[parisc-linux] website

[parisc-linux] website

[Matthew Wilcox]

As I've mentioned before, I'm not happy with several aspects of the
proposed replacement website.

 * I believe there is too much boilerplate HTML which will quickly get out
   of sync between the different files.
 * The proposed site doesn't have the useful `last updated' feature.
 * The text is too small.
 * It uses too many tables.
 * The <title></title> gives no useful information (also a problem with the
   current site.)
 * Too many directories containing only one file.
 * It now requires perl to build.

Instead of just whining about it, I've taken the design of the proposed
site and merged it into our current site.  I don't propose to put
the results back into CVS yet, so I've made a tarball available from
ftp://puffin.external.hp.com/pub/parisc/newsite.tar.bz2.  It merges most
of the proposed site into te current site, fixing the following things:

 * Removes all boilerplate HTML and places it in common files.
 * Reintroduces the `last updated' text.
 * Puts useful information in the title
 * Eliminates useless directories
 * Builds using sh, grep, sed, date, pwd, head, tr.

There are a lot of things I like about the proposed site, that's why
I'm bothering to try to fix the things I don't like.  I haven't tried to
fix the tables and font sizes because these are aesthetic design issues,
not technical issues.

This tarball doesn't contain everything I like from the proposed site; it
represents a merge of the more important bits into the current site.  Other
bits should be brought across, but I want to get some feedback on whether
this design works before i put more than a couple of hours work into it.

-- 
Revolutions do not require corporate support.

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Jane Vinet]

Hi Willy,

Sorry, I thought I had sent this early last week, however, I had it in
my drafts folder, I was not being unresponsive.

Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> 
> As I've mentioned before, I'm not happy with several aspects of the
> proposed replacement website.
> 
>  * I believe there is too much boilerplate HTML which will quickly get out
>    of sync between the different files.

Discussions between Linuxcare and Hewlett Packard have come to the
conclusion that HP are satisfied with the site and we are going to post
it the way it is now.  Please note that it will not stay static.  We
believe the site will evolve over time and some of the issues you have
brought up may be addressed in future developments.  As to your other
comments, please see below.

>  * The proposed site doesn't have the useful `last updated' feature.

You are right, the previous "last updated" showed the last chron job -
we will modify to show last time it was checked out of CVS.

>  * The text is too small.
>  * It uses too many tables.

I feel these are personal preferences - however, I will see what can be
done about the font

>  * The <title></title> gives no useful information (also a problem with the
>    current site.)

Absolutely correct, will address it with the web team
>  * Too many directories containing only one file.

The site was designed with the idea of growth in mind, in fact we looked
at the site map extensively before asking for an overhaul and we feel
that it is no more complicated than in the past and looks to the future
as well.

>  * It now requires perl to build.

The system uses perl as a preprocessor - we do not believe that there
are going to be any issues with this.

Jane

-- 
Jane Vinet, Director Professional Services/Canadian Operations
Linuxcare, Inc. 613.562.9260 (tel), 613.562.9700 fax
jvinet@linuxcare.com, http://www.linuxcare.com/
Linuxcare, Support for the Revolution

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Stan Sieler]

Re:

> >  * The text is too small.
> >  * It uses too many tables.
> 
> I feel these are personal preferences - however, I will see what can be
> done about the font

The key, probably the most important thing in web page design, is to
*NOT* override the user's font defaults.  Web pages with font sizes, colors, &
styles are simply evil.  There are pages I can no longer read with Netscape,
because the @#$%^ web designer went out of their way to choose a small
font...and that's *real* small on a 1600x1200 display!  MSIE let's me 
go to Tools/Internet Options/Accessibility and say:

   ignore font colors on page
   ignore font size on page

...which is simply wonderful.

www.hp.com is an excellent example of how *NOT* to design a web page, sadly.

Remember, the three most important things to consider when
designing a web page are: content, content, and content.
Look / feel / wow isn't in the top three!
 
