[RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Cedric Le Goater]

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Hello All,

Some of us will meet next week for the first mini-summit on containers.
Many thanks to Alasdair Kergon and LCE for the help they provided in 
making this mini-summit happen !

It will be help on Monday the 3rd of September from 9:00 to 12:45 at LCE
in room D. We also might get a phone line for external participants and, 
if not, we should be able to set up a skype phone.

Here's a first try for the Agenda. 

Global items 

	 [ let's try to defer discussion after presentation ]  

* Pavel Emelianov status update 
* Serge E. Hallyn Container Roadmap including  
	. task containers (Paul Menage)
	. resource management (Srivatsa Vaddagiri) 

Special items

	[ brainstorm sessions which we would like to focus on ]

* builing the global container object ('a la' openvz or vserver)
* container user space tools
* container checkpoint/restart  


Thanks,

C.



[-- Attachment #2: container-roadmap.txt --]
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======================  Section 1  ======================
=Introduction
======================  Section 1  ======================

We are trying to create a roadmap for the next year of
'container' development, to be reported to the upcoming kernel
summit.  Containers here is a bit of an ambiguous term, so we are
taking it to mean all of:

	1. namespaces
                kernel resource namespaces to support resource isolation
                and virtualization for virtual servers and application
                checkpoint/restart.
	2. task containers framework
                 task containers provide a framework for subsystems which associate
		 state with arbitrary groups of processes, for purposes such as
		 resource control/monitoring.
	3. checkpoint/restart

======================  Section 2  ======================
=Detailed development plans
======================  Section 2  ======================

A (still under construction) list of features we expect to be worked on
next year looks like this:

        1. completion of ongoing namespaces
                pid namespace
                        push merged patchset upstream
                        kthread cleanup
                                especially nfs
                                autofs
                        af_unix credentials (stores pid_t?)
                net namespace
                ro bind mounts
        2. continuation with new namespaces
                devpts, console, and ttydrivers
                user
                time
                namespace management tools
                namespace entering  (using one of:)
                        bind_ns()
                        ns container subsystem
                        (vs refuse this functionality)
                multiple /sys mounts
                        break /sys into smaller chunks?
                        shadow dirs vs namespaces
                multiple proc mounts
                        likely need to extend on the work done for pid namespaces
                        i.e. other /proc files will need some care
				virtualization of statistics for 'top', etc
        3. any additional work needed for virtual servers?
                i.e. in-kernel keyring usage for cross-usernamespace permissions, etc
                        nfs and rpc updates needed?
                        general security fixes
                                per-container capabilities?
                        device access controls
                                e.g. root in container should not have access to /dev/sda by default)
                        filesystems access controls
		'container object'?
			implementation (perhaps largely userspace abstraction)
			container enter
			container list
			container shutdown notification

        4. task containers functionality
                base features
			hierarchical/virtualized containers
                                support vserver mgmnt of sub-containers
                        locking cleanup
                        control file API simplification
		userpace RBCE to provide controls for
			users
			groups
			pgrp
			executable
                specific containers targeted:
                        split cpusets into
                                cpuset
                                memset
                        network
                                connect/bind/accept controller using iptables
			memory controller (see detail below)
			cpu controller d (see detailbelow)
			io controller (see detail below)
                        network flow id control
                        per-container OOM handler (userspace)
			per-container swap
			per-container disk I/O scheduling
			per container memory reclaim
			per container dirty page (write throttling) limit.
			network rate limiting (outbound) based on container
		misc
			User level APIS to identify the resource limits that is allowed to a
				job, for example, how much physical memory a
				process can use.  This should seamlessly
				integrated with non-container environment as
				well (may be with ulimit).
			Per container stats, like pages on active list, cpus usage, etc
		memory controller
			users and requirements:
				1. The containers solution would need resource
				management (including memory control and per container swap files).
				Paul Menage, YAMOMOTO Takshi, Peter Zijlstra, Pavel Emelianov have all shown
				interest in the memory controller patches.
				2. The memory controller can account for page
				cache as well, all people interested in limiting page cahce control, can
				theoratically put move all page cache hungry applications under the same
				container.
			Planned enhancements to the memory controller
				1. Improved shared page accounting
				2. Improved statistics
				3. Soft-limit memory usage
			generic infrastructure work:
				1. Enhancing containerstats
					a. Working on per controller statistics
					b. Integrating taskstats with containerstats
				2. CPU accounting framework
					a. Migrate the accounting to be more precis
		cpu controller
			users and requirements:
				1. Virtualization solutions like containers and
				   KVM need CPU control. KVM for example would
				   like to have both limits and guarantees
				   supported by a CPU controller, to control CPU
				   allocation to a particular instance.
				2. Workload management products would like to exploit this for providing
				   guaranteed cpu bandwidth and also (hard/soft) limiting cpu usage.
			work items
				1. Fine-grained proportional-share fair-group scheduling.
				2. More accurate SMP fairness
				3. Hard limit
				4. SCHED_FIFO type policy for groups
				5. Improved statistics and debug facility for group scheduler
		io controller
			users and requirements:
				1. At a talk presented to the Linux Foundation
				(OSDL), the attendees showed interest in an IO
				controller to control IO bandwidth of various
				filesystem operations (backup, journalling,
				etc)
			work items:
				1. Proof of concept IO controller and community discussion/feedback
				2. Development and Integration of the IO controller with containers
			open issues
				1. Automatic tagging/resource classification engine


