* Re: [PATCH v2] x86: Start removing X86_X32_ABI
2026-07-08 11:26 ` Arnd Bergmann
@ 2026-07-08 11:51 ` Richard Purdie
2026-07-08 12:22 ` Sam James
2026-07-08 12:33 ` Sebastian Andrzej Siewior
2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Richard Purdie @ 2026-07-08 11:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Arnd Bergmann, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior,
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
Cc: linux-kernel, x86, H. Peter Anvin, Borislav Petkov, Dave Hansen,
Ingo Molnar, Jonathan Corbet, Thomas Gleixner, Sam James,
Neal Gompa, Tomas Glozar, Maciej W. Rozycki
On Wed, 2026-07-08 at 13:26 +0200, Arnd Bergmann wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2026, at 09:36, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior wrote:
> > On 2026-07-08 08:31:30 [+0200], John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> > > > Since there is practically no real use for x32, start removing
> > > > it by
> > > > removing the symbol first, not allowing to enable it. Should
> > > > nothing
> > > > happening by the end of the year, it will removed after the
> > > > last LTS
> > > > kernel this year.
> > >
> > > As mentioned before, there are still actively maintained Debian
> > > and Gentoo
> > > ports of x32, so I guess the last paragraph is rather subjective.
> >
> > On the Debian ports side: lacks a browser like firefox or chromium.
> > No
> > native ocaml compiler. libreoffice is not present.
> > Not once released in contrast to kFreeBSD.
> >
> > This does not look like healthy port that will become eventually a
> > release architecture. To quote the introduction paragraph of
> > ports.d.o:
> > > The goal of this machine is to provide an infrastructure for
> > > unofficial
> > > architectures until they are integrated in the main Debian
> > > archive.
>
> x32 is a bit different since you can't have a pure x32 distro
> anyway but always need to install an x86_64 distro first
> to get a working kernel and base system before you can choose
> a mix 32-bit and 64-bit packages. This is not that different
> from armhf and i686, which run fine on 64-bit hardware but
> always require you to start with a 64-bit installer. [for
> different reasons though: armhf has an installer but its
> kernel only works on 32-bit machines; i686 kernels can
> theoretically run on older 64-bit hardware but Debian
> no longer provides an installer for it]
FWIW Yocto Project (which cross compiles) can happily build x32 images
and has been able to for years, basically since it was added to the
kernel. It can also mix 32, x32 and 64 bit binaries (and supported n32
on mips too). We do test them nightly under qemu, I think including
boot tests under qemu but I'd have to double check if we still do.
It is very unclear that anyone uses x32 though. If the kernel drops
support, we'll just follow.
Cheers,
Richard
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH v2] x86: Start removing X86_X32_ABI
2026-07-08 11:26 ` Arnd Bergmann
2026-07-08 11:51 ` Richard Purdie
@ 2026-07-08 12:22 ` Sam James
2026-07-08 12:44 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2026-07-08 12:33 ` Sebastian Andrzej Siewior
2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Sam James @ 2026-07-08 12:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Arnd Bergmann
Cc: Sebastian Andrzej Siewior, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz,
linux-kernel, x86, H. Peter Anvin, Borislav Petkov, Dave Hansen,
Ingo Molnar, Jonathan Corbet, Thomas Gleixner, Neal Gompa,
Tomas Glozar, Maciej W. Rozycki, Richard Purdie
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3086 bytes --]
"Arnd Bergmann" <arnd@arndb.de> writes:
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2026, at 09:36, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior wrote:
>> On 2026-07-08 08:31:30 [+0200], John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>>> > Since there is practically no real use for x32, start removing it by
>>> > removing the symbol first, not allowing to enable it. Should nothing
>>> > happening by the end of the year, it will removed after the last LTS
>>> > kernel this year.
>>>
>>> As mentioned before, there are still actively maintained Debian and Gentoo
>>> ports of x32, so I guess the last paragraph is rather subjective.
>>
>> On the Debian ports side: lacks a browser like firefox or chromium. No
>> native ocaml compiler. libreoffice is not present.
>> Not once released in contrast to kFreeBSD.
>>
>> This does not look like healthy port that will become eventually a
>> release architecture. To quote the introduction paragraph of ports.d.o:
>> | The goal of this machine is to provide an infrastructure for unofficial
>> | architectures until they are integrated in the main Debian archive.
