BTS overhaul

BTS overhaul

[Robert Millan]

Hi!

I'd like to overhaul the GRUB BTS in Savannah so that it can be used to
track bugs in (or feature requests for) GRUB 2.

What I propose to do is review all bugs, and:

  - If the bug is obviously specific to GRUB Legacy, close it.
  - If the bug was found in GRUB Legacy, but might apply to GRUB 2,
    prompt the submitter to reproduce it there (and close it).

I don't think the BTS in its current state is any useful to us; patches
and bug reports are currently overwhelming the mailing list, which make
it less useful for actual discussion.

Comments?

-- 
Robert Millan

<GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call!
<DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
(as seen on /.)

Re: BTS overhaul

[Robert Millan]

No response?  Does anybody object if I proceed?

On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 01:01:23PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I'd like to overhaul the GRUB BTS in Savannah so that it can be used to
> track bugs in (or feature requests for) GRUB 2.
> 
> What I propose to do is review all bugs, and:
> 
>   - If the bug is obviously specific to GRUB Legacy, close it.
>   - If the bug was found in GRUB Legacy, but might apply to GRUB 2,
>     prompt the submitter to reproduce it there (and close it).
> 
> I don't think the BTS in its current state is any useful to us; patches
> and bug reports are currently overwhelming the mailing list, which make
> it less useful for actual discussion.
> 
> Comments?

-- 
Robert Millan

<GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call!
<DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
(as seen on /.)

Re: BTS overhaul

[Bean]

On Dec 12, 2007 10:37 PM, Robert Millan <rmh@aybabtu.com> wrote:
>
> No response?  Does anybody object if I proceed?
>

This is a very good idea, many old items are inappropriate anyway.

-- 
Bean

Re: BTS overhaul

[Jordi Mallach]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 03:37:28PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
> No response?  Does anybody object if I proceed?

Did anyone comment on the trac-based solution I mentioned? If someone
did, I missed it, sorry.

-- 
Jordi Mallach Pérez  --  Debian developer     http://www.debian.org/
jordi@sindominio.net     jordi@debian.org     http://www.sindominio.net/
GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/

Re: BTS overhaul

[Yoshinori K. Okuji]

On Wednesday 12 December 2007 15:37, Robert Millan wrote:
> No response?  Does anybody object if I proceed?

No problem for me.

Okuji

Re: BTS overhaul

[Robert Millan]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 05:51:17PM +0100, Jordi Mallach wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 03:37:28PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
> > No response?  Does anybody object if I proceed?
> 
> Did anyone comment on the trac-based solution I mentioned? If someone
> did, I missed it, sorry.

My comment was:

> We had this discussion before.  See:
> 
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/grub-devel/2007-06/msg00208.html
> 
> And:
> 
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/grub-devel/2007-07/msg00086.html
>   (funny that we all forget things so easily ;-))
> 
> I think Okuji makes valid points.  How about using the tracker in savannah?
> 
> It's certainly better than using the mailing list as a bug tracker ;-)

Even if we decide to switch to trac in the future, the BTS in savannah is
rotting right now and needs a serious cleanup.

-- 
Robert Millan

<GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call!
<DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
(as seen on /.)

Re: BTS overhaul

[Marco Gerards]

Jordi Mallach <jordi@gnu.org> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 03:37:28PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
>> No response?  Does anybody object if I proceed?
>
> Did anyone comment on the trac-based solution I mentioned? If someone
> did, I missed it, sorry.

No, the reaction to from Okuji was that if we have a bugtracker, it
needs to be available.  So if one of us sets up a bugtracker, we have
no guarantee about availability.  With savannah we have this.

--
Marco

BTS for GRUB 2 (Re: BTS overhaul)

[Robert Millan]

The creature has been seized:

  http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?group=grub

I've left the bugs that apply to documentation since we'll probably reuse
much of GRUB Legacy's and they will still apply.

Finally the BTS is usable for keeping track of GRUB 2 stuff.

Two thoughts:

  - The website still prompts to send GRUB 2 queries to grub-devel,
  should we adjust that to make them use the BTS?

  - The BTS sends bug notifications to bug-grub.  Rather than moving those
  to this list, perhaps it'd be a good idea to claim bug-grub for GRUB 2
  (and move GRUB Legacy queries to /dev/full), so that bug tracking (which
  tends to be quite verbose) is separate and this list can be used for
  general discussion more confortably.

What do you think?

-- 
Robert Millan

<GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call!
<DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
(as seen on /.)

Re: BTS for GRUB 2 (Re: BTS overhaul)

[Vesa Jääskeläinen]

Robert Millan wrote:
> The creature has been seized:
> 
>   http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?group=grub
> 
> I've left the bugs that apply to documentation since we'll probably reuse
> much of GRUB Legacy's and they will still apply.
> 
> Finally the BTS is usable for keeping track of GRUB 2 stuff.
> 
> Two thoughts:
> 
>   - The website still prompts to send GRUB 2 queries to grub-devel,
>   should we adjust that to make them use the BTS?

