Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

[Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko]

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On 21.12.2013 23:34, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Sat, Dec 21, 2013, at 23:12, bug-grub-owner@gnu.org wrote:
>> You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message has
>> been automatically rejected.  If you think that your messages are
>> being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at
>> bug-grub-owner@gnu.org.
> 
> Ehm, msgid bugs are supposed to be reported to this list,
> so please let the post pass.
> 
Hello, currently bug-grub is subscriber-only list. I'll think of how to
change this. Probably it will be changed to moderated or the mail for
msgid bugs will be changed to another ML (the one I currently
redirecting you to).

> Subject:
> please attempt to minimize string changes
> From:
> Benno Schulenberg <bensberg@justemail.net>
> Date:
> Sat, 21 Dec 2013 23:12:38 +0100
> To:
> bug-grub@gnu.org
> 
> 
> Hello developers,
> 
> While updating the Dutch translations of grub's messages, I notice that
> some strings have changed in unnecessary ways.  The change that makes
> me write this mail is the one in util/grub-mkrescue.c, lines 215-217.
> Those three lines were gettextized separately, which was very well,
> because they are separate paragrahs.  Now they are a single string,
> which is not only unwieldy, and ungraspable in one view, but also every
> translator has to concatenate her three previous separate translations
> into a single one.  Unneeded work.  Please gettextize those paragraphs
> again separately, so the translations need to be tweaked only slightly.
> 
grub-mkrescue was rewritten in C and current segmentation is imposed by
argp. I don't know if there is a way to put old strings there.
Perhaps someone more familiar with srgp could help?
> In general, when extending a text, please consider whether the addition
> can be seen as an independent sentence.  If so, then please gettextize
> it separately.
> 
> By the way, in grub-core/commands/terminal.c, couldn't
>   "[--append|--remove] [TERMINAL1] [TERMINAL2] ..."
> simply be:
>   "[--append|--remove] [TERMINAL...]"?
> 
I find second less clear since it's more difficult to guess that the
"..." stands for ("[TERMINAL3]",...)

When proofreading Ukrainian and French translations we've found a number
of unclear msgids. I'll make beta2 tomorrow to reflect those changes.


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Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

[Andrey Borzenkov]

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В Вс, 22/12/2013 в 00:55 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
пишет:
> > 
> > While updating the Dutch translations of grub's messages, I notice that
> > some strings have changed in unnecessary ways.  The change that makes
> > me write this mail is the one in util/grub-mkrescue.c, lines 215-217.
> > Those three lines were gettextized separately, which was very well,
> > because they are separate paragrahs.  Now they are a single string,
> > which is not only unwieldy, and ungraspable in one view, but also every
> > translator has to concatenate her three previous separate translations
> > into a single one.  Unneeded work.  Please gettextize those paragraphs
> > again separately, so the translations need to be tweaked only slightly.
> > 
> grub-mkrescue was rewritten in C and current segmentation is imposed by
> argp. I don't know if there is a way to put old strings there.
> Perhaps someone more familiar with srgp could help?

Will below patch help? It also removes trailing dot on the first
paragraph which was not present before. Compile tested.

> > 
> > By the way, in grub-core/commands/terminal.c, couldn't
> >   "[--append|--remove] [TERMINAL1] [TERMINAL2] ..."
> > simply be:
> >   "[--append|--remove] [TERMINAL...]"?
> > 
> I find second less clear since it's more difficult to guess that the
> "..." stands for ("[TERMINAL3]",...)
> 

I usually use [TERMINAL ...] (with extra spaces). I find it established
enough practice at least in UNIX manuals.

From: Andrey Borzenkov <arvidjaar@gmail.com>
Subject: [PATCH] split grub-mkresecue help text to keep existing translations

Reported by Benno Schulenberg

---
 util/grub-mkrescue.c | 6 +++---
 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/util/grub-mkrescue.c b/util/grub-mkrescue.c
index ad45f9c..635ae63 100644
--- a/util/grub-mkrescue.c
+++ b/util/grub-mkrescue.c
@@ -218,9 +218,9 @@ struct argp argp = {
   N_("Make GRUB CD-ROM, disk, pendrive and floppy bootable image.")"\v"
   N_("Generates a bootable CD/USB/floppy image.  Arguments other than options to this program"
      " are passed to xorriso, and indicate source files, source directories, or any of the "
-     "mkisofs options listed by the output of `%s'.\n\n"
-     "Option -- switches to native xorriso command mode.\n\n"
-     "Mail xorriso support requests to <bug-xorriso@gnu.org>."), 
+     "mkisofs options listed by the output of `%s'\n") "\n"
+     N_("Option -- switches to native xorriso command mode.") "\n\n"
+     N_("Mail xorriso support requests to <bug-xorriso@gnu.org>."), 
   NULL, help_filter, NULL
 };
 
-- 
tg: (bf08219..) u/grub-mkrescue-i18n (depends on: master)



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Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

[Benno Schulenberg]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013, at 5:55, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:
> Will below patch help? It also removes trailing dot on the first
> paragraph which was not present before.

