Re: questions for alsa-devel

Re: questions for alsa-devel

[Takashi Iwai]

Hi Paul,

At Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:57:57 -0400,
Paul Davis wrote:
> 
> takashi - i can't post to alsa-devel at the moment (my ISP and sf.net
> have messed up their configuration somehow).

oh it's bad...

> i tried sending these via
> jaroslav, but i got no reply whatsoever and they never showed up on
> the list.
 
i guess he is quite busy now to prepare the latest patches for 2.5
kernel.


> 1) do you know why support for the SiS 7012 chip has been commented
>    out of the intel8x0 module? everything else in ALSA suggests
>    that its supported, except this:
> 
> static struct pci_device_id snd_intel8x0_joystick_ids[] __devinitdata = {
> 	{ 0x8086, 0x2410, PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0, 0, 0 },	/* 82801AA */
> 	{ 0x8086, 0x2420, PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0, 0, 0 },	/* 82901AB */
> 	{ 0x8086, 0x2440, PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0, 0, 0 }, /* ICH2 */
> 	{ 0x8086, 0x244c, PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0, 0, 0 }, /* ICH2M */
> 	{ 0x8086, 0x248c, PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0, 0, 0 },	/* ICH3 */
> 	// { 0x8086, 0x7195, PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0, 0, 0 },	/* 440MX */
> 	// { 0x1039, 0x7012, PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0, 0, 0 },	/* SI7012 */
> 	{ 0x10de, 0x01b2, PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0, 0, 0 },	/* NFORCE */
> 	{ 0, }
> };

si7012 is still supported.  the array above is the list for joystick
supports :)  the pcm should work:

static struct pci_device_id snd_intel8x0_ids[] __devinitdata = {
	...
	{ 0x1039, 0x7012, PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0, 0, DEVICE_SIS },	/* SI7012 */
	...
};


> 2) i recently compiled rc3 on a mandrake 8.2 system. everything went
> smoothly. when i went to modprobe, i got messages suggesting to me
> that there a mismatch between the kernels and the ALSA modules with
> respect to symbol versioning. (several missing symbols, all with
> versions). i've looked through the archives and tried google, but i
> can't see how to fix this or if something else is going on.

most likely the driver was built with the incompatible kernel tree.
please check whether you installed the correct kernel-source package
and configure points the right directory (you can pass the directory
via --with-kernel option).

or, it could be a problem of rc3.  i've never compiled with module
version.  could you show which symbols are missing?

also, please note that on some distribution such like SuSE, you need
to overwrite certain kernel header files to match with the running
kernel.  for example, in the case of SuSE, /boot/vmlinuz.autoconf.h
and /boot/vmlinuz.version.h must be renamed and copied to
/usr/src/linux/include/linux, if you use an SMP kernel.

i'm not sure how about on mandrake, so cc'ed to Thierry.


ciao,

Takashi


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Re: questions for alsa-devel

[Thierry Vignaud]

Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de> writes:

> > 2) i recently compiled rc3 on a mandrake 8.2 system. everything
> > went smoothly. when i went to modprobe, i got messages suggesting
> > to me that there a mismatch between the kernels and the ALSA
> > modules with respect to symbol versioning. (several missing
> > symbols, all with versions). i've looked through the archives and
> > tried google, but i can't see how to fix this or if something else
> > is going on.

1) "make mrproper" should be the first step when recompiling a kernel
   from the kernel-source package since it has previously be used to
   compile our various kernel (up, smp, enterprise [smp+highmem],
   secure, linus (no patches), BOOT [for drakx installer]).

   most people don't do it and have problems.

2) alter the extraversion in main Makefile so that you don't screw up
   the mandrake kernel if you make something wrong (there's a rescue
   on the first cd but just avoid troubles)
   eg: in mdk9.0, we now alter it by default ("EXTRAVERSION = -16mdk"
   became "EXTRAVERSION = -16mdkcustom")

these 2 items should prevent versionning problems regarding modules

3) you can then steal the mdk kernel config from /boot/config (link on
   /boot/config-2.4.....)

4) note that if you boot with a kernel with alsa-0.9.0, all your alsa
   apps won't work unless you use them in oss emulation mode.

   it may be a lot simpler to update to mdk9.0, either by urpmi or by
   running drakx from cds or the net (just cat images/network.img on a
   floppy)

> most likely the driver was built with the incompatible kernel tree.
> please check whether you installed the correct kernel-source package
> and configure points the right directory (you can pass the directory
> via --with-kernel option).

alsa default to /usr/src/linux which should be a link to
linux-2.4.8...

it might just be simpler to steal juan patch that put alsa in sound
directory (look at linux-2.4.19-qX tarball and the mdk9.0 srpm spec
file)

but then, it's even simpler to recompile the srpm or just install the
binary rpm from mdk9.0 ...