        5. checkpoint/restart
                memory c/r
                        (there are a few designs and prototypes)
                        (though this may be ironed out by then)
                        per-container swapfile?
                overall checkpoint strategy  (one of:)
                        in-kernel
                        userspace-driven
                        hybrid
                overall restart strategy
                use freezer API
                use suspend-to-disk?
                sysvipc
                        "set identifier" syscall
		pid namespace
                        clone_with_pid()
		live migration


======================  Section 3  ======================
=Use cases
======================  Section 3  ======================

	1, Namespaces:

	The most commonly listed uses for namespaces are virtual
	servers and checkpoint restart.  Other uses are debugging
	(running tests in not-quite-virtual-servers) and resource
	isolation, such as the use of mounts namespaces to simulate
	multi-level directories for LSPP.

	2. Task Containers:

	(Vatsa to fill in)

	3. Checkpoint/restart

	load balancing:
	applications can be migrated from high-load systems to ones
	with a lower load.  Long-running applications can be checkpointed
	(or migrated) to start a short-running high-load job, then
	restarted.

	kernel upgrades:
	A long-running application - or whole virtual server - can
	be migrated or checkpointed so that the system can be
	rebooted, and the application can continue to run


======================  Section 4  ======================
=Involved parties
======================  Section 4  ======================

In the list of stakeholders, I try to guess based on past comments and
contributions what *general* area they are most likely to contribute in.
I may try to narrow those down later, but am just trying to get something
out the door right now before my next computer breaks.

Stakeholders:
        Eric Biederman
                everything
        google
                task containers
        ibm (serge, dave, cedric, daniel)
                namespaces
		checkpoint/restart
	bull (benjamin, pierre)
                namespaces
		checkpoint/restart
        ibm (balbir, vatsa)
		task containers
        kerlabs
                checkpoint/restart
        openvz
                everything
        NEC Japan (Masahiko Takahashi)
                checkpoint/restart
        Linux-VServer
                namespaces+containers
        zap project
                checkpoint/restart
        planetlab
                everything
        hp
		network namespaces, virtual servers?
        XtreemOS
                checkpoint/restart
	Fujitsu/VA Linux Japan
		resource control
	BLCR (Paul H. Hargrove)
		checkpoint/restart

Is anyone else still missing from the list?

thanks,
-serge

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Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Rohit Seth]

Cedric Le Goater wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Some of us will meet next week for the first mini-summit on containers.
> Many thanks to Alasdair Kergon and LCE for the help they provided in 
> making this mini-summit happen !
>
> It will be help on Monday the 3rd of September from 9:00 to 12:45 at LCE
> in room D. We also might get a phone line for external participants and, 
> if not, we should be able to set up a skype phone.
>
> Here's a first try for the Agenda. 
>   
Thanks Cedric for publishing the agenda.  Could you or some one else 
also publish the minutes after the summit so as to help the folks not 
able to attend this because of time zone difference.

Thanks,
-rohit

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Cedric Le Goater]

Hello Rohit !

Rohit Seth wrote:
> Cedric Le Goater wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> Some of us will meet next week for the first mini-summit on containers.
>> Many thanks to Alasdair Kergon and LCE for the help they provided in
>> making this mini-summit happen !
>>
>> It will be help on Monday the 3rd of September from 9:00 to 12:45 at LCE
>> in room D. We also might get a phone line for external participants
>> and, if not, we should be able to set up a skype phone.
>>
>> Here's a first try for the Agenda.   
> Thanks Cedric for publishing the agenda.  Could you or some one else
> also publish the minutes after the summit so as to help the folks not
> able to attend this because of time zone difference.

For once, I'm on the right time zone :)

Sure, we'll take notes and publish them. Any volunteer ?

C. 

