Re: [virtio-comment] Re: [PATCH v3 4/4] Add CCW configuration field "indirect_num"

[Cornelia Huck <cohuck@redhat.com>]

On Tue, Mar 22 2022, Halil Pasic <pasic@linux.ibm.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:36:26 +0100
> Cornelia Huck <cohuck@redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Mar 19 2022, Christian Schoenebeck <qemu_oss@crudebyte.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > On Freitag, 18. März 2022 17:06:25 CET Halil Pasic wrote:  
>> 
>> >> I agree that the "including" is important, but I'm not sure about the
>> >> "its contents are undefined". I don't really understand why should we use
>> >> a plural here. What speaks against specifying that in SHOULD be stored
>> >> as 0 by the device, and MUST be ignored by the driver?  
>> >
>> > Both solutions would be viable. Personally I would just use something like 
>> > "Should be zero" if there is a value in recommending that, but I don't see a 
>> > value in recommending to set something to zero and at the same time requiring 
>> > to not access it in the first place.
>> >  
>> >> Currently we say that \field{max_indirect_num} exists like a be32 field
>> >> even if VIRTIO_RING_F_INDIRECT_SIZE is not negotiated. Which kind of
>> >> implies that at least type invariants should hold. Of course, there is
>> >> none here (i.e. every bits value is also a be32 value), but for something
>> >> like an enum interesting corner cases can pop up.  
>> >
>> > I can't follow you on that one. What has that do with enums in this case?
>> >
>> > Anyway, I won't persist on my suggestion to use the (IMO more compact form) 
>> > "undefined". If you guys prefer the more specific solution "SHOULD be 0 and 
>> > MUST not be accessed" then I will go that way.  
>> 
>> I'm not sure what mandating 0 and non-access would buy us here... the
>> driver can of course read the field (e.g. when copying the structure
>> wholesale); it just can't make use of the contents when it did not
>> negotiate the feature (but why would it do so in that case anyway?)
>
> My train of thought was that making the device give us a well defined
> 0 could benefit robustness. The idea was, that even if the driver was
> buggy, and used the value we would still end up with some sane behavior.

I'm not sure a 0 would lead to sane behaviour in an already buggy
driver... operating with a limit of 0 would imply that the driver cannot
really do anything, and I'm not sure a driver buggy enough to access the
field would heed that. There's nothing wrong with a device using 0 if
the feature had not been negotiated, but I don't think it will help much
with already buggy drivers.

>
>> 
>> Also, I think junk remains junk, whether it is a be32 field or
>> interpreted as an enum. It is simply not valid, even if it might by
>> accident end up to be a defined enum value.
>
> What I had in mind is the difference between "trap representation" and
> "unspecified value" in terms of the C standard. Using a "trap
> representation" is undefined behavior, while using an "unspecified value"
> is far less serious. As far as I remember, there are no trap
> representations for enumerated types in C, so the example ain't perfect.
> But if some code was to assume that all it can see it the values defined
> in the enum, strange stuff may happen.

While the struct definitions look suspiciously like C, they are not in
fact C :) I don't think the spec defines anything of the above, and I
don't think it should.

>
>
>> 
>> So I think "undefined" should be fine.
>> 
>
> BTW the C standard uses the term "indeterminate value" in this situation.

"Indeterminate value" is a bit of a mouthful, though; "undefined" or
"unpredictable" from the driver's point of view should already capture
it, as the driver is not supposed to do anything with the value anyway.


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