Elks Distribution

Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

Hi Everyone,

I have been playing around with Elks for a few months now and have built an
80286 system happily booting and running from its hard drive. The system is
0.1.0 but I have had horrendous problems trying to get through the
fdisk/mkfs/mount stage of the hard disk install. I got there in the end but
I am still not quite sure how. It usually looked ok until I tried to mount
the filesystem. I then got a none minix file system error. I have noticed
that this is not an issue on older releases - for instance 0.0.82.

Are there any fixes around for this that I may be missing ?

As I say. Its running now but I still suffer from the problem elsewhere as I
detail further down.

I have also been playing with Elks in PocketDos on a HP Jornada 690. Not too
far into that yet but all seems to be fine. I haven't got to 0.1.0 here yet.

I have now moved onto looking for some sort of a challenge for myself that I
may be able to contribute to the project. My C skills are not to the
standard of the majority of the contributors here. Hence I am not so
comfortable at low levels. I noticed, though, in the documentation that
Question 1.3 says "Are there any ready-to-run distributions of ELKS". The
answer says no and goes on to invite interest to build something. Is this
still the case ? Are there no distributions ?

During the course of my experimenting I have been playing with scripts that
install ELKS to the hard drive from a root and boot floppy. I guess this is
the start of a distribution ? My current script will only run, so far, into
/dev/bda1. It was devised as a way to save me some time really.

I am currently trying to persuade my script to setup the hard drive to boot.
I did it manually so I expect I will soon have it working from my install
routine too. In due course I may well re-write the script in, perhaps C ? I
would also like to make the Install Floppy Disk be for a 0.1.0 system but
the problems that I outlined at the head of this message prevent that just
now.

Is what I have been up to of interest. Maybe good for less technical people
who want a first look at Elks ?

Have fun ! (I am)

Neil

Re: Elks Distribution

[Javier Sedano]

Neil Holmes wrote:
> 
> Are there any fixes around for this that I may be missing ?
> 

	There has been a discussion about it in the last days, so I suppose
they are working on it.

> 
> I have now moved onto looking for some sort of a challenge for myself that I
> may be able to contribute to the project. My C skills are not to the
> standard of the majority of the contributors here. Hence I am not so
> comfortable at low levels. I noticed, though, in the documentation that
> Question 1.3 says "Are there any ready-to-run distributions of ELKS". The
> answer says no and goes on to invite interest to build something. Is this
> still the case ? Are there no distributions ?
> 

	As far as I know, nobody is working on it, so your work will be
appreciated.

> During the course of my experimenting I have been playing with scripts that
> install ELKS to the hard drive from a root and boot floppy. I guess this is
> the start of a distribution ? My current script will only run, so far, into
> /dev/bda1. It was devised as a way to save me some time really.
> 

	On my side, it is a danger, since I have MSDOS-win30 in bda1 and Minix
in bda2, so I need to change to bda3

> I am currently trying to persuade my script to setup the hard drive to boot.
> I did it manually so I expect I will soon have it working from my install
> routine too. In due course I may well re-write the script in, perhaps C ?

	I wouldn't do so. Scripts are slower, and sometimes larger, but much
easier to modify (just mount the floppy under UNIX/Linux and edit it). I
would advice scripts, if I were asked.

> I
> would also like to make the Install Floppy Disk be for a 0.1.0 system but
> the problems that I outlined at the head of this message prevent that just
> now.
> 

	One hint: keep two distribution. A stable, with that you know that
(almost) works. And publish it in the web page. And keep working on
other, published here (and as alpha/beta in the web, if you want), until
it reaches stable state.

> Is what I have been up to of interest. Maybe good for less technical people
> who want a first look at Elks ?
> 

	I think so.

-- 
El trabajo en equipo es esencial, te permite echarle la culpa a otro.
--------
Javier Sedano Jarillo      http://www.it.uc3m.es/~jsedano
 jsedano@dit.upm.es (*)
 jsedano@ieee.org

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

It sounds like your distribution is in advance of that which I have
produced thus far Richard.

My first "stable" version is ready now. I am not sure what the procedure
is here but I have attached a zip file EDE.zip to this email which
contains two floppy image files for install disk one and disk two.

I would be interested to here how it runs elsewhere. 

Here are some notes on what to expect.

- I have tested it on 80286 and 80386 machines.
- I recommend creating a dos partition before starting (at least 20Mb)
- The install will create a 20Mb ELks /dev/bda1
- This first version will only install to /dev/bda1

DON'T TRY IT UNLESS YOU HAVE A BLANK SYSTEM TO PLAY WITH

- There are 2 install floppys. The first is a 0.0.82 kernel root/boot
disk that I am using as an interim measure ot create the filesystem
until 0.1.0 is ok.

- Boot system with floppy 1
- You then have to login as root (as indicated) to start the install
- The install kicks off fdisk
- Set partition type to 81
- Ensure partition is bootable.  
- The script, at the moment, then drops to the hash prompt requesting
disk change and reboot.

- As instructed reboot the system with disk 2
- Again login as root to continue the install
- Everything is automated now.
- The end is a little scruffy at the moment. (You have to wait for
reboot to start before taking the floppy out).

- The system should then reboot into your new ELKS system.

I will be doing a lot more to make this more attractive but I thought it
was a starting point.

I hope you like it.

Feedback appreciated.

Thanks

Neil

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I have used the minix bootloader from the bcc bootblocks in the
Distribution. 