Yes. And for grub legacy users (and version info what is grub legacy)
there should be note that these are no longer being processed or
something like that.

>   - The BTS sends bug notifications to bug-grub.  Rather than moving those
>   to this list, perhaps it'd be a good idea to claim bug-grub for GRUB 2
>   (and move GRUB Legacy queries to /dev/full), so that bug tracking (which
>   tends to be quite verbose) is separate and this list can be used for
>   general discussion more confortably.
> 
> What do you think?

I think now would be good spot to re-configure mailing lists :)

bug-grub@ sounds like a bug list.
grub-devel@ sound link a development list.

grub-help@ or grub-users@ would be more fit for user discussions. Are
there any GNU "standards" for these? And perhaps require to switch to
subscribe only lists.

I think it is important to get notification about new bugs, so some
feedback is needed, but this does not necessary need to be discussion
list. I think that this is like commit-grub list is for information
about changes in reposity.

Re: BTS for GRUB 2 (Re: BTS overhaul)

[Robert Millan]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2007 at 12:27:03PM +0200, Vesa Jääskeläinen wrote:
> Robert Millan wrote:
> > The creature has been seized:
> > 
> >   http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?group=grub
> > 
> > I've left the bugs that apply to documentation since we'll probably reuse
> > much of GRUB Legacy's and they will still apply.
> > 
> > Finally the BTS is usable for keeping track of GRUB 2 stuff.
> > 
> > Two thoughts:
> > 
> >   - The website still prompts to send GRUB 2 queries to grub-devel,
> >   should we adjust that to make them use the BTS?
> 
> Yes. And for grub legacy users (and version info what is grub legacy)
> there should be note that these are no longer being processed or
> something like that.

Ok then.  I suggest that we move grub-legacy-bugs.en.html to
grub-2-bugs.en.html, and create a new grub-legacy-bugs.en.html prompting
reporters to try reproduce their problem in GRUB 2 (if they have a problem)
or update their patches to GRUB 2.

> >   - The BTS sends bug notifications to bug-grub.  Rather than moving those
> >   to this list, perhaps it'd be a good idea to claim bug-grub for GRUB 2
> >   (and move GRUB Legacy queries to /dev/full), so that bug tracking (which
> >   tends to be quite verbose) is separate and this list can be used for
> >   general discussion more confortably.
> > 
> > What do you think?
> 
> I think now would be good spot to re-configure mailing lists :)
> 
> bug-grub@ sounds like a bug list.
> grub-devel@ sound link a development list.

Good.  I'm subscribing to bug-grub then.

Another question is, how will we do context reply for patches?  The BTS doesn't
seem to easily allow this.  Maybe we could followup on our replies via
bug-grub ?  But a problem with that is that it'll be hard to see the full
context of a discussion when browsing bugs.

Another problem is that submitter is likely not subscribed to bug-grub (does
the message you get when trying to write there without being subscribed say you
have to subscribe, or that you have to wait for someone to process your mail
(which won't happen) ?).

> grub-help@ or grub-users@ would be more fit for user discussions. Are
> there any GNU "standards" for these? And perhaps require to switch to
> subscribe only lists.

The convention in GNU projects is to call them "help-$project".

-- 
Robert Millan

<GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call!
<DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
(as seen on /.)

Re: BTS for GRUB 2 (Re: BTS overhaul)

[Robert Millan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 951 bytes --]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2007 at 12:02:35PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
> > >   - The website still prompts to send GRUB 2 queries to grub-devel,
> > >   should we adjust that to make them use the BTS?
> > 
> > Yes. And for grub legacy users (and version info what is grub legacy)
> > there should be note that these are no longer being processed or
> > something like that.
> 
> Ok then.  I suggest that we move grub-legacy-bugs.en.html to
> grub-2-bugs.en.html, and create a new grub-legacy-bugs.en.html prompting
> reporters to try reproduce their problem in GRUB 2 (if they have a problem)
> or update their patches to GRUB 2.

I propose the attached patch.  Don't pay much attention to the
grub-2-bugs.en.html part;  it's simply copiing what we had in
grub-legacy-bugs.en.html with a s/Legacy/2/g in the title.

-- 
Robert Millan

<GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call!
<DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
(as seen on /.)