> or, it could be a problem of rc3.  i've never compiled with module
> version.  could you show which symbols are missing?

hum, mdk9.0 is compiled with module versionning and we've no problems
(i mean there're bugs but not such problems)



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Re: questions for alsa-devel

[Takashi Iwai]

Hi,

At Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:17:10 +0200,
Thierry Vignaud wrote:
> 
> Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de> writes:
> 
> > > 2) i recently compiled rc3 on a mandrake 8.2 system. everything
> > > went smoothly. when i went to modprobe, i got messages suggesting
> > > to me that there a mismatch between the kernels and the ALSA
> > > modules with respect to symbol versioning. (several missing
> > > symbols, all with versions). i've looked through the archives and
> > > tried google, but i can't see how to fix this or if something else
> > > is going on.
> 
> 1) "make mrproper" should be the first step when recompiling a kernel
>    from the kernel-source package since it has previously be used to
>    compile our various kernel (up, smp, enterprise [smp+highmem],
>    secure, linus (no patches), BOOT [for drakx installer]).
> 
>    most people don't do it and have problems.
> 
> 2) alter the extraversion in main Makefile so that you don't screw up
>    the mandrake kernel if you make something wrong (there's a rescue
>    on the first cd but just avoid troubles)
>    eg: in mdk9.0, we now alter it by default ("EXTRAVERSION = -16mdk"
>    became "EXTRAVERSION = -16mdkcustom")
> 
> these 2 items should prevent versionning problems regarding modules
> 
> 3) you can then steal the mdk kernel config from /boot/config (link on
>    /boot/config-2.4.....)
 
it would be nice to collect such info for each distribution and put
them on alsa's web page.


> 4) note that if you boot with a kernel with alsa-0.9.0, all your alsa
>    apps won't work unless you use them in oss emulation mode.
 
why?  is there any incompatibility?


Takashi


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Re: questions for alsa-devel

[Thierry Vignaud]

Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de> writes:

> > 4) note that if you boot with a kernel with alsa-0.9.0, all your
> >    alsa apps won't work unless you use them in oss emulation mode.
>  
> why?  is there any incompatibility?

i presume you joke ?
remember the incompatible apis of alsa-0.5.x and alsa-0.9.x ? :-)



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Re: questions for alsa-devel

[Takashi Iwai]

At Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:37:35 +0200,
Thierry Vignaud wrote:
> 
> Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de> writes:
> 
> > > 4) note that if you boot with a kernel with alsa-0.9.0, all your
> > >    alsa apps won't work unless you use them in oss emulation mode.
> >  
> > why?  is there any incompatibility?
> 
> i presume you joke ?
> remember the incompatible apis of alsa-0.5.x and alsa-0.9.x ? :-)

oh, i didn't think of apps with 0.5.x...
understood.  my silly question.


Takashi


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Re: Re: questions for alsa-devel

[James Courtier-Dutton]

Thierry Vignaud wrote:

>Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de> writes:
>
>  
>
>>>4) note that if you boot with a kernel with alsa-0.9.0, all your
>>>   alsa apps won't work unless you use them in oss emulation mode.
>>>      
>>>
>> 
>>why?  is there any incompatibility?
>>    
>>
>
>i presume you joke ?
>remember the incompatible apis of alsa-0.5.x and alsa-0.9.x ? :-)
>
>  
>
You are assuming that people still use alsa-0.5.x in applications.
For example, xine (xine.sf.net) dropped support for alsa-0.5.x ages ago, 
it only supports alsa-0.9.x.
It also supports lots of other audio drivers, eg. oss, esd, arts etc.
Are there still applications out there that only support alsa-0.5.x and 
not alsa-0.9.x.
alsa-0.9.x is so much easier to program an application for than 
alsa-0.5.x ever was.

Cheers
James





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Re: Re: questions for alsa-devel

[James Tappin]

On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:51:35 +1000
James Courtier-Dutton <James@superbug.demon.co.uk> wrote:

J
JCD> You are assuming that people still use alsa-0.5.x in applications.
JCD> For example, xine (xine.sf.net) dropped support for alsa-0.5.x ages
JCD> ago, it only supports alsa-0.9.x.
JCD> It also supports lots of other audio drivers, eg. oss, esd, arts
JCD> etc. Are there still applications out there that only support
JCD> alsa-0.5.x and not alsa-0.9.x.

The MIDI stuff in KDE springs to mind, unless they've gotten their act
together in the 3.1 betas.

