[KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Randy Dunlap]

Robert is doing a nice job of updating (one of the) KJ wikis at
http://www.fsdev.dreamhosters.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kernel_Janitor%27s_Todo_List

However, now we have this one and the KJ/kernelnewbies hosted wiki:
http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo

so why wasn't the latter one used/updated instead?

It looks to me like
(a) we need to take some action to revitalize the KJ project
and
(b) we need to use a wiki to track projects.

I'm not saying that these are directly related.
And I want to thank Chris Miller for making his wiki available.

comments?  Additions to my short list?

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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Jaco Kroon]

Randy Dunlap wrote:
> Robert is doing a nice job of updating (one of the) KJ wikis at
> http://www.fsdev.dreamhosters.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kernel_Janitor%27s_Todo_List
> 
> However, now we have this one and the KJ/kernelnewbies hosted wiki:
> http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo
>
> so why wasn't the latter one used/updated instead?

At the top of the page:  Immutable Page

... not sure actually, it could just be a lack of knowledge, or it could
be that it's a pain to maintain in the wiki software used there, I
really don't know.

> It looks to me like
> (a) we need to take some action to revitalize the KJ project
> and
> (b) we need to use a wiki to track projects.

I'll agree with both.

> I'm not saying that these are directly related.
> And I want to thank Chris Miller for making his wiki available.
> 
> comments?  Additions to my short list?

Perhaps one suggestion, and this is based purely on personal preference,
but just "move" the wiki created by Chris to replace the other one.  I
really think the MediaWiki interface is a nice one, and it's a
well-maintained project in itself (wikipedia uses it and pushes it's
development).  It's pretty skinable if somebody wants to sit down and
give it the KJ site look & feel ... most people don't really bother as
they are mostly after the content factor anyway.

Note: From hard experience I've learned that Wiki SPAM is just as bad
(if not worse than) email-borne SPAM.  AVOID AT ALL COST!  And no,
captchas simply does not stop spammers.

(btw, about half of the spam that now lands in my inbox comes via this
mailing list, is anybody else also experiencing an escalation of spam
coming in from this list?)

Jaco
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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Randy Dunlap]

On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:15:29 +0200 Jaco Kroon wrote:

> Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > Robert is doing a nice job of updating (one of the) KJ wikis at
> > http://www.fsdev.dreamhosters.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kernel_Janitor%27s_Todo_List
> > 
> > However, now we have this one and the KJ/kernelnewbies hosted wiki:
> > http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo
> >
> > so why wasn't the latter one used/updated instead?
> 
> At the top of the page:  Immutable Page

You just need to login and you'll be able to edit...
(cuts down on wiki spam -- maybe)


> ... not sure actually, it could just be a lack of knowledge, or it could
> be that it's a pain to maintain in the wiki software used there, I
> really don't know.
> 
> > It looks to me like
> > (a) we need to take some action to revitalize the KJ project
> > and
> > (b) we need to use a wiki to track projects.
> 
> I'll agree with both.
> 
> > I'm not saying that these are directly related.
> > And I want to thank Chris Miller for making his wiki available.
> > 
> > comments?  Additions to my short list?
> 
> Perhaps one suggestion, and this is based purely on personal preference,
> but just "move" the wiki created by Chris to replace the other one.  I
> really think the MediaWiki interface is a nice one, and it's a
> well-maintained project in itself (wikipedia uses it and pushes it's
> development).  It's pretty skinable if somebody wants to sit down and
> give it the KJ site look & feel ... most people don't really bother as
> they are mostly after the content factor anyway.
> 
> Note: From hard experience I've learned that Wiki SPAM is just as bad
> (if not worse than) email-borne SPAM.  AVOID AT ALL COST!  And no,
> captchas simply does not stop spammers.

who/what are captchas?

> (btw, about half of the spam that now lands in my inbox comes via this
> mailing list, is anybody else also experiencing an escalation of spam
> coming in from this list?)