The question has been asked, which I did not think of before. Am I ok to
use that ? Does anyone know ?

Thanks

Neil

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I played with lilo to start with and didn't get to far. I guess I will
have to look to revisit at some point soon. Lilo, of course, will
resolve some of my dual-booting issues too.

On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:31, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> Or base the bootloader on LILO... in that case ELKS stay 100% GPL. Or just
> base the code on a part of LILO, and call it LILO8086 or something.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

You may be right. I have no idea what is required to go about achieving
that.

By the way - have you tried my disks ?

On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:41, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> Maybe it will be nice to set up a serperated CVS' for the ELKS Distro's,
> programs and ofcourse a bootloader.
> 
> On 25 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
> 
> > I played with lilo to start with and didn't get to far. I guess I will
> > have to look to revisit at some point soon. Lilo, of course, will
> > resolve some of my dual-booting issues too.
> >
> > On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:31, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> > > Or base the bootloader on LILO... in that case ELKS stay 100% GPL. Or just
> > > base the code on a part of LILO, and call it LILO8086 or something.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> >
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I have now installed from the disks onto a Daewoo DN7400 486 mini
laptop. That seems to work fine too.

Time for bed now !

Tomorrow I will review my shopping list for the next version. 

Please make any suggestions.

Thanks for your interest.

Neil

On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:47, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> Not Yet :( my ELKS pc is locked up in a teachers locker till wednesday.
> Its a Compaq Portable III @ 9.3KG a heavy animal to take every day to home
> :'(. But I have good hope that I get ELKS projectspace :)
> 
> But I'm gonna try it, in this house are more 286 pcs >:)
> 
> On 25 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
> 
> > You may be right. I have no idea what is required to go about achieving
> > that.
> >
> > By the way - have you tried my disks ?
> >
> > On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:41, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> > > Maybe it will be nice to set up a serperated CVS' for the ELKS Distro's,
> > > programs and ofcourse a bootloader.
> > >
> > > On 25 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
> > >
> > > > I played with lilo to start with and didn't get to far. I guess I will
> > > > have to look to revisit at some point soon. Lilo, of course, will
> > > > resolve some of my dual-booting issues too.
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:31, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> > > > > Or base the bootloader on LILO... in that case ELKS stay 100% GPL. Or just
> > > > > base the code on a part of LILO, and call it LILO8086 or something.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > > > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

Does this all includes a bootloader?

> - The system should then reboot into your new ELKS system.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 1741 bytes --]

Hi Neil.

> It sounds like your distribution is in advance of that which I have
> produced thus far Richard.
>
> My first "stable" version is ready now. I am not sure what the
> procedure is here but I have attached a zip file EDE.zip to this
> email which contains two floppy image files for install disk one
> and disk two.
>
> I would be interested to hear how it runs elsewhere. 
>
> Here are some notes on what to expect.
>
> - I have tested it on 80286 and 80386 machines.
> - I recommend creating a dos partition before starting (at least 20Mb)
> - The install will create a 20Mb ELks /dev/bda1
> - This first version will only install to /dev/bda1
>
> DON'T TRY IT UNLESS YOU HAVE A BLANK SYSTEM TO PLAY WITH

Some thoughts regarding the above which you may wish to consider:

 1. If the target partition has to be fixed, then it would make more
    sense to select /dev/bda4 as the ELKS partition to use, as MSDOS
    (and most other operating systems) allocate starting at the low
    end of the numbers.

 2. The ideal would be to have it parse the partition table looking
    for a suitable partition, where "suitable" is defined as being

     a. Smaller than 31M (the claimed limit of the file system
	format used for ELKS, and

     b. Of partition type 80 hex (the "Old Minix" partition that ELKS
	uses for its filesystem).

I've added a command to the elkscmd CVS tree that deals with point 2b
above (look for partype.c in the disk_utils directory) and the source
is enclosed for reference. It takes the desired partition code as a
command-line parameter, so is generic in that sense. It also checks both
/dev/hda and /dev/sda if it can't find /dev/bda so in that sense is not
ELKS-specific either.

Best wishes from Riley.

[-- Attachment #2: Source for partype.c program. --]
[-- Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 3206 bytes --]

/* partype v1.0.0 Partition type locator
 * Copyright (C) 2002, Riley H Williams G7GOD,
 * Released under the GNU General Public Licence, version 2 only.
 *
 * This program searches the partition table of the primary hard drive for
 * a partition with a particular hex code for the partition type. It only
 * searches the four primary partitions, not logical partitions.
 *
 * If it finds any partitions of the specified type, it displays the name
 * of the lowest numbered partition on stdout.
 *
 * On completion, it returns one of the following error codes:
 *
 *	  0	No partition with the specified type was found.
 *
 *	  1	Partition /dev/bda1 has the specified type.
 *	  2	Partition /dev/bda2 has the specified type.
 *	  3	Partition /dev/bda3 has the specified type.
 *	  4	Partition /dev/bda4 has the specified type.
 *
 *	 65	Partition /dev/hda1 has the specified type.
 *	 66	Partition /dev/hda2 has the specified type.
 *	 67	Partition /dev/hda3 has the specified type.
 *	 68	Partition /dev/hda4 has the specified type.
 *
 *	129	Partition /dev/sda1 has the specified type.
 *	130	Partition /dev/sda2 has the specified type.
 *	131	Partition /dev/sda3 has the specified type.
 *	132	Partition /dev/sda4 has the specified type.
 *
 *	252	The raw drive is not seekable.
 *	253	