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Oren Laadan]

Cedric Le Goater wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> Some of us will meet next week for the first mini-summit on containers.
> Many thanks to Alasdair Kergon and LCE for the help they provided in 
> making this mini-summit happen !
> 
> It will be help on Monday the 3rd of September from 9:00 to 12:45 at LCE
> in room D. We also might get a phone line for external participants and, 
> if not, we should be able to set up a skype phone.
> 
> Here's a first try for the Agenda. 
> 
> Global items 
> 
> 	 [ let's try to defer discussion after presentation ]  
> 
> * Pavel Emelianov status update 
> * Serge E. Hallyn Container Roadmap including  
> 	. task containers (Paul Menage)
> 	. resource management (Srivatsa Vaddagiri) 
> 
> Special items
> 
> 	[ brainstorm sessions which we would like to focus on ]
> 
> * builing the global container object ('a la' openvz or vserver)
> * container user space tools
> * container checkpoint/restart  

        5. checkpoint/restart
                memory c/r
                        (there are a few designs and prototypes)
                        (though this may be ironed out by then)
                        per-container swapfile?
                overall checkpoint strategy  (one of:)
                        in-kernel
                        userspace-driven
                        hybrid
                overall restart strategy
                use freezer API
                use suspend-to-disk?

                sysvipc
                        "set identifier" syscall
		pid namespace
                        clone_with_pid()
There are other identifiers - pseudo terminals, message queues (mq)
(if you insist on supporting these ...). In general, we need a way
to specify the virtual id of a resource that is created. I suggest
that this should be part of an interface between c/r and containers
(see below)

		live migration
aka pre-copy (which can be used for live migration but also to reduce
the downtime due to a checkpoint).

how about adding incremental checkpoint to the list ?

I think that it is also important to discuss an interface between c/r and
containers, each of which stands on it own. For instance, how to request
a specific virtual id (during restart), define required notifiers (to
set/unset c/r related data on/off a task), control c/r-related setting of
container (e.g. frozen, restarting) that may affect behavior, such as
signal handling, and so forth. Also, such an interface can allow existing
c/r implementations to work with different virtualization implementations
as they become available.

Many of these were discussed in a recent Zap paper present in USENIX:
http://www.ncl.cs.columbia.edu/publications/usenix2007_fordist.pdf
The paper describes important design choices in Zap (but I'm biased ...).
I think it may serve as an appetizer for the discussion :P

Oren.

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Cedric Le Goater]

Hello Oren,

Oren Laadan wrote:
> Cedric Le Goater wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> Some of us will meet next week for the first mini-summit on containers.
>> Many thanks to Alasdair Kergon and LCE for the help they provided in 
>> making this mini-summit happen !
>>
>> It will be help on Monday the 3rd of September from 9:00 to 12:45 at LCE
>> in room D. We also might get a phone line for external participants and, 
>> if not, we should be able to set up a skype phone.
>>
>> Here's a first try for the Agenda. 
>>
>> Global items 
>>
>> 	 [ let's try to defer discussion after presentation ]  
>>
>> * Pavel Emelianov status update 
>> * Serge E. Hallyn Container Roadmap including  
>> 	. task containers (Paul Menage)
>> 	. resource management (Srivatsa Vaddagiri) 
>>
>> Special items
>>
>> 	[ brainstorm sessions which we would like to focus on ]
>>
>> * builing the global container object ('a la' openvz or vserver)
>> * container user space tools
>> * container checkpoint/restart  
> 
>         5. checkpoint/restart
>                 memory c/r
>                         (there are a few designs and prototypes)
>                         (though this may be ironed out by then)
>                         per-container swapfile?
>                 overall checkpoint strategy  (one of:)
>                         in-kernel
>                         userspace-driven
>                         hybrid
>                 overall restart strategy
>                 use freezer API
>                 use suspend-to-disk?
> 
>                 sysvipc
>                         "set identifier" syscall
> 		pid namespace
>                         clone_with_pid()
> There are other identifiers - pseudo terminals, message queues (mq)

right, we have plans for developing these if needed (cf 2.)

> (if you insist on supporting these ...). In general, we need a way
> to specify the virtual id of a resource that is created. 

right, pierre peiffer has sent such a pachset for the sysvipc namespace.
I'm looking at a clone_with_pid() for pid namespace.   

> I suggest
> that this should be part of an interface between c/r and containers
> (see below)
> 
> 		live migration
> aka pre-copy (which can be used for live migration but also to reduce
> the downtime due to a checkpoint).

yes that's usually what the buzz term "live migration" is used for. 

> how about adding incremental checkpoint to the list ?

sure. I think it's a bit early to address these topic but we should have 
them in mind as some implementations already exist. And we need to gather 
all the needs.

> I think that it is also important to discuss an interface between c/r and
> containers, each of which stands on it own. For instance, how to request
> a specific virtual id (during restart), define required notifiers (to
> set/unset c/r related data on/off a task), control c/r-related setting of
> container (e.g. frozen, restarting) that may affect behavior, such as
> signal handling, and so forth. 

This is exactly what we want to talk about. 

We need to identify these C/R needs, talk and agree about possible APIS 
and then convince the linux subsystem maintainers that they are useful 
for a large set of C/R solutions based on containers.     

> Also, such an interface can allow existing c/r implementations to work with 
> different virtualization implementations as they become available.

what you call "virtualization" (private identifier namespaces), is I think 
being covered by the namespaces. These namespaces are not complete (like 
we're missing a way to reassign ids) but they are going in the right 
direction, IMO. However, I don't think there will be different 
"virtualization" implementations in mainline.

