has been shipping for nearly
> a month now, and I'm frankly astonished at how little
> I've seen on this mailing list about it.  For better or
> for worse, this changes everything for MIPS/Linux.
> The number of MIPS/Linux users worldwide has
> just gone up by at least an order of magnitude,
> and they are on a platform running a 2.2.1-derived
> kernel and using gcc 2.95.2.
> 
> It's a perfectly usable platform out of the box, but
> Carsten has thrown "crashme" at it, and it goes down
> relatively quickly.  People trying to port kaffe and
> other programs that do double-precision float are
> blocked because there's no double precision on the
> R5900, and the Sony kernel lacks the Algorithmics
> emulator.
> 

I looked at PS2 when I was looking for a mips platform for my
Linux/mips work. Unfortunately, PS2 doesn't have ll/sc, which
makes many things complicated.


H.J.

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[David Christensen]

Kevin:

Kevin D. Kissell <kevink@mips.com> wrote on linux-mips@oss.sgi.com:
> The Sony PS2 Linux kit has been shipping for nearly...

If the PS2 is an open source platform, I would like to know that.
However, I do not see Sony on the OSI approved license list:

    http://www.opensource.org/licenses/index.php


So, let me get out my soap box...

When people say "Open Source", the first thing that comes to mind is
software.  But, this is only one half of the equation.  The hardware
must also be "open", or the concept doesn't work.  First, because
attempting to write systems software without complete and accurate
hardware documentation is an exercise in reverse engineering.  The
community can better spend its time on documented hardware.  Second, and
more importantly, because any intellectual property (IP) encumbrance
will make the results pointless in the marketplace.


Closed hardware breaks the community development model.  Vendors who
provide a Linux distribution but keep their hardware proprietary cannot
honestly claim "Open Source".  Vendors who fully disclose and freely
license both their hardware and software have embraced "Open Source".
As consumers, we vote with our dollars. As engineers, we further one
cause or the other by our education, employment, and personal project
choices.


David Christensen
dpchrist@holgerdanske.com

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[David Christensen]

Kevin:

Kevin D. Kissell <kevink@mips.com> wrote on linux-mips@oss.sgi.com:
> The Sony PS2 Linux kit has been shipping for nearly...

If the PS2 is an open source platform, I would like to know that.
However, I do not see Sony on the OSI approved license list:

    http://www.opensource.org/licenses/index.php


So, let me get out my soap box...

When people say "Open Source", the first thing that comes to mind is
software.  But, this is only one half of the equation.  The hardware
must also be "open", or the concept doesn't work.  First, because
attempting to write systems software without complete and accurate
hardware documentation is an exercise in reverse engineering.  The
community can better spend its time on documented hardware.  Second, and
more importantly, because any intellectual property (IP) encumbrance
will make the results pointless in the marketplace.


Closed hardware breaks the community development model.  Vendors who
provide a Linux distribution but keep their hardware proprietary cannot
honestly claim "Open Source".  Vendors who fully disclose and freely
license both their hardware and software have embraced "Open Source".
As consumers, we vote with our dollars. As engineers, we further one
cause or the other by our education, employment, and personal project
choices.


David Christensen
dpchrist@holgerdanske.com

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[Carsten Langgaard]

The DVDs you get with the linux kit, contain all necessary hardware
documentation.

/Carsten


David Christensen wrote:

> Kevin:
>
> Kevin D. Kissell <kevink@mips.com> wrote on linux-mips@oss.sgi.com:
> > The Sony PS2 Linux kit has been shipping for nearly...
>
> If the PS2 is an open source platform, I would like to know that.
> However, I do not see Sony on the OSI approved license list:
>
>     http://www.opensource.org/licenses/index.php
>
> So, let me get out my soap box...
>
> When people say "Open Source", the first thing that comes to mind is
> software.  But, this is only one half of the equation.  The hardware
> must also be "open", or the concept doesn't work.  First, because
> attempting to write systems software without complete and accurate
> hardware documentation is an exercise in reverse engineering.  The
> community can better spend its time on documented hardware.  Second, and
> more importantly, because any intellectual property (IP) encumbrance
> will make the results pointless in the marketplace.
>
> Closed hardware breaks the community development model.  Vendors who
> provide a Linux distribution but keep their hardware proprietary cannot
> honestly claim "Open Source".  Vendors who fully disclose and freely
> license both their hardware and software have embraced "Open Source".
> As consumers, we vote with our dollars. As engineers, we further one
> cause or the other by our education, employment, and personal project
> choices.
>
> David Christensen
> dpchrist@holgerdanske.com

--
_    _ ____  ___   Carsten Langgaard   Mailto:carstenl@mips.com
|\  /|||___)(___   MIPS Denmark        Direct: +45 4486 5527
| \/ |||    ____)  Lautrupvang 4B      Switch: +45 4486 5555
  TECHNOLOGIES     2750 Ballerup       Fax...: +45 4486 5556
                   Denmark             http://www.mips.com

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[David Christensen]

Everyone:

"Carsten Langgaard" <carstenl@mips.com> wrote on linux-mips@oss.sgi.com:
> The DVDs you get with the linux kit, contain all necessary hardware
> documentation.

