Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[STEFANG(GMX)]

Hallo list,

on Fre, 01 Feb 2002, Heinz J . Mauelshagen (mauelshagen@sistina.com) wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:05:56PM -0500, Jeff Layton wrote:
[...]
> > I've worked with Kevin a few months ago on using EVMS
> > to recover a filesystem ontop of LVM when a disk went
> > south and we had no backups
> 
> It is quite intersting how many people don't take backups even though
> almost everybody claims to know that backups are crucial and some of them
> know that they are still, even though they might have RAID in place.

You cannot replace Backups with a RAID system...a RAID system is
just fine to help you in cas of a hardware failure, but if a disk
driver/user/hacker goes wild you are in big trouble 'cause the data
is gone on all disks.  I had the very same discussion in many
companies; the MBA guys try to tell you there is no need for a
backup (Backup is essentially an unneeded "loss center" for them)
since they have installed a RAID system... ;-)

CU,
   Stefan
-- 
Stefan Giessler                                       e-mail:
sgiessler@gmx.net

artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[Heinz J . Mauelshagen]

On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:02:18AM +0100, STEFANG(GMX) wrote:
> Hallo list,
> 
> on Fre, 01 Feb 2002, Heinz J . Mauelshagen (mauelshagen@sistina.com) wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:05:56PM -0500, Jeff Layton wrote:
> [...]
> > > I've worked with Kevin a few months ago on using EVMS
> > > to recover a filesystem ontop of LVM when a disk went
> > > south and we had no backups
> > 
> > It is quite intersting how many people don't take backups even though
> > almost everybody claims to know that backups are crucial and some of them
> > know that they are still, even though they might have RAID in place.
> 
> You cannot replace Backups with a RAID system...

Which is exactly my point above ;-)

RAID DOES NOT REPLACE BACKUPS!

> a RAID system is
> just fine to help you in cas of a hardware failure, but if a disk
> driver/user/hacker goes wild you are in big trouble 'cause the data
> is gone on all disks.  I had the very same discussion in many
> companies; the MBA guys try to tell you there is no need for a
> backup (Backup is essentially an unneeded "loss center" for them)
> since they have installed a RAID system... ;-)
> 
> CU,
>    Stefan
> -- 
> Stefan Giessler                                       e-mail:
> sgiessler@gmx.net
> 
> artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
> 
> _______________________________________________
> linux-lvm mailing list
> linux-lvm@sistina.com
> http://lists.sistina.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
> read the LVM HOW-TO at http://www.sistina.com/lvm/Pages/howto.html

-- 

Regards,
Heinz    -- The LVM Guy --

*** Software bugs are stupid.
    Nevertheless it needs not so stupid people to solve them ***

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Heinz Mauelshagen                                 Sistina Software Inc.
Senior Consultant/Developer                       Am Sonnenhang 11
                                                  56242 Marienrachdorf
                                                  Germany
Mauelshagen@Sistina.com                           +49 2626 141200
                                                       FAX 924446
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[Steven Dake]

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Heinz J . Mauelshagen wrote:

>On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:02:18AM +0100, STEFANG(GMX) wrote:
>
>>Hallo list,
>>
>>on Fre, 01 Feb 2002, Heinz J . Mauelshagen (mauelshagen@sistina.com) wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:05:56PM -0500, Jeff Layton wrote:
>>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>>I've worked with Kevin a few months ago on using EVMS
>>>>to recover a filesystem ontop of LVM when a disk went
>>>>south and we had no backups
>>>>
>>>It is quite intersting how many people don't take backups even though
>>>almost everybody claims to know that backups are crucial and some of them
>>>know that they are still, even though they might have RAID in place.
>>>
>>You cannot replace Backups with a RAID system...
>>
>
>Which is exactly my point above ;-)
>
>RAID DOES NOT REPLACE BACKUPS!
>
If you have ever developed RAID solutions, you would know how right you 
are :)
-steve


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Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[STEFANG(GMX)]

Hallo list,

on Fre, 01 Feb 2002, Heinz J . Mauelshagen (mauelshagen@sistina.com) wrote:

> > > It is quite intersting how many people don't take backups even though
> > > almost everybody claims to know that backups are crucial and some of
them
> > > know that they are still, even though they might have RAID in place.
> > 
> > You cannot replace Backups with a RAID system...
> 
> Which is exactly my point above ;-)

So I got you wrong, sorry ;-)

> RAID DOES NOT REPLACE BACKUPS!

Full ACK.

CU,
   Stefan
-- 
Stefan Giessler                                       e-mail:
sgiessler@gmx.net

LET Jesus be YOUR anchor!

So when Satan rocks your boat, THROW Jesus overboard!

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementation ready for beta testing

[Steve Pratt]

Joe Thornber wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:03:40PM +0000, Jim McDonald wrote:
>> Also, does/where does this fit in with EVMS?

>EVMS differs from us in that they seem to be trying to move the whole
>application into the kernel,

No, not really.  We only put in the kernel the things that make sense to be
in the kernel, discovery logic, ioctl support, I/O path.  All configuration
is handled in user space.

> whereas we've taken the opposite route
>and stripped down the kernel side to just provide services.

Then why does snapshot.c in device mapper have a read_metadata function
which populates the exception table from on disk metadata?  Seems like you
agree with us that having metadata knowledge in the kernel is a GOOD thing.

>This is fine, I think there's room for both projects.  But it is worth
>noting that EVMS could be changed to use device-mapper for it's low
>level functionality.  That way they could take advantage of the cool
>work we're doing with snapshots and pvmove, and we could take
>advantage of having more eyes on the core driver.

Since device_mapper does not support in kernel discovery, and EVMS relies
on this, it would be very difficult to change EVMS to use device_mapper.
Besides, EVMS already has all the capabilities provided by device mapper,
including a complete LVM1 compatibility package.

>LVM2 may not seem that exciting initially, since the first release is
>just concentrating on reproducing LVM1 functionality.  But a lot of
>the reason for this rewrite is to enable us to add in the new features
>that we want (such as a transaction based disk format).  It's on this
>new feature list that we'll be mainly competing with EVMS.

Why compete, come on over and help us :-)

Steve


EVMS Development - http://www.sf.net/projects/evms
Linux Technology Center - IBM Corporation
(512) 838-9763  EMAIL: SLPratt@US.IBM.COM

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[Jeff Layton]

(snip)

>
> >LVM2 may not seem that exciting initially, since the first release is
> >just concentrating on reproducing LVM1 functionality.  But a lot of
> >the reason for this rewrite is to enable us to add in the new features
> >that we want (such as a transaction based disk format).  It's on this
> >new feature list that we'll be mainly competing with EVMS.
>
> Why compete, come on over and help us :-)

You guy man!

I've worked with Kevin a few months ago on using EVMS
to recover a filesystem ontop of LVM when a disk went
south and we had no backups (I know, but I was told by the
people in charge that backups were not needed - that's why
I left). I really like EVMS and can't wait for it to be in 2.5 and
then 2.6 (just keep up the patches for 2.4 please :)

Jeff Layton


>
>
> Steve
>
> EVMS Development - http://www.sf.net/projects/evms
> Linux Technology Center - IBM Corporation
> (512) 838-9763  EMAIL: SLPratt@US.IBM.COM
>
> _______________________________________________
> linux-lvm mailing list
> linux-lvm@sistina.com
> http://lists.sistina.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
> read the LVM HOW-TO at http://www.sistina.com/lvm/Pages/howto.html

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[Heinz J . Mauelshagen]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:05:56PM -0500, Jeff Layton wrote:
> (snip)
> 
> >
> > >LVM2 may not seem that exciting initially, since the first release is
> > >just concentrating on reproducing LVM1 functionality.  But a lot of
> > >the reason for this rewrite is to enable us to add in the new features
> > >that we want (such as a transaction based disk format).  It's on this
> > >new feature list that we'll be mainly competing with EVMS.
> >
> > Why compete, come on over and help us :-)
> 
> You guy man!
> 
> I've worked with Kevin a few months ago on using EVMS
> to recover a filesystem ontop of LVM when a disk went
> south and we had no backups

It is quite intersting how many people don't take backups even though
almost everybody claims to know that backups are crucial and some of them
know that they are still, even though they might have RAID in place.

Well I guess it, but you didn't mention if you had success to recover.

Was it quorum (we are implementing it with LVM2 BTW) which helped and have
you been lucky that at least a part of your LVs where sitting on other than the
gone disk? Otherwise you probably had your VG back but no usable data.

> (I know, but I was told by the
> people in charge that backups were not needed - that's why
> I left).

Probably a good choice to leave if they don't understand such basics
and you couldn't convince them.


> I really like EVMS and can't wait for it to be in 2.5 and
> then 2.6 (just keep up the patches for 2.4 please :)

EVMS hallelujah on linux-lvm? ;-)

> 
> Jeff Layton
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > EVMS Development - http://www.sf.net/projects/evms
> > Linux Technology Center - IBM Corporation
> > (512) 838-9763  EMAIL: SLPratt@US.IBM.COM
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > linux-lvm mailing list
> > linux-lvm@sistina.com
> > http://lists.sistina.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
> > read the LVM HOW-TO at http://www.sistina.com/lvm/Pages/howto.html
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> linux-lvm mailing list
> linux-lvm@sistina.com
> http://lists.sistina.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
> read the LVM HOW-TO at http://www.sistina.com/lvm/Pages/howto.html

-- 

Regards,
Heinz    -- The LVM Guy --

*** Software bugs are stupid.
    Nevertheless it needs not so stupid people to solve them ***

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Heinz Mauelshagen                                 Sistina Software Inc.
Senior Consultant/Developer                       Am Sonnenhang 11
                                                  56242 Marienrachdorf
                                                  Germany
Mauelshagen@Sistina.com                           +49 2626 141200
                                                       FAX 924446
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[Jeff Layton]

"Heinz J . Mauelshagen" wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:05:56PM -0500, Jeff Layton wrote:
> > (snip)
> >
> > >
> > > >LVM2 may not seem that exciting initially, since the first release is
> > > >just concentrating on reproducing LVM1 functionality.  But a lot of
> > > >the reason for this rewrite is to enable us to add in the new features
> > > >that we want (such as a transaction based disk format).  It's on this
> > > >new feature list that we'll be mainly competing with EVMS.
> > >
> > > Why compete, come on over and help us :-)
> >
> > You guy man!
> >
> > I've worked with Kevin a few months ago on using EVMS
> > to recover a filesystem ontop of LVM when a disk went
> > south and we had no backups
>
> It is quite intersting how many people don't take backups even though
> almost everybody claims to know that backups are crucial and some of them
> know that they are still, even though they might have RAID in place.

I was ordered by my management NOT to make backups or
I would be fired (exact words). So, I didn't. I told everyone
concerned that we HAD to have backups and follow corporate
policy. Everyone said thank you and go away. So I did.


>
>
> Well I guess it, but you didn't mention if you had success to recover.
>
> Was it quorum (we are implementing it with LVM2 BTW) which helped and have
> you been lucky that at least a part of your LVs where sitting on other than the
> gone disk? Otherwise you probably had your VG back but no usable data.

Actually, we had partial success and got back most data. Then
on a whim we tried the bad drive again, and BINGO it came back
to life! I tried every trick I know to get that drive back and spoke
with the vendor that agreed I did everything they knew how to
do. Then another admin walked in, popped it back in the case and
and it came back. I had the biggest egg on my face! Oh well, at least
we got the data back.


>
>
> > (I know, but I was told by the
> > people in charge that backups were not needed - that's why
> > I left).
>
> Probably a good choice to leave if they don't understand such basics
> and you couldn't convince them.

<vent>

My manager at that time couldn't spell UNIX, doesn't have a college
degree of any type and has never taken a single college course. My lead
admin can only spell "Sun" even though he claims to have a Linux box at
home and is pretty much hated by all UNIX/Linux admins (as well as
most NT admins as well). He is the king of micro managers (and I have
seen plenty of these in the aerospace industry).

Thanks for the venting time and space. I apologize.

</vent>


>
>
> > I really like EVMS and can't wait for it to be in 2.5 and
> > then 2.6 (just keep up the patches for 2.4 please :)
>
> EVMS hallelujah on linux-lvm? ;-)

I like EVMS and it's concepts. However, I'm currently using LVM
(I learned LVM on HPUX, so it was trivial to move to LVM on
Linux!). So, I guess you could say that I started with LVM - like it,
use it, depend on it; moving on to EVMS after some experimentation
and testing. I hope the two  merge at some point to avoid
proprietary-isms that seem to be coming.

Plus, I'm interested in the Open Cluster Framework
developments with EVMS. I don't know if these kinds of
things are happening with LVM or not.

Jeff


>
>
> >
> > Jeff Layton
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > EVMS Development - http://www.sf.net/projects/evms
> > > Linux Technology Center - IBM Corporation
> > > (512) 838-9763  EMAIL: SLPratt@US.IBM.COM
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > linux-lvm mailing list
> > > linux-lvm@sistina.com
> > > http://lists.sistina.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
> > > read the LVM HOW-TO at http://www.sistina.com/lvm/Pages/howto.html
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > linux-lvm mailing list
> > linux-lvm@sistina.com
> > http://lists.sistina.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
> > read the LVM HOW-TO at http://www.sistina.com/lvm/Pages/howto.html
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Heinz    -- The LVM Guy --
>
> *** Software bugs are stupid.
>     Nevertheless it needs not so stupid people to solve them ***
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Heinz Mauelshagen                                 Sistina Software Inc.
> Senior Consultant/Developer                       Am Sonnenhang 11
>                                                   56242 Marienrachdorf
>                                                   Germany
> Mauelshagen@Sistina.com                           +49 2626 141200
>                                                        FAX 924446
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> _______________________________________________
> linux-lvm mailing list
> linux-lvm@sistina.com
> http://lists.sistina.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
> read the LVM HOW-TO at http://www.sistina.com/lvm/Pages/howto.html

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[James Hawtin]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Heinz J . Mauelshagen wrote:

> 
> It is quite intersting how many people don't take backups even though
> almost everybody claims to know that backups are crucial and some of them
> know that they are still, even though they might have RAID in place.
> 

I think the reason most people don't do backups is because, hard disk
drives are really big and really cheap. Tape drives are really expensive,
media is also expensive and frankly tapes are very small for the cost.
Effective backup can double the cost of a system and requires time to
manage it.

For the "home" market its just to much. The only system just about
affordable is DAT tape, DLT blanks are about double the cost for the
storage ammount. I bought a DDS4 drive for "home" use, 1 week after I got
it I had my laptop stolen, so it justified its cost pretty fast :-) A 60
gig hard disk, costing 100 pounds requires 2-3 DSS4 tapes to backup At 15
pounds each, one round of backups cost 1/3 of the cost of the disk
multiply that by the number of disks, add in the hassle factor of changing
tapes. Auto changers are nice, but alot more! For "PC" based systems the
backup costs are oftain higher than the price of the machine, and thats
hard for people to justify.

If anyone suggests they use "hard drives" to back up I will scream, cost
that system just don't scale, and yup you have an old copy but do people
ever update it? Yes... when they get another hard drive... however before
that happens they have put the old on back into service because they
needed a little more space ;-)

All in all, backup is expensive/slow, my sister/mom/dad ain't going to pay
that kind of money for home... For Work its slow, fine if your a sysadmin
and that your job... If you are a sysadmin you probably don't get to do
bugets, your manager does, and they don't understand the cost and aways
want to cut corners to keep costs down, XXX is a "developement" system so
we don't need to back it up cos its not "production" etc etc. Store all
your data on the network file server, (which is aways full with p0rn) and
connected via a doggie network, taping 3 minutes to access the smallest
file, so people store data on the local machine, and forget to copy it
back to the network...

This why people don't have backups in my book.

Sorry I didn't mean this to become a rant, just got on a roll...

James

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[Patrick Caulfield]

On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 02:03:20PM +0000, James Hawtin wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Heinz J . Mauelshagen wrote:
> 
> > 
> > It is quite intersting how many people don't take backups even though
> > almost everybody claims to know that backups are crucial and some of them
> > know that they are still, even though they might have RAID in place.
> > 
> 

> <snip>

They are not reasons, they are excuses. If you value your data you take backups.

patrick

Re: [linux-lvm] Re: [lvm-devel] [ANNOUNCE] LVM reimplementationre ady for beta testing

[Jesus Manuel NAVARRO LOPEZ]

Hi, James:

James Hawtin wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Heinz J . Mauelshagen wrote:
> 
> 
>>It is quite intersting how many people don't take backups even though
>>almost everybody claims to know that backups are crucial and some of them
>>know that they are still, even though they might have RAID in place.
>>
>>
> 
> I think the reason most people don't do backups is because, hard disk
> drives are really big and really cheap. Tape drives are really expensive,
> media is also expensive and frankly tapes are very small for the cost.
> Effective backup can double the cost of a system and requires time to
> manage it.
> 


Yes.  That's true... as you say, for grandma's PC.  Backups (and all the 
other disaster/recovery plans) are defensive, so they *must* be 
cost-effective solutions.  *If* you really don't care loosing a week's 
data or even all the data, and with low probability you just can go with 
hard-drive backups or even without backups at all... if you *really* 
know that there's not *if* you're going to loose data, but *when*, and 
accept it.


> For the "home" market its just to much. The only system just about


It is too much *work*, not money: five to twelve zip "disks" (100/250MB 
each) is usually more than enough for incremental backups.  Well planned 
you don't need full backups... you don't need full backups for programs 
you already have in another media (like your programs' original CD's) 
you don't need backups for cold-storable data (six month old MP3 you 
just listen from time to time) you just burn a CD from time to time... 
at the end only personal data is *needed* to be backuped and this is 
*usually* able to fit on one/two zips.  The problem is the time and the 
savvyness to plan it (in advance).  The same goes with any other 
insurance system: for most people you just insurance if you're legally 
enforced, or it's the "common" way (like the health care insurance in USA).

...But the other guy was talking about a *professional* environment.


> affordable is DAT tape, DLT blanks are about double the cost for the
> storage ammount. I bought a DDS4 drive for "home" use, 1 week after I got
> it I had my laptop stolen, so it justified its cost pretty fast :-) A 60
> gig hard disk, costing 100 pounds requires 2-3 DSS4 tapes to backup At 15
> pounds each, one round of backups cost 1/3 of the cost of the disk
> multiply that by the number of disks, add in the hassle factor of changing
> tapes. Auto changers are nice, but alot more! For "PC" based systems the
> backup costs are oftain higher than the price of the machine, and thats
> hard for people to justify.
> 


Hard drives are *not* cheaper.  Indeed they're more expensive by far!!!
You seem to consider that a single copy on the same system can be 
considered a backup, but it is not:
*If you don't have incrementals for a variable amount of time you have 
just crap
*If your backup media is around the system to be protected you just have 
crap

So, for HDDs to be a *real* backup solution, you need as many HDDs as 
you would have tapes (say 10 to 20) so you can have, let's say, daily 
incrementals, placed in-house, weekly "bigs" somehow "near", and monthly 
off-site.  Now, tapes are cheaper than disks, so if you need to have the 
same amount (more or less) disks will be more expensive... and, 
remember, that, while statically-placed disks are more confiable than 
tapes, that's not true as soon as you start moving them here and there. 
  Obviously you can go with PCMCIA disks, but they're *a lot* more 
expensive.


> If anyone suggests they use "hard drives" to back up I will scream, cost
> that system just don't scale, and yup you have an old copy but do people
> ever update it? Yes... when they get another hard drive... however before
> that happens they have put the old on back into service because they
> needed a little more space ;-)
> 


This is true too.


> All in all, backup is expensive/slow, my sister/mom/dad ain't going to pay
> that kind of money for home... For Work its slow, fine if your a sysadmin


They're expensive *by definition* (just in the same way any other 
insurance is: it doesn't *produce* anything).  Anyway, probably your 
mom's life doesn't deppend on data on her home PC, so it's fine going 
with no backup at all, or burning a CD from time to time.


> and that your job... If you are a sysadmin you probably don't get to do
> bugets, your manager does, and they don't understand the cost and aways
> want to cut corners to keep costs down, XXX is a "developement" system so
> we don't need to back it up cos its not "production" etc etc. Store all
> your data on the network file server, (which is aways full with p0rn) and
> connected via a doggie network, taping 3 minutes to access the smallest
> file, so people store data on the local machine, and forget to copy it
> back to the network...
> 


Truly enough: idiocy doesn't pay.


> This why people don't have backups in my book.
> 


And I'm with you.

-- 
SALUD,
Jes�s
***
jesus_navarro@promofinarsa.es
***