moderation only by sender

moderation only by sender

[Henk Cortier]

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hi there, I'm new to mlmmj
We are using mlmmj as a newsletter tool for cultural events.

One mailing list has 14 moderators who all wish to be able to send and
moderate the mails they send out.

What we would like to avoid is that moderation mails are sent to all
moderators, ideally only the sender of the message should receive the
moderate mail and be able to reply to it.

Any ideas?

many thanks

Henk
melimato.com

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Re: moderation only by sender

[Mads Martin Jørgensen]

On 03/07/2009, at 22.33, Henk Cortier wrote:

> hi there, I'm new to mlmmj

Glad you're trying it :)

> We are using mlmmj as a newsletter tool for cultural events.

Not to be nosy, just out of pure interest; what kind of events?

> One mailing list has 14 moderators who all wish to be able to send  
> and moderate the mails they send out.
>
> What we would like to avoid is that moderation mails are sent to all  
> moderators, ideally only the sender of the message should receive  
> the moderate mail and be able to reply to it.
>
> Any ideas?


This functionality doesn't exist in mlmmj right now. BUT;

It would be quite easy to implement and if noone else cooks up a  
patch, I'll personally make one before Friday.

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
  and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                  -- A. P. J.

Re: moderation only by sender

[Henk Cortier]

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that would be great Mads, if I get it right this is all done in C and we're
not competent to alter anything.
I was afraid the project was a bit dead, no-one seems to be adding
much to it lately.

Of our (little) experience mlmmj has the best potential to become what
others have failed to become but it will need input from people like you.

When patches like this work, do they eventually go into the project? All the
patching makes installs difficult.

FYI: The cultural events go from theatre to dance and street art, check out
www.lacosta.cat and www.comedianet.com.  Based in Barcelona.
I am still investigating but I will share more of my findings/experiences as
a novice user to this mailing list.

g'night

Henk

2009/7/3 Mads Martin Jørgensen <mmj@mmj.dk>

>
> On 03/07/2009, at 22.33, Henk Cortier wrote:
>
>  hi there, I'm new to mlmmj
>>
>
> Glad you're trying it :)
>
>  We are using mlmmj as a newsletter tool for cultural events.
>>
>
> Not to be nosy, just out of pure interest; what kind of events?
>
>  One mailing list has 14 moderators who all wish to be able to send and
>> moderate the mails they send out.
>>
>> What we would like to avoid is that moderation mails are sent to all
>> moderators, ideally only the sender of the message should receive the
>> moderate mail and be able to reply to it.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>
>
> This functionality doesn't exist in mlmmj right now. BUT;
>
> It would be quite easy to implement and if noone else cooks up a patch,
> I'll personally make one before Friday.
>
> --
> Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
> "Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
>  and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
>                                 -- A. P. J.
>
>

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Re: moderation only by sender

[Thomas Goirand]

Henk Cortier wrote:
> Of our (little) experience mlmmj has the best potential to become what
> others have failed to become but it will need input from people like you.

Out of my a bit longer experience, MLMMJ is the best list manager I ever
used. Easy to use, extend, understand, configure, etc. And the project
IS active and well maintained, it's just that it gave you the impression
it was not active because in fact, it has already all the features one
might need, so it's hard to find something missing.

> When patches like this work, do they eventually go into the project? All
> the patching makes installs difficult.

They do if well written. Mads (and sometimes others) do code review of
patches, which is always a good thing as contributors might not see
things as they don't 100% know the project.

Thomas

Re: moderation only by sender

[Sebastian Harl]

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Hi,

On Fri, Jul 03, 2009 at 10:33:51PM +0200, Henk Cortier wrote:
> One mailing list has 14 moderators who all wish to be able to send and
> moderate the mails they send out.
> 
> What we would like to avoid is that moderation mails are sent to all
> moderators, ideally only the sender of the message should receive the
> moderate mail and be able to reply to it.

Hrm ... what about introducing some tunable to define a list of E-mail
addresses which are not moderated instead (or additionally)? Imho, it
does not make a lot of sense to moderate yourself - especially, if
you're the only one to even "know" about that.

Cheers,
Sebastian

-- 
Sebastian "tokkee" Harl +++ GnuPG-ID: 0x8501C7FC +++ http://tokkee.org/

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.         -- Benjamin Franklin


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Re: moderation only by sender

[Henk Cortier]

You can tune any address not to be moderated but to be accepted  
straight away using the access file
http://www.mlmmj.org/man/access

but, in my opinion, there's a security issue, anyone can send an email  
from an address, not anyone can receive a mail to moderate and thus  
send the mail to the mailing list.

Henk

On 06 Jul 2009, at 11:08, Sebastian Harl wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Jul 03, 2009 at 10:33:51PM +0200, Henk Cortier wrote:
>> One mailing list has 14 moderators who all wish to be able to send  
>> and
>> moderate the mails they send out.
>>
>> What we would like to avoid is that moderation mails are sent to all
>> moderators, ideally only the sender of the message should receive the
>> moderate mail and be able to reply to it.
>
> Hrm ... what about introducing some tunable to define a list of E-mail
> addresses which are not moderated instead (or additionally)? Imho, it
> does not make a lot of sense to moderate yourself - especially, if
> you're the only one to even "know" about that.
>
> Cheers,
> Sebastian
>
> -- 
> Sebastian "tokkee" Harl +++ GnuPG-ID: 0x8501C7FC +++ http:// 
> tokkee.org/
>
> Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little  
> Temporary
> Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.         -- Benjamin  
> Franklin
>

Re: moderation only by sender

[Mads Martin Jørgensen]

On 06/07/2009, at 13.58, Henk Cortier wrote:

> You can tune any address not to be moderated but to be accepted  
> straight away using the access file
> http://www.mlmmj.org/man/access
>
> but, in my opinion, there's a security issue, anyone can send an  
> email from an address, not anyone can receive a mail to moderate and  
> thus send the mail to the mailing list.


http://mlmmj.org/archive/mlmmj/2008-07/1364.html

Might be what youo want to use.

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
  and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                  -- A. P. J.

Re: moderation only by sender

[Henk Cortier]

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Hi Marco,

> ???   I've an access file for a moderated list that ends in "allow".
> All postings are still moderated.  What am I missing?

it depends on what comes before the "allow".
-- from the manual -- The first rule to match a header decides which  
action to take - allow, deny or moderate the post.
I believe having allow as a last line to be quite dangerous if you  
don't have anything that would apply to most unknown mails before that.

> Should I remove the moderated control file and replace the access
> file with something like:

>
> 	deny the-stuff-I-don't-like
> 	allow whatever-header-I-use-to-bypass-moderation
> 	moderate


What is a "moderated control file"?
The rules you mention seem ok to me.
Henk

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Re: moderation only by sender

[Henk Cortier]

Hi Mads,

thanks

> http://mlmmj.org/archive/mlmmj/2008-07/1364.html
>
> Might be what youo want to use.


sorry for my ignorance but how do add a Header to a mail?

I'm afraid the people using the list are even less aware of how these  
things work than I am so I can't really ask much of them.  The simpler  
the better, for now (and for them) that means: send mail, wait for  
mail, reply to mail, done.

ciao

Henk
henkcortier.com

Re: moderation only by sender

[Marco S Hyman]

On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Henk Cortier wrote:

> What is a "moderated control file"?

http://mlmmj.org/man/new_list says:

   "For having a moderated list, simply create a file called
   'moderated' in the control/ directory. Moderators are added
    to a file called 'moderators' in the control/ dir as well.

With that control file present "allow" seems to mean "allow
the message to be sent to the moderators".   I think I'll
try changing one of my moderated lists to doing everything
in the access file.

Thanks,

/\/\arc

Re: moderation only by sender

[Henk Cortier]

>  I think I'll
> try changing one of my moderated lists to doing everything
> in the access file.


My guess is, if you do that and leave the "modators" list empty, then  
no moderation mail will be sent to no-one.

Henk

Re: moderation only by sender

[Marco S Hyman]

On Jul 6, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Henk Cortier wrote:

>> I think I'll
>> try changing one of my moderated lists to doing everything
>> in the access file.
>
>
> My guess is, if you do that and leave the "modators" list empty,  
> then no moderation mail will be sent to no-one.

I'm not touching control/moderators.  I'm going to change my access
file and remove control/moderated.  It seems that will allow me to
select who gets moderated and who doesn't.

/\/\arc

Re: moderation only by sender

[Morten K. Poulsen]

On Mon, 2009-07-06 at 14:02 -0700, Marco S Hyman wrote:
> On Jul 6, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Henk Cortier wrote:
> > My guess is, if you do that and leave the "modators" list empty,  
> > then no moderation mail will be sent to no-one.
> 
> I'm not touching control/moderators.  I'm going to change my access
> file and remove control/moderated.  It seems that will allow me to
> select who gets moderated and who doesn't.

Yes, that is correct.

Best regards,
Morten

-- 
Morten K. Poulsen <mopo@fabletech.com>
CTO, FableTech
http://fabletech.com/

Re: moderation only by sender

[Thomas Goirand]

Sebastian Harl wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Jul 03, 2009 at 10:33:51PM +0200, Henk Cortier wrote:
>> One mailing list has 14 moderators who all wish to be able to send and
>> moderate the mails they send out.
>>
>> What we would like to avoid is that moderation mails are sent to all
>> moderators, ideally only the sender of the message should receive the
>> moderate mail and be able to reply to it.
> 
> Hrm ... what about introducing some tunable to define a list of E-mail
> addresses which are not moderated instead (or additionally)? Imho, it
> does not make a lot of sense to moderate yourself - especially, if
> you're the only one to even "know" about that.
> 
> Cheers,
> Sebastian

But if you "know" about it, and especially if OTHER THAT ARE NOT
MODERATOR know about it, you want a protection so nobody else but you
can send to the list. The bounce message does the perfect captcha work...

I don't like the:
allow X-MySecret: a6e043b3786d6d19bc141e7d194b6517

It's not always easy to add such headers. Like explain to me how I can
do this with the standard mail client of my Nokia phone...

Thomas

Re: moderation only by sender

[Morten K. Poulsen]

On Tue, 2009-07-07 at 18:17 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> The bounce message does the perfect captcha work...

No, the moderation message can not tell a computer from a human. It can
only authenticate "whatever sent the mail" as "something in control of
that specific mail account."

> I don't like the:
> allow X-MySecret: a6e043b3786d6d19bc141e7d194b6517
> 
> It's not always easy to add such headers. Like explain to me how I can
> do this with the standard mail client of my Nokia phone...

You probably don't send automated newsletters from your phone. The point
of using a mail header with a key, was to allow automated newsletter
dispatching, without having to handle the moderation mail. If you have a
human involved, who does not know how to add headers, moderation is
probably the easiest approach.

You can even have both:

allow X-MySecret: a6e043b3786d6d19bc141e7d194b6517
moderate

Morten

-- 
Morten K. Poulsen <mopo@fabletech.com>
CTO, FableTech
http://fabletech.com/

Re: moderation only by sender

[Mads Martin Jørgensen]

On 03/07/2009, at 23.29, Mads Martin Jørgensen wrote:

> It would be quite easy to implement and if noone else cooks up a  
> patch, I'll personally make one before Friday.

http://mmj.dk/~mmj/ifmodsendonlymodmoderate.diff

It's totally untested and needs someone to try it out, look at it,  
etc. Yes, yes, I'm damn lazy, but this is a team effort, you know :)

(What the above really means is: Moooorteeeen. Would you pretty please  
with sugar on top, tell me what I forgot? You know I cannot code  
anymore...)

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
  and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                  -- A. P. J.

Re: moderation only by sender

[Morten K. Poulsen]

On Tue, 2009-07-07 at 20:19 +0200, Mads Martin Joergensen wrote:
> On 03/07/2009, at 23.29, Mads Martin Jørgensen wrote:
> http://mmj.dk/~mmj/ifmodsendonlymodmoderate.diff
> 
> It's totally untested and needs someone to try it out, look at it,  
> etc. Yes, yes, I'm damn lazy, but this is a team effort, you know :)
> 
> (What the above really means is: Moooorteeeen. Would you pretty please  
> with sugar on top, tell me what I forgot?

From the patch:
+	tmp = concatstr(2, efromsender, "\n");
+	if(ifmodsendonlymodmoderate && strcasestr(moderators, tmp)) {

This substring matching will fail in some corner cases, like me being a
moderator with mortenp+mlmmj@mmj.dk and you sending a mail from
mmj@mmj.dk.

Also, your patch only changes the text in the moderation mail, not the
actual dissemination, which is done in mlmmj-send.c:

        case '2': /* Moderators */
                subfilename = concatstr(2, listdir,
"/control/moderators");

> You know I cannot code anymore...)

I hope you like being a manager ;-)


Morten

-- 
Morten K. Poulsen <mopo@fabletech.com>
CTO, FableTech
http://fabletech.com/

Re: moderation only by sender

[Mads Martin Jørgensen]

On 07/07/2009, at 20.50, Morten K. Poulsen wrote:

>> From the patch:
> +	tmp = concatstr(2, efromsender, "\n");
> +	if(ifmodsendonlymodmoderate && strcasestr(moderators, tmp)) {
>
> This substring matching will fail in some corner cases, like me  
> being a
> moderator with mortenp+mlmmj@mmj.dk and you sending a mail from
> mmj@mmj.dk.


Originally I had:

tmp = concatstr(3, "\n", efromsender, "\n");

Others, you're right. New patch coming up.

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
  and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                  -- A. P. J.

Re: moderation only by sender

[Mads Martin Jørgensen]

On 04/07/2009, at 01.22, Henk Cortier wrote:

> that would be great Mads, if I get it right this is all done in C  
> and we're not competent to alter anything.

Henk, would you mind trying out:

http://mmj.dk/~mmj/ifmodsendonlymodmoderate-2.diff

And report if it works? Morten reviewed it off list, and said it  
looked ok, so now testing is all that is missing. Everyone else is  
welcome too, if they use moderated lists.

> When patches like this work, do they eventually go into the project?  
> All the patching makes installs difficult.


I'll commit it as soon as someone reports a succesful test.

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
  and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                  -- A. P. J.

Re: moderation only by sender

[Thomas Goirand]

Morten K. Poulsen wrote:
> You probably don't send automated newsletters from your phone.

I do, when doing server maintenance with putty, I might need to warn all
customers of this server, which I do using an MLMMJ moderated list.

To me, if you guys want to add such flag, this would be to keep
compatibility with the old behavior where MLMMJ is sending the
moderation to all moderators. The default should be to bounce ONLY to
the moderator sending to the list. IMHO mlmmj-make-ml should create new
list with the tunable in by default.

Another thing, when I add myself as moderator, then use the "subscriber
only post" flag, I can't send to the list unless I also subscribe. This
doesn't make sense. All moderator should be considered as able to write
to the list, even if they are not subscribed and the flag "subscriber
only post" is set. Can this behavior be changed as well???

Thomas

Re: moderation only by sender

[Mads Martin Joergensen]

* Thomas Goirand <thomas@goirand.fr> [Jul 08. 2009 06:53]:
> Morten K. Poulsen wrote:
> > You probably don't send automated newsletters from your phone.
> 
> I do, when doing server maintenance with putty, I might need to warn all
> customers of this server, which I do using an MLMMJ moderated list.
> 
> To me, if you guys want to add such flag, this would be to keep
> compatibility with the old behavior where MLMMJ is sending the
> moderation to all moderators. The default should be to bounce ONLY to
> the moderator sending to the list. IMHO mlmmj-make-ml should create new
> list with the tunable in by default.

I really wouldn't like changing default behaviour, ever. It's not like
they make "-s" the default for "ln" even though that's what most people
use all the time.

> Another thing, when I add myself as moderator, then use the "subscriber
> only post" flag, I can't send to the list unless I also subscribe. This
> doesn't make sense. All moderator should be considered as able to write
> to the list, even if they are not subscribed and the flag "subscriber
> only post" is set. Can this behavior be changed as well???

Should be, I agree. Owners as well.

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
 and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                 -- A. P. J.

Re: moderation only by sender

[Morten K. Poulsen]

On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 12:49 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> Morten K. Poulsen wrote:
> > You probably don't send automated newsletters from your phone.
> 
> I do, when doing server maintenance with putty, I might need to warn all
> customers of this server, which I do using an MLMMJ moderated list.

That does not sound very "automated" to me. Anyway, you can just use the
standard moderation feature.

> To me, if you guys want to add such flag, this would be to keep
> compatibility with the old behavior where MLMMJ is sending the
> moderation to all moderators. The default should be to bounce ONLY to
> the moderator sending to the list.

No. This is not really a problem, and I don't like to change the default
behavior "just because."

> Another thing, when I add myself as moderator, then use the "subscriber
> only post" flag, I can't send to the list unless I also subscribe. This
> doesn't make sense. All moderator should be considered as able to write
> to the list, even if they are not subscribed and the flag "subscriber
> only post" is set. Can this behavior be changed as well???

Sure. Patches are welcome.


Morten

-- 
Morten K. Poulsen <mopo@fabletech.com>
CTO, FableTech
http://fabletech.com/