> Many of these were discussed in a recent Zap paper present in USENIX:
> http://www.ncl.cs.columbia.edu/publications/usenix2007_fordist.pdf
> The paper describes important design choices in Zap (but I'm biased ...).
> I think it may serve as an appetizer for the discussion :P

Thanks, I hope we all have time to read it.

C.

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Cedric Le Goater]

>> Many of these were discussed in a recent Zap paper present in USENIX:
>> http://www.ncl.cs.columbia.edu/publications/usenix2007_fordist.pdf
>> The paper describes important design choices in Zap (but I'm biased ...).
>> I think it may serve as an appetizer for the discussion :P
> 
> Thanks, I hope we all have time to read it.

The abstract says : 

"...
Our results show checkpoint and restart times 3 to 55 times faster than 
OpenVZ and 5 to 1100 times faster than Xen."

I'm impressed ! :) When can we play it ?

Thanks for the appetizer !

C.

Re: [Devel] Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Kirill Korotaev]

Cedric Le Goater wrote:
>>>Many of these were discussed in a recent Zap paper present in USENIX:
>>>http://www.ncl.cs.columbia.edu/publications/usenix2007_fordist.pdf
>>>The paper describes important design choices in Zap (but I'm biased ...).
>>>I think it may serve as an appetizer for the discussion :P
>>
>>Thanks, I hope we all have time to read it.
> 
> 
> The abstract says : 
> 
> "...
> Our results show checkpoint and restart times 3 to 55 times faster than 
> OpenVZ and 5 to 1100 times faster than Xen."
> 
> I'm impressed ! :) When can we play it ?
> 
> Thanks for the appetizer !

It is totally unfair to compare full virtualization solution such as OpenVZ
with sync on VE stop (for quotas consistency) and which doesn't require shared storage for migration
with POC which uses shared storage in the paper.

I'm not sure why author didn't pay attention to these HUGE differences in configuration...
Maybe because 1100x times is so incredible :@)

Thanks,
Kirill

Re: [Devel] Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Oren Laadan]

Kirill Korotaev wrote:
> Cedric Le Goater wrote:
>>>> Many of these were discussed in a recent Zap paper present in USENIX:
>>>> http://www.ncl.cs.columbia.edu/publications/usenix2007_fordist.pdf
>>>> The paper describes important design choices in Zap (but I'm biased ...).
>>>> I think it may serve as an appetizer for the discussion :P
>>> Thanks, I hope we all have time to read it.
>>
>> The abstract says : 
>>
>> "...
>> Our results show checkpoint and restart times 3 to 55 times faster than 
>> OpenVZ and 5 to 1100 times faster than Xen."
>>
>> I'm impressed ! :) When can we play it ?
>>
>> Thanks for the appetizer !

disclaimer(1): I'm one the other authors.
disclaimer(2): I hoped to focus on the technical issues in the paper rather
than start a flame war...

> It is totally unfair to compare full virtualization solution such as OpenVZ
> with sync on VE stop (for quotas consistency) and which doesn't require shared storage for migration
> with POC which uses shared storage in the paper.

Indeed we didn't try to hack OpenVZ to get max performance, or isolate the
components. For example, I suspect the long(er) restart times are mainly
due to container setup time as opposed to the restoration of the processes.
I even expressed this speculation during my talk.

Note the distinction between "migration" and "checkpoint-restart", as they
are not the same. Generally if you have c/r you can migrate. The performance
evaluation in the paper compared checkpoint and restart, not the migration
from one machine to another.

BTW, Zap *does* sync selected files (in particular shared mapping of files).
There are some optimization that move similar overhead out of the critical
path to reduce the downtime.

> I'm not sure why author didn't pay attention to these HUGE differences in configuration...
> Maybe because 1100x times is so incredible :@)

It's always difficult to compare HW and OS virtualization approaches
(in our terminology, HW approach - Xen, VMware, KVM etc .. they all work
under the guest OS, while OS approach - OpenVZ, Vserver, Zap .. work with
the OS, under the application). Both approaches have pros and cons. It's
even hard to compare between OS virtualization (aka containers) approaches
because they require different configs and provide different features.
For example, Zap is not geared to provide performance isolation.

The quotes comparison highlights the advantages of working at the application
(or container) level; For example if you want to run apache in an isolated
environment an be able to c/r or migrate: you choose a system (linux,
Zap, OpenVZ, Xen etc), and that implies some sort of configuration. Each
method has goods and bads, be in in functionality, overhead, ease-of-use
and so forth. In the specific case of running apache, this comparison
gives an idea of the gain/loss in terms of checkpoint/restart performance.

Oren.