>
> x32 is a bit different since you can't have a pure x32 distro
> anyway but always need to install an x86_64 distro first
> to get a working kernel and base system before you can choose
> a mix 32-bit and 64-bit packages. This is not that different
> from armhf and i686, which run fine on 64-bit hardware but
> always require you to start with a 64-bit installer. [for
> different reasons though: armhf has an installer but its
> kernel only works on 32-bit machines; i686 kernels can
> theoretically run on older 64-bit hardware but Debian
> no longer provides an installer for it]
>
> As far as I understand, the typical use case for debian-x32 is
> to run just a single performance-critical application, either
> using "dpkg --add-architecture" or mmdebstrap/schroot. I used
> to do that for having a faster gcc a decade ago when I was using
> x86 build machines, though these days that probably fails
> due to the linker running out of virtual memory in large
> configurations.
>
> Either approach can keep working using Debian Forky as the host
> distro as long as that gets security updates for linux-image-7.3,
> presumaby mid-2032 for LTS or at the latest 2037 with the
> ELTS/SLTS kernels. This does require a choice for the Debian
> x32 team though: either freeze userspace to Forky as well for
> compatibility with 'dpkg --add-architecture', or stay on
> unstable/testing and only allow schroot installs going forward.
>
> My guess is that it's similar for Gentoo, which doesn't have
> an x32 installer or kernel package either, though their kernel
> support times are apparently much shorter than Debian's.
No, there are people who actually use pure x32 without any sort of
multilib on Gentoo.
Someone even noticed when we broke our live media for it:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/908599.
Are there masses of these people? No, I don't believe so, and
I'm not going to strenuously object to its removal, but there are users
of it.
>
> Arnd
sam
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH v2] x86: Start removing X86_X32_ABI
2026-07-08 12:22 ` Sam James
@ 2026-07-08 12:44 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: John Paul Adrian Glaubitz @ 2026-07-08 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sam James, Arnd Bergmann
Cc: Sebastian Andrzej Siewior, linux-kernel, x86, H. Peter Anvin,
Borislav Petkov, Dave Hansen, Ingo Molnar, Jonathan Corbet,
Thomas Gleixner, Neal Gompa, Tomas Glozar, Maciej W. Rozycki,
Richard Purdie
On Wed, 2026-07-08 at 13:22 +0100, Sam James wrote:
> > My guess is that it's similar for Gentoo, which doesn't have
> > an x32 installer or kernel package either, though their kernel
> > support times are apparently much shorter than Debian's.
>
> No, there are people who actually use pure x32 without any sort of
> multilib on Gentoo.
>
> Someone even noticed when we broke our live media for it:
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/908599.
>
> Are there masses of these people? No, I don't believe so, and
> I'm not going to strenuously object to its removal, but there are users
> of it.
Jepp, that's how I see it as well. I don't have particularly strong feelings
against the removal. But I think it should be well justified before breaking
something that people use.
Adrian
--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer
`. `' Physicist
`- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH v2] x86: Start removing X86_X32_ABI
2026-07-08 11:26 ` Arnd Bergmann
2026-07-08 11:51 ` Richard Purdie
2026-07-08 12:22 ` Sam James
@ 2026-07-08 12:33 ` Sebastian Andrzej Siewior
2026-07-08 13:16 ` Arnd Bergmann
2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Andrzej Siewior @ 2026-07-08 12:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Arnd Bergmann
Cc: John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, linux-kernel, x86, H. Peter Anvin,
Borislav Petkov, Dave Hansen, Ingo Molnar, Jonathan Corbet,
Thomas Gleixner, Sam James, Neal Gompa, Tomas Glozar,
Maciej W. Rozycki, Richard Purdie
On 2026-07-08 13:26:45 [+0200], Arnd Bergmann wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2026, at 09:36, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior wrote:
> > On 2026-07-08 08:31:30 [+0200], John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> >> > Since there is practically no real use for x32, start removing it by
> >> > removing the symbol first, not allowing to enable it. Should nothing
> >> > happening by the end of the year, it will removed after the last LTS
> >> > kernel this year.
> >>
> >> As mentioned before, there are still actively maintained Debian and Gentoo
> >> ports of x32, so I guess the last paragraph is rather subjective.
> >
> > On the Debian ports side: lacks a browser like firefox or chromium. No
> > native ocaml compiler. libreoffice is not present.