[-- Attachment #2: bts.diff --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 4818 bytes --]

Index: grub-2-bugs.en.html
===================================================================
RCS file: /web/grub/grub/grub-2-bugs.en.html,v
retrieving revision 1.14
diff -u -p -r1.14 grub-2-bugs.en.html
--- grub-2-bugs.en.html	4 Jun 2006 17:04:46 -0000	1.14
+++ grub-2-bugs.en.html	16 Dec 2007 11:12:31 -0000
@@ -8,7 +8,7 @@
 <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="grub.css"
 media="screen" title="grub css" />
 <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="print.css" media="print" />
-<title>GNU GRUB - Bug Reports</title>
+<title>GNU GRUB - GRUB 2 Bugs</title>
 </head>
 <body>
 <div id="wrap">
@@ -47,12 +47,49 @@ media="screen" title="grub css" />
 <div id="content">
 <!-- end header -->
 
+
 <h1>Bug Reports</h1>
-<p>
-GRUB 2 is under very active development, so bugs are handled in the 
-developers' list <grub-devel@gnu.org> at the moment. Since this list is 
-a members-only list, please subscribe to it then send e-mail to this 
-list.
+
+<P>
+NOTE: For general information on how to report bugs,
+<A HREF="http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html">How to
+Report Bugs Effectively</A>
+is worth reading.
+</P>
+
+<P>
+When you encounter a problem or a bug, check if the
+<A HREF="http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?group=grub">Bug Tracking System</A>
+stores the same problem.
+Also, take a look at the <A HREF="grub-faq.en.html">GNU GRUB FAQ</A>.
+This may have a useful suggestion about your problem.
+</P>
+
+<P>
+If you didn't find information about your problem, read the chapter
+<EM>Reporting bugs</EM> in <A HREF="/software/grub/manual/">the manual</A>.
+Very often, people ask us their questions with little or even no
+information about their systems. That's quite useless, because we have
+to <EM>guess</EM> what you did, what was displayed and what really
+happened. Please notice that we may not see your computer directly. So,
+whenever you report a bug, you must include enough information so that
+we can understand what happened and even reproduce your problem in our
+own machines.
+
+</P>
+
+<P>
+Once you have realized how to write a bug report, please submit it to the
+<A HREF="http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?group=grub">Bug Tracking System</A>
+with information about your computer and what you did
+<EM>as much as possible</EM>. Excessive information is always better than
+no information.
+</P>
+
+<P>
+If you prefer using electronic mail, you can submit a report to the mailing
+list &lt;bug-grub@gnu.org&gt;.
+</P>
 
 
 
Index: grub-legacy-bugs.en.html
===================================================================
RCS file: /web/grub/grub/grub-legacy-bugs.en.html,v
retrieving revision 1.13
diff -u -p -r1.13 grub-legacy-bugs.en.html
--- grub-legacy-bugs.en.html	4 Jun 2006 17:04:46 -0000	1.13
+++ grub-legacy-bugs.en.html	16 Dec 2007 11:12:31 -0000
@@ -51,48 +51,16 @@ media="screen" title="grub css" />
 <h1>Bug Reports</h1>
 
 <P>
-NOTE: For general information on how to report bugs,
-<A HREF="http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html">How to
-Report Bugs Effectively</A>
-is worth reading.
+Support for filing bug reports on GRUB Legacy has been discontinued.  Please, check
+if you can reproduce your problem with GRUB 2, or if the feature you want is already
+present in GRUB 2.  Then report it as a <a href="grub-2-bugs.en.html">GRUB 2 bug</a>
+if it still applies.
 </P>
 
 <P>
-When you encounter a problem or a bug, check if the
-<A HREF="http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?group=grub">Bug Tracking System</A>
-stores the same problem.
-Also, take a look at the <A HREF="grub-faq.en.html">GNU GRUB FAQ</A>.
-This may have a useful suggestion about your problem.
+Additionally, if you were providing a patch please update it to work on GRUB 2.
 </P>
 
-<P>
-If you didn't find information about your problem, read the chapter
-<EM>Reporting bugs</EM> in <A HREF="/software/grub/manual/">the manual</A>.
-Very often, people ask us their questions with little or even no
-information about their systems. That's quite useless, because we have
-to <EM>guess</EM> what you did, what was displayed and what really
-happened. Please notice that we may not see your computer directly. So,
-whenever you report a bug, you must include enough information so that
-we can understand what happened and even reproduce your problem in our
-own machines.
-
-</P>
-
-<P>
-Once you have realized how to write a bug report, please submit it to the
-<A HREF="http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?group=grub">Bug Tracking System</A>
-with information about your computer and what you did
-<EM>as much as possible</EM>. Excessive information is always better than
-no information.
-</P>
-
-<P>
-If you prefer using electronic mail, you can submit a report to the mailing
-list &lt;bug-grub@gnu.org&gt;.
-</P>
-
-
-
 <!-- begin footer -->
 <div class="copyright">
 <p>

Re: BTS for GRUB 2 (Re: BTS overhaul)

[Vesa Jääskeläinen]

Robert Millan wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 16, 2007 at 12:02:35PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
>>>>   - The website still prompts to send GRUB 2 queries to grub-devel,
>>>>   should we adjust that to make them use the BTS?
>>> Yes. And for grub legacy users (and version info what is grub legacy)
>>> there should be note that these are no longer being processed or
>>> something like that.
>> Ok then.  I suggest that we move grub-legacy-bugs.en.html to
>> grub-2-bugs.en.html, and create a new grub-legacy-bugs.en.html prompting
>> reporters to try reproduce their problem in GRUB 2 (if they have a problem)
>> or update their patches to GRUB 2.
> 
> I propose the attached patch.  Don't pay much attention to the
> grub-2-bugs.en.html part;  it's simply copiing what we had in
> grub-legacy-bugs.en.html with a s/Legacy/2/g in the title.