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Oren Laadan]

Cedric Le Goater wrote:
> Hello Oren,
> 
> Oren Laadan wrote:
>> Cedric Le Goater wrote:
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> Some of us will meet next week for the first mini-summit on containers.
>>> Many thanks to Alasdair Kergon and LCE for the help they provided in 
>>> making this mini-summit happen !
>>>
>>> It will be help on Monday the 3rd of September from 9:00 to 12:45 at LCE
>>> in room D. We also might get a phone line for external participants and, 
>>> if not, we should be able to set up a skype phone.
>>>
>>> Here's a first try for the Agenda. 
>>>
>>> Global items 
>>>
>>> 	 [ let's try to defer discussion after presentation ]  
>>>
>>> * Pavel Emelianov status update 
>>> * Serge E. Hallyn Container Roadmap including  
>>> 	. task containers (Paul Menage)
>>> 	. resource management (Srivatsa Vaddagiri) 
>>>
>>> Special items
>>>
>>> 	[ brainstorm sessions which we would like to focus on ]
>>>
>>> * builing the global container object ('a la' openvz or vserver)
>>> * container user space tools
>>> * container checkpoint/restart  
>>         5. checkpoint/restart
>>                 memory c/r
>>                         (there are a few designs and prototypes)
>>                         (though this may be ironed out by then)
>>                         per-container swapfile?
>>                 overall checkpoint strategy  (one of:)
>>                         in-kernel
>>                         userspace-driven
>>                         hybrid
>>                 overall restart strategy
>>                 use freezer API
>>                 use suspend-to-disk?
>>
>>                 sysvipc
>>                         "set identifier" syscall
>> 		pid namespace
>>                         clone_with_pid()
>> There are other identifiers - pseudo terminals, message queues (mq)
> 
> right, we have plans for developing these if needed (cf 2.)
> 
>> (if you insist on supporting these ...). In general, we need a way
>> to specify the virtual id of a resource that is created. 
> 
> right, pierre peiffer has sent such a pachset for the sysvipc namespace.
> I'm looking at a clone_with_pid() for pid namespace.   
> 
>> I suggest
>> that this should be part of an interface between c/r and containers
>> (see below)
>>
>> 		live migration
>> aka pre-copy (which can be used for live migration but also to reduce
>> the downtime due to a checkpoint).
> 
> yes that's usually what the buzz term "live migration" is used for. 
> 
>> how about adding incremental checkpoint to the list ?
> 
> sure. I think it's a bit early to address these topic but we should have 
> them in mind as some implementations already exist. And we need to gather 
> all the needs.

exists in Zap; many lessons learned ;)

> 
>> I think that it is also important to discuss an interface between c/r and
>> containers, each of which stands on it own. For instance, how to request
>> a specific virtual id (during restart), define required notifiers (to
>> set/unset c/r related data on/off a task), control c/r-related setting of
>> container (e.g. frozen, restarting) that may affect behavior, such as
>> signal handling, and so forth. 
> 
> This is exactly what we want to talk about. 
> 
> We need to identify these C/R needs, talk and agree about possible APIS 
> and then convince the linux subsystem maintainers that they are useful 
> for a large set of C/R solutions based on containers.     
> 
>> Also, such an interface can allow existing c/r implementations to work with 
>> different virtualization implementations as they become available.
> 
> what you call "virtualization" (private identifier namespaces), is I think 
> being covered by the namespaces. These namespaces are not complete (like 
> we're missing a way to reassign ids) but they are going in the right 
> direction, IMO. However, I don't think there will be different 
> "virtualization" implementations in mainline.

I do hope so too. I'm thinking that the current ones may take some time
to converge, and even then there may be out-of-mainline (experimental ?
alternative ?) implementation as it so happens with linux at time :)
In that case defining an interface can be useful (apart from the fact
that you tackle issues when you actually define one).
There is also the other side -- multiple c/r implementations (mainline
or not) that may be geared toward different goals depending on desires
performance, functionality etc.

> 
>> Many of these were discussed in a recent Zap paper present in USENIX:
>> http://www.ncl.cs.columbia.edu/publications/usenix2007_fordist.pdf
>> The paper describes important design choices in Zap (but I'm biased ...).
>> I think it may serve as an appetizer for the discussion :P
> 
> Thanks, I hope we all have time to read it.
> 
> C.

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Kirill Kolyshkin]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 13222 bytes --]

So, this is just to confirm the final details about container
mini-summit which will be held tomorrow.

Time: starting at 9am 3th Sept.
Place: Cambridge's University Arms Hotel, room Churchill D.

Let's meet at the hotel lobby close to 9am and when go to the room.

Eric, Paul,
Can you please clarify whether will you be able to present or not?

PS sorry if you got this message a few times -- some DNS problems on my
mail server.