I see an escalation from everywhere. :(

Thanks.
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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Chris Miller]

On 1/31/07, Jaco Kroon <jaco@kroon.co.za> wrote:> Randy Dunlap wrote:> > Robert is doing a nice job of updating (one of the) KJ wikis at> > http://www.fsdev.dreamhosters.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kernel_Janitor%27s_Todo_List> >> > However, now we have this one and the KJ/kernelnewbies hosted wiki:> > http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo> >> > so why wasn't the latter one used/updated instead?>> At the top of the page:  Immutable Page>> ... not sure actually, it could just be a lack of knowledge, or it could> be that it's a pain to maintain in the wiki software used there, I> really don't know.
My excuse is lack of knowledge.  I didn't know there was a wiki there.
> > It looks to me like> > (a) we need to take some action to revitalize the KJ project> > and> > (b) we need to use a wiki to track projects.>> I'll agree with both.>> > I'm not saying that these are directly related.> > And I want to thank Chris Miller for making his wiki available.
No problem.
> > comments?  Additions to my short list?>> Perhaps one suggestion, and this is based purely on personal preference,> but just "move" the wiki created by Chris to replace the other one.  I> really think the MediaWiki interface is a nice one, and it's a> well-maintained project in itself (wikipedia uses it and pushes it's> development).  It's pretty skinable if somebody wants to sit down and> give it the KJ site look & feel ... most people don't really bother as> they are mostly after the content factor anyway.
Might even be worthwhile to remove that gigantic picture in thebackground one of these days.  It doesn't do anything for me otherthan irk my sense of bandwidth-conservation.
If you want to move the wiki just ask me and you can have a fullsnapshot of the whole SQL database and all the files associated.
> Note: From hard experience I've learned that Wiki SPAM is just as bad> (if not worse than) email-borne SPAM.  AVOID AT ALL COST!  And no,> captchas simply does not stop spammers.
Yes, I think you sent me a link about Wiki spam that I have yet toread (I'm planning on reading that this weekend).
> (btw, about half of the spam that now lands in my inbox comes via this> mailing list, is anybody else also experiencing an escalation of spam> coming in from this list?)
Yes, I am experiencing that.
From my experience administering the Linux Users Group on GoogleGroups the practise of requiring an adminstrator to approve new usersbefore they can post or moderating new posts for the first few daysworks quite well.  The LUG admins see quite a bit of spam (and somereally funny things as well) but the group itself gets a reducedamount of spam (none) that I think really improves the communityatmosphere.
Just my experiences.
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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Wed, 2007-01-31 at 14:48 -0800, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:15:29 +0200 Jaco Kroon wrote:
[...]
> > Note: From hard experience I've learned that Wiki SPAM is just as bad
> > (if not worse than) email-borne SPAM.  AVOID AT ALL COST!  And no,
> > captchas simply does not stop spammers.
> 
> who/what are captchas?

The numbers and/or letters somewhat stretched in several directions with
a quite random background where people are (supposed to be) able to read
them quite easily (and copy them into some input field) and machines
cannot easily decode them.
In short: a test if there is a human in front of the webpage.

> > (btw, about half of the spam that now lands in my inbox comes via this
> > mailing list, is anybody else also experiencing an escalation of spam
> > coming in from this list?)
> 
> I see an escalation from everywhere. :(

ACK.

	Bernd
-- 
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          Embedded Linux Development and Services

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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Jaco Kroon]

Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-01-31 at 14:48 -0800, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> 
>>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:15:29 +0200 Jaco Kroon wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>>Note: From hard experience I've learned that Wiki SPAM is just as bad
>>>(if not worse than) email-borne SPAM.  AVOID AT ALL COST!  And no,
>>>captchas simply does not stop spammers.
>>
>>who/what are captchas?
> 
> 
> The numbers and/or letters somewhat stretched in several directions with
> a quite random background where people are (supposed to be) able to read
> them quite easily (and copy them into some input field) and machines
> cannot easily decode them.
> In short: a test if there is a human in front of the webpage.

Correct, but in many cases OCR software can decipher them, and when that
isn't simple enough a human spammer can solve them at around a captcha
every 5 seconds, stil allowing a spammer to do about 20 posts per
minute, permitting he's willing to sit there the whole day and solve
captchas.  Or man-in-the-middle if he can construct a "popular" site on
which to represent the captchas to other people to solve.

>>>(btw, about half of the spam that now lands in my inbox comes via this
>>>mailing list, is anybody else also experiencing an escalation of spam
>>>coming in from this list?)
>>
>>I see an escalation from everywhere. :(
> 
> 
> ACK.

Yea, but my filters seem to be able to stop most of the other crap, so
perhaps I should rephrase, about half of the spam that actually makes it
to my inbox is via this list.  Oh, just btw, if I switch off all
filtering about 80 % of my incoming mail is spam, as it stands (after
filtering) I only get about 3 to 5 spams a day in my inbox, except when
some spammer goes totally balistic on the KJ mailing list in which case
it increases quite significantly.  I suspect this is due to the
spamassassin "autowhitelisting" features but I'm not 100 % sure.  That,
and much improved spamming techniques.

