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* delaying 4.4.2 and 4.3.4
@ 2014-11-13  9:05 Jan Beulich
  2014-11-18 18:03 ` Daniel Kiper
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jan Beulich @ 2014-11-13  9:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: xen-devel

All,

while the 3 month period since the previous stable releases would
expire at the beginning of December, looking at the number of
changes in the stable trees I don't think starting preparations right
now would make much sense. Unless I hear severe objections to
this plan, and unless 4.5 gets significantly delayed, I think we
should look at RC1s for them once 4.5 is (almost) out the door.
That'll also minimize collisions between testing needs 4.5 and the
stable releases have.

Jan

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: delaying 4.4.2 and 4.3.4
  2014-11-13  9:05 delaying 4.4.2 and 4.3.4 Jan Beulich
@ 2014-11-18 18:03 ` Daniel Kiper
  2014-11-18 18:24   ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" Ian Jackson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Kiper @ 2014-11-18 18:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: jbeulich, ian.jackson; +Cc: xen-devel

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 09:05:47AM +0000, Jan Beulich wrote:
> All,
>
> while the 3 month period since the previous stable releases would
> expire at the beginning of December, looking at the number of
> changes in the stable trees I don't think starting preparations right
> now would make much sense. Unless I hear severe objections to
> this plan, and unless 4.5 gets significantly delayed, I think we
> should look at RC1s for them once 4.5 is (almost) out the door.
> That'll also minimize collisions between testing needs 4.5 and the
> stable releases have.

By the way, what I should do to have commit f3f5f1927f0d3aef9e3d2ce554dbfa0de73487d5
(tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface) in at least Xen 4.3?
I am asking about that more than five months. This patch fixes real bug.

Daniel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface"
  2014-11-18 18:03 ` Daniel Kiper
@ 2014-11-18 18:24   ` Ian Jackson
  2014-11-18 19:20     ` Charles Arnold
  2014-11-19  8:35     ` Daniel Kiper
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Ian Jackson @ 2014-11-18 18:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Daniel Kiper; +Cc: Charles Arnold, xen-devel, Ian Campbell, jbeulich

Daniel Kiper writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] delaying 4.4.2 and 4.3.4"):
> By the way, what I should do to have commit f3f5f1927f0d3aef9e3d2ce554dbfa0de73487d5
> (tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface) in at least Xen 4.3?
> I am asking about that more than five months. This patch fixes real bug.

I don't seem to be able to find these mails from you but my mailbox is
very big.  The normal thing ought to be for you to post a backport
request and CC the stable tools maintainer (ie me).  I'm sorry if I
dropped your message.

The patch looks reasonable to backport.  I have put it on my list for
backporting later.  I'll wait a bit to see if anyone objects.
(I have also CC'd the patch's original author and also Ian C because
he acked it for unstable.)

Does it apply cleanly to 4.3 and 4.4?  I haven't checked.  Daniel, if
you could check that, that would be helpful.  If it doesn't then the
normal process would be for the backport requestor (ie you) to post
the revised patch against 4.3 and/or 4.4.

Thanks,
Ian.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface"
  2014-11-18 18:24   ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" Ian Jackson
@ 2014-11-18 19:20     ` Charles Arnold
  2014-11-19  8:35     ` Daniel Kiper
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Charles Arnold @ 2014-11-18 19:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ian Jackson, Daniel Kiper; +Cc: xen-devel, Ian Campbell, Jan Beulich

>>> On 11/18/2014 at 11:24 AM, Ian Jackson <Ian.Jackson@eu.citrix.com> wrote: 
> Daniel Kiper writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] delaying 4.4.2 and 4.3.4"):
>> By the way, what I should do to have commit 
> f3f5f1927f0d3aef9e3d2ce554dbfa0de73487d5
>> (tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface) in at least Xen 4.3?
>> I am asking about that more than five months. This patch fixes real bug.
> 
> I don't seem to be able to find these mails from you but my mailbox is
> very big.  The normal thing ought to be for you to post a backport
> request and CC the stable tools maintainer (ie me).  I'm sorry if I
> dropped your message.
> 
> The patch looks reasonable to backport.  I have put it on my list for
> backporting later.  I'll wait a bit to see if anyone objects.
> (I have also CC'd the patch's original author and also Ian C because
> he acked it for unstable.)

It should backport without problem.  I would also recommend this small
change that adds quotes around $bridge and $dev to handle spaces in names.
This should also go into unstable.

diff --git a/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge b/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge
index 3d72ca4..8b67b0a 100644
--- a/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge
+++ b/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge
@@ -77,7 +77,7 @@ fi
 case "$command" in
     online)
         setup_virtual_bridge_port "$dev"
-        set_mtu $bridge $dev
+        set_mtu "$bridge" "$dev"
         add_to_bridge "$bridge" "$dev"
         ;;
 
@@ -88,7 +88,7 @@ case "$command" in
 
     add)
         setup_virtual_bridge_port "$dev"
-        set_mtu $bridge $dev
+        set_mtu "$bridge" "$dev"
         add_to_bridge "$bridge" "$dev"
         ;;
 esac

^ permalink raw reply related	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface"
  2014-11-18 18:24   ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" Ian Jackson
  2014-11-18 19:20     ` Charles Arnold
@ 2014-11-19  8:35     ` Daniel Kiper
  2015-01-12 15:44       ` Ian Jackson
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Kiper @ 2014-11-19  8:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ian Jackson
  Cc: Charles Arnold, xen-devel, jbeulich, Daniel Kiper, Ian Campbell

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 06:24:31PM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Daniel Kiper writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] delaying 4.4.2 and 4.3.4"):
> > By the way, what I should do to have commit f3f5f1927f0d3aef9e3d2ce554dbfa0de73487d5
> > (tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface) in at least Xen 4.3?
> > I am asking about that more than five months. This patch fixes real bug.
>
> I don't seem to be able to find these mails from you but my mailbox is
> very big.  The normal thing ought to be for you to post a backport
> request and CC the stable tools maintainer (ie me).  I'm sorry if I
> dropped your message.
>
> The patch looks reasonable to backport.  I have put it on my list for
> backporting later.  I'll wait a bit to see if anyone objects.
> (I have also CC'd the patch's original author and also Ian C because
> he acked it for unstable.)
>
> Does it apply cleanly to 4.3 and 4.4?  I haven't checked.  Daniel, if
> you could check that, that would be helpful.  If it doesn't then the
> normal process would be for the backport requestor (ie you) to post
> the revised patch against 4.3 and/or 4.4.

4.4 and later have this patch. 4.3 and earlier ones do not have this patch.
It could be cherry picked to 4.3 and 4.2 without any issues.

Daniel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface"
  2014-11-19  8:35     ` Daniel Kiper
@ 2015-01-12 15:44       ` Ian Jackson
  2015-01-12 16:37         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3 Charles Arnold
                           ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Ian Jackson @ 2015-01-12 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Daniel Kiper; +Cc: Charles Arnold, xen-devel, Ian Campbell, jbeulich

Daniel Kiper writes ("Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface""):
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 06:24:31PM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Does it apply cleanly to 4.3 and 4.4?  I haven't checked.  Daniel, if
> > you could check that, that would be helpful.  If it doesn't then the
> > normal process would be for the backport requestor (ie you) to post
> > the revised patch against 4.3 and/or 4.4.
> 
> 4.4 and later have this patch. 4.3 and earlier ones do not have this patch.
> It could be cherry picked to 4.3 and 4.2 without any issues.

I tried cherry-picking this commit (f3f5f192) to 4.4 and it didn't
apply.

If anyone cares to prepare a backport I will apply it.

Thanks,
Ian.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3
  2015-01-12 15:44       ` Ian Jackson
@ 2015-01-12 16:37         ` Charles Arnold
  2015-01-12 17:06           ` Ian Jackson
  2015-01-12 16:37         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable Charles Arnold
                           ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Charles Arnold @ 2015-01-12 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ian Jackson, Daniel Kiper; +Cc: xen-devel, Ian Campbell, Jan Beulich

With changeset 22885 support was added for setting the MTU in the vif-bridge
script for when a vif interface was set to 'online'.  The was not done for the
'add' operation.  The 'add' operation was added to the script for when tap
devices were specified (c/s 21944). With the setting of the MTU for the
'online' case was there a reason for omitting the 'add'?

This patch sets the MTU for both 'online' and 'add' in the vif-bridge script.

Backport for Xen version 4.3

Signed-off-by: Charles Arnold <carnold@suse.com>

diff --git a/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge b/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge
index f489519..da8a0f8 100644
--- a/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge
+++ b/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge
@@ -82,11 +82,7 @@ fi
 case "$command" in
     online)
         setup_virtual_bridge_port "$dev"
-        mtu="`ip link show $bridge | awk '/mtu/ { print $5 }'`"
-        if [ -n "$mtu" ] && [ "$mtu" -gt 0 ]
-        then
-                ip link set $dev mtu $mtu || :
-        fi
+        set_mtu "$bridge" "$dev"
         add_to_bridge "$bridge" "$dev"
         ;;
 
@@ -97,6 +93,7 @@ case "$command" in
 
     add)
         setup_virtual_bridge_port "$dev"
+        set_mtu "$bridge" "$dev"
         add_to_bridge "$bridge" "$dev"
         ;;
 esac
diff --git a/tools/hotplug/Linux/xen-network-common.sh b/tools/hotplug/Linux/xen-network-common.sh
index 8cff156..9a9526b 100644
--- a/tools/hotplug/Linux/xen-network-common.sh
+++ b/tools/hotplug/Linux/xen-network-common.sh
@@ -132,3 +132,14 @@ add_to_bridge () {
     ip link set ${dev} up
 }
 
+# Usage: set_mtu bridge dev
+set_mtu () {
+    local bridge=$1
+    local dev=$2
+    mtu="`ip link show ${bridge}| awk '/mtu/ { print $5 }'`"
+    if [ -n "$mtu" ] && [ "$mtu" -gt 0 ]
+    then
+            ip link set ${dev} mtu $mtu || :
+    fi
+}
+

^ permalink raw reply related	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable
  2015-01-12 15:44       ` Ian Jackson
  2015-01-12 16:37         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3 Charles Arnold
@ 2015-01-12 16:37         ` Charles Arnold
  2015-01-12 17:03           ` Ian Jackson
  2015-01-12 16:44         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" Charles Arnold
  2015-01-13 15:06         ` Daniel Kiper
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Charles Arnold @ 2015-01-12 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ian Jackson, Daniel Kiper; +Cc: xen-devel, Ian Campbell, Jan Beulich

Add quotes around $bridge and $dev to handle spaces in names.
This should go into 4.4, 4.5 and unstable.

Signed-off-by: Charles Arnold <carnold@suse.com>

diff --git a/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge b/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge
index 3d72ca4..8b67b0a 100644
--- a/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge
+++ b/tools/hotplug/Linux/vif-bridge
@@ -77,7 +77,7 @@ fi
 case "$command" in
     online)
         setup_virtual_bridge_port "$dev"
-        set_mtu $bridge $dev
+        set_mtu "$bridge" "$dev"
         add_to_bridge "$bridge" "$dev"
         ;;
 
@@ -88,7 +88,7 @@ case "$command" in
 
     add)
         setup_virtual_bridge_port "$dev"
-        set_mtu $bridge $dev
+        set_mtu "$bridge" "$dev"
         add_to_bridge "$bridge" "$dev"
         ;;
 esac

^ permalink raw reply related	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface"
  2015-01-12 15:44       ` Ian Jackson
  2015-01-12 16:37         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3 Charles Arnold
  2015-01-12 16:37         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable Charles Arnold
@ 2015-01-12 16:44         ` Charles Arnold
  2015-01-13 15:06         ` Daniel Kiper
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Charles Arnold @ 2015-01-12 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ian Jackson, Daniel Kiper; +Cc: xen-devel, Ian Campbell, Jan Beulich

Forgot to put [Patch] in the subject line for the last two replies :(
- Charles

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable
  2015-01-12 16:37         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable Charles Arnold
@ 2015-01-12 17:03           ` Ian Jackson
  2015-01-12 17:15             ` Charles Arnold
  2015-01-13  7:15             ` Philipp Hahn
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Ian Jackson @ 2015-01-12 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles Arnold; +Cc: xen-devel, Jan Beulich, Ian Campbell, Daniel Kiper

Charles Arnold writes ("Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable"):
> Add quotes around $bridge and $dev to handle spaces in names.
> This should go into 4.4, 4.5 and unstable.

Is this really necessary for backporting ?

Frankly I think if you put spaces in your network device names an
awful lot of things are going to break.

Ian.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3
  2015-01-12 16:37         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3 Charles Arnold
@ 2015-01-12 17:06           ` Ian Jackson
  2015-01-13 15:09             ` Daniel Kiper
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Ian Jackson @ 2015-01-12 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles Arnold; +Cc: xen-devel, Jan Beulich, Ian Campbell, Daniel Kiper

Charles Arnold writes ("Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3"):
> With changeset 22885 support was added for setting the MTU in the vif-bridge
> script for when a vif interface was set to 'online'.  The was not done for the
> 'add' operation.  The 'add' operation was added to the script for when tap
> devices were specified (c/s 21944). With the setting of the MTU for the
> 'online' case was there a reason for omitting the 'add'?
> 
> This patch sets the MTU for both 'online' and 'add' in the vif-bridge script.
> 
> Backport for Xen version 4.3
> 
> Signed-off-by: Charles Arnold <carnold@suse.com>

Thanks, applied to 4.3.

Ian.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable
  2015-01-12 17:03           ` Ian Jackson
@ 2015-01-12 17:15             ` Charles Arnold
  2015-01-13  7:15             ` Philipp Hahn
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Charles Arnold @ 2015-01-12 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ian Jackson; +Cc: xen-devel, Jan Beulich, Ian Campbell, Daniel Kiper

>>> On 1/12/2015 at 10:03 AM, Ian Jackson <Ian.Jackson@eu.citrix.com> wrote: 
> Charles Arnold writes ("Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from 
> bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable"):
>> Add quotes around $bridge and $dev to handle spaces in names.
>> This should go into 4.4, 4.5 and unstable.
> 
> Is this really necessary for backporting ?
> 
> Frankly I think if you put spaces in your network device names an
> awful lot of things are going to break.

You are probably right.  The change was also for consistency in how the variables are used elsewhere in the script.

- Charles

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable
  2015-01-12 17:03           ` Ian Jackson
  2015-01-12 17:15             ` Charles Arnold
@ 2015-01-13  7:15             ` Philipp Hahn
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Philipp Hahn @ 2015-01-13  7:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: xen-devel

Hello,

On 12.01.2015 18:03, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Charles Arnold writes ("Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable"):
>> Add quotes around $bridge and $dev to handle spaces in names.
>> This should go into 4.4, 4.5 and unstable.
> 
> Is this really necessary for backporting ?
> 
> Frankly I think if you put spaces in your network device names an
> awful lot of things are going to break.

Luckily for you at least Linux does not allow space characters in
interface names: net/core/dev.c:936 dev_valid_name

On the other hand I find not caring about quoting somehow dangerous, as
I already expeienced one desaster caused by missing quotes. Just my 2¢.

Philipp

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface"
  2015-01-12 15:44       ` Ian Jackson
                           ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2015-01-12 16:44         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" Charles Arnold
@ 2015-01-13 15:06         ` Daniel Kiper
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Kiper @ 2015-01-13 15:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ian Jackson
  Cc: Charles Arnold, xen-devel, jbeulich, Daniel Kiper, Ian Campbell

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 03:44:28PM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Daniel Kiper writes ("Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface""):
> > On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 06:24:31PM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > > Does it apply cleanly to 4.3 and 4.4?  I haven't checked.  Daniel, if
> > > you could check that, that would be helpful.  If it doesn't then the
> > > normal process would be for the backport requestor (ie you) to post
> > > the revised patch against 4.3 and/or 4.4.
> >
> > 4.4 and later have this patch. 4.3 and earlier ones do not have this patch.
> > It could be cherry picked to 4.3 and 4.2 without any issues.
>
> I tried cherry-picking this commit (f3f5f192) to 4.4 and it didn't
> apply.

As I wrote above "4.4 and later have this patch".

Daniel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

* Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3
  2015-01-12 17:06           ` Ian Jackson
@ 2015-01-13 15:09             ` Daniel Kiper
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Kiper @ 2015-01-13 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ian Jackson
  Cc: Charles Arnold, xen-devel, Jan Beulich, Ian Campbell,
	Daniel Kiper

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 05:06:12PM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Charles Arnold writes ("Re: Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3"):
> > With changeset 22885 support was added for setting the MTU in the vif-bridge
> > script for when a vif interface was set to 'online'.  The was not done for the
> > 'add' operation.  The 'add' operation was added to the script for when tap
> > devices were specified (c/s 21944). With the setting of the MTU for the
> > 'online' case was there a reason for omitting the 'add'?
> >
> > This patch sets the MTU for both 'online' and 'add' in the vif-bridge script.
> >
> > Backport for Xen version 4.3
> >
> > Signed-off-by: Charles Arnold <carnold@suse.com>
>
> Thanks, applied to 4.3.

Thanks a lot guys!

Daniel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2015-01-13 15:09 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2014-11-13  9:05 delaying 4.4.2 and 4.3.4 Jan Beulich
2014-11-18 18:03 ` Daniel Kiper
2014-11-18 18:24   ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" Ian Jackson
2014-11-18 19:20     ` Charles Arnold
2014-11-19  8:35     ` Daniel Kiper
2015-01-12 15:44       ` Ian Jackson
2015-01-12 16:37         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.3 Charles Arnold
2015-01-12 17:06           ` Ian Jackson
2015-01-13 15:09             ` Daniel Kiper
2015-01-12 16:37         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" - for Xen 4.4, 4.5, and unstable Charles Arnold
2015-01-12 17:03           ` Ian Jackson
2015-01-12 17:15             ` Charles Arnold
2015-01-13  7:15             ` Philipp Hahn
2015-01-12 16:44         ` Backport request for "tools/hotplug: set mtu from bridge for tap interface" Charles Arnold
2015-01-13 15:06         ` Daniel Kiper

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