> > Not once released in contrast to kFreeBSD.
> >
> > This does not look like healthy port that will become eventually a
> > release architecture. To quote the introduction paragraph of ports.d.o:
> > | The goal of this machine is to provide an infrastructure for unofficial
> > | architectures until they are integrated in the main Debian archive.
>
> x32 is a bit different since you can't have a pure x32 distro
Why not?
> anyway but always need to install an x86_64 distro first
> to get a working kernel and base system before you can choose
> a mix 32-bit and 64-bit packages. This is not that different
> from armhf and i686, which run fine on 64-bit hardware but
You simply lack a Debian installer/ boot+install medium. Some ports
architectures to provide netboot images
https://get.debian.org/images/ports/snapshots/2026-06-12/
> always require you to start with a 64-bit installer. [for
> different reasons though: armhf has an installer but its
> kernel only works on 32-bit machines; i686 kernels can
> theoretically run on older 64-bit hardware but Debian
> no longer provides an installer for it]
>
> As far as I understand, the typical use case for debian-x32 is
> to run just a single performance-critical application, either
> using "dpkg --add-architecture" or mmdebstrap/schroot. I used
> to do that for having a faster gcc a decade ago when I was using
> x86 build machines, though these days that probably fails
> due to the linker running out of virtual memory in large
> configurations.
The "problem" with not being part of the main distro ist that you can't
have the packages say from Trixie and have security updates along with
it. Instead you always track Sid or don't update.
> Either approach can keep working using Debian Forky as the host
> distro as long as that gets security updates for linux-image-7.3,
> presumaby mid-2032 for LTS or at the latest 2037 with the
> ELTS/SLTS kernels. This does require a choice for the Debian
> x32 team though: either freeze userspace to Forky as well for
> compatibility with 'dpkg --add-architecture', or stay on
> unstable/testing and only allow schroot installs going forward.
>
> My guess is that it's similar for Gentoo, which doesn't have
> an x32 installer or kernel package either, though their kernel
> support times are apparently much shorter than Debian's.
>
> Arnd
Sebastian
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH v2] x86: Start removing X86_X32_ABI
2026-07-08 12:33 ` Sebastian Andrzej Siewior
@ 2026-07-08 13:16 ` Arnd Bergmann
2026-07-08 16:27 ` Maciej W. Rozycki
0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Arnd Bergmann @ 2026-07-08 13:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Andrzej Siewior
Cc: John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, linux-kernel, x86, H. Peter Anvin,
Borislav Petkov, Dave Hansen, Ingo Molnar, Jonathan Corbet,
Thomas Gleixner, Sam James, Neal Gompa, Tomas Glozar,
Maciej W. Rozycki, Richard Purdie
On Wed, Jul 8, 2026, at 14:33, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior wrote:
> On 2026-07-08 13:26:45 [+0200], Arnd Bergmann wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2026, at 09:36, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior wrote:
>> > On 2026-07-08 08:31:30 [+0200], John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> >> > Since there is practically no real use for x32, start removing it by
>> >> > removing the symbol first, not allowing to enable it. Should nothing
>> >> > happening by the end of the year, it will removed after the last LTS
>> >> > kernel this year.
>> >>
>> >> As mentioned before, there are still actively maintained Debian and Gentoo
>> >> ports of x32, so I guess the last paragraph is rather subjective.
>> >
>> > On the Debian ports side: lacks a browser like firefox or chromium. No
>> > native ocaml compiler. libreoffice is not present.
>> > Not once released in contrast to kFreeBSD.
>> >
>> > This does not look like healthy port that will become eventually a
>> > release architecture. To quote the introduction paragraph of ports.d.o:
>> > | The goal of this machine is to provide an infrastructure for unofficial
>> > | architectures until they are integrated in the main Debian archive.
>>
>> x32 is a bit different since you can't have a pure x32 distro
> Why not?
...
>
> You simply lack a Debian installer/ boot+install medium. Some ports
> architectures to provide netboot images
> https://get.debian.org/images/ports/snapshots/2026-06-12/
As I understand, it's a policy in Debian for debian-installer and
the kernel packages to only provide kernels for the native
architecture, i.e. 64-bit x86 kernels are only packaged for
amd64 and not x32 or i686, and 64-bit Arm kernels are only
packaged for arm64 but not armhf or formerly armel.