-- 
Stan Sieler                                           sieler@allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html                  www.sieler.com        

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 11:33:28AM -0800, Stan Sieler wrote:
> The key, probably the most important thing in web page design, is to
> *NOT* override the user's font defaults.  Web pages with font sizes, colors, &
> styles are simply evil.  There are pages I can no longer read with Netscape,
> because the @#$%^ web designer went out of their way to choose a small
> font...and that's *real* small on a 1600x1200 display!  MSIE let's me 
> go to Tools/Internet Options/Accessibility and say:
> 
>    ignore font colors on page
>    ignore font size on page
> 
> ...which is simply wonderful.

Netscape has a simlar thing; however it ignore this preference when
rendering tables.  I went and checked out the mozilla classic codebase
once and saw exactly how to fix it, but they'd already forked mozilla
seamonkey at that point, so i didn't bother.

> Remember, the three most important things to consider when
> designing a web page are: content, content, and content.
> Look / feel / wow isn't in the top three!

i couldn't agree more.

-- 
Revolutions do not require corporate support.

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 10:20:16AM -0500, Jane Vinet wrote:
> Discussions between Linuxcare and Hewlett Packard have come to the
> conclusion that HP are satisfied with the site and we are going to post
> it the way it is now.

I see.  In that case, I shall not be contributing further to the website
in any way.  I believe it is technically incompetent and deeply flawed.
You gave the impression that problems would be fixed, but clearly this
is not the case.  I will not be fixing typos or incorrect information;
I will not be updating the todo list or contributing faq entries.

> >  * The text is too small.
> >  * It uses too many tables.
> 
> I feel these are personal preferences - however, I will see what can be
> done about the font

no they aren't.  see the other post i made in this thread showing how
the tables can be easily eliminated which will lead to less memory usage
and faster rendering time.  the font is not quite as unreadably small as
some sites, but it's unnecessarily small.

-- 
Revolutions do not require corporate support.

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Josiah Carlson]

> > Remember, the three most important things to consider when
> > designing a web page are: content, content, and content.
> > Look / feel / wow isn't in the top three!
> 
> i couldn't agree more.

So you've got a problem with the content?

I don't understand what the problem is.  The page works.
So it's generated by a script that adds in a bunch of extra stuff...so
what?  The font sizes and such are not changed (except in the
toolbar)...should be able to be viewed on netscape (and at least in the
later mozilla's and NS6, you can override the defaults). Sounds like
alot of complaining for nothing.

As well, if you're not happy with the content on the web page, write a
page up and post it for the good of the rest of us.

---
Josiah Carlson
jcarlson@macalester.edu

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 05:00:43PM -0600, Josiah Carlson wrote:
> I don't understand what the problem is.  The page works.

haven't you been reading my posts where i describe the problems with
the build system which are going to lead to the pages getting out
of sync?  Heck, they have _already_ gt out of sync.

> So it's generated by a script that adds in a bunch of extra stuff...so
> what?  The font sizes and such are not changed

yes they are.  go and look again.

> As well, if you're not happy with the content on the web page, write a
> page up and post it for the good of the rest of us.

er.  i have.  really, have you not been paying attention?

-- 
Revolutions do not require corporate support.

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Stan Sieler]

Josiah (what's wrong with painting my car myself, with house paint) Carlson 
says:

> what?  The font sizes and such are not changed (except in the
> toolbar)...should be able to be viewed on netscape (and at least in the

Oh?  Try www.sieler.com, then www.linuxcare.com.  The linuxcare page
specifies font size everywhere...not just the toolbar.

Matthew did linuxcare a favor ... for all that they might not care ...
by pointing out that the page has a number of problems.  Font size
*is* one of those problems.  On my 21" monitor, at 1600x1200, I find
their font just a bit too small to read.  (Better than some brain-dead
pages, like www.altavista.com!)

> later mozilla's and NS6, you can override the defaults). Sounds like
> alot of complaining for nothing.

Josiah...if people don't point out the problems, how will they *ever*
find out about them? 

Hmmm...The gentleman protests too much, methinks.
[modified Hamlet, see http://www.allshakespeare.com/plays/hamlet/3-2.shtml#protest]

BTW, you *DO* want to point out to your *own* site's webmaster that
he/she is making the same bad mistake :)

www.macalester.edu:

    ...
    <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=-1>

    Macalester College is a private undergraduate liberal arts college which
    emphasizes academic excellence in the context of internationalism,
    ...

Note that evil "size=-1"!  (and a few "size=-2" as well)

BTW, that home page is better than many...
CSEE HTML Validator version 4.5 only found four errors on it.  
See: http://www.htmlvalidator.com/

-- 
Stan Sieler                                           sieler@allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html                  www.sieler.com        

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Josiah Carlson]

Matthew Wilxox,

I've been trying to look at the issues you've brought up, and figure out
some way that someone can fix them.  Here are the problems that I've
been able to come up with from the emails:

1. Font sizes and the resulting readibility on hi res screens,
particlarly on netscape browsers.
2. Problem with the memory usage of the tables, and the rendering speed,
particularly on netscape browsers.
3. Build system as it relates to the the way the pages are
updated...causing them to get out of sync.
4. The fact that parisc-linux.org is overseen by the HP corporation, and
that they are unwilling to change the layout and such of the web page.

Problems 1 and 2 both seem to stem from the way the Netscape browser
handles pages.  Yes, the over-use of tables is not necessary and causes
loading issues for people on saturated connections who also happen to be
using netscape 4.x.  And I also hate the over-use of tables (I once
viewed a web page that had 4 images and maybe a paragraph or so of
actual text, but was filled with 25k of table formatting crap that could
have been removed with a <center> tag and a few line breaks).  But they
aren't embedding hundreds of tables within themselves, I looked at the
html in your email.  I agree, the three tables didn't need to be used,
but then again, the designers of the pages probably aren't using a text
editor to set up a web page, I wouldn't doubt if they are using some
sort of gui editor...which in my experience with them, produces too much
unneeded bullshit.
I'm guessing with the amount of stuff they've got to set up, they lack
the time to hand code everything...that is much of the same reason why
so many pages have so many tables.  Not everyone has the time to hand
code every page, but then again, if some section of code is going to go
into every web page, it should be tight.  Though we've got to remember
that we're dealing with a corporation, with a structure, with
supervisors.  If there's one thing that I've learned from working at any
workplace, it's that supervisors sometimes know less than a 2 year old
and sometimes are twice as stubborn.  If they're using some sort of
commercial web development tool, I would doubt if the supervisor cares
who did what, "If it wasn't produced by the package, it's not going in."
(quote from a supervisor I had, and this also being the response to
problem 4).
What really needs to happen to fix these pages, is not for you to leave
because you're unhappy with the future pages, but for the person(s) who
is(are) actually developing the pages to be able to be contacted, and
take constructive feedback, and actually be able to do something about
it (where's webmaster@parisc-linux.org?).

We can fix the font sizes and such though.  In the netscape preferences
(on 4.x, 6, and mozilla) have options for font size and style overrides
(Edit->Preferences->Appearance->Fonts). This is a personal thing, a
seriously personal thing, but easily fixed on all current browsers (IE
4.0+, NS4.5+, 6 and mozilla (don't know the original milestone this
started working on, but I've got 11, 13 and 17 if anyone wants to look).

Memory usage because of tables...I really can't help that, and unless
someone breaks into the mozilla source code and tightens it up a tad...I
don't think it's ever going to be efficient (though I can't notice a
difference in IE...but then again, IE never had the problems with tables
that NS 4.x had), though at least mozilla/6 renders as it receives
information, quite a step up from the 4.x releases.

Build system and page updates...ouch.  Yeah, that's a problem, though I
don't have a solution. *frown*

In response to your previous email:
No, I haven't read them, I must've missed them.  But yes, it is a
problem...but I was attempting to refer to the parts that non-developers
see, the faq, the start page, etc.  Though I can't change the build
system, not only am I not privy to the code, but I doubt that HP would
accept any changes if I had any. (more on that later)

The content comment...I actually went surfing around the page and
noticed your name here and there...funny, I never paid it attention
before.  My comment was to address everyone.  Let us say for example
that...I've got a C110 (which I happen to), and I've been having
problems getting it working (which I have, but the current comments on
the C100 are helping).  Currently there is not a whole lot of info on
getting said machines running on the main site.  If I ever get my C110
running (like the 712's and B160L's), I have to document the steps
required because someone in the future may have to do it again where I'm
at, and it could also be posted to the parisc-linux.org site for other
people. Using that as an example, anyone who'se had problems getting
things set up should document and get the solutions posted to the site
under the information for that particular machine.  Thank you for
posting, anything that people can add to help is all that much better
for the new guy (which I still am).