And yes, the amount of filtered spam has increased a lot recently, I'd
go almost as far as to say that it has doubled in the last 6 months.

Jaco
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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Chris Miller]

On 1/31/07, Jaco Kroon <jaco@kroon.co.za> wrote:> Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:> > On Wed, 2007-01-31 at 14:48 -0800, Randy Dunlap wrote:> >> >>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:15:29 +0200 Jaco Kroon wrote:> >> > [...]> >> >>>Note: From hard experience I've learned that Wiki SPAM is just as bad> >>>(if not worse than) email-borne SPAM.  AVOID AT ALL COST!  And no,> >>>captchas simply does not stop spammers.> >>> >>who/what are captchas?> >> >> > The numbers and/or letters somewhat stretched in several directions with> > a quite random background where people are (supposed to be) able to read> > them quite easily (and copy them into some input field) and machines> > cannot easily decode them.> > In short: a test if there is a human in front of the webpage.>> Correct, but in many cases OCR software can decipher them, and when that> isn't simple enough a human spammer can solve them at around a captcha> every 5 seconds, stil allowing a spammer to do about 20 posts per> minute, permitting he's willing to sit there the whole day and solve> captchas.  Or man-in-the-middle if he can construct a "popular" site on> which to represent the captchas to other people to solve.>> >>>(btw, about half of the spam that now lands in my inbox comes via this> >>>mailing list, is anybody else also experiencing an escalation of spam> >>>coming in from this list?)> >>> >>I see an escalation from everywhere. :(> >> >> > ACK.>> Yea, but my filters seem to be able to stop most of the other crap, so> perhaps I should rephrase, about half of the spam that actually makes it> to my inbox is via this list.  Oh, just btw, if I switch off all> filtering about 80 % of my incoming mail is spam, as it stands (after> filtering) I only get about 3 to 5 spams a day in my inbox, except when> some spammer goes totally balistic on the KJ mailing list in which case> it increases quite significantly.  I suspect this is due to the> spamassassin "autowhitelisting" features but I'm not 100 % sure.  That,> and much improved spamming techniques.>> And yes, the amount of filter
ed spam has increased a lot recently, I'd> go almost as far as to say that it has doubled in the last 6 months.
You're absolutely correct.  Read some of the archives from the SiliconValley Linux Users Group and you'll find hard statistics.  I don'thave time to select precise archived conversations for your review,however, about 6 months ago is when bot nets started becomingfrighteningly widespread.  I won't say more: there's more than enoughmaterial for you to read (SVLUG site is www.svlug.org)
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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Jaco Kroon wrote:

> Perhaps one suggestion, and this is based purely on personal
> preference, but just "move" the wiki created by Chris to replace the
> other one.

i'd rather you didn't.  there's still a lot of content in the original
ToDo list that isn't represented in the new wiki.

my rationale for creating that new wiki was that the content of the
original page wasn't organized very well.  mostly, it didn't seem to
have enough content for most topics for any janitor to know how to
tackle any task.  it makes mention of numerous issues, but without the
kind of detail that would let someone know whether this was a task
they could do.

a better approach would be to look at the content that's still at the
original page, and move it, issue by issue, to the new wiki, while
expanding on each of those issues, as is being done now.  i think that
would be much more productive.

in a sense, if you can't properly explain an outstanding issue in one
well-organized and comprehensible wiki page, you shouldn't be asking
janitors to try to clean it up for you.

rday

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====================================
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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Jaco Kroon wrote:

> Correct, but in many cases OCR software can decipher them, and when
> that isn't simple enough a human spammer can solve them at around a
> captcha every 5 seconds, stil allowing a spammer to do about 20
> posts per minute, permitting he's willing to sit there the whole day
> and solve captchas.  Or man-in-the-middle if he can construct a
> "popular" site on which to represent the captchas to other people to
> solve.

what about making the wiki *not* world-writable, in the sense of not
even allowing arbitrary people to register for accounts before they
start editing?

i realize that (sort of) defeats the purpose of a wiki but, really,
how many people plan on doing editing anyway?  the current ToDo list
is *totally* immutable.  perhaps we can find a middle ground where, if
you have a *legitimate* need to edit the wiki -- perhaps because
you're taking on a project -- then someone with the authority will
arrange for you to get an account.

it's not perfect, but it *would* stop the spammers, wouldn't it?

rday

-- 
====================================
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Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Jaco Kroon]

> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Jaco Kroon wrote:
>
>> Correct, but in many cases OCR software can decipher them, and when
>> that isn't simple enough a human spammer can solve them at around a
>> captcha every 5 seconds, stil allowing a spammer to do about 20
>> posts per minute, permitting he's willing to sit there the whole day
>> and solve captchas.  Or man-in-the-middle if he can construct a
>> "popular" site on which to represent the captchas to other people to
>> solve.
>
> what about making the wiki *not* world-writable, in the sense of not
> even allowing arbitrary people to register for accounts before they
> start editing?
>
> i realize that (sort of) defeats the purpose of a wiki but, really,
> how many people plan on doing editing anyway?  the current ToDo list
> is *totally* immutable.  perhaps we can find a middle ground where, if
> you have a *legitimate* need to edit the wiki -- perhaps because
> you're taking on a project -- then someone with the authority will
> arrange for you to get an account.
>
> it's not perfect, but it *would* stop the spammers, wouldn't it?

That is definitely one way, and not a totally unacceptable way imho, but
still too restrictive imho.  TLUG (Tuks Linux User Group) solved it as
described on http://tlug.up.ac.za/wiki/index.php/Dealing_with_SPAM ... it
seems to be pretty effective.

Jaco
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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Jaco Kroon wrote:

> rday wrote:

> > what about making the wiki *not* world-writable, in the sense of
> > not even allowing arbitrary people to register for accounts before
> > they start editing?
> >
> > i realize that (sort of) defeats the purpose of a wiki but,
> > really, how many people plan on doing editing anyway?  the current
> > ToDo list is *totally* immutable.  perhaps we can find a middle
> > ground where, if you have a *legitimate* need to edit the wiki --
> > perhaps because you're taking on a project -- then someone with
> > the authority will arrange for you to get an account.
> >
> > it's not perfect, but it *would* stop the spammers, wouldn't it?
>
> That is definitely one way, and not a totally unacceptable way imho,
> but still too restrictive imho.  TLUG (Tuks Linux User Group) solved
> it as described on
> http://tlug.up.ac.za/wiki/index.php/Dealing_with_SPAM ... it seems
> to be pretty effective.

just to be clear, i'm not trying to discourage people from wanting to
get involved with the wiki.  far from it -- i'd *love* it if others
stepped up and started adding content.

what i want to avoid is additional content starting to be just tossed
willy-nilly into arbitrary pages and losing the organization.  that
organizational structure is the primary reason i wanted to start the
wiki in the first place.

that's why i figured it wasn't a bad idea for people to explicitly
*request* to get an account.  you shouldn't offer to be a wiki
contributor unless you're prepared to contribute in an organized and
disciplined way.  just my $0.02.

rday

p.s.  another idea is to make *part* of the wiki world-writable, as a
scratchpad for people to toss out ideas, but make the formal pages
editable only by the wiki maintainers, or something like that.

whatever works.

-- 

====================================
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Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Randy Dunlap]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 04:16:39 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> 
> > Correct, but in many cases OCR software can decipher them, and when
> > that isn't simple enough a human spammer can solve them at around a
> > captcha every 5 seconds, stil allowing a spammer to do about 20
> > posts per minute, permitting he's willing to sit there the whole day
> > and solve captchas.  Or man-in-the-middle if he can construct a
> > "popular" site on which to represent the captchas to other people to
> > solve.
> 
> what about making the wiki *not* world-writable, in the sense of not
> even allowing arbitrary people to register for accounts before they
> start editing?
> 
> i realize that (sort of) defeats the purpose of a wiki but, really,
> how many people plan on doing editing anyway?  the current ToDo list
> is *totally* immutable.  perhaps we can find a middle ground where, if
> you have a *legitimate* need to edit the wiki -- perhaps because
> you're taking on a project -- then someone with the authority will
> arrange for you to get an account.

You are supposed to be able to edit the wiki at
http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo
just by registering there as a user...
Does that not work?
... yes, just register and login, then edit away.

> it's not perfect, but it *would* stop the spammers, wouldn't it?


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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Randy Dunlap]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:07:56 -0800 Chris Miller wrote:

> On 1/31/07, Jaco Kroon <jaco@kroon.co.za> wrote:> Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:> > On Wed, 2007-01-31 at 14:48 -0800, Randy Dunlap wrote:> >> >>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:15:29 +0200 Jaco Kroon wrote:> >> > [...]> >> >>>Note: From hard experience I've learned that Wiki SPAM is just as bad> >>>(if not worse than) email-borne SPAM.  AVOID AT ALL COST!  And no,> >>>captchas simply does not stop spammers.> >>> >>who/what are captchas?> >> >> > The numbers and/or letters somewhat stretched in several directions with> > a quite random background where people are (supposed to be) able to read> > them quite easily (and copy them into some input field) and machines> > cannot easily decode them.> > In short: a test if there is a human in front of the webpage.>> Correct, but in many cases OCR software can decipher them, and when that> isn't simple enough a human spammer can solve them at around a captcha> every 5 seconds, stil allowing a spammer to do about 20 posts per> minute, permitting he's willing to sit there the whole day and solve> captchas.  Or man-in-the-middle if he can construct a "popular" site on> which to represent the captchas to other people to solve.>> >>>(btw, about half of the spam that now lands in my inbox comes via this> >>>mailing list, is anybody else also experiencing an escalation of spam> >>>coming in from this list?)> >>> >>I see an escalation from everywhere. :(> >> >> > ACK.>> Yea, but my filters seem to be able to stop most of the other crap, so> perhaps I should rephrase, about half of the spam that actually makes it> to my inbox is via this list.  Oh, just btw, if I switch off all> filtering about 80 % of my incoming mail is spam, as it stands (after> filtering) I only get about 3 to 5 spams a day in my inbox, except when> some spammer goes totally balistic on the KJ mailing list in which case> it increases quite significantly.  I suspect this is due to the> spamassassin "autowhitelisting" features but I'm not 100 % sure.  That,> and much improved spamming techniques.>> And yes, the amount of filtered spam has increased a lot recently, I'd> go almost as far as to say that it has doubled in the last 6 months.
> You're absolutely correct.  Read some of the archives from the SiliconValley Linux Users Group and you'll find hard statistics.  I don'thave time to select precise archived conversations for your review,however, about 6 months ago is when bot nets started becomingfrighteningly widespread.  I won't say more: there's more than enoughmaterial for you to read (SVLUG site is www.svlug.org)


Does anyone else have trouble reading this?
Is it just my MUA?

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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:07:56 -0800 Chris Miller wrote:
>
> Does anyone else have trouble reading this?
> Is it just my MUA?

no, i'm suffering the same fate.  i've already mentioned it to chris.

rday

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====================================
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Re: [KJ] the current situation for the KJ wiki

[Alexey Dobriyan]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 09:23:26AM -0800, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 04:16:39 -0500 (EST) Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> > 
> > > Correct, but in many cases OCR software can decipher them, and when
> > > that isn't simple enough a human spammer can solve them at around a
> > > captcha every 5 seconds, stil allowing a spammer to do about 20
> > > posts per minute, permitting he's willing to sit there the whole day
> > > and solve captchas.  Or man-in-the-middle if he can construct a
> > > "popular" site on which to represent the captchas to other people to
> > > solve.
> > 
> > what about making the wiki *not* world-writable, in the sense of not
> > even allowing arbitrary people to register for accounts before they
> > start editing?
> > 
> > i realize that (sort of) defeats the purpose of a wiki but, really,
> > how many people plan on doing editing anyway?  the current ToDo list
> > is *totally* immutable.  perhaps we can find a middle ground where, if
> > you have a *legitimate* need to edit the wiki -- perhaps because
> > you're taking on a project -- then someone with the authority will
> > arrange for you to get an account.
> 
> You are supposed to be able to edit the wiki at
> http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelJanitors/Todo
> just by registering there as a user...
> Does that not work?
> ... yes, just register and login, then edit away.

Yes, this should work.

Answering original question: world-writeable wiki (after resigtration)
or HTML on CVS. Nicely laid out HTML with em-dashes, hyperlinks and
monotype font.


It seems that the only pro wikis in general have is that users don't
have to ping admin about every change. Once that is taken out... What
is left? Yet another braindamaged ML... Sorry, did you notice that

	{{{
		int foo;
	}}}

generates the following box

	+-----------------------+
	|	int foo;	|
	|			|
	+-----------------------+

So, if you want to make it exactly one line in heigth you have to
write original "code" as

	{{{
		int foo;}}}

Amazing, isn't it?

I'm again, sorry, but HTML isn't hard. If you only need hyperlinks,
lists, monotype font, normal font, sometimes red color, it's very
easy.

How exactly different H1, H2, ..., H6 tags are from

	------------
	======
	~~~~~~~~~~~~
	::::::::::::
	\\\\\\\\\\\\
	############

	Alexey "?" Dobriyan

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