There is also this page that needs a change:
https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?func=additem&group=grub

Re: BTS for GRUB 2 (Re: BTS overhaul)

[Robert Millan]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2007 at 01:22:44PM +0200, Vesa Jääskeläinen wrote:
> Robert Millan wrote:
> > On Sun, Dec 16, 2007 at 12:02:35PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
> >>>>   - The website still prompts to send GRUB 2 queries to grub-devel,
> >>>>   should we adjust that to make them use the BTS?
> >>> Yes. And for grub legacy users (and version info what is grub legacy)
> >>> there should be note that these are no longer being processed or
> >>> something like that.
> >> Ok then.  I suggest that we move grub-legacy-bugs.en.html to
> >> grub-2-bugs.en.html, and create a new grub-legacy-bugs.en.html prompting
> >> reporters to try reproduce their problem in GRUB 2 (if they have a problem)
> >> or update their patches to GRUB 2.
> > 
> > I propose the attached patch.  Don't pay much attention to the
> > grub-2-bugs.en.html part;  it's simply copiing what we had in
> > grub-legacy-bugs.en.html with a s/Legacy/2/g in the title.

Committed.

> There is also this page that needs a change:
> https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?func=additem&group=grub

Marco fixed that.

-- 
Robert Millan

<GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call!
<DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
(as seen on /.)

Re: BTS overhaul

[Jordi Mallach]

On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 02:14:30PM +0100, Marco Gerards wrote:
> No, the reaction to from Okuji was that if we have a bugtracker, it
> needs to be available.  So if one of us sets up a bugtracker, we have
> no guarantee about availability.  With savannah we have this.

Well, Savannah isn't free of downtimes or problems. I mean, there are
community development places like Savannah, Gna! or Alioth only based on
trac.

But don't make me wrong, I'm not personally interested in this at all, I
was just making sure the suggestion did get to the right people. Now
that tne BTS is clean, I guess it'll be good enough.

-- 
Jordi Mallach Pérez  --  Debian developer     http://www.debian.org/
jordi@sindominio.net     jordi@debian.org     http://www.sindominio.net/
GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/

Re: BTS for GRUB 2 (Re: BTS overhaul)

[Yoshinori K. Okuji]

On Sunday 16 December 2007 11:27, Vesa Jääskeläinen wrote:
> grub-help@ or grub-users@ would be more fit for user discussions. Are
> there any GNU "standards" for these? And perhaps require to switch to
> subscribe only lists.

This might be the third time to say this, but...

help-grub is already effective. For now, it is just an alias to bug-grub. But 
I can request the sysadmin to make a separate one, if necessary.

Okuji

Re: BTS for GRUB 2 (Re: BTS overhaul)

[Yoshinori K. Okuji]

On Sunday 16 December 2007 12:02, Robert Millan wrote:
> Another question is, how will we do context reply for patches?  The BTS
> doesn't seem to easily allow this.  Maybe we could followup on our replies
> via bug-grub ?  But a problem with that is that it'll be hard to see the
> full context of a discussion when browsing bugs.

This was exactly what I didn't like with (most) bug trackers...

Does the Patch Tracker provide any useful feature to this? When I looked at 
this, it was no different from the Bug Tracker, so I simply disabled it. But 
this was some years ago.

> Another problem is that submitter is likely not subscribed to bug-grub
> (does the message you get when trying to write there without being
> subscribed say you have to subscribe, or that you have to wait for someone
> to process your mail (which won't happen) ?).

It might be possible to configure the mailman to push through email from 
savannah.

Okuji

Re: BTS for GRUB 2 (Re: BTS overhaul)

[Marco Gerards]

"Yoshinori K. Okuji" <okuji@enbug.org> writes:

> On Sunday 16 December 2007 11:27, Vesa Jääskeläinen wrote:
>> grub-help@ or grub-users@ would be more fit for user discussions. Are
>> there any GNU "standards" for these? And perhaps require to switch to
>> subscribe only lists.
>
> This might be the third time to say this, but...
>
> help-grub is already effective. For now, it is just an alias to bug-grub. But 
> I can request the sysadmin to make a separate one, if necessary.

This seems to be what most people would like...

--
Marco