Thanks, the patch looks good.  Except that the trailing dot needs
to be there: it is a doc string and should end in a period.  The
addition of the dot was an improvement.  :)

The general rule is: when the string starts with a capitalized word,
it wants to be a full sentence and should end in a period.  When the
message starts with a lowercase letter, don't use a period anywhere
in the message; when you need a second sentence, use a semicolon.

> I usually use [TERMINAL ...] (with extra spaces). I find it established
> enough practice at least in UNIX manuals.

Indeed.  Although in most of the man pages I've looked at just now
(df, ls, grep, sed, swapon, gawk), only gawk uses a space before the
dots.  But whatever you choose, please make it consistent across
grub -- I've seen at least one instance without a space before the
dots in grub's messages.

Regards,

Benno

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Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

[Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko]

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On 22.12.2013 10:18, Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013, at 5:55, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:
>> Will below patch help? It also removes trailing dot on the first
>> paragraph which was not present before.
> 
> Thanks, the patch looks good.  Except that the trailing dot needs
> to be there: it is a doc string and should end in a period.  The
> addition of the dot was an improvement.  :)
> 
@Andrey. Could you commit your patch with this suggestion?
Thanks
> The general rule is: when the string starts with a capitalized word,
> it wants to be a full sentence and should end in a period.  When the
> message starts with a lowercase letter, don't use a period anywhere
> in the message; when you need a second sentence, use a semicolon.
> 
>> I usually use [TERMINAL ...] (with extra spaces). I find it established
>> enough practice at least in UNIX manuals.
> 
> Indeed.  Although in most of the man pages I've looked at just now
> (df, ls, grep, sed, swapon, gawk), only gawk uses a space before the
> dots.  But whatever you choose, please make it consistent across
> grub -- I've seen at least one instance without a space before the
> dots in grub's messages.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Benno
> 



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Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

[Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko]

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On 22.12.2013 05:55, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:
> В Вс, 22/12/2013 в 00:55 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
> пишет:
>>>
>>> While updating the Dutch translations of grub's messages, I notice that
>>> some strings have changed in unnecessary ways.  The change that makes
>>> me write this mail is the one in util/grub-mkrescue.c, lines 215-217.
>>> Those three lines were gettextized separately, which was very well,
>>> because they are separate paragrahs.  Now they are a single string,
>>> which is not only unwieldy, and ungraspable in one view, but also every
>>> translator has to concatenate her three previous separate translations
>>> into a single one.  Unneeded work.  Please gettextize those paragraphs
>>> again separately, so the translations need to be tweaked only slightly.
>>>
>> grub-mkrescue was rewritten in C and current segmentation is imposed by
>> argp. I don't know if there is a way to put old strings there.
>> Perhaps someone more familiar with srgp could help?
> 
> Will below patch help? It also removes trailing dot on the first
> paragraph which was not present before. Compile tested.
> 
>>>
>>> By the way, in grub-core/commands/terminal.c, couldn't
>>>   "[--append|--remove] [TERMINAL1] [TERMINAL2] ..."
>>> simply be:
>>>   "[--append|--remove] [TERMINAL...]"?
>>>
>> I find second less clear since it's more difficult to guess that the
>> "..." stands for ("[TERMINAL3]",...)
>>
> 
> I usually use [TERMINAL ...] (with extra spaces). I find it established
> enough practice at least in UNIX manuals.
> 
> From: Andrey Borzenkov <arvidjaar@gmail.com>
> Subject: [PATCH] split grub-mkresecue help text to keep existing translations
> 
> Reported by Benno Schulenberg
> 
> ---
>  util/grub-mkrescue.c | 6 +++---
>  1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/util/grub-mkrescue.c b/util/grub-mkrescue.c
> index ad45f9c..635ae63 100644
> --- a/util/grub-mkrescue.c
> +++ b/util/grub-mkrescue.c
> @@ -218,9 +218,9 @@ struct argp argp = {
>    N_("Make GRUB CD-ROM, disk, pendrive and floppy bootable image.")"\v"
>    N_("Generates a bootable CD/USB/floppy image.  Arguments other than options to this program"
>       " are passed to xorriso, and indicate source files, source directories, or any of the "
> -     "mkisofs options listed by the output of `%s'.\n\n"
> -     "Option -- switches to native xorriso command mode.\n\n"
> -     "Mail xorriso support requests to <bug-xorriso@gnu.org>."), 
> +     "mkisofs options listed by the output of `%s'\n") "\n"
> +     N_("Option -- switches to native xorriso command mode.") "\n\n"
> +     N_("Mail xorriso support requests to <bug-xorriso@gnu.org>."), 
N_ is not a function, it only marks string for translation for gettext.
argp will see the whole string with no indication how N_ was used. It
will resplit the string at \v and pass both halves to gettext which will
fail to find the second half in the catalog