On 30/08/07, Cedric Le Goater <clg-NmTC/0ZBporQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> Some of us will meet next week for the first mini-summit on containers.
> Many thanks to Alasdair Kergon and LCE for the help they provided in
> making this mini-summit happen !
>
> It will be help on Monday the 3rd of September from 9:00 to 12:45 at LCE
> in room D. We also might get a phone line for external participants and,
> if not, we should be able to set up a skype phone.
>
> Here's a first try for the Agenda.
>
> Global items
>
>          [ let's try to defer discussion after presentation ]
>
> * Pavel Emelianov status update
> * Serge E. Hallyn Container Roadmap including
>         . task containers (Paul Menage)
>         . resource management (Srivatsa Vaddagiri)
>
> Special items
>
>         [ brainstorm sessions which we would like to focus on ]
>
> * builing the global container object ('a la' openvz or vserver)
> * container user space tools
> * container checkpoint/restart
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> C.
>
>
>
> ======================  Section 1  ======================
> =Introduction
> ======================  Section 1  ======================
>
> We are trying to create a roadmap for the next year of
> 'container' development, to be reported to the upcoming kernel
> summit.  Containers here is a bit of an ambiguous term, so we are
> taking it to mean all of:
>
>         1. namespaces
>                 kernel resource namespaces to support resource isolation
>                 and virtualization for virtual servers and application
>                 checkpoint/restart.
>         2. task containers framework
>                  task containers provide a framework for subsystems which
> associate
>                  state with arbitrary groups of processes, for purposes
> such as
>                  resource control/monitoring.
>         3. checkpoint/restart
>
> ======================  Section 2  ======================
> =Detailed development plans
> ======================  Section 2  ======================
>
> A (still under construction) list of features we expect to be worked on
> next year looks like this:
>
>         1. completion of ongoing namespaces
>                 pid namespace
>                         push merged patchset upstream
>                         kthread cleanup
>                                 especially nfs
>                                 autofs
>                         af_unix credentials (stores pid_t?)
>                 net namespace
>                 ro bind mounts
>         2. continuation with new namespaces
>                 devpts, console, and ttydrivers
>                 user
>                 time
>                 namespace management tools
>                 namespace entering  (using one of:)
>                         bind_ns()
>                         ns container subsystem
>                         (vs refuse this functionality)
>                 multiple /sys mounts
>                         break /sys into smaller chunks?
>                         shadow dirs vs namespaces
>                 multiple proc mounts
>                         likely need to extend on the work done for pid
> namespaces
>                         i.e. other /proc files will need some care
>                                 virtualization of statistics for 'top',
> etc
>         3. any additional work needed for virtual servers?
>                 i.e. in-kernel keyring usage for cross-usernamespace
> permissions, etc
>                         nfs and rpc updates needed?
>                         general security fixes
>                                 per-container capabilities?
>                         device access controls
>                                 e.g. root in container should not have
> access to /dev/sda by default)
>                         filesystems access controls
>                 'container object'?
>                         implementation (perhaps largely userspace
> abstraction)
>                         container enter
>                         container list
>                         container shutdown notification
>
>         4. task containers functionality
>                 base features
>                         hierarchical/virtualized containers
>                                 support vserver mgmnt of sub-containers
>                         locking cleanup
>                         control file API simplification
>                 userpace RBCE to provide controls for
>                         users
>                         groups
>                         pgrp
>                         executable
>                 specific containers targeted:
>                         split cpusets into
>                                 cpuset
>                                 memset
>                         network
>                                 connect/bind/accept controller using
> iptables
>                         memory controller (see detail below)
>                         cpu controller d (see detailbelow)
>                         io controller (see detail below)
>                         network flow id control
>                         per-container OOM handler (userspace)
>                         per-container swap
>                         per-container disk I/O scheduling
>                         per container memory reclaim
>                         per container dirty page (write throttling) limit.
>                         network rate limiting (outbound) based on
> container
>                 misc
>                         User level APIS to identify the resource limits
> that is allowed to a
>                                 job, for example, how much physical memory
> a
>                                 process can use.  This should seamlessly
>                                 integrated with non-container environment
> as
>                                 well (may be with ulimit).
>                         Per container stats, like pages on active list,
> cpus usage, etc
>                 memory controller
>                         users and requirements:
>                                 1. The containers solution would need
> resource
>                                 management (including memory control and
> per container swap files).
>                                 Paul Menage, YAMOMOTO Takshi, Peter