James

-- 
+------------------------+-------------------------------+---------+
| James Tappin           | School of Physics & Astronomy |  O__    |
| sjt@star.sr.bham.ac.uk | University of Birmingham      | --  \/` |
| Ph: 0121-414-6462. Fax: 0121-414-3722                  |         |
+--------------------------------------------------------+---------+


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Re: Re: questions for alsa-devel

[Thierry Vignaud]

James Courtier-Dutton <James@superbug.demon.co.uk> writes:

> You are assuming that people still use alsa-0.5.x in applications.
> For example, xine (xine.sf.net) dropped support for alsa-0.5.x ages
> ago, it only supports alsa-0.9.x.
> It also supports lots of other audio drivers, eg. oss, esd, arts etc.
> Are there still applications out there that only support alsa-0.5.x
> and not alsa-0.9.x.
> alsa-0.9.x is so much easier to program an application for than
> alsa-0.5.x ever was.

we're talking about booting with an alsa-0.9.0 kernel on a distro
builded 8 monthes ago with libalsa-0.5.x ...



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Re: Re: questions for alsa-devel

[Patrick Shirkey]

Takashi Iwai wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> At Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:17:10 +0200,
> Thierry Vignaud wrote:
> 
>>Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de> writes:
>>
>>
>>>>2) i recently compiled rc3 on a mandrake 8.2 system. everything
>>>>went smoothly. when i went to modprobe, i got messages suggesting
>>>>to me that there a mismatch between the kernels and the ALSA
>>>>modules with respect to symbol versioning. (several missing
>>>>symbols, all with versions). i've looked through the archives and
>>>>tried google, but i can't see how to fix this or if something else
>>>>is going on.
>>>
>>1) "make mrproper" should be the first step when recompiling a kernel
>>   from the kernel-source package since it has previously be used to
>>   compile our various kernel (up, smp, enterprise [smp+highmem],
>>   secure, linus (no patches), BOOT [for drakx installer]).
>>
>>   most people don't do it and have problems.
>>
>>2) alter the extraversion in main Makefile so that you don't screw up
>>   the mandrake kernel if you make something wrong (there's a rescue
>>   on the first cd but just avoid troubles)
>>   eg: in mdk9.0, we now alter it by default ("EXTRAVERSION = -16mdk"
>>   became "EXTRAVERSION = -16mdkcustom")
>>
>>these 2 items should prevent versionning problems regarding modules
>>
>>3) you can then steal the mdk kernel config from /boot/config (link on
>>   /boot/config-2.4.....)
> 
>  
> it would be nice to collect such info for each distribution and put
> them on alsa's web page.
> 

I will write it up if people send me the info that needs to be included. 
Like this thread.

What should the page be called though?

> 
> 
>>4) note that if you boot with a kernel with alsa-0.9.0, all your alsa
>>   apps won't work unless you use them in oss emulation mode.
> 
>  
> why?  is there any incompatibility?
> 
> 
> Takashi
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 


-- 
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
For the discerning hardware connoisseur
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================

"Um...symbol_get and symbol_put... They're
kindof like does anyone remember like get_symbol
and put_symbol I think we used to have..."
- Rusty Russell in his talk on the module subsystem



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Re: questions for alsa-devel

[Thierry Vignaud]

Paul Davis <pbd@op.net> writes:

> > hum, mdk9.0 is compiled with module versionning and we've no
> > problems (i mean there're bugs but not such problems)
>
> this is 8.2 ...

this means that we compile rc3 with versionning symbols without
problems, so this answer takashi fear

> i have a bit of a problem with all of this. why doesn't ALSA build
> "out of the box"? the description you've given of what is necessary
> to get this to work seems (for the most part) to be a bit
> ridiculous.

insulting people that take time to answer you has always been a
constructive & efficient communication way.

> > 4) note that if you boot with a kernel with alsa-0.9.0, all your
> >    alsa apps won't work unless you use them in oss emulation mode.
>
> why is this? note that i never compile ALSA as part of the kernel,
> and i doubt that i ever will, even when 2.5/2.6/3.0 comes out. i
> prefer to be able to update my drivers without touching my kernel
> source.

the problem will remains the same whatever you compiled the alsa
modules in the same time you compiled the kernel or as a separate
pacakge : applications linked with alsa-0.5 library won't be able to
dialog with alsa-0.9.0 kernel ...

> updating from 8.2 to 9.0 over a 56k link strikes me as a pretty
> absurd step to take.

then, unless you absolutely need the fixes provided by the latest alsa
driver for your card, there's no point in upgrading it without
upgrading libalsa and relevant applications...

> having to specifically install kernel source to compile ALSA (and
> presumably other drivers) seems very odd to me. i would understand
> if ALSA just failed to compile without that step, but i didn't ask
> for or say no to a kernel source package, and ALSA compiled just
> fine.

alsa can compile fine as an extra package providing you've kernel
headers and the right links in /boot and /lib/modules (config, build,
System.map, ...)

