From: thierry.reding@gmail.com (Thierry Reding)
To: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org
Subject: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] ARM topic: Is DT on ARM the solution, or is there something better?
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:15:56 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20131021091555.GB21518@ulmo.nvidia.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1310201911190.1951@syhkavp.arg>
On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 09:00:08PM -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
[...]
> The hardware support in the kernel, on the other hand, can be improved
> incrementally with time. It doesn't matter if it is not optimal at
> first. It can be revisited, optimized, reviewed, and sometimes even
> redesigned. And only when it reaches maturity would be the time to use
> the experience from the kernel development and make some firmware out of
> it. But what would be the point then?
I agree. However that's currently no longer the case. We're severely
limiting ourselves because we're requiring DT to be a stable ABI.
A stable ABI means there's about zero chance of redesigning something
after it's been merged. Unless we want to live with having to support
several DT bindings in a driver.
The kind of flexibility and unstable API within the kernel is something
that I've always been very fond of, precisely because it allows us to
get features implemented fairly quickly. At the same time we have the
possibility to redesign code when we have to. It's just impossible to
take into account every possible detail up front simply because we're
all only human and because some things just might change over time. I'm
fairly sure that Linux wouldn't be where it is today if we didn't have
that flexibility.
Right now, we're taking away much of that flexibility and I see progress
on ARM actively hindered.
Thierry
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From: Thierry Reding <thierry.reding-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: Nicolas Pitre <nico-vtqb6HGKxmzR7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>
Cc: Stephen Warren <swarren-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>,
Mark Brown <broonie-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>,
"devicetree-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org"
<devicetree-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>,
"ksummit-2013-discuss-cunTk1MwBs98uUxBSJOaYoYkZiVZrdSR2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org"
<ksummit-2013-discuss-cunTk1MwBs98uUxBSJOaYoYkZiVZrdSR2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org>,
"linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org"
<linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] ARM topic: Is DT on ARM the solution, or is there something better?
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:15:56 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20131021091555.GB21518@ulmo.nvidia.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1310201911190.1951-hIgblCxmbi8OMTOF05IoTw@public.gmane.org>
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1439 bytes --]
On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 09:00:08PM -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
[...]
> The hardware support in the kernel, on the other hand, can be improved
> incrementally with time. It doesn't matter if it is not optimal at
> first. It can be revisited, optimized, reviewed, and sometimes even
> redesigned. And only when it reaches maturity would be the time to use
> the experience from the kernel development and make some firmware out of
> it. But what would be the point then?
I agree. However that's currently no longer the case. We're severely
limiting ourselves because we're requiring DT to be a stable ABI.
A stable ABI means there's about zero chance of redesigning something
after it's been merged. Unless we want to live with having to support
several DT bindings in a driver.
The kind of flexibility and unstable API within the kernel is something
that I've always been very fond of, precisely because it allows us to
get features implemented fairly quickly. At the same time we have the
possibility to redesign code when we have to. It's just impossible to
take into account every possible detail up front simply because we're
all only human and because some things just might change over time. I'm
fairly sure that Linux wouldn't be where it is today if we didn't have
that flexibility.
Right now, we're taking away much of that flexibility and I see progress
on ARM actively hindered.
Thierry
[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 836 bytes --]
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-10-21 9:15 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 342+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-10-20 21:26 ARM topic: Is DT on ARM the solution, or is there something better? Stephen Warren
2013-10-20 21:26 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-20 22:08 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Mark Brown
2013-10-20 22:08 ` Mark Brown
2013-10-20 22:21 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-20 22:21 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 1:00 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-21 1:00 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-21 9:15 ` Thierry Reding [this message]
2013-10-21 9:15 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 14:57 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-21 14:57 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-21 17:07 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-21 17:07 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-21 20:24 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 20:24 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-22 9:24 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 9:24 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 17:30 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 17:30 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 19:06 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 19:06 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 17:22 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-22 17:22 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-21 20:29 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 20:29 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 20:40 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-21 20:40 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-22 9:39 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 9:39 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 15:04 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-22 15:04 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-22 17:13 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-22 17:13 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-22 17:49 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 17:49 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-23 8:06 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 8:06 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 9:49 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 9:49 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 17:16 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 17:16 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 17:25 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 17:25 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 18:05 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:05 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:57 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-23 18:57 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-23 20:12 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 20:12 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 17:55 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-23 17:55 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-23 18:13 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:13 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 20:35 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 20:35 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 17:29 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-23 17:29 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-23 17:45 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 17:45 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:46 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-23 18:46 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-23 18:51 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:51 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 19:12 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-23 19:12 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 9:52 ` Grant Likely
2013-10-24 9:52 ` Grant Likely
2013-10-24 11:33 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 11:33 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 11:47 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 11:47 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 12:13 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 12:13 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 12:22 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 12:22 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 12:22 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 12:22 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 13:05 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 13:05 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 13:14 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 13:14 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 13:46 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 13:46 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 19:52 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-24 19:52 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-24 20:11 ` Matt Sealey
2013-10-24 20:11 ` Matt Sealey
2013-10-25 9:00 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-25 9:00 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-24 12:23 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 12:23 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 12:29 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 12:29 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 13:00 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 13:00 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 13:10 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 13:10 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 13:30 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 13:30 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 14:05 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 14:05 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 14:19 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:19 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:30 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 14:30 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 14:38 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:38 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 16:39 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 16:39 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 16:45 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 16:45 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 17:08 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 17:08 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 18:15 ` jonsmirl at gmail.com
2013-10-24 18:15 ` jonsmirl-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w
2013-10-24 14:32 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 14:32 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 14:47 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:47 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 15:37 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 15:37 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 14:33 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 14:33 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 14:57 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:57 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 16:27 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 16:27 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 14:12 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:12 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:22 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 14:22 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 14:23 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:23 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:38 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 14:38 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 14:58 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:58 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 19:58 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-24 19:58 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-24 23:54 ` Grant Likely
2013-10-24 23:54 ` Grant Likely
2013-10-25 8:52 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-25 8:52 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-25 9:16 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-25 9:16 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 17:47 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 17:47 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 17:58 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-23 17:58 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-23 18:02 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-23 18:02 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-23 18:23 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:23 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 8:34 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 8:34 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 15:00 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 15:00 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 19:46 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-24 19:46 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 18:01 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-23 18:01 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-23 18:25 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-23 18:25 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-23 18:30 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:30 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:54 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-23 18:54 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-24 8:06 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 8:06 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 8:17 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 8:17 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 8:52 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 8:52 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-23 23:29 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-10-23 23:29 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-10-24 7:32 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 7:32 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 9:35 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-10-24 9:35 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-10-24 12:02 ` Andre Heider
2013-10-24 12:02 ` Andre Heider
2013-10-24 8:01 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 8:01 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 8:11 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 8:11 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 17:42 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-22 17:42 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-22 18:21 ` Peter Maydell
2013-10-22 18:21 ` Peter Maydell
2013-10-22 18:36 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-22 18:36 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-22 19:16 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 19:16 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 20:12 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 20:12 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 20:41 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-22 20:41 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-22 21:39 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-22 21:39 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-23 8:50 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 8:50 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 9:02 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 9:02 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 20:42 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-22 20:42 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 10:04 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 10:04 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 11:48 ` Peter Maydell
2013-10-23 11:48 ` Peter Maydell
2013-10-23 16:29 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 16:29 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-22 6:47 ` David Brown
2013-10-22 6:47 ` David Brown
2013-10-20 23:11 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-20 23:11 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-20 23:44 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Guenter Roeck
2013-10-20 23:44 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-20 23:51 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-20 23:51 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-21 0:13 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-21 0:13 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-21 20:05 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 20:05 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-22 9:45 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 9:45 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 8:32 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-21 8:32 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-21 8:48 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-21 8:48 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-21 9:27 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-21 9:27 ` Sascha Hauer
[not found] ` < CAF6AEGtt_2sStiZCNBp9btxevWghSwLZZBdN6ir8eUpX1FXrCQ@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` < 20131024072811.GS30088@pengutronix.de>
[not found] ` < CAF6AEGuEho9Ms7ifTE-EmBoQ-=_AXgvGcJxi5qEC0vsZ+H9C+A@mail.gmail.com>
2013-10-21 9:57 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-21 9:57 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-21 10:24 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 10:24 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 10:30 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-21 10:30 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-10-21 10:41 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 10:41 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 9:19 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Mark Brown
2013-10-22 9:19 ` Mark Brown
2013-10-21 20:09 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 20:09 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 23:18 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-21 23:18 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 1:14 ` Rob Clark
2013-10-24 1:14 ` Rob Clark
2013-10-24 7:28 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 7:28 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 9:00 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 9:00 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 9:21 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 9:21 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 21:21 ` Rob Clark
2013-10-24 21:21 ` Rob Clark
2013-10-25 9:24 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-25 9:24 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 12:45 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-18 12:45 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-18 15:37 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 15:37 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 16:11 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-18 16:11 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-18 16:18 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 16:18 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 18:43 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-18 18:43 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-19 13:54 ` Grant Likely
2013-11-19 13:54 ` Grant Likely
2013-10-21 10:04 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 10:04 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 10:57 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Laurent Pinchart
2013-10-21 10:57 ` Laurent Pinchart
2013-10-21 10:00 ` Laurent Pinchart
2013-10-21 10:00 ` Laurent Pinchart
2013-10-21 11:18 ` Sebastian Hesselbarth
2013-10-21 11:18 ` Sebastian Hesselbarth
2013-10-21 8:54 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 8:54 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 20:19 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 20:19 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 22:51 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Guenter Roeck
2013-10-21 22:51 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 10:27 ` James Hogan
2013-10-22 10:27 ` James Hogan
2013-10-22 16:31 ` Jonathan Cameron
2013-10-22 16:31 ` Jonathan Cameron
2013-10-22 16:49 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 16:49 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 20:35 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 20:35 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 21:10 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 21:10 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-23 7:57 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 7:57 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 16:01 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-23 16:01 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-23 21:07 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 21:07 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 15:18 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-24 15:18 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-11-01 10:36 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-01 10:36 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-01 13:30 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-11-01 13:30 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 20:48 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 20:48 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 10:25 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 10:25 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 21:44 ` Matt Sealey
2013-10-22 21:44 ` Matt Sealey
2013-10-23 11:41 ` Peter Maydell
2013-10-23 11:41 ` Peter Maydell
2013-10-23 23:02 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Rob Herring
2013-10-23 23:02 ` Rob Herring
2013-11-18 12:26 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 12:26 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 13:40 ` Grant Likely
2013-11-18 13:40 ` Grant Likely
2013-11-18 13:57 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-18 13:57 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-18 15:29 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 15:29 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 15:50 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-18 15:50 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-18 16:06 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 16:06 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 17:16 ` Stephen Warren
2013-11-18 17:16 ` Stephen Warren
2013-11-19 9:35 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-19 9:35 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-19 17:27 ` Stephen Warren
2013-11-19 17:27 ` Stephen Warren
2013-11-20 13:29 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-20 13:29 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 18:35 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-18 18:35 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-19 9:11 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-19 9:11 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-19 10:16 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-19 10:16 ` Mark Brown
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