It would of course be trivial to create a kernel package with a
64-bit kernel inside of an x32/armhf/armel .deb file, but that
would not be included as an official package.
>> always require you to start with a 64-bit installer. [for
>> different reasons though: armhf has an installer but its
>> kernel only works on 32-bit machines; i686 kernels can
>> theoretically run on older 64-bit hardware but Debian
>> no longer provides an installer for it]
>>
>> As far as I understand, the typical use case for debian-x32 is
>> to run just a single performance-critical application, either
>> using "dpkg --add-architecture" or mmdebstrap/schroot. I used
>> to do that for having a faster gcc a decade ago when I was using
>> x86 build machines, though these days that probably fails
>> due to the linker running out of virtual memory in large
>> configurations.
>
> The "problem" with not being part of the main distro ist that you can't
> have the packages say from Trixie and have security updates along with
> it. Instead you always track Sid or don't update.
This is also more a policy problem than a technical one.
Obviously one could build all Trixie (or Forky in the future)
source packages for x32 the same way that debian-ports today
contains Sid packages. I don't know if including those
in debian-ports would fundamentally changes that is run,
or if that just needs someone to do it.
Arnd
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [PATCH v2] x86: Start removing X86_X32_ABI
2026-07-08 13:16 ` Arnd Bergmann
@ 2026-07-08 16:27 ` Maciej W. Rozycki
2026-07-08 20:26 ` David Laight
0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Maciej W. Rozycki @ 2026-07-08 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Arnd Bergmann
Cc: Sebastian Andrzej Siewior, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz,
linux-kernel, x86, H. Peter Anvin, Borislav Petkov, Dave Hansen,
Ingo Molnar, Jonathan Corbet, Thomas Gleixner, Sam James,
Neal Gompa, Tomas Glozar, Richard Purdie
On Wed, 8 Jul 2026, Arnd Bergmann wrote:
> As I understand, it's a policy in Debian for debian-installer and
> the kernel packages to only provide kernels for the native
> architecture, i.e. 64-bit x86 kernels are only packaged for
> amd64 and not x32 or i686, and 64-bit Arm kernels are only
> packaged for arm64 but not armhf or formerly armel.
Weird, x32 vs x64 for the Intel ISA or say n32 vs n64 for the MIPS ISA
are psABI variants rather than architectures. All are native, just using
different register usage conventions.
And the kernel is a bare metal application, it has nothing to do with the
userland as far as the user psABI is concerned. It could use yet another
psABI and I suspect this is the case at least for some of the Linux ports
(`-mregparm=' GCC option comes immediately to mind). Insisting that the
same compilation options are used for the kernel as with all the userland
packages in a distribution seems artificial and unreasonable to me.
BTW, at least with n32 the MIPS architecture permits CPU implementations
that only support that psABI and not n64. Never implemented, I believe,
but just proves its nativity.
FWIW,
Maciej
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH v2] x86: Start removing X86_X32_ABI
2026-07-08 16:27 ` Maciej W. Rozycki
@ 2026-07-08 20:26 ` David Laight
2026-07-08 23:58 ` Maciej W. Rozycki
2026-07-10 20:59 ` H. Peter Anvin
0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: David Laight @ 2026-07-08 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Maciej W. Rozycki
Cc: Arnd Bergmann, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior,
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, linux-kernel, x86, H. Peter Anvin,
Borislav Petkov, Dave Hansen, Ingo Molnar, Jonathan Corbet,
Thomas Gleixner, Sam James, Neal Gompa, Tomas Glozar,
Richard Purdie
On Wed, 8 Jul 2026 17:27:46 +0100 (BST)
"Maciej W. Rozycki" <macro@orcam.me.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2026, Arnd Bergmann wrote:
>
> > As I understand, it's a policy in Debian for debian-installer and
> > the kernel packages to only provide kernels for the native
> > architecture, i.e. 64-bit x86 kernels are only packaged for
> > amd64 and not x32 or i686, and 64-bit Arm kernels are only
> > packaged for arm64 but not armhf or formerly armel.
>
> Weird, x32 vs x64 for the Intel ISA or say n32 vs n64 for the MIPS ISA
> are psABI variants rather than architectures. All are native, just using
> different register usage conventions.
IIRC n32 just uses the 32bit system calls.
x32 can't do that due to the differing alignment of u64.