>    NULL, help_filter, NULL
>  };
>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Grub-devel mailing list
> Grub-devel@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/grub-devel
> 



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Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

[Andrey Borzenkov]

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В Вс, 22/12/2013 в 12:31 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
пишет:
> N_ is not a function, it only marks string for translation for gettext.
> argp will see the whole string with no indication how N_ was used. It
> will resplit the string at \v and pass both halves to gettext which will
> fail to find the second half in the catalog
> 

OK, I see. In this case verbatim replacement using separately
translatable strings would be patch below (I actually tested it using
old catalog, which works with exception of sentence in question, which
changed too much). Is there any reason "xorriso ..." is not part of
string? It would make it even more simple.

From: Andrey Borzenkov <arvidjaar@gmail.com>
Subject: [PATCH] split grub-mkresecue help text to facilitate translations

Reported by Benno Schulenberg

---
 util/grub-mkrescue.c | 25 ++++++++++++++++---------
 1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-)

diff --git a/util/grub-mkrescue.c b/util/grub-mkrescue.c
index ad45f9c..ad132ef 100644
--- a/util/grub-mkrescue.c
+++ b/util/grub-mkrescue.c
@@ -119,8 +119,22 @@ help_filter (int key, const char *text, void *input __attribute__ ((unused)))
 {
   switch (key)
     {
+    case ARGP_KEY_HELP_PRE_DOC:
+      /* TRANSLATORS: it generates one single image which is bootable through any method. */
+      return strdup (_("Make GRUB CD-ROM, disk, pendrive and floppy bootable image."));
     case ARGP_KEY_HELP_POST_DOC:
-      return xasprintf (text, "xorriso -as mkisofs -help");
+      {
+	char *p1, *out;
+
+	p1 = xasprintf (_("Generates a bootable CD/USB/floppy image.  Arguments other than options to this program"
+      " are passed to xorriso, and indicate source files, source directories, or any of the "
+      "mkisofs options listed by the output of `%s'."), "xorriso -as mkisofs -help");
+	out = xasprintf ("%s\n\n%s\n\n%s", p1,
+	  _("Option -- switches to native xorriso command mode."),
+	  _("Mail xorriso support requests to <bug-xorriso@gnu.org>."));
+	free (p1);
+	return out;
+      }
     default:
       return grub_install_help_filter (key, text, input);
     }
@@ -214,14 +228,7 @@ argp_parser (int key, char *arg, struct argp_state *state)
 
 struct argp argp = {
   options, argp_parser, N_("[OPTION] SOURCE..."),
-  /* TRANSLATORS: it generates one single image which is bootable through any method. */
-  N_("Make GRUB CD-ROM, disk, pendrive and floppy bootable image.")"\v"
-  N_("Generates a bootable CD/USB/floppy image.  Arguments other than options to this program"
-     " are passed to xorriso, and indicate source files, source directories, or any of the "
-     "mkisofs options listed by the output of `%s'.\n\n"
-     "Option -- switches to native xorriso command mode.\n\n"
-     "Mail xorriso support requests to <bug-xorriso@gnu.org>."), 
-  NULL, help_filter, NULL
+  NULL, NULL, help_filter, NULL
 };
 
 static void
-- 
tg: (bf08219..) u/grub-mkrescue-i18n (depends on: master)



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Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

[Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko]

