Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain

Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain

[Andrew Walrond]

I have to make buying decisions, and having tested a Sun T1000 for a
while I am impressed with Suns hardware. But, we are 100% gnu/linux and
it disturbs me that David Miller seems to be a (very impressive) team of
1 on the sparclinux ML (My impression; perhaps I am wrong?)

So I wonder, is Sun putting any more effort into developing and
supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain?

[Apologies for slightly off-topic post]

Andrew Walrond

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[David Miller]

From: Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:37:03 +0100

> I have to make buying decisions, and having tested a Sun T1000 for a
> while I am impressed with Suns hardware. But, we are 100% gnu/linux and
> it disturbs me that David Miller seems to be a (very impressive) team of
> 1 on the sparclinux ML (My impression; perhaps I am wrong?)
> 
> So I wonder, is Sun putting any more effort into developing and
> supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain?

They are sending me specs and systems very early these days,
so in that perspective it's been great.

I do also have contacts which I use to report firmware and
hypervisor issues I'd like fixed or clarified, so that's great
too.

I tend to do the processor specific gcc instruction scheduler
and costs entries, and adding the new instruction support to
binutils as well.

So no, Sun really isn't helping with any actual development.

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[Andrew Walrond]

David Miller wrote:
> 
> So no, Sun really isn't helping with any actual development.
> 

I don't know what to say. Incredible work David, but quite frankly, I'm
speechless.

I'm sure I can't be the only hardware purchaser asking these questions.
I really like the Niagra and the successors sound even better, but I
can't recommend buying into the platform without solid support for the
OS and toolchain from Sun.

I'm trying to conceive a valid business reason for Sun to be so
dismissive of the (surely massive?) gnu/linux hardware market, (even if
they would rather we used Solaris), but it eludes me completely.

Andrew Walrond

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[Gordan Bobic]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007, Andrew Walrond wrote:

> David Miller wrote:
>>
>> So no, Sun really isn't helping with any actual development.
>>
>
> I don't know what to say. Incredible work David, but quite frankly, I'm
> speechless.
>
> I'm sure I can't be the only hardware purchaser asking these questions.
> I really like the Niagra and the successors sound even better, but I
> can't recommend buying into the platform without solid support for the
> OS and toolchain from Sun.

Sun have their own, compiler, though.

> I'm trying to conceive a valid business reason for Sun to be so
> dismissive of the (surely massive?) gnu/linux hardware market, (even if
> they would rather we used Solaris), but it eludes me completely.

Because given the price of their hardware, the only people who can afford 
it are enterprise customers, and Solaris is a more "enterprisey" solution. 
If I had to guess, that is...

Gordan

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[Tim Prince]

Andrew Walrond wrote:

> 
> I'm trying to conceive a valid business reason for Sun to be so
> dismissive of the (surely massive?) gnu/linux hardware market, (even if
> they would rather we used Solaris), but it eludes me completely.
They are putting a lot of effort into linux on Intel and AMD. 18 years
ago, SPARC was their one true way, but a few years have passed.

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain on sparc64 ?

[Lijuan Hai]

Maybe you would find what you want at the following URL:
http://www.sun.com/download/products.xml?idF448222

gccfss means 'GCC for SPARC System'

2007/9/12, Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>:
> I have to make buying decisions, and having tested a Sun T1000 for a
> while I am impressed with Suns hardware. But, we are 100% gnu/linux and
> it disturbs me that David Miller seems to be a (very impressive) team of
> 1 on the sparclinux ML (My impression; perhaps I am wrong?)
>
> So I wonder, is Sun putting any more effort into developing and
> supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain?
>
> [Apologies for slightly off-topic post]
>
> Andrew Walrond
>


-- 
        Best wishes!
Yours,
Lijuan Hai
  _  _
  (_)(_)
   (,,)
  =() ((__)\
   _|L\_______/

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain

[Sunil Amitkumar Janki]

Lijuan Hai wrote:
> Maybe you would find what you want at the following URL:
> http://www.sun.com/download/products.xml?idF448222
>
> gccfss means 'GCC for SPARC System'
>
> 2007/9/12, Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>:
>   
>> I have to make buying decisions, and having tested a Sun T1000 for a
>> while I am impressed with Suns hardware. But, we are 100% gnu/linux and
>> it disturbs me that David Miller seems to be a (very impressive) team of
>> 1 on the sparclinux ML (My impression; perhaps I am wrong?)
>>
>> So I wonder, is Sun putting any more effort into developing and
>> supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain?
>>
>> [Apologies for slightly off-topic post]
>>
>> Andrew Walrond
>>
>>     
>
>
>   

(even more off-topic)

Hi,

That's also what I thought at first. Sun putting effort into
GCC on SPARC to the benefit of GCC itself. But this is not
what it seems to be.

As far as I know, GCC for SPARC appears to be a front end
to the Sun Studio compiler which happens to translate GCC
flags to ones suitable for their own compiler.

Sunil

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[David Miller]

From: Sunil Amitkumar Janki <devel.sjanki@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:16:00 +0200

> As far as I know, GCC for SPARC appears to be a front end
> to the Sun Studio compiler which happens to translate GCC
> flags to ones suitable for their own compiler.

That's correct, it's essentially GCC's language front ends
plugged into Sun's compiler backend.

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain

[Andrew Walrond]

David Miller wrote:
> 
> That's correct, it's essentially GCC's language front ends
> plugged into Sun's compiler backend.
> -

And presumably is solaris only doesn't work under gnu/linux?

Andrew Walrond

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[Andrew Walrond]

David Miller wrote:
> 
> So no, Sun really isn't helping with any actual development.
> 

Sun have some sort of deal with Ubuntu to support the Niagara, don't
they? Presumably the Canonical people have some developers working on
(and contributing to) the (sparc64) gnu toolchain and linux kernel as
part of that deal?

Andrew Walrond

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain on sparc64 ?

[Eric Botcazou]

> Sun have some sort of deal with Ubuntu to support the Niagara, don't
> they? Presumably the Canonical people have some developers working on
> (and contributing to) the (sparc64) gnu toolchain and linux kernel as
> part of that deal?

There have been essentially no contributions to the SPARC toolchain by Sun or 
Canonical people over the last few years.

-- 
Eric Botcazou

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain

[Andrew Walrond]

Andrew Walrond wrote:
> David Miller wrote:
>> That's correct, it's essentially GCC's language front ends
>> plugged into Sun's compiler backend.
>> -
> 
> And presumably is solaris only doesn't work under gnu/linux?
> 

Sorry; that is thinko/typo/horrible. What I actually meant:

Presumably the gccfss/scgfss is only available for solaris and not
gnu/linux?

> Andrew Walrond

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain

[Sunil Amitkumar Janki]

Andrew Walrond wrote:
> Andrew Walrond wrote:
>   
>> David Miller wrote:
>>     
>>> That's correct, it's essentially GCC's language front ends
>>> plugged into Sun's compiler backend.
>>> -
>>>       
>> And presumably is solaris only doesn't work under gnu/linux?
>>
>>     
>
> Sorry; that is thinko/typo/horrible. What I actually meant:
>
> Presumably the gccfss/scgfss is only available for solaris and not
> gnu/linux?
>
>   
>> Andrew Walrond
>>     
>
>
>   

Sun Studio is available for Solaris and GNU/Linux x86 and Solaris SPARC.

GCC for SPARC is a front end to this compiler, which isn't available
for Linux/SPARC so not really useful at all. If Sun Studio were available
for GNU/Linux SPARC this front end would probably function the same as
on Solaris, maybe even without any changes at all.

I don't know if the source code to this front end has been released in the
open or if it is even useful to the GCC project in general and to GNU/Linux
on SPARC in particular.

Sunil

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain

[Chris Newport]

Sunil Amitkumar Janki wrote:

>
> GCC for SPARC is a front end to this compiler, which isn't available
> for Linux/SPARC so not really useful at all. If Sun Studio were available
> for GNU/Linux SPARC this front end would probably function the same as
> on Solaris, maybe even without any changes at all.
>
> I don't know if the source code to this front end has been released in 
> the
> open or if it is even useful to the GCC project in general and to 
> GNU/Linux
> on SPARC in particular.
>
gcc and the GNU toolchain for Solaris can be found at 
http://www.sunfreeware.com/ which is sponsored by Sun.

This contains all of the hardware related stuff, so it should not be
difficult to recompile for sparclinux.  All under GPL of course.

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain

[Sunil Amitkumar Janki]

Chris Newport wrote:
> Sunil Amitkumar Janki wrote:
>
>>
>> GCC for SPARC is a front end to this compiler, which isn't available
>> for Linux/SPARC so not really useful at all. If Sun Studio were 
>> available
>> for GNU/Linux SPARC this front end would probably function the same as
>> on Solaris, maybe even without any changes at all.
>>
>> I don't know if the source code to this front end has been released 
>> in the
>> open or if it is even useful to the GCC project in general and to 
>> GNU/Linux
>> on SPARC in particular.
>>
> gcc and the GNU toolchain for Solaris can be found at 
> http://www.sunfreeware.com/ which is sponsored by Sun.
>
> This contains all of the hardware related stuff, so it should not be
> difficult to recompile for sparclinux.  All under GPL of course.

I am sorry if I wasn't clear in my reasoning. I know that
GCC and the GNU toolchain is available for both Linux and
Solaris on SPARC.

What I was talking about is http://cooltools.sunsource.net/gcc
and a discussion about this can be found in the GCC mailing list
archives:

http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2006-03/msg00140.html

Sunil

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[Andrew Walrond]

Eric Botcazou wrote:
> 
> There have been essentially no contributions to the SPARC toolchain by Sun or 
> Canonical people over the last few years.
> 

So, Sun really _don't_ give a damn about gnu/linux on sparc64.

What a shame; for the first time in years they have a CPU which is
competitive (for some useful workloads) and they are only serious about
supporting their increasingly niche Solaris OS? Go figure.

Andrew Walrond

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[David Miller]

From: Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:02:08 +0100

> So, Sun really _don't_ give a damn about gnu/linux on sparc64.

That is a gross mischaracterization of the situation, don't
say this, it isn't true at all.

I have a full rack of Niagara systems that proves that Sun
cares to some extent.  I get early hardware access and
documentation access, plus engineers to talk to and ask
questions of.

That is miles away from what you are claiming.

I know what you are after, and it doesn't happen overnight.  So don't
be spastic and just whine as the only possible effect that will have
is to scare them off and put Sun in reverse gear instead of continuing
forward.

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain on sparc64 ?

[NightStrike]

On 9/13/07, David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote:
> I have a full rack of Niagara systems that proves that Sun

Can I have one?  :) :)

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[Andrew Walrond]

David Miller wrote:
> From: Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>
> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:02:08 +0100
> 
>> So, Sun really _don't_ give a damn about gnu/linux on sparc64.
> 
> That is a gross mischaracterization of the situation, don't
> say this, it isn't true at all.
> 
> I have a full rack of Niagara systems that proves that Sun
> cares to some extent.  I get early hardware access and
> documentation access, plus engineers to talk to and ask
> questions of.
> 

With all due respect to your incredible efforts, this amounts to crumbs
from their table.

When, a multi-billion dollar company allocate ZERO development personnel
to support their flagship platform on gnu/linux, I believe the reality
of the situation is self evident.

> 
> I know what you are after, and it doesn't happen overnight.  So don't

Indeed; just perhaps a transcript of this thread will end up on an
influential desk, and just maybe they will understand the absurdity of
the situation.

For myself; I had no idea I was so transparent ;)

> be spastic and just whine as the only possible effect that will have
> is to scare them off and put Sun in reverse gear instead of continuing
> forward.
> 

I'll not bite on the first part; If you reread the thread I think you'd
have to agree that 'spastic whining' is "a gross mischaracterization of
the situation".

As to the second part; Sun are certainly 'bigger' than that.

Andrew Walrond

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain on sparc64 ?

[Eric Botcazou]

> That is a gross mischaracterization of the situation, don't
> say this, it isn't true at all.
>
> I have a full rack of Niagara systems that proves that Sun
> cares to some extent.

Right, and I should have said "essentially no direct contributions" to the 
SPARC toolchain from Sun.  There have been indirect contributions, e.g. for 
Solaris 10 support, and AFAIK they have been merged in the FSF tree.

-- 
Eric Botcazou

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[Hamish Greig]

Andrew Walrond wrote:
> David Miller wrote:
>> From: Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>
>> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:02:08 +0100
>>
>>> So, Sun really _don't_ give a damn about gnu/linux on sparc64.
>> That is a gross mischaracterization of the situation, don't
>> say this, it isn't true at all.
>>
>> I have a full rack of Niagara systems that proves that Sun
>> cares to some extent.  I get early hardware access and
>> documentation access, plus engineers to talk to and ask
>> questions of.
>>
> 
> With all due respect to your incredible efforts, this amounts to crumbs
> from their table.
> 
> When, a multi-billion dollar company allocate ZERO development personnel
> to support their flagship platform on gnu/linux, I believe the reality
> of the situation is self evident.
> 
>> I know what you are after, and it doesn't happen overnight.  So don't
> 
> Indeed; just perhaps a transcript of this thread will end up on an
> influential desk, and just maybe they will understand the absurdity of
> the situation.
> 
> For myself; I had no idea I was so transparent ;)
> 
>> be spastic and just whine as the only possible effect that will have
>> is to scare them off and put Sun in reverse gear instead of continuing
>> forward.
>>
> 
> I'll not bite on the first part; If you reread the thread I think you'd
> have to agree that 'spastic whining' is "a gross mischaracterization of
> the situation".
> 
> As to the second part; Sun are certainly 'bigger' than that.
> 
> Andrew Walrond
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe sparclinux" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 
> 

reread David's email until you realise you're not helping by spouting 
accusations and then afterwards please publicly apologise so that Sun 
doesn't begin to think what it is doing is unwanted and withdraw it 
because it is causing them more illwill from unappreciative people 
instead of goodwill for building bridges with non-commercial OS and 
projects.
I am a simple user here, no hacker or developer and even I know how out 
of line you are Andrew.

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain on sparc64 ?

[Joe Buck]

David Miller wrote:
> > I have a full rack of Niagara systems that proves that Sun
> > cares to some extent.  I get early hardware access and
> > documentation access, plus engineers to talk to and ask
> > questions of.

On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 06:43:35AM +0100, Andrew Walrond wrote:
> With all due respect to your incredible efforts, this amounts to crumbs
> from their table.

It doesn't serve us to bash contributors for not doing more.  As some have
pointed out, it can backfire; I wouldn't be surprised if Sun's own
compiler group sees gcc as competition and would like for Sun to support
it *less*.  Like most tech companies that have seen better days, Sun's
been cutting costs to the bone; I'm sure that they don't feel rich.

So please stop.

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[David Carlton]

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:27:38 -0700, Joe Buck <Joe.Buck@synopsys.COM> said:

> Like most tech companies that have seen better days, Sun's been
> cutting costs to the bone; I'm sure that they don't feel rich.

This is true.  I'm not sure how many rounds of layoffs we've had over
the last five years, but there were many, and I'm not completely sure
that we're done.

It's also true that we're not behaving as well as we should in this
situation.  I've forwarded several messages in this thread to people
at Sun who might be in a position to make a difference: from where I
sit, it looks like a situation where having a few of our engineers
contributing directly to these segments of the open source community
would help a lot.

Also from where I sit, Sun is trying to do the right thing.  We've
been consistently open sourcing key components of our software for
some time now, and are trying (not always successfully, we have a
learning curve like everybody else) to build new communities and
participate in existing ones.  And we're trying to be as open to
mixing and matching as we possibly can: we'd prefer for you to run
Solaris on Sun hardware (I was going to write on Sparc, but we're
actually quite agnostic on the x86/Sparc choice these days), but we're
more than happy to sell you Sun hardware where you run your choice of
OS on it (Solaris, a few versions of Linux, and we even announced a
Windows OEM deal last week), and we're also quite happy to have you
run Solaris on other people's hardware (see the IBM Solaris
announcement last month).  And if you run other OSes on other
hardware, well, that's a learning opportunity for us, but would you
like to run Java?  Or maybe just the JVM with, say, JRuby on top?  Or
use OpenOffice?  And if you want to build your own box with our chip
design, that's great too!

But obviously we're not doing a perfect job; in particular, we're
clearly not doing as good a job on the Sparc + Linux quadrant as we
should.  Please continue to try to keep us honest, but do so with the
realization that we're fallible, we're resource-constrained, and we
can't do everything at once.

I am speaking purely as an individual; I am currently employed by Sun,
and I have a soft spot for GCC (I used to work on GDB before being
hired by Sun), but my current work is completely unrelated to compiler
toolchain issues.  (Other than as a user!)  And I have no particular
influence on Sun's resource allocation or open source behavior.

David Carlton
david.carlton@sun.com

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[Andrew Walrond]

Hi David,

David Carlton wrote:
> 
> This is true.  I'm not sure how many rounds of layoffs we've had over
> the last five years, but there were many, and I'm not completely sure
> that we're done.
> 
> It's also true that we're not behaving as well as we should in this
> situation.  I've forwarded several messages in this thread to people
> at Sun who might be in a position to make a difference: from where I
> sit, it looks like a situation where having a few of our engineers
> contributing directly to these segments of the open source community
> would help a lot.

Forget 'helping the open source community' and think 'helping Sun'.

I use gnu/linux, primarily on x86_64, which is well supported (kernel
and toolchain) by Intel and AMD. Along comes Sun with some really nice,
competitive new technology (Niagara) which I would love to use, but not
at the time and expense of converting all our our stuff to Solaris, in
which we have no experience, knowledge or know how. Nor are we willing
to lock ourselves into Solaris going forward, since gnu/linux runs on
_everything_ else and leaves our choice of hardware wide open in the future.

And I'll be damned if I am going to bet the farm on a rack of Niagara
servers supported on our OS of choice by _ONE_ enthusiastic 3rd party
developer.

So, bottom line, if you want to sell Niagara product lines to the
gnu/linux market, people like me who are ready and _eager_ to use it,
then step up to the plate with a few developers to help make the
gnu/linux toolchain and kernel every bit as good and supported as the
solaris equivalents.

> 
> But obviously we're not doing a perfect job; in particular, we're
> clearly not doing as good a job on the Sparc + Linux quadrant as we
> should.  Please continue to try to keep us honest, but do so with the
> realization that we're fallible, we're resource-constrained, and we
> can't do everything at once.

I know Sun has had a hard time financially, but having posted revenues
of $13.873 billion for fiscal 2007, the cost of a few developers to open
up the whole gnu/linux market segment for Niagara is down in the noise.

> 
> I am speaking purely as an individual; I am currently employed by Sun,
> and I have a soft spot for GCC (I used to work on GDB before being
> hired by Sun), but my current work is completely unrelated to compiler
> toolchain issues.  (Other than as a user!)  And I have no particular
> influence on Sun's resource allocation or open source behavior.

And I apologise (to everyone) for any unnecessary rhetoric on my part; I
freely admit that I designed my posts specifically to sparc (ahem) this
debate, but I guess most of you knew that already ;)

Andrew Walrond

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[David Miller]

From: Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:43:16 +0100

> And I apologise (to everyone) for any unnecessary rhetoric on my part; I
> freely admit that I designed my posts specifically to sparc (ahem) this
> debate, but I guess most of you knew that already ;)

The big issue you keep missing in all of your rediculious complaints
is that it takes a lot of time for a company to invest in future
potential revenue.

Most of Sun's resources are invested in things that make them money
right now and keep the lights on at their buildings and their employee
salaries paid.

Investing in better Linux Niagara support in the way that you want is
a huge risk, and you are only one very vocal customer and that does
not, in and of itself, translate into lots of revenue and lots of
profit for Sun.  In fact, it is not even guarenteed that you yourself
will buy lots of Niagara boxes to run Linux on, things change
sometimes unexpectedly.

So your expectations and judgments of Sun as a company are wholly
disconnected from reality.

Please stop this banter, and work on things to support what Sun has
done so far and things which will encourage them to do more in the
future.

And _NO_ this does mean continuing to say that Sun isn't doing enough
to satisfy you, that discourages rather than encourages in case you
haven't gotten that message LOUD and CLEAR by now.

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils toolchain

[Andrew Walrond]

David Miller wrote:
> 
> The big issue you keep missing in all of your rediculious complaints
> is that it takes a lot of time for a company to invest in future
> potential revenue.
> 
> Most of Sun's resources are invested in things that make them money
> right now and keep the lights on at their buildings and their employee
> salaries paid.
> 

Sorry David; got to disgree with you on this one. A few developers are
irrelevant when considered against the potential reward. That was
$13.873 _billion_, with a B. the A few good men like yourself wouldn't
even effect the second decimal point...

> 
> And _NO_ this does mean continuing to say that Sun isn't doing enough
> to satisfy you, that discourages rather than encourages in case you
> haven't gotten that message LOUD and CLEAR by now.
> 

On the contrary, as an existing and prospective customer, I shall KEEP
telling Sun, LOUDLY and PUBLICLY exactly what I want from them.

Although not here; I have ruffled enough feathers already!

BTW Isn't it somewhat ironic that the only person who seems to
(somewhat) agree with me is the guy from Sun? :)

Sheath your blade young sir; I shall trouble you no more...

[Although, if you could just get the sparc64 kernel compiling properly
with gcc4.2+ when you get a minute...] ;)

Andrew Walrond

Re: Is Sun putting much effort into supporting the gcc/binutils

[David Miller]

From: Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:54:13 +0100

> David Miller wrote:
> > 
> > And _NO_ this does mean continuing to say that Sun isn't doing enough
> > to satisfy you, that discourages rather than encourages in case you
> > haven't gotten that message LOUD and CLEAR by now.
> > 
> 
> On the contrary, as an existing and prospective customer, I shall KEEP
> telling Sun, LOUDLY and PUBLICLY exactly what I want from them.
> 
> Although not here; I have ruffled enough feathers already!

Research someone named Theo Deraadt and go see where his continual
complaining about Sun has landed him.  He gets generally ignored, and
Sun is extremely reluctant to deal with or help him.

Alternatively I try to be pleasant and helping to Sun rather than
berate them every time they don't do exactly what I want.  I think I
achiever better results than Theo does.

This is an issue of how to deal socially with other people and
entities in a cooperative rather than an anti-social and confronting
manner.  Sun started to help me a lot because I engaged heavily
in the former rather than the latter.

Years ago I used to do the "LOUDLY and PUBLICLY" thing too, I
generally got ignored and nobody wanted to help me, just like Theo.