So the x86-64 kernel has to have three sets of system call wrappers (etc).
David
>
> And the kernel is a bare metal application, it has nothing to do with the
> userland as far as the user psABI is concerned. It could use yet another
> psABI and I suspect this is the case at least for some of the Linux ports
> (`-mregparm=' GCC option comes immediately to mind). Insisting that the
> same compilation options are used for the kernel as with all the userland
> packages in a distribution seems artificial and unreasonable to me.
>
> BTW, at least with n32 the MIPS architecture permits CPU implementations
> that only support that psABI and not n64. Never implemented, I believe,
> but just proves its nativity.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Maciej
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH v2] x86: Start removing X86_X32_ABI
2026-07-08 20:26 ` David Laight
@ 2026-07-08 23:58 ` Maciej W. Rozycki
2026-07-10 20:59 ` H. Peter Anvin
1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Maciej W. Rozycki @ 2026-07-08 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Laight
Cc: Arnd Bergmann, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior,
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, linux-kernel, x86, H. Peter Anvin,
Borislav Petkov, Dave Hansen, Ingo Molnar, Jonathan Corbet,
Thomas Gleixner, Sam James, Neal Gompa, Tomas Glozar,
Richard Purdie
On Wed, 8 Jul 2026, David Laight wrote:
> > Weird, x32 vs x64 for the Intel ISA or say n32 vs n64 for the MIPS ISA
> > are psABI variants rather than architectures. All are native, just using
> > different register usage conventions.
>
> IIRC n32 just uses the 32bit system calls.
It has its own set, as it's a 64-bit ABI and needs to pass 64-bit data
accordingly.
> So the x86-64 kernel has to have three sets of system call wrappers (etc).
Likewise a 64-bit MIPS kernel. Depending on the configuration chosen it
may have up to three sets, two 64-bit sets for n32 and n64 psABIs each and
one 32-bit set for o32 compat psABI.
I don't know what psABI Debian chose for their 64-bit MIPS ports when
they were still live, but the default for the GNU toolchain for the Linux
target has been n32.
Maciej
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH v2] x86: Start removing X86_X32_ABI
2026-07-08 20:26 ` David Laight
2026-07-08 23:58 ` Maciej W. Rozycki
@ 2026-07-10 20:59 ` H. Peter Anvin
1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: H. Peter Anvin @ 2026-07-10 20:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Laight, Maciej W. Rozycki
Cc: Arnd Bergmann, Sebastian Andrzej Siewior,
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, linux-kernel, x86, Borislav Petkov,
Dave Hansen, Ingo Molnar, Jonathan Corbet, Thomas Gleixner,
Sam James, Neal Gompa, Tomas Glozar, Richard Purdie
On July 8, 2026 1:26:28 PM PDT, David Laight <david.laight.linux@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Jul 2026 17:27:46 +0100 (BST)
>"Maciej W. Rozycki" <macro@orcam.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 8 Jul 2026, Arnd Bergmann wrote:
>>
>> > As I understand, it's a policy in Debian for debian-installer and
>> > the kernel packages to only provide kernels for the native
>> > architecture, i.e. 64-bit x86 kernels are only packaged for
>> > amd64 and not x32 or i686, and 64-bit Arm kernels are only
>> > packaged for arm64 but not armhf or formerly armel.
>>
>> Weird, x32 vs x64 for the Intel ISA or say n32 vs n64 for the MIPS ISA
>> are psABI variants rather than architectures. All are native, just using
>> different register usage conventions.
>
>IIRC n32 just uses the 32bit system calls.
>x32 can't do that due to the differing alignment of u64.
>So the x86-64 kernel has to have three sets of system call wrappers (etc).
>
> David
>
>>
>> And the kernel is a bare metal application, it has nothing to do with the
>> userland as far as the user psABI is concerned. It could use yet another
>> psABI and I suspect this is the case at least for some of the Linux ports
>> (`-mregparm=' GCC option comes immediately to mind). Insisting that the
>> same compilation options are used for the kernel as with all the userland
>> packages in a distribution seems artificial and unreasonable to me.
>>
>> BTW, at least with n32 the MIPS architecture permits CPU implementations
>> that only support that psABI and not n64. Never implemented, I believe,
>> but just proves its nativity.
>>
>> FWIW,
>>
>> Maciej
>>
>
A very small number, though. The vast majority are the same as either x64 or i386.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread