[Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Markus Valtin]

Hello all,

i have a question regarding automated code generation from Scilab Xcos/Scicos.

Is this possible? And if yes, how is the necessary setup.

Background:

We currently use RTAI for hard realtime but we want to use recent Kernel 
versions, so Xenomai with his RTAI skin seamed promising.

However I read that the RTAI emulation was removed from version 2.6.0 because 
of lack of feedback / lack of LXRT emulation.

So, is there another way like the native Xenomai Support as suggested on
http://www.evidence.eu.com/scilabscicos-code-generator-xenomai.html


Sincerely 
Markus 

Re: [Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Gilles Chanteperdrix]

On 08/22/2012 06:28 PM, Markus Valtin wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> i have a question regarding automated code generation from Scilab Xcos/Scicos.
> 
> Is this possible? And if yes, how is the necessary setup.
> 
> Background:
> 
> We currently use RTAI for hard realtime but we want to use recent Kernel 
> versions, so Xenomai with his RTAI skin seamed promising.
> 
> However I read that the RTAI emulation was removed from version 2.6.0 because 
> of lack of feedback / lack of LXRT emulation.
> 
> So, is there another way like the native Xenomai Support as suggested on
> http://www.evidence.eu.com/scilabscicos-code-generator-xenomai.html


Googling a bit shows that other projects are using scicos with Xenomai:
http://www.scilab-linux.com/
http://rtss.sourceforge.net

I do not know, however, if this is what you are looking for.

You may want to reintegrate an RTAI skin to Xenomai, but in that case,
please find someone to maintain it.

It makes probably more sense to simply change the tools to generate
xenomai native skin calls instead of RTAI calls.

Also if the tools are able to generate code for Linux, chances are that
it is even possible to use the generated code to run with Xenomai posix
skin.

-- 
                                                                Gilles.

Re: [Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Gilles Chanteperdrix]

On 08/22/2012 08:18 PM, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:

> On 08/22/2012 06:28 PM, Markus Valtin wrote:
> 
>> Hello all,
>>
>> i have a question regarding automated code generation from Scilab Xcos/Scicos.
>>
>> Is this possible? And if yes, how is the necessary setup.
>>
>> Background:
>>
>> We currently use RTAI for hard realtime but we want to use recent Kernel 
>> versions, so Xenomai with his RTAI skin seamed promising.
>>
>> However I read that the RTAI emulation was removed from version 2.6.0 because 
>> of lack of feedback / lack of LXRT emulation.
>>
>> So, is there another way like the native Xenomai Support as suggested on
>> http://www.evidence.eu.com/scilabscicos-code-generator-xenomai.html
> 
> 
> Googling a bit shows that other projects are using scicos with Xenomai:
> http://www.scilab-linux.com/
> http://rtss.sourceforge.net
> 
> I do not know, however, if this is what you are looking for.
> 
> You may want to reintegrate an RTAI skin to Xenomai, but in that case,
> please find someone to maintain it.
> 
> It makes probably more sense to simply change the tools to generate
> xenomai native skin calls instead of RTAI calls.
> 
> Also if the tools are able to generate code for Linux, chances are that
> it is even possible to use the generated code to run with Xenomai posix
> skin.


And if the code runs in kernel-space, it should use the RTDM skin.

-- 
                                                                Gilles.

Re: [Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Philippe Gerum]

On 08/22/2012 08:18 PM, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
> On 08/22/2012 06:28 PM, Markus Valtin wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> i have a question regarding automated code generation from Scilab Xcos/Scicos.
>>
>> Is this possible? And if yes, how is the necessary setup.
>>
>> Background:
>>
>> We currently use RTAI for hard realtime but we want to use recent Kernel
>> versions, so Xenomai with his RTAI skin seamed promising.
>>
>> However I read that the RTAI emulation was removed from version 2.6.0 because
>> of lack of feedback / lack of LXRT emulation.
>>
>> So, is there another way like the native Xenomai Support as suggested on
>> http://www.evidence.eu.com/scilabscicos-code-generator-xenomai.html
>
>
> Googling a bit shows that other projects are using scicos with Xenomai:
> http://www.scilab-linux.com/
> http://rtss.sourceforge.net
>
> I do not know, however, if this is what you are looking for.
>
> You may want to reintegrate an RTAI skin to Xenomai, but in that case,
> please find someone to maintain it.

The RTAI skin was removed not only because nobody wanted to maintain it, 
which was by itself a showstopper, but first and foremost because it was 
lacking user-space support and nobody in sight having any interest in 
developing such support, compared to rebasing the code over the native 
Xenomai API, or moving to POSIX. So this basically meant that we had no 
upgrade path to the Xenomai 3 architecture for it.

So, I would complete the sentence this way: bottom line for considering 
any reintegration into Xenomai, would be to find someone to develop from 
scratch and maintain on the __long term__ a sane implementation of a 
LXRT-looking API.

>
> It makes probably more sense to simply change the tools to generate
> xenomai native skin calls instead of RTAI calls.
>
> Also if the tools are able to generate code for Linux, chances are that
> it is even possible to use the generated code to run with Xenomai posix
> skin.
>


-- 
Philippe.

Re: [Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Markus Valtin]

Am Mittwoch, 22. August 2012, 20:59:30 schrieb Gilles Chanteperdrix:
> On 08/22/2012 08:18 PM, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:

Thank you for your answer.
> > Googling a bit shows that other projects are using scicos with Xenomai:
> > http://www.scilab-linux.com/
We like to use an open source solution, but I will have a look at it.

> > http://rtss.sourceforge.net
They the Xenomai Code Generator from Evidentce from my first post.

I was hoping for some feedback from users of this solution and maybe even some 
comments from users/developers about recent developments (Port to Xenomia 
2.6.1 / Scilab 5 support ...)

> > You may want to reintegrate an RTAI skin to Xenomai, but in that case,
> > please find someone to maintain it.
I was more looking for an easy transition path towards Xenomia / Preempt  
Linux.

> > It makes probably more sense to simply change the tools to generate
> > xenomai native skin calls instead of RTAI calls.
> > 
> > Also if the tools are able to generate code for Linux, chances are that
> > it is even possible to use the generated code to run with Xenomai posix
> > skin.
> 
> And if the code runs in kernel-space, it should use the RTDM skin.

This is the intention.

Like I said, I am looking for people how use Scilab and Xenomia together to 
get there opinion on where to start.

Sincerely 
 Markus

Re: [Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Markus Valtin]

Am Mittwoch, 22. August 2012, 23:03:06 schrieb Philippe Gerum:
> On 08/22/2012 08:18 PM, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
> > On 08/22/2012 06:28 PM, Markus Valtin wrote:

> > You may want to reintegrate an RTAI skin to Xenomai, but in that case,
> > please find someone to maintain it.
> 
> The RTAI skin was removed not only because nobody wanted to maintain it,
> which was by itself a showstopper, but first and foremost because it was
> lacking user-space support and nobody in sight having any interest in
> developing such support, compared to rebasing the code over the native
> Xenomai API, or moving to POSIX. So this basically meant that we had no
> upgrade path to the Xenomai 3 architecture for it.
> 
> So, I would complete the sentence this way: bottom line for considering
> any reintegration into Xenomai, would be to find someone to develop from
> scratch and maintain on the __long term__ a sane implementation of a
> LXRT-looking API.

I was not looking for a way to get the RTAI skin back.
I just want to use the tools we have with Xenomia, as easy as possible.

So this is more a post for "user" part of the mailing list.


Sincerely 
 Markus

Re: [Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Gilles Chanteperdrix]

On 08/22/2012 06:28 PM, Markus Valtin wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> i have a question regarding automated code generation from Scilab Xcos/Scicos.
> 
> Is this possible? And if yes, how is the necessary setup.
> 
> Background:
> 
> We currently use RTAI for hard realtime but we want to use recent Kernel 
> versions, so Xenomai with his RTAI skin seamed promising.
> 
> However I read that the RTAI emulation was removed from version 2.6.0 because 
> of lack of feedback / lack of LXRT emulation.
> 
> So, is there another way like the native Xenomai Support as suggested on
> http://www.evidence.eu.com/scilabscicos-code-generator-xenomai.html


>From what I understand from this post:
http://www.xenomai.org/pipermail/xenomai-help/2008-09/msg00077.html

This code generator does not use the RTAI skin, but the POSIX skin.

-- 
                                                                Gilles.

Re: [Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Markus Valtin]

Am Sonntag, 2. September 2012, 16:28:58 schrieb Gilles Chanteperdrix:
> On 08/22/2012 06:28 PM, Markus Valtin wrote:
> > Hello all,
> > 
> > i have a question regarding automated code generation from Scilab
> > Xcos/Scicos.
> > 
> > Is this possible? And if yes, how is the necessary setup.
> > 
> > Background:
> > 
> > We currently use RTAI for hard realtime but we want to use recent Kernel
> > versions, so Xenomai with his RTAI skin seamed promising.
> > 
> > However I read that the RTAI emulation was removed from version 2.6.0
> > because of lack of feedback / lack of LXRT emulation.
> > 
> > So, is there another way like the native Xenomai Support as suggested on
> > http://www.evidence.eu.com/scilabscicos-code-generator-xenomai.html
> 
> From what I understand from this post:
> http://www.xenomai.org/pipermail/xenomai-help/2008-09/msg00077.html
> 
> This code generator does not use the RTAI skin, but the POSIX skin.

Thank you for your reply.

They do use the POSIX skin and also the outdated  Scilab version 4.1.2.

But that might be a starting point. I will keep the list informed.

Sincerely Markus Valtin

Re: [Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Claudio Scordino]

Il 02/09/2012 16:28, Gilles Chanteperdrix ha scritto:
> On 08/22/2012 06:28 PM, Markus Valtin wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> i have a question regarding automated code generation from Scilab Xcos/Scicos.
>>
>> Is this possible? And if yes, how is the necessary setup.
>>
>> Background:
>>
>> We currently use RTAI for hard realtime but we want to use recent Kernel
>> versions, so Xenomai with his RTAI skin seamed promising.
>>
>> However I read that the RTAI emulation was removed from version 2.6.0 because
>> of lack of feedback / lack of LXRT emulation.
>>
>> So, is there another way like the native Xenomai Support as suggested on
>> http://www.evidence.eu.com/scilabscicos-code-generator-xenomai.html
>
>
>  From what I understand from this post:
> http://www.xenomai.org/pipermail/xenomai-help/2008-09/msg00077.html
>
> This code generator does not use the RTAI skin, but the POSIX skin.

Hello everybody.

I'm Claudio, the author of the original email.

As you have seen, our web page allows to download the ScicosPack, which 
works with the Xenomai POSIX skin.

Actually, during the last years, we have not maintained such software, 
mainly due to the lack of feedback or specific requests from 
universities or companies. For some recent project based on the x86 
platform we have used RTAI + Scicos + Comedi. On our embedded platforms, 
instead, we usually prefer Xenomai, but we didn't have any request for 
code generation, yet.

@Markus: can you please give me more details about what you are looking 
for ? If I've understood, you work at the university. Indeed, we are a 
spin-off company of the university (Scuola Sant'Anna, Pisa, Italy) and 
we are very interested in continuing our relationship with research 
institutions.

Best regards,

	Claudio

Re: [Xenomai] Scicos/Xcos Code Generation

[Markus Valtin]

Am Montag, 3. September 2012, 14:05:00 schrieben Sie:
> Il 02/09/2012 16:28, Gilles Chanteperdrix ha scritto:
> > On 08/22/2012 06:28 PM, Markus Valtin wrote:
.....
> > 
> > This code generator does not use the RTAI skin, but the POSIX skin.
> 
> Hello everybody.
> 
> I'm Claudio, the author of the original email.

Hello, great to hear from you.

> As you have seen, our web page allows to download the ScicosPack, which
> works with the Xenomai POSIX skin.

Yes I did that, but haven't had time to try it out yet.

> Actually, during the last years, we have not maintained such software,
> mainly due to the lack of feedback or specific requests from
> universities or companies. For some recent project based on the x86
> platform we have used RTAI + Scicos + Comedi. On our embedded platforms,
> instead, we usually prefer Xenomai, but we didn't have any request for
> code generation, yet.

We also use a RTAI + Scicos + Comedi combination for your projects but for new 
projects we are looking for more up to date solutions, preferably with the 
same comfort RTAI / RTAI Lab and xrtailab / qrtailab offers.

> @Markus: can you please give me more details about what you are looking
> for ?
Sure.

As I said we  mainly use  RTAI + RTAI Lab + Scicos (Scilab 4.1.2) for 
experiments where higher update frequencies are required  or where jitter  is 
not acceptable.
Examples are:

Teaching
 * Inverted Pendulum
     http://www.control.tu-berlin.de/File:PR_Grundlagen_Pendel.jpg
 * Magnetic Levitation

Research
 * Active Vibration Control 
    http://www.control.tu-
berlin.de/Active_Vibration_Control_of_a_Light_and_Flexible_Stress_Ribbon_Footbridge_using_Pneumatic_Muscles
  * Various FES (Functional Electrical Stimulation) based  projects
     http://www.control.tu-
berlin.de/Controlled_Functional_Electric_Stimulation_for_Rehabilitation_Purposes

We use the HART Toolbox (hart.sf.net) and own C/C++ functions to interface 
with various external devices (mostly USB / FTDI) (Linux Kernel driver based).

We appreciate the rapid prototyping with Scicos and the ability to change the 
variouse block parameters on the fly with xrtailab / qrtailab. (RTnet based 
interface to RTAILAB).

However we like to be able to use Scilab 5 and newer kernel versions.
We also would love the possibility to cross compile your Scicos based code for 
lets say the the beagle bone and control  this software from another PC.

> If I've understood, you work at the university. Indeed, we are a
> spin-off company of the university (Scuola Sant'Anna, Pisa, Italy) and
> we are very interested in continuing our relationship with research
> institutions.

This should be possible, as long as the result is Open Source and we can 
modify the code to our needs.

> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 	Claudio

Sincerely 
  Markus Valtin