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From: "Joshua Peisach" <jpeisach@ubuntu.com>
To: "Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, <lyude@redhat.com>
Cc: "Troy Benjegerdes" <hozer@hozed.org>,
	"Theodore Tso" <tytso@mit.edu>,
	"Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)" <ljs@kernel.org>,
	"Laurent Pinchart" <laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com>,
	"Krzysztof Kozlowski" <krzk@kernel.org>,
	"Sasha Levin" <sashal@kernel.org>, <corbet@lwn.net>,
	<skhan@linuxfoundation.org>, <rdunlap@infradead.org>,
	<federico.vaga@vaga.pv.it>, <apw@canonical.com>,
	<joe@perches.com>, <workflows@vger.kernel.org>,
	<linux-doc@vger.kernel.org>, <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	"Greg Kroah-Hartman" <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	"Justin Stitt" <justinstitt@google.com>,
	"Carlos Maiolino" <cem@kernel.org>,
	"Jakub Kicinski" <kuba@kernel.org>,
	"Jori Koolstra" <jkoolstra@xs4all.nl>,
	"Brian Foster" <bfoster@redhat.com>,
	"Christoph Hellwig" <hch@infradead.org>,
	"David Disseldorp" <ddiss@suse.de>,
	"Mark Brown" <broonie@kernel.org>,
	"Jani Nikula" <jani.nikula@intel.com>,
	"Jens Axboe" <axboe@kernel.dk>,
	"David Hildenbrand (Arm)" <david@kernel.org>,
	"Vlastimil Babka" <vbabka@kernel.org>,
	"Christian Brauner (Amutable)" <brauner@kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] docs: remove Assisted-by references
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2026 15:53:48 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <DMF17B2ZLUVC.3FQPOG5TPIX@ubuntu.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHk-=wgm4tZBd68PxaQiGeComxa9Us-SC5P2s6UG1Dwu8n_38Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon Oct 26, 2026 at 3:39 PM EDT, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2026 at 09:04, <lyude@redhat.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 2026-10-21 at 16:07 +0000, Troy Benjegerdes wrote:
>> >
>> > It *is* possible to make a deterministic LLM, and this is why I think
>> > it
>> > is critical to my personal future to have an LLM that can actually be
>> > understood by a human instead of a random number generator casino
>> > that
>> > sometimes puts "4" in your private key.
>>
>> I hate to break it to you but that is literally not how large language
>> models work.
>
> More importantly than that - the whole "deterministic" part is a total
> red herring.
>
> We shouldn't even reply to that idiotic argument.
>
It's not idiotic. Would it be considered non-deterministic for a human
to intentionally add a line of code causing a kernel panic for no
reason at all? Or an LLM telling me to jump off a bridge?

When it comes to human development, people *know* what they are putting
in. An LLM does not think about the words it is spitting out.
> Why? Nobody is arguing that we should stop take human patches because
> "they aren't deterministic".
>

Except humans want to actually contribute to the kernel, not make their
slavemaster happy.

> So anybody who thinks we shouldn't use LLM as tools because of that
> reason is just being dishonest. It's just a disguise for "I don't like
> AI". It's not an argument, it's a complete strawman.
>
> We have had non-deterministic tools in the past. One trivial example
> of that is just different compiler versions that have slightly
> different instruction weights or just different rules. Even when they
> are individually deterministic the end result is effectively that
> different people will get different results.
>
> And not all tools have even been individually deterministic - actual
> real non-deterministic behavior exists in non-LLM tools either becasue
> they have timing issues or are explicitly using random numbers as a
> way to get their results: Monte Carlo simulations is a very real
> thing.
>
> And yes, non-determinism adds a wrinkle to things and it's something
> that needs to be taken into account (and people often add things like
> explicit seeds to avoid it when they need explicit determinism from
> otherwise non-deterministic algorithms). So non-determinism is
> something that should be weighed as a factor against what else the
> tools brings you.
>
> But it's not actually an argument against LLM's.
>
>               Linus

Well said. But also, we won't be able to "submit bug reports to LLMs"
like for years people have submitted bug reports to compilers.

-Josh

  reply	other threads:[~2026-10-26 19:54 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 82+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2026-10-09  8:31 [PATCH] docs: remove Assisted-by references Sasha Levin
2026-10-09  9:38 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-09 10:09   ` Sasha Levin
2026-10-09 10:05 ` Krzysztof Kozlowski
2026-10-09 10:24   ` Greg KH
2026-10-09 15:20   ` Jonathan Corbet
2026-10-11  1:04     ` Steven Rostedt
2026-10-12 15:42   ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 11:19     ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 12:38       ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 12:50         ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 13:01           ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 13:24         ` Ricardo B. Marlière (SUSE)
2026-10-13 12:49       ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 17:16         ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 12:31     ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 12:59       ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 13:04         ` Krzysztof Kozlowski
2026-10-13 13:07           ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 13:12         ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 13:29           ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 13:37             ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 14:52             ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 14:54               ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 14:58               ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 17:12                 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 17:42                   ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 19:25                     ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 20:16                       ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 20:45                         ` Linus Torvalds
2026-10-14 13:56                           ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-16 14:19                             ` Matthew Brost
2026-10-17 17:42                               ` Troy Benjegerdes
2026-10-19 17:41                           ` lyude
2026-10-14 18:47                         ` Kees Cook
2026-10-15 23:14                           ` Jeremy Dean Clifton
2026-10-13 15:02               ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-13 16:58                 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 17:32             ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-16 16:14               ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-20 21:15                 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-21  2:54                   ` Theodore Tso
2026-10-21 16:21                     ` Troy Benjegerdes
2026-10-23 16:44                   ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-25 21:32                     ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-26  9:45                       ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-14  3:23             ` Theodore Tso
2026-10-14 11:23               ` Mark Brown
2026-10-14 13:08               ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-14 13:42               ` Lorenzo Stoakes (ARM)
2026-10-14 14:15                 ` Mark Brown
2026-10-19 22:44                 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-20  4:28                   ` Theodore Tso
2026-10-19 16:32               ` lyude
2026-10-21 16:07                 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2026-10-26 19:04                   ` lyude
2026-10-26 19:39                     ` Linus Torvalds
2026-10-26 19:53                       ` Joshua Peisach [this message]
2026-10-26 20:24                       ` lyude
2026-10-26 21:29                       ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-19 22:24               ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-19 16:26             ` lyude
2026-10-16 18:26           ` Ihor Solodrai
2026-10-19 16:21           ` lyude
2026-10-13  4:24 ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13  5:56   ` Randy Dunlap
2026-10-13  6:18     ` Greg KH
2026-10-13  8:25     ` Kees Cook
2026-10-13 12:28       ` [PATCH] docs: remove Assisted-by reference Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 12:55         ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 13:03           ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 13:10             ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 13:20               ` Jori Koolstra
2026-10-13 13:55                 ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-19 16:50                 ` lyude
2026-10-13 15:18           ` Mark Brown
2026-10-13 17:07             ` Laurent Pinchart
2026-10-13 20:01               ` Shuah Khan
2026-10-19 16:15         ` lyude
2026-10-22 13:20           ` Troy Benjegerdes
2026-10-23 17:36             ` lyude
2026-10-26 19:58 ` [PATCH] docs: remove Assisted-by references Joshua Peisach

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