> Zijlstra, Pavel Emelianov have all shown
>                                 interest in the memory controller patches.
>                                 2. The memory controller can account for
> page
>                                 cache as well, all people interested in
> limiting page cahce control, can
>                                 theoratically put move all page cache
> hungry applications under the same
>                                 container.
>                         Planned enhancements to the memory controller
>                                 1. Improved shared page accounting
>                                 2. Improved statistics
>                                 3. Soft-limit memory usage
>                         generic infrastructure work:
>                                 1. Enhancing containerstats
>                                         a. Working on per controller
> statistics
>                                         b. Integrating taskstats with
> containerstats
>                                 2. CPU accounting framework
>                                         a. Migrate the accounting to be
> more precis
>                 cpu controller
>                         users and requirements:
>                                 1. Virtualization solutions like
> containers and
>                                    KVM need CPU control. KVM for example
> would
>                                    like to have both limits and guarantees
>                                    supported by a CPU controller, to
> control CPU
>                                    allocation to a particular instance.
>                                 2. Workload management products would like
> to exploit this for providing
>                                    guaranteed cpu bandwidth and also
> (hard/soft) limiting cpu usage.
>                         work items
>                                 1. Fine-grained proportional-share
> fair-group scheduling.
>                                 2. More accurate SMP fairness
>                                 3. Hard limit
>                                 4. SCHED_FIFO type policy for groups
>                                 5. Improved statistics and debug facility
> for group scheduler
>                 io controller
>                         users and requirements:
>                                 1. At a talk presented to the Linux
> Foundation
>                                 (OSDL), the attendees showed interest in
> an IO
>                                 controller to control IO bandwidth of
> various
>                                 filesystem operations (backup,
> journalling,
>                                 etc)
>                         work items:
>                                 1. Proof of concept IO controller and
> community discussion/feedback
>                                 2. Development and Integration of the IO
> controller with containers
>                         open issues
>                                 1. Automatic tagging/resource
> classification engine
>
>
>         5. checkpoint/restart
>                 memory c/r
>                         (there are a few designs and prototypes)
>                         (though this may be ironed out by then)
>                         per-container swapfile?
>                 overall checkpoint strategy  (one of:)
>                         in-kernel
>                         userspace-driven
>                         hybrid
>                 overall restart strategy
>                 use freezer API
>                 use suspend-to-disk?
>                 sysvipc
>                         "set identifier" syscall
>                 pid namespace
>                         clone_with_pid()
>                 live migration
>
>
> ======================  Section 3  ======================
> =Use cases
> ======================  Section 3  ======================
>
>         1, Namespaces:
>
>         The most commonly listed uses for namespaces are virtual
>         servers and checkpoint restart.  Other uses are debugging
>         (running tests in not-quite-virtual-servers) and resource
>         isolation, such as the use of mounts namespaces to simulate
>         multi-level directories for LSPP.
>
>         2. Task Containers:
>
>         (Vatsa to fill in)
>
>         3. Checkpoint/restart
>
>         load balancing:
>         applications can be migrated from high-load systems to ones
>         with a lower load.  Long-running applications can be checkpointed
>         (or migrated) to start a short-running high-load job, then
>         restarted.
>
>         kernel upgrades:
>         A long-running application - or whole virtual server - can
>         be migrated or checkpointed so that the system can be
>         rebooted, and the application can continue to run
>
>
> ======================  Section 4  ======================
> =Involved parties
> ======================  Section 4  ======================
>
> In the list of stakeholders, I try to guess based on past comments and
> contributions what *general* area they are most likely to contribute in.
> I may try to narrow those down later, but am just trying to get something
> out the door right now before my next computer breaks.
>
> Stakeholders:
>         Eric Biederman
>                 everything
>         google
>                 task containers
>         ibm (serge, dave, cedric, daniel)
>                 namespaces
>                 checkpoint/restart
>         bull (benjamin, pierre)
>                 namespaces
>                 checkpoint/restart
>         ibm (balbir, vatsa)
>                 task containers
>         kerlabs
>                 checkpoint/restart
>         openvz
>                 everything
>         NEC Japan (Masahiko Takahashi)
>                 checkpoint/restart
>         Linux-VServer
>                 namespaces+containers
>         zap project
>                 checkpoint/restart
>         planetlab
>                 everything
>         hp
>                 network namespaces, virtual servers?
>         XtreemOS
>                 checkpoint/restart
>         Fujitsu/VA Linux Japan
>                 resource control
>         BLCR (Paul H. Hargrove)
>                 checkpoint/restart
>
> Is anyone else still missing from the list?
>
> thanks,
> -serge
>
>

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Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Alasdair G Kergon]

We are still hoping to have a speaker phone set up - you may want to prepare
and distribute a dial-in number.  

Alasdair
-- 
agk-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Eric W. Biederman]

"Kirill Kolyshkin" <kolyshkin-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> So, this is just to confirm the final details about container mini-summit which
> will be held tomorrow.
>
> Time: starting at 9am 3th Sept.
> Place: Cambridge's University Arms Hotel, room Churchill D.
>
>
> Let's meet at the hotel lobby close to 9am and when go to the room.
>
> Eric, Paul,
> Can you please clarify whether will you be able to present or not?

Not physically.   I might be able to dial in if that is available,
depends on how much I adjust my sleep schedule today before my trip.
I won't be present physically until sometime on the 4th. 

Eric

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Paul Menage]

On 9/2/07, Kirill Kolyshkin <kolyshkin-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Eric, Paul,
> Can you please clarify whether will you be able to present or not?
>

I'll be dialling in or on Skype, depending on what's available.

Paul

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Srivatsa Vaddagiri]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 11:49:54PM +0100, Kirill Kolyshkin wrote:
> So, this is just to confirm the final details about container
> mini-summit which will be held tomorrow.

I am planning to attend this on phone (along with Dhaval and Vaidya from
IBM).

-- 
Regards,
vatsa

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Srivatsa Vaddagiri]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 11:49:54PM +0100, Kirill Kolyshkin wrote:
> So, this is just to confirm the final details about container
> mini-summit which will be held tomorrow.
> 
> Time: starting at 9am 3th Sept.
> Place: Cambridge's University Arms Hotel, room Churchill D.

Hi Kirill,
	What's the callin details for this conference?

Regards,
vatsa

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Cedric Le Goater]

Hello !

Cedric Le Goater wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> Some of us will meet next week for the first mini-summit on containers.
> Many thanks to Alasdair Kergon and LCE for the help they provided in 
> making this mini-summit happen !
> 
> It will be help on Monday the 3rd of September from 9:00 to 12:45 at LCE
> in room D. We also might get a phone line for external participants and, 
> if not, we should be able to set up a skype phone.
> 
> Here's a first try for the Agenda. 
> 
> Global items 
> 
> 	 [ let's try to defer discussion after presentation ]  
> 
> * Pavel Emelianov status update 

slides are available here :

	http://download.openvz.org/~xemul/minisummit.odp

thanks,

C.

> * Serge E. Hallyn Container Roadmap including  
> 	. task containers (Paul Menage)
> 	. resource management (Srivatsa Vaddagiri) 
> 
> Special items
> 
> 	[ brainstorm sessions which we would like to focus on ]
> 
> * builing the global container object ('a la' openvz or vserver)
> * container user space tools
> * container checkpoint/restart  
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> C.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Containers mailing list
> Containers-cunTk1MwBs9QetFLy7KEm3xJsTq8ys+cHZ5vskTnxNA@public.gmane.org
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/containers

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Paul Menage]

On 9/3/07, Cedric Le Goater <clg-NmTC/0ZBporQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>         http://download.openvz.org/~xemul/minisummit.odp
>

I notice ?s against "Task scheduler" and "Network scheduler".

Is "Task scheduler" meant to represent "CPU scheduler" or "task count
limit". If the former, CFS in the mainline should provide a lot of
what we need, and has already been linked with task containers by
Srivatsa Vaddagiri.

Network scheduling is already fairly advanced in Linux - all we need
is a way to be able to feed container information into existing Linux
traffic control concepts. We've played with an approach that lets us
tag a container with a particular id, and then use that id as the
primary classifier in a standard HTB controller, and it seems to be
fairly successful.

Paul

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Pavel Emelyanov]

Paul Menage wrote:
> On 9/3/07, Cedric Le Goater <clg-NmTC/0ZBporQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>         http://download.openvz.org/~xemul/minisummit.odp
>>
> 
> I notice ?s against "Task scheduler" and "Network scheduler".
> 
> Is "Task scheduler" meant to represent "CPU scheduler" or "task count
> limit". If the former, CFS in the mainline should provide a lot of
> what we need, and has already been linked with task containers by
> Srivatsa Vaddagiri.

Yes, task scheduler is the CPU scheduler.

> Network scheduling is already fairly advanced in Linux - all we need
> is a way to be able to feed container information into existing Linux
> traffic control concepts. We've played with an approach that lets us
> tag a container with a particular id, and then use that id as the
> primary classifier in a standard HTB controller, and it seems to be
> fairly successful.
> 
> Paul
> 

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Paul Menage]

On 9/3/07, Pavel Emelyanov <xemul-GEFAQzZX7r8dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Yes, task scheduler is the CPU scheduler.

OK. Am I right in thinking that CFS is expected to provide most of the
CPU scheduler support that we need, when enhanced with Vatsa's group
scheduling patches?

Paul

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Pavel Emelyanov]

Paul Menage wrote:
> On 9/3/07, Pavel Emelyanov <xemul-GEFAQzZX7r8dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Yes, task scheduler is the CPU scheduler.
> 
> OK. Am I right in thinking that CFS is expected to provide most of the
> CPU scheduler support that we need, when enhanced with Vatsa's group
> scheduling patches?

I hope so :)

> Paul
> 

Re: [RFC] Container mini-summit agenda for Sept 3, 2007

[Srivatsa Vaddagiri]

On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 02:48:23AM -0700, Paul Menage wrote:
> OK. Am I right in thinking that CFS is expected to provide most of the
> CPU scheduler support that we need, when enhanced with Vatsa's group
> scheduling patches?

CFS pretty much provides the core logic to fairly divide the cpu as per
the weight of each group. One complication is with respect to SMP
load balance, to ensure that each group gets its fair share on all the
cpus put together. 

We have been experimenting with few ideas on the smp group fairness and expect
to send out the patches to Andrew in a week or two.

-- 
Regards,
vatsa