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On 22.12.2013 14:24, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:
> В Вс, 22/12/2013 в 12:31 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
> пишет:
>> N_ is not a function, it only marks string for translation for gettext.
>> argp will see the whole string with no indication how N_ was used. It
>> will resplit the string at \v and pass both halves to gettext which will
>> fail to find the second half in the catalog
>>
> 
> OK, I see. In this case verbatim replacement using separately
> translatable strings would be patch below (I actually tested it using
> old catalog, which works with exception of sentence in question, which
> changed too much). Is there any reason "xorriso ..." is not part of
> string? It would make it even more simple.
> 
It's bad idea to have commands as part of translatable strings. Suppose
command changes, then the string will become fuzzy. If unfuzzying is
done too quickly we may end up with a wrong command altogether.
Patch is good for me.
@Benne: does it address your concern?
> From: Andrey Borzenkov <arvidjaar@gmail.com>
> Subject: [PATCH] split grub-mkresecue help text to facilitate translations
> 
> Reported by Benno Schulenberg
> 
> ---
>  util/grub-mkrescue.c | 25 ++++++++++++++++---------
>  1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/util/grub-mkrescue.c b/util/grub-mkrescue.c
> index ad45f9c..ad132ef 100644
> --- a/util/grub-mkrescue.c
> +++ b/util/grub-mkrescue.c
> @@ -119,8 +119,22 @@ help_filter (int key, const char *text, void *input __attribute__ ((unused)))
>  {
>    switch (key)
>      {
> +    case ARGP_KEY_HELP_PRE_DOC:
> +      /* TRANSLATORS: it generates one single image which is bootable through any method. */
> +      return strdup (_("Make GRUB CD-ROM, disk, pendrive and floppy bootable image."));
>      case ARGP_KEY_HELP_POST_DOC:
> -      return xasprintf (text, "xorriso -as mkisofs -help");
> +      {
> +	char *p1, *out;
> +
> +	p1 = xasprintf (_("Generates a bootable CD/USB/floppy image.  Arguments other than options to this program"
> +      " are passed to xorriso, and indicate source files, source directories, or any of the "
> +      "mkisofs options listed by the output of `%s'."), "xorriso -as mkisofs -help");
> +	out = xasprintf ("%s\n\n%s\n\n%s", p1,
> +	  _("Option -- switches to native xorriso command mode."),
> +	  _("Mail xorriso support requests to <bug-xorriso@gnu.org>."));
> +	free (p1);
> +	return out;
> +      }
>      default:
>        return grub_install_help_filter (key, text, input);
>      }
> @@ -214,14 +228,7 @@ argp_parser (int key, char *arg, struct argp_state *state)
>  
>  struct argp argp = {
>    options, argp_parser, N_("[OPTION] SOURCE..."),
> -  /* TRANSLATORS: it generates one single image which is bootable through any method. */
> -  N_("Make GRUB CD-ROM, disk, pendrive and floppy bootable image.")"\v"
> -  N_("Generates a bootable CD/USB/floppy image.  Arguments other than options to this program"
> -     " are passed to xorriso, and indicate source files, source directories, or any of the "
> -     "mkisofs options listed by the output of `%s'.\n\n"
> -     "Option -- switches to native xorriso command mode.\n\n"
> -     "Mail xorriso support requests to <bug-xorriso@gnu.org>."), 
> -  NULL, help_filter, NULL
> +  NULL, NULL, help_filter, NULL
>  };
>  
>  static void
> 



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Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

[Benno Schulenberg]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013, at 14:37, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko wrote:
> @Benno: does it address your concern?

It does.  Thanks.

Regards,

Benno

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Re: please attempt to minimize string changes

[Benno Schulenberg]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013, at 0:55, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko wrote:
> Hello, currently bug-grub is subscriber-only list. I'll think of how to
> change this. Probably it will be changed to moderated or the mail for
> msgid bugs will be changed to another ML (the one I currently
> redirecting you to).

Thanks.  Yes, the devel list would be good, I think.

> > By the way, in grub-core/commands/terminal.c, couldn't
> >   "[--append|--remove] [TERMINAL1] [TERMINAL2] ..."
> > simply be:
> >   "[--append|--remove] [TERMINAL...]"?
> 
> I find second less clear since it's more difficult to guess that the
> "..." stands for ("[TERMINAL3]",...)

As Andrey pointed out, it is the standard way in Unix manuals,
the dots meaning: "as many more of the preceding as you want".

And the dots are used that way in many other places in grub, and
therefore seeing "[TERMINAL1] [TERMINAL2] ..." confuses me
-- do I have to provdide two terminals? no, the first is optional,
ehm, and the second too, ehm, so why are two mentioned?

> When proofreading Ukrainian and French translations we've found a number
> of unclear msgids. I'll make beta2 tomorrow to reflect those changes.

Okay, thanks.

Regards,

Benno

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