OK  I assume the license is also on the DVD's.

1.  Are the documents and license available online?  If so, what is/are
    the URL(s)?

2.  Has Sony submitted their license to OSI for approval?


David Christensen
dpchrist@holgerdanske.com

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[David Christensen]

Everyone:

"Carsten Langgaard" <carstenl@mips.com> wrote on linux-mips@oss.sgi.com:
> The DVDs you get with the linux kit, contain all necessary hardware
> documentation.

OK  I assume the license is also on the DVD's.

1.  Are the documents and license available online?  If so, what is/are
    the URL(s)?

2.  Has Sony submitted their license to OSI for approval?


David Christensen
dpchrist@holgerdanske.com

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[David Christensen]

Luke:

"OSI" is the Open Source Initiative:

    http://www.opensource.org/


David



----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke A. Guest" <laguest@nebulas.demon.co.uk>
To: "David Christensen" <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2


On Wednesday 19 Jun 2002 7:18 pm, you wrote:
> Everyone:
>
> "Carsten Langgaard" <carstenl@mips.com> wrote on
> linux-mips@oss.sgi.com:
> > The DVDs you get with the linux kit, contain all necessary hardware
> > documentation.

Not all, but most of them. Basically you get the black/blue books in PDF
form.

> OK  I assume the license is also on the DVD's.
>
> 1.  Are the documents and license available online?  If so, what
>     is/are the URL(s)?

Not unless you're a PS2 developer.

> 2.  Has Sony submitted their license to OSI for approval?

OSI?

Luke.

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[David Christensen]

Luke:

"OSI" is the Open Source Initiative:

    http://www.opensource.org/


David



----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke A. Guest" <laguest@nebulas.demon.co.uk>
To: "David Christensen" <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2


On Wednesday 19 Jun 2002 7:18 pm, you wrote:
> Everyone:
>
> "Carsten Langgaard" <carstenl@mips.com> wrote on
> linux-mips@oss.sgi.com:
> > The DVDs you get with the linux kit, contain all necessary hardware
> > documentation.

Not all, but most of them. Basically you get the black/blue books in PDF
form.

> OK  I assume the license is also on the DVD's.
>
> 1.  Are the documents and license available online?  If so, what
>     is/are the URL(s)?

Not unless you're a PS2 developer.

> 2.  Has Sony submitted their license to OSI for approval?

OSI?

Luke.

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[David Christensen]

linux-mips@oss.sgi.com:

"Dave J Woolley" <david.woolley@bts.co.uk> wrote to "David Christensen"
<dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>:
> You are off topic on license discuss - it has a rather narrow charter
> of discussing proposed Open Source licence documents.

OK


> There are two levels of open-ness in hardware.  I'm not sure that
> there is any electronic computing hardware that is completely open to
> the level that open source software is++, but there is basically
> hardware for which the design documentation is published and there is
> hardware for which a programming model is published.  Open source
> drivers require the latter,

Open source development may require both.  for example, let's say I want
to buy a PS2, open it up, add some goodies, and then sell, release under
GPL, gift to the public domain, etc., my derivative work.


> or reverse engineering - which may be illegal (even in Europe as I
> think publishing the driver source code exceeds the limited
> permissions given to reverse engineer without the vendors permission -
> black box reverse engineering is OK, I believe, but not anything that
> looks at mechanism rather than behaviour##).
>
> I'm not sure if you meant open programming models (which in software
> terms mean open interface specifications) or open design information.
>
> ++ I doubt that the photo-lithography masks for even simple
> transistors re published.

I want open programming models and open design information down to the
schematic, board layout, and parts list level.  The insides of
integrated circuits can remain secret so long as their operation and
interfaces are completely documented and there are no IP entanglements
when I want to design, publish, build, sell, give away, etc., circuits,
software, and products which use them.


> ## My understanding is that the EEC law requires refusal of the
> supplier to provide the information on reasonable (not necessarily
> cost free) terms; the information not to be used to create a competing
> product; the information only being sufficient to interface; the
> information not to be published to third parties.  IANAL.

Interesting.


David Christensen
dpchrist@holgerdanske.com

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[David Christensen]

linux-mips@oss.sgi.com:

"Dave J Woolley" <david.woolley@bts.co.uk> wrote to "David Christensen"
<dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>:
> You are off topic on license discuss - it has a rather narrow charter
> of discussing proposed Open Source licence documents.

OK


> There are two levels of open-ness in hardware.  I'm not sure that
> there is any electronic computing hardware that is completely open to
> the level that open source software is++, but there is basically
> hardware for which the design documentation is published and there is
> hardware for which a programming model is published.  Open source
> drivers require the latter,

Open source development may require both.  for example, let's say I want
to buy a PS2, open it up, add some goodies, and then sell, release under
GPL, gift to the public domain, etc., my derivative work.


> or reverse engineering - which may be illegal (even in Europe as I
> think publishing the driver source code exceeds the limited
> permissions given to reverse engineer without the vendors permission -
> black box reverse engineering is OK, I believe, but not anything that
> looks at mechanism rather than behaviour##).
>
> I'm not sure if you meant open programming models (which in software
> terms mean open interface specifications) or open design information.
>
> ++ I doubt that the photo-lithography masks for even simple
> transistors re published.

I want open programming models and open design information down to the
schematic, board layout, and parts list level.  The insides of
integrated circuits can remain secret so long as their operation and
interfaces are completely documented and there are no IP entanglements
when I want to design, publish, build, sell, give away, etc., circuits,
software, and products which use them.


> ## My understanding is that the EEC law requires refusal of the
> supplier to provide the information on reasonable (not necessarily
> cost free) terms; the information not to be used to create a competing
> product; the information only being sufficient to interface; the
> information not to be published to third parties.  IANAL.

Interesting.


David Christensen
dpchrist@holgerdanske.com

RE: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[Smith, Todd]

Hello Kevin,

This list is been pretty quiet lately so I don't really know what is
happening on the Linux/MIPS front.  I am hoping that work is still slowly
proceeding on the DECstation that I have, but I don't really know.  I agree
with you that PS2 offer enormous power to the developer and as a cheap
source of computing power to other countries.

I don't know a great deal about it, but I am least willing to discuss it if
it will create some additional interest.

Todd Smith <todd.smith@camc.org>



-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin D. Kissell [mailto:kevink@mips.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 10:00 AM
To: linux-mips@fnet.fr; linux-mips@oss.sgi.com
Subject: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2


The Sony PS2 Linux kit has been shipping for nearly
a month now, and I'm frankly astonished at how little
I've seen on this mailing list about it.  For better or
for worse, this changes everything for MIPS/Linux.
The number of MIPS/Linux users worldwide has
just gone up by at least an order of magnitude,
and they are on a platform running a 2.2.1-derived
kernel and using gcc 2.95.2.

It's a perfectly usable platform out of the box, but
Carsten has thrown "crashme" at it, and it goes down
relatively quickly.  People trying to port kaffe and
other programs that do double-precision float are
blocked because there's no double precision on the
R5900, and the Sony kernel lacks the Algorithmics
emulator.

It's not clear what Sony is going to put into further
development, and what they are going to expect the
user community to take over from here.  There is a 
group of people trying to take the kernel up to
2.2.20, but I'm not yet sure whether they know
what they are doing, and anyway, that box needs
to get to 2.4.x ASAP.

I respectfully submit that, within a year, any 
MIPS/Linux  source tree that does not support 
the PS2 will be considered obsolete.  And that
quite specifically includes the one at oss.sgi.com.
I personally would want to approach this in terms 
of merging the necessary PS2 code into something
that could be expressed as a patch over kernel.org's
2.4.19_or_better, and which would be provded 
as the default MIPS kernel technology by MIPS 
and SGI servers, and ultimately by kernel.org.

Is no one else here working on this?

            Regards,

            Kevin K.

RE: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[Maciej W. Rozycki]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Smith, Todd wrote:

> This list is been pretty quiet lately so I don't really know what is
> happening on the Linux/MIPS front.  I am hoping that work is still slowly
> proceeding on the DECstation that I have, but I don't really know.  I agree
> with you that PS2 offer enormous power to the developer and as a cheap
> source of computing power to other countries.

 I'm doing some development on the DECstation -- changes get applied to
the CVS as they are ready (e.g. I fixed a few bugs in declance yesterday). 
The last large change was the IRQ handling rewrite (small parts of which
are still pending awaiting approval of generic bits they depend on).  I'm
planning another big change soon.

 If you have any problems, just report them here. 

-- 
+  Maciej W. Rozycki, Technical University of Gdansk, Poland   +
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
+        e-mail: macro@ds2.pg.gda.pl, PGP key available        +

Re: Linux and the Sony Playstation 2

[Karsten Merker]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 04:10:52PM -0400, Smith, Todd wrote:

> This list is been pretty quiet lately so I don't really know what is
> happening on the Linux/MIPS front.  I am hoping that work is still slowly
> proceeding on the DECstation that I have, but I don't really know.  I agree

Which model Du you have? I am actively using Linux/MIPS on a DECstation
5000/150 (although not with a bleeding-edge kernel), and it works rather
well for me.

Regards,
Karsten
-- 
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oder Uebermittlung meiner Daten fuer Werbezwecke oder fuer die Markt- oder
Meinungsforschung.