> frankly, i was very suprised to get ALSA 0.5 in mdk8.2. its been
> publically stated for months and months that 0.5 is no longer under
> development and is not really supported (though takashi has done a
> great job with it). i did a quick search with rpmdrake to see if a
> 0.9.0 rpm was on the installation disks, but i couldn't find it.

mdk8.2 is more than 6 monthes old; i don't have yet time support in
tcp/ip to download future version of alsa-0.9.0 when only stable
versions of alsa-0.5.x were out...

the point of alsa-0.5.x integration in mandrake kernel was more
drivers (there're lots of cards not supported by oss drivers but by
alsa. eg the fm801 i used to have)

we also put the corresponding alsa libs and tools since they enable
some more features in some apps.

if you want less drivers and less features, that's your problem.



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Re: questions for alsa-devel

[Thierry Vignaud]

Paul Davis <pbd@op.net> writes:

> its just that my experience of using ALSA for several years when
> built with a kernel from kernel.org has been that i just type:
>
>      cd .../alsa-cvs/alsa-{driver,lib,utils}
> then
>      cvscompile
> or
>      ./configure && make && make install
>
> and it works. i was very suprised when this did not happen with my new
> mandrake system.

if it look for stuff in /usr/src/linux and if kernel-source is
installed, there might be serious problem since latest kernel that was
build from there may not (and surely is not) the up one you probably
use.
add this to the fact we used sybol versionning.
what's more the signature mechanism used by symbols versionning is not
such solid...

so the cleaner way is to recompile your own kernel from kernel source
after a make mrproper then build alsa modules.

this will :
- leave you with the std mdk kernel that worked previously and a new
  one with alsa 0.9

- make you use a good general principe even the odds than alsa prevent
  you to boot're quite low)

> > the problem will remains the same whatever you compiled the alsa
> > modules in the same time you compiled the kernel or as a separate
> > pacakge : applications linked with alsa-0.5 library won't be able
> > to dialog with alsa-0.9.0 kernel ...
>
> which applications are they? i know of very few ALSA apps that use
> 0.5, and to be honest, i think it would be much better for mandrake
> to not distribute them.

i cannot tell you which one exactely since as i'm dailly working on
cooker, i'have difficulties to tell you what changes occured between X
and Y days, but i know for sure there were quite some (sdl, mplayer
(well, was not exactely en example of the alsa api usage), wine, ...)
these were some of the bastards that ennoyed us when we switched to
alsa-0.9


> > > updating from 8.2 to 9.0 over a 56k link strikes me as a pretty
> > > absurd step to take.
> >
> > then, unless you absolutely need the fixes provided by the latest
> > alsa driver for your card, there's no point in upgrading it
> > without upgrading libalsa and relevant applications...
>
> the applications mean nothing to me, since i write audio apps for
> linux, and any existing ones that use 0.5 are not of much use to me
> for many different reasons.
>
> i know about the rest of ALSA. thierry, perhaps you don't know that
> i've been a significant contributor to ALSA for several years,
> including writing 3 lowlevel drivers, and participating in design
> discussions and general bitching sessions on alsa-devel for quite
> some time now.

different visions :

- an end user want coherent system with applications linked sound
  library that can use kernel drivers

- a developper may want latest drivers with multiples versions of the
  same lib even if in that case only one of these libraries can use
  alsa drivers

> > if you want less drivers and less features, that's your problem.
>
> no, i just wanted a system that would work. microtel shipped me a
> system with an audio chip not properly supported by ALSA 0.5. since
> i've been using ALSA for 3 or 4 years now, i naturally assumed that
> it would be simple to compile and install 0.9. it seems i was wrong
> about that.

if it's supported by newer alsa (don't understand why a hw vendor ship
such a sound card whereas only mdk9.0 integrated alsa-0.9.0), the
simple way (considering we've to build lots of kernel and considering
how kernel-source package is left (aka the need to type make
mrproper)), the cleaner way is to :
- recompile your own kernel, then newer alsa
- type make mrproper, copy /boot/config as .config; run make
  oldconfig; then recompile alsa should be enought

> ps. you probably know about the related problems with microtel
>     shipping systems with a video chipset not properly supported
>     by either the kernel framebuffer or X11. this isn't a purely
>     sound-related issue :)

not really, i'm a developper/packager in r&d, i'm mostly working on
cooker working on our package and developing our tools.
if i were some marketing or sales people, i would have. i develop and
package, i don't deeply look at sales contract, ...

developping mdk8.2 in late 2001 up to february 2002 (and don't forget
that we freeze quite some time before the final announce which is one
month at least before the boxes hit the shops) leave us with only
alsa-0.5.

the main goal was to have more drivers, not providing library we know
api would have been altered the next week.

then, our salesmen sell these boxes to shops, oem, ...

after that, if one vendor ship a distro which hw he has no driver for
is stupid (but as i don't know which configuration were shipped by
microtel, i don't know the exact problem), it's his problem.



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