(in response to Stan Stieler) And about "my site's webmaster"...well,
that's not my site. It's my school's site, for I am merely an undergrad.
I do know that they use Dreamweaver to write the pages, which gives a
reason for the use of CSS, and over-use of tables on every page that is
school written. But that's their thing, and it's also a corporation of
sorts.  I know the guys who are doing work study making the pages...and
they would all prefer to do everything with a few scripts and some
hand-coded html...but the supervisors only know dreamweaver...so that's
all they get.  I looked at stieler.com and have been to hp.com quite
often, and while I agree that content should be the absolute desire,
content with a poor way of accessing said content is nearly as bad as
not having any.  Hp's site has alot of useful information...but I've
spent hours looking for what I need (same with intel's site).  Your site
doesn't have any ambiguity, but it also does not have the insane amounts
of information that the HP site has, nor is it nearly as visually
interesting0.
I'm going to use slashdot.org as an example here.  It has plenty of
information, fairly un-ambiguous interface, kind of visually interesting,
but also happens to have many tables.  Tables aren't necessarily bad
when used properly (not to say that slashdot.org uses them properly, but
they are used for the desired formatting, and not much else would
accomplish what they have).
The trick is to remember to seperate the different levels of web design
in a corporate style environment:
Content (what's there)
Interface (how do they get to it)
Back end (how it's stored/generated)
As a geek news source, slashdot.org has got them all down pretty well,
leaving only a little to be desired in the way of the amount of html
they use (and a bit of FUD on occasion).
hp.com lacks interface, but has excellent content and one hell of a back
end to be able to handle all that info.

So yeah, that's my take,
 - Josiah

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Grant Grundler]

Josiah Carlson wrote:
...
> 4. The fact that parisc-linux.org is overseen by the HP corporation, and
> that they are unwilling to change the layout and such of the web page.

Wrong on two counts: HP does not run the web site. AFAIK, HP helped
fund the parisc-linux site developement and approved it's current
layout/use of HP logo. No one said anything about future developement.
This issue is still under discussion and Mathew's input has been heard.

> Though we've got to remember
> that we're dealing with a corporation, with a structure, with
> supervisors.

Who are just people.
Some need to learn new things they don't yet know.

> If there's one thing that I've learned from working at any
> workplace, it's that supervisors sometimes know less than a 2 year old
> and sometimes are twice as stubborn.

Funny. None of my supervisors have ever fit that description.
Maybe I'm just lucky.

> not only am I not privy to the code,

Wrong again.
Source is visible at http://puffin.external.hp.com/cgi-bin/cvsview
or through CVS. Just like the linux kernel.

> but I doubt that HP would
> accept any changes if I had any. (more on that later)

You are right - HP won't. Mostly because HP doesn't "own" it.
Anyone with write access to the CVS repository can change it.
Only about 1/5th of the people with such write access are HP
employees.

> Currently there is not a whole lot of info on
> getting said machines running on the main site.

1) It's because owners of said machines haven't *written* a web page
   (or FAQ) specific to each platform.
2) Such a page would fairly quickly be stale.
   The long term goal is to have one process/kernel for all machines.
   (64- vs 32-bit kernels is the only issue that won't go away.)

> I have to document the steps
> required because someone in the future may have to do it again where I'm
> at, and it could also be posted to the parisc-linux.org site for other
> people.

Exactly. Post it here and people can find it by searching the
mail archive. (That's probably another FAQ, Alex?).

grant

Grant Grundler
Unix Systems Enablement Lab
+1.408.447.7253

Re: [parisc-linux] website

[Josiah Carlson]

> Wrong on two counts: HP does not run the web site. AFAIK, HP helped
> fund the parisc-linux site developement and approved it's current
> layout/use of HP logo. No one said anything about future developement.
> This issue is still under discussion and Mathew's input has been heard.

I did not know that. Thank you for putting me straight.

> Who are just people.
> Some need to learn new things they don't yet know.
> Funny. None of my supervisors have ever fit that description.
> Maybe I'm just lucky.

*nod* They need to learn, but some aren't willing.  I don't know the
structure at HP, but most any job I've been at...yeah, had a couple good
ones, but those are rare, and you are quite lucky.  Though with the
newfound knowledge that it's not overseen by a large corporation, let us
get with the page alterations already *wink*.

> Wrong again.
> Source is visible at http://puffin.external.hp.com/cgi-bin/cvsview
> or through CVS. Just like the linux kernel.
> You are right - HP won't. Mostly because HP doesn't "own" it.
> Anyone with write access to the CVS repository can change it.
> Only about 1/5th of the people with such write access are HP
> employees.

I must have missed that link as well.  I did not know that just about
everything (web page included) were easily modifyable...but if it's so
easy, why haven't the changes been made?  Why is Matthew so pissed off? 
(I admit that I flamed in response, and I'm sorry...at the time I was
pissed because I didn't have lab access to my hp machines because of the
holiday.  Since then I've had my nap and dinner.)

> 1) It's because owners of said machines haven't *written* a web page
>    (or FAQ) specific to each platform.
> 2) Such a page would fairly quickly be stale.
>    The long term goal is to have one process/kernel for all machines.
>    (64- vs 32-bit kernels is the only issue that won't go away.)

MMM.  Good point, until that happens however...I'm of the belief that
anyone that has problems getting things working should document what
they did to get their machine working (if they ever did).  Regardless of
how out of date it is...you never know how helpful it could be.  For
example...the install directions should include the serial console
tidbit.  Everyone here knows about it...but not everyone does when they
go to first boot off the image (as I did, and subsequently emailed Paul
Bame).  But regardless of the state of the port...sometimes software
just doesn't like to run on multiple platforms (any *nix distro on a
Sony vaio will have problems with the multimedia stuff built into
them...because of the machine...like those particular HP servers that
just don't work). It's good to have documentation. It's part of what
seperates good software from bad.

> Exactly. Post it here and people can find it by searching the
> mail archive. (That's probably another FAQ, Alex?).

When I get done, I most certainly will.

> not really...let's say you've got your system and/or Netscape (and/or
> MSIE) default fonts the size that you'd like (for readability).
> Along comes a page that says: hey...I don't care what your default is,
> I want "size=-1" or "size=-2" ... i.e., "I want a font smaller than
> you like".

*nod* Hrm...that's messed up.  I've never done such a thing.  I've
always done the size=+1 to indicate bold (because bold just isn't enough
sometimes)...but to make the stuff smaller...that's just plain bad
design (unless you want some fine print at the bottom, then it's just
plain bad mojo).  If people can't see what you want them to, what good
is it.  Though I mistakenly thought that the overrides overrides _all_
font settings in the page. For it not to, when you specifically tell it
to...I don't know, maybe another setting for relative font sizing in the
browsers is in order.

>Me too...particularly the bad way HP uses them...they violate the HTML
>standard, and the result is (often) that Netscape renders them okay,
>but refuses to search for text in them (if you do control-F).

*nod* Java generated pages do that to me on occasion to.

>You're missing something...the pages that Matthew (and others) have 
>complained about are going out of their way to say:
>   hey, we know better than the owner of the computer what font sizes
>   are readable on his/her PC!

I was missing that yes.  What should really happen then is that sites
stop doing that...but until they do...maybe what some people need is a
web site post-processor proxy that gets rid of the size=-* tags.

>I only used that as an example of a page that doesn't try to control
>the font size, so you could do a quick A/B comparison.
>BTW, that was a nice posting you did, thanks!
With the previous 3 or 4 responses above...yeah, I got that now. 
Originally I thought you were trying to tout your 31337 html coding
abilities...then I got there, and noticed the white *wink*.  I used to
go to a site called Silicon Toad's BBS (back in 94, mosaic was the
shit), and he hand coded everything.  That was an impressive site in the
2.x days when the lucky people had 19.2.  Pretty and less than 10k.
*nastalga mode off*
And, um, you're welcome?

 - Josiah