RE: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions

RE: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions

[McFadden, Ken]

Once again, We are doing this for NSA and GNU NOT SECURE COMPUTING!!!!!!!
If Tom has a problem then they need to address it with the NSA and the 
NSA can go forth and remove their crap or deem it as being GNU.....As I
see it SELinux will go on and if someone would like to use it then all
they would need to do is keep the original GNU licensing with it.....
Other words this is not our problem to work out but Tom's and NSA's........
Until then I would treat it as GNU per NSA's web page!!!!!!!




-----Original Message-----
From: Russell Coker [mailto:russell@coker.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 4:12 PM
To: JW; SE Linux
Cc: Haigh, Tom; 'Admissions Office'; Carsten Grohmann
Subject: Re: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions


On Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:49, JW wrote:
> Sorry about that last empty message, I accidently hit ^[ENTER] when I
meant
> hit shift...

You had written enough to clarify the issue (I don't know how I missed Tom's

message the first time).

> IANAL, but it is my understanding that you cannot restrict the use or
> distribution of GPLd Free Software. It simply does not work that way, no
> exceptions, no excuses. Once code is GPLd it is free for all to use. You
> can change the license on future versions of the code, but you cannot go
> back and restrict GPL's code "after the fact"

Yes.  Unless of course they claim that they didn't GPL it, or that the GPL 
only covers the code not the patent.

> 2. It will need to be removed from Debian's tree -- at least moved to
> non-free, yet as I said before, if Secure Computing is correct, SE-Linux
is
> not legal to use with GPL'd software anyway (at least the way I see it).

Stuff that.  I'm not putting this much work into non-free stuff!  If the 
license gets changed to anything other than the GPL then I'll immediately 
cease work and file critical bug reports against ftp.debian.org asking for 
the packages to be removed.  If Secure Computing want me to work on material

that's patented by them then they'll have to pay me at my usual consulting 
rates, plus back-pay for the last 6 months.

> You'd better bet that GNU and other people who's code is being modified to
> work with SE-Linux will have ten purple cows on anyone who mixes non-free
> code with their GPLd code.

The code can be still released as patches, but the problems of having them 
becoming obsolete and not matching the version your OS uses will remain.

Basically I think that SE Linux is as good as dead for anything other than 
research use if this patent gets enforced.

-- 
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Re: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions

[Admissions Office]

Ok but, lets not let emotions rule the day. The NSA has done us all a
service and we them. So in the true spirit of the internet lets work this
out.  Tom & I are playing phone tag but, we will speak.... And I bet we will
have something to report back. No big deal !
Really.


----- Original Message -----
From: "McFadden, Ken" <ken.mcfadden@lmco.com>
To: "'Russell Coker'" <russell@coker.com.au>; "JW" <jw@centraltexasit.com>;
"SE Linux" <selinux@tycho.nsa.gov>
Cc: "Haigh, Tom" <tom_haigh@securecomputing.com>; "'Admissions Office'"
<admissions@internet.edu.nf>; "Carsten Grohmann"
<carsten.grohmann@dr-baldeweg.de>
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 16:28
Subject: RE: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions


> Once again, We are doing this for NSA and GNU NOT SECURE COMPUTING!!!!!!!
> If Tom has a problem then they need to address it with the NSA and the
> NSA can go forth and remove their crap or deem it as being GNU.....As I
> see it SELinux will go on and if someone would like to use it then all
> they would need to do is keep the original GNU licensing with it.....
> Other words this is not our problem to work out but Tom's and
NSA's........
> Until then I would treat it as GNU per NSA's web page!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Russell Coker [mailto:russell@coker.com.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 4:12 PM
> To: JW; SE Linux
> Cc: Haigh, Tom; 'Admissions Office'; Carsten Grohmann
> Subject: Re: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions
>
>
> On Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:49, JW wrote:
> > Sorry about that last empty message, I accidently hit ^[ENTER] when I
> meant
> > hit shift...
>
> You had written enough to clarify the issue (I don't know how I missed
Tom's
>
> message the first time).
>
> > IANAL, but it is my understanding that you cannot restrict the use or
> > distribution of GPLd Free Software. It simply does not work that way, no
> > exceptions, no excuses. Once code is GPLd it is free for all to use. You
> > can change the license on future versions of the code, but you cannot go
> > back and restrict GPL's code "after the fact"
>
> Yes.  Unless of course they claim that they didn't GPL it, or that the GPL
> only covers the code not the patent.
>
> > 2. It will need to be removed from Debian's tree -- at least moved to
> > non-free, yet as I said before, if Secure Computing is correct, SE-Linux
> is
> > not legal to use with GPL'd software anyway (at least the way I see it).
>
> Stuff that.  I'm not putting this much work into non-free stuff!  If the
> license gets changed to anything other than the GPL then I'll immediately
> cease work and file critical bug reports against ftp.debian.org asking for
> the packages to be removed.  If Secure Computing want me to work on
material
>
> that's patented by them then they'll have to pay me at my usual consulting
> rates, plus back-pay for the last 6 months.
>
> > You'd better bet that GNU and other people who's code is being modified
to
> > work with SE-Linux will have ten purple cows on anyone who mixes
non-free
> > code with their GPLd code.
>
> The code can be still released as patches, but the problems of having them
> becoming obsolete and not matching the version your OS uses will remain.
>
> Basically I think that SE Linux is as good as dead for anything other than
> research use if this patent gets enforced.
>
> --
> I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software.
> If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your
> address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the
> >From field.
>
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Re: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions

[Russell Coker]

On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 03:34, Admissions Office wrote:
> Ok but, lets not let emotions rule the day. The NSA has done us all a
> service and we them. So in the true spirit of the internet lets work this
> out.  Tom & I are playing phone tag but, we will speak.... And I bet we
> will have something to report back. No big deal !
> Really.

You don't understand the issues.  The fact that you even have to make a 
single phone call in unacceptable to me, to the Debian project, and to the 
FSF.

This is a big deal.  Really.

-- 
I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software.
If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your
address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the
>From field.

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Re: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions

[Admissions Office]

> You don't understand the issues.  The fact that you even have to make a
> single phone call in unacceptable to me, to the Debian project, and to the
> FSF.
>
> This is a big deal.  Really.I do understand the "issues" and if they need
to be talked about - Great. In the many emails I see daily I have not seen
something talked about that really matter in over 5 years. I think that you
are all willing to talk shows just how much thought and consideration goes
into this. Its not about Linux or the NSA or any Open Source issues. At the
end of the day its about people. My intentions were to ask what I considered
to be a simple question. You people all impress me. Its good to be a part of
it all.


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Outside observer comments

[Paul Wolfson]

Hello,

I recently added myself to the SELinux listserver because of genuine shared
concerns about securing open source computing.  NSA is correct to be doing
this initiative and linux in its evolution will be better for it.

Now, from the few dozen emails that have come across my screen are any
indication, bickering is counter-productive.  It resembles government
procurement at its worst.  In that atmosphere I am afraid that there is
little that I will be able to contribute.  My company, is relatively new,
but has principal engineers who hold or have held DoD clearance at TS and
higher and would be interested in contributing to this effort.  If someone
on this list is a good POC let me know and perhaps we will be in a position
to help.

Perhaps this isn't the best forum to post such a blast as this, but its
intent at least is well meant.

Paul Wolfson, Ph.D.
Principal and President
Process and System Integration, Inc.
PO Box 118524
Carrollton, TX 75011-8524

----- Original Message -----
From: "McFadden, Ken" <ken.mcfadden@lmco.com>
To: "'Russell Coker'" <russell@coker.com.au>; "JW" <jw@centraltexasit.com>;
"SE Linux" <selinux@tycho.nsa.gov>
Cc: "Haigh, Tom" <tom_haigh@securecomputing.com>; "'Admissions Office'"
<admissions@internet.edu.nf>; "Carsten Grohmann"
<carsten.grohmann@dr-baldeweg.de>
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 5:28 PM
Subject: RE: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions


> Once again, We are doing this for NSA and GNU NOT SECURE COMPUTING!!!!!!!
> If Tom has a problem <<snip>> treat it as GNU per NSA's web page!!!!!!!
>



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Re: Outside observer comments

[Russell Coker]

On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 04:43, Paul Wolfson wrote:
> I recently added myself to the SELinux listserver because of genuine shared
> concerns about securing open source computing.  NSA is correct to be doing
> this initiative and linux in its evolution will be better for it.
>
> Now, from the few dozen emails that have come across my screen are any
> indication, bickering is counter-productive.  It resembles government

This is not bickering.  This is about a commercial organization threatening 
action which would permanently prevent me from doing any SE Linux work.  This 
is not a minor issue.

> procurement at its worst.  In that atmosphere I am afraid that there is
> little that I will be able to contribute.  My company, is relatively new,
> but has principal engineers who hold or have held DoD clearance at TS and
> higher and would be interested in contributing to this effort.  If someone
> on this list is a good POC let me know and perhaps we will be in a position
> to help.
>
> Perhaps this isn't the best forum to post such a blast as this, but its
> intent at least is well meant.

It's probably best to read more than a dozen messages before making 
judgements.  The last time there was any serious debate on this list was when 
we were discussing /usr/local last year.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "McFadden, Ken" <ken.mcfadden@lmco.com>
> To: "'Russell Coker'" <russell@coker.com.au>; "JW" <jw@centraltexasit.com>;
> "SE Linux" <selinux@tycho.nsa.gov>
> Cc: "Haigh, Tom" <tom_haigh@securecomputing.com>; "'Admissions Office'"
> <admissions@internet.edu.nf>; "Carsten Grohmann"
> <carsten.grohmann@dr-baldeweg.de>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 5:28 PM
> Subject: RE: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions
>
> > Once again, We are doing this for NSA and GNU NOT SECURE COMPUTING!!!!!!!
> > If Tom has a problem <<snip>> treat it as GNU per NSA's web page!!!!!!!

-- 
I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software.
If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your
address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the
>From field.

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Re: Outside observer comments

[JW]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 09:43 pm, you wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I recently added myself to the SELinux listserver because of genuine shared
> concerns about securing open source computing.  

Your very message would suggest that you have no idea what Open Source is all 
about.

I strongly suggest you go read the following:

http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.html (and all of 
http://www.opensource.org/, really)
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html


> NSA is correct to be doing
> this initiative and linux in its evolution will be better for it.

Yes, but that is not the issue. The issue is a third party is claiming patent 
and licensing rights over GPLd code.

> Now, from the few dozen emails that have come across my screen are any
> indication, bickering is counter-productive.  

That is only your opinion; and we are not bikering, we are asking for solid 
clarification of a bad situation. If Secure Computing is correct, then all 
work on SE-Linux to date is actually illegal, because non-Free work was 
mistakenly published under the GPL (if secure computing is correct), and that
is not legal (you cannot publish non-free work under a Free license such as 
the GPL).

Additionally, if Secure Computing is correct, it would suggest that whoever 
put the SE-Linux code under the GPL did not have the legal rights to do so 
(You can't publish as "Free" code/ideas that you are not the author of).

> It resembles government
> procurement at its worst.  

No, it resembles citizens defending themselves against corporate or 
governmental tyranny, and clarification of who's lying and who's not. The NSA 
and Secure Computing are saying 3 different things. Until today, everyone has 
been belive the NSA. Either Secure Computing or the NSA is dead wrong, and we 
need to know which one very soon, as it has serious implications either way. 
I am sure people who have contributed code to SE-Linux under the assumption 
that the NSA was telling the truth when they stated SE-Linux was Free are not 
going to be very happy to find that they have been deceived, and will 
probably want to retract thier contributions, which they have copyright 
ownership over.

> In that atmosphere I am afraid that there is
> little that I will be able to contribute. 

You don't seem to understand what a serious matter this is anyway, 
and contributing to a project without understanding it is a very bad idea. 
For your own sake, it is just as well that you not contribute.

> Perhaps this isn't the best forum to post such a blast as this, but its
> intent at least is well meant.

I appreciate your (no doubt) well-intended yet sadly misinformed message. 
Hopefully you will understand it all better in the future. I really do 
suggest you go read the URLs I mentioned above before attempting to 
contribute to a Free Software project. To do so without understanding what 
you are doing is not wise.

	JW


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Re: Outside observer comments

[Russell Coker]

On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 06:07, JW wrote:
> implications either way. I am sure people who have contributed code to
> SE-Linux under the assumption that the NSA was telling the truth when they
> stated SE-Linux was Free are not going to be very happy to find that they
> have been deceived, and will probably want to retract thier contributions,
> which they have copyright ownership over.

Such contributions can't be retracted.  However contributions to a GPL 
project can't be used in a non-GPL fashion without explicit authorisation, 
such authorisation won't be forthcoming for my work - so it will be used 
under the GPL or not at all.

Also if SE Linux was made non-free and people wrote non-free SE code that 
closely resembled GPL SE code then a copyright infringement suit could 
follow...

> > In that atmosphere I am afraid that there is
> > little that I will be able to contribute.
>
> You don't seem to understand what a serious matter this is anyway,
> and contributing to a project without understanding it is a very bad idea.
> For your own sake, it is just as well that you not contribute.

Let's not get nasty.  Breaching the rule of reading a list well before 
posting is a bad thing, but let's not flame them excessively.

-- 
I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software.
If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your
address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the
>From field.

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Re: Outside observer comments

[Tom]

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:43:16PM -0500, Paul Wolfson wrote:
> Now, from the few dozen emails that have come across my screen are any
> indication, bickering is counter-productive.

For all the time I've been on this list, this has been a one-time
flare. You probably joined at a bad moment, since everything else on
the list was very productive.

That said, the patent/license issue *is* a serious problem.


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SE Linux & Education

[Ryan Emge]

Hello everyone,

In response to the rants lately, I would like to say that I'm devoted to doing my part by subscribing to this listserv in order to learning the advantages of SE Linux and how it can be utilized in an educational environment at our University in Vermont. If there is anyone subscribed to this list that has put countless hours in researching and developing patches and other documenation that could be to my advantage, I would like to hear from you. I'd especially like to hear from some of the major contributors mentioned on NSA's SE Linux site such as NAI Labs, Secure Computing Corporation and MITRE Corporation.
-- 

Ryan O. Emge

Information Assurance & Security
Norwich University - http://www.norwich.edu
158 Harmon Drive
Northfield, VT 05663

An NSA "Center of Academic Excellence in Information Assurance"

E: emger@norwich.edu

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Re: SE Linux & Education

[Russell Coker]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 18:51, Ryan Emge wrote:
> In response to the rants lately, I would like to say that I'm devoted to
> doing my part by subscribing to this listserv in order to learning the
> advantages of SE Linux and how it can be utilized in an educational
> environment at our University in Vermont. If there is anyone subscribed to
> this list that has put countless hours in researching and developing
> patches and other documenation that could be to my advantage, I would like
> to hear from you.

I think that my Debian packages will work well in an educational environment. 
One particular advantage of Debian is that any student can become a developer 
and join in the project...

-- 
I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software.
If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your
address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the
>From field.

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Re: Sorry, read this one: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions

[Tom]

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:28:27PM -0600, McFadden, Ken wrote:
> Once again, We are doing this for NSA and GNU NOT SECURE COMPUTING!!!!!!!
> If Tom has a problem then they need to address it with the NSA and the 
> NSA can go forth and remove their crap or deem it as being GNU.....As I
> see it SELinux will go on and if someone would like to use it then all
> they would need to do is keep the original GNU licensing with it.....
> Other words this is not our problem to work out but Tom's and NSA's........
> Until then I would treat it as GNU per NSA's web page!!!!!!!

you should only do that if you live in a country free of software
patents. I'm fairly certain that a US court won't even listen to the
license argument if the suit is brought as a patent infringement suit.



(I'm the OTHER Tom :) )


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RE: SELinux Dumb Questions

[Roland.Jones]

Russell,

Your comments and clarifications are most enlightening and reflect my under standing of SELinux's use as open source code. I find this issue of private licensing confusing since I thought the whole idea was to get this technology into the community. The NSA's SELinux overview says the following at the end of the page:

		Security-enhanced Linux is being released under the same terms and conditions as the original 			sources. The release includes documentation and source code for both the system and some 			system utilities that were modified to make use of the new features. Participation with comments, 			constructive criticism, and/or improvements is welcome. 

It doesn't seem to me that NSA's intention was to restrict the deployment of this technology when they released SELinux. Any NSA types out there?


Roland


-----Original Message-----
From: ext Russell Coker [mailto:russell@coker.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 3:00 PM
To: jw@centraltexasit.com; selinux@tycho.nsa.gov
Cc: Haigh, Tom; 'Admissions Office'; Carsten Grohmann;
linux-security-module@wirex.com
Subject: Re: SELinux Dumb Questions


On Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:30, JW wrote:
> > On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:50, Admissions Office wrote:
> > > Folks this may seem like a dumb question given the Open Source and
> > > postings on the site. Its just that we want to be sure....
> > >
> > > Is there any reason why a Colo company cannot offer SELinux as a
> > > standard product offering they would install on clients servers?
> >
> > As Mark stated there are no license or legal issues preventing such use.
>
> On Monday 03 June 2002 04:13 pm, Haigh, Tom wrote:
> > SELinux includes Type Enforcement technology developed and patented by
> > the Secure Computing Corporation, who still holds rights to all
> > commercial use of the technology.  Before a colo company, or anyone else
> > uses the technology commercially, it will be necessary to negotiate a
> > license with Secure Computing.  If anyone wants to do so, I can help get
> > the ball rolling with our Legal and BD folks.

Let's look at the following URL:
http://www.securecomputing.com/archive/press/2000/nsa_faq_secure_linux.html

> Question 6: Will SCC use its patent on Type Enforcement TM to restrict use,
> future development, derivative work, or release of the source code of the
> system? 
>
> There will be no restrictions on the use of TE by the Linux open source
> community. We believe that leveraging the resources of the Linux community
> is the best way to develop robust security for Linux.

That seems like a clear statement that we can do what we like with it!

But Tom, if your company does want to go ahead with this patent plan then 
please do the following:

1)  Change that misleading web page.

2)  Let me know so I can remove all SE Linux code from Debian, remove it from 
my client's machines, and start work on a competing product.

3)  Make formal statements as to limitations of distribution etc, also 
clarify to what extent you want SE Linux code removed from the world.  Should 
I get the upstream maintainer of stat to remove the SE Linux code too?  Also 
you'll have to get it removed from LSM which is under the GPL, and you had 
better hope that the problems with building as a module are fixed quickly - 
you can't ship code that links with the kernel unless it's under the GPL.

PS  When does the patent expire?  If it's due to expire in 1 year or less we 
can just wait until it's gone...

-- 
I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software.
If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your
address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the
>From field.

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Re: Outside Observer Comments

[Paul Wolfson]

To  SELinux WG:

I am sorry for my jumping to conclusions based on a very short baseline of
email.  I hope that no offense has been taken.  I will stay on the sidelines
of what is obviously a very well thought out process.

Paul Wolfson


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