From: "Joshua Peisach" <jpeisach@ubuntu.com>
To: "Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, <lyude@redhat.com>
Cc: "Troy Benjegerdes" <hozer@hozed.org>,
"Theodore Tso" <tytso@mit.edu>,
"Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)" <ljs@kernel.org>,
"Laurent Pinchart" <laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com>,
"Krzysztof Kozlowski" <krzk@kernel.org>,
"Sasha Levin" <sashal@kernel.org>, <corbet@lwn.net>,
<skhan@linuxfoundation.org>, <rdunlap@infradead.org>,
<federico.vaga@vaga.pv.it>, <apw@canonical.com>,
<joe@perches.com>, <workflows@vger.kernel.org>,
<linux-doc@vger.kernel.org>, <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
"Greg Kroah-Hartman" <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
"Justin Stitt" <justinstitt@google.com>,
"Carlos Maiolino" <cem@kernel.org>,
"Jakub Kicinski" <kuba@kernel.org>,
"Jori Koolstra" <jkoolstra@xs4all.nl>,
"Brian Foster" <bfoster@redhat.com>,
"Christoph Hellwig" <hch@infradead.org>,
"David Disseldorp" <ddiss@suse.de>,
"Mark Brown" <broonie@kernel.org>,
"Jani Nikula" <jani.nikula@intel.com>,
"Jens Axboe" <axboe@kernel.dk>,
"David Hildenbrand (Arm)" <david@kernel.org>,
"Vlastimil Babka" <vbabka@kernel.org>,
"Christian Brauner (Amutable)" <brauner@kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] docs: remove Assisted-by references
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2026 15:53:48 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <DMF17B2ZLUVC.3FQPOG5TPIX@ubuntu.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHk-=wgm4tZBd68PxaQiGeComxa9Us-SC5P2s6UG1Dwu8n_38Q@mail.gmail.com>
On Mon Oct 26, 2026 at 3:39 PM EDT, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2026 at 09:04, <lyude@redhat.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 2026-10-21 at 16:07 +0000, Troy Benjegerdes wrote:
>> >
>> > It *is* possible to make a deterministic LLM, and this is why I think
>> > it
>> > is critical to my personal future to have an LLM that can actually be
>> > understood by a human instead of a random number generator casino
>> > that
>> > sometimes puts "4" in your private key.
>>
>> I hate to break it to you but that is literally not how large language
>> models work.
>
> More importantly than that - the whole "deterministic" part is a total
> red herring.
>
> We shouldn't even reply to that idiotic argument.
>
It's not idiotic. Would it be considered non-deterministic for a human
to intentionally add a line of code causing a kernel panic for no
reason at all? Or an LLM telling me to jump off a bridge?
When it comes to human development, people *know* what they are putting
in. An LLM does not think about the words it is spitting out.
> Why? Nobody is arguing that we should stop take human patches because
> "they aren't deterministic".
>
Except humans want to actually contribute to the kernel, not make their
slavemaster happy.
> So anybody who thinks we shouldn't use LLM as tools because of that
> reason is just being dishonest. It's just a disguise for "I don't like
> AI". It's not an argument, it's a complete strawman.
>
> We have had non-deterministic tools in the past. One trivial example
> of that is just different compiler versions that have slightly
> different instruction weights or just different rules. Even when they
> are individually deterministic the end result is effectively that
> different people will get different results.
>
> And not all tools have even been individually deterministic - actual
> real non-deterministic behavior exists in non-LLM tools either becasue
> they have timing issues or are explicitly using random numbers as a
> way to get their results: Monte Carlo simulations is a very real
> thing.
>
> And yes, non-determinism adds a wrinkle to things and it's something
> that needs to be taken into account (and people often add things like
> explicit seeds to avoid it when they need explicit determinism from
> otherwise non-deterministic algorithms). So non-determinism is
> something that should be weighed as a factor against what else the
> tools brings you.
>
> But it's not actually an argument against LLM's.
>
> Linus
Well said. But also, we won't be able to "submit bug reports to LLMs"
like for years people have submitted bug reports to compilers.
-Josh
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2026-10-26 19:54 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 82+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2026-10-09 8:31 [PATCH] docs: remove Assisted-by references Sasha Levin
2026-10-09 9:38 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-09 10:09 ` Sasha Levin
2026-10-09 10:05 ` Krzysztof Kozlowski
2026-10-09 10:24 ` Greg KH
2026-10-09 15:20 ` Jonathan Corbet
2026-10-11 1:04 ` Steven Rostedt
2026-10-12 15:42 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 11:19 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 12:38 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 12:50 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 13:01 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 13:24 ` Ricardo B. Marlière (SUSE)
2026-10-13 12:49 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 17:16 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 12:31 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 12:59 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 13:04 ` Krzysztof Kozlowski
2026-10-13 13:07 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 13:12 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 13:29 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 13:37 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 14:52 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 14:54 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 14:58 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 17:12 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 17:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 19:25 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 20:16 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 20:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2026-10-14 13:56 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-16 14:19 ` Matthew Brost
2026-10-17 17:42 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2026-10-19 17:41 ` lyude
2026-10-14 18:47 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-15 23:14 ` Jeremy Dean Clifton
2026-10-13 15:02 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 16:58 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 17:32 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-16 16:14 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-20 21:15 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-21 2:54 ` Theodore Tso
2026-10-21 16:21 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2026-10-23 16:44 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-25 21:32 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-26 9:45 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-14 3:23 ` Theodore Tso
2026-10-14 11:23 ` Mark Brown
2026-10-14 13:08 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-14 13:42 ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-14 14:15 ` Mark Brown
2026-10-19 22:44 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-20 4:28 ` Theodore Tso
2026-10-19 16:32 ` lyude
2026-10-21 16:07 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2026-10-26 19:04 ` lyude
2026-10-26 19:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2026-10-26 19:53 ` Joshua Peisach [this message]
2026-10-26 20:24 ` lyude
2026-10-26 21:29 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-19 22:24 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-19 16:26 ` lyude
2026-10-16 18:26 ` Ihor Solodrai
2026-10-19 16:21 ` lyude
2026-10-13 4:24 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 5:56 ` Randy Dunlap
2026-10-13 6:18 ` Greg KH
2026-10-13 8:25 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 12:28 ` [PATCH] docs: remove Assisted-by reference Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 12:55 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 13:03 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 13:10 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 13:20 ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 13:55 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-19 16:50 ` lyude
2026-10-13 15:18 ` Mark Brown
2026-10-13 17:07 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 20:01 ` Shuah Khan
2026-10-19 16:15 ` lyude
2026-10-22 13:20 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2026-10-23 17:36 ` lyude
2026-10-26 19:58 ` [PATCH] docs: remove Assisted-by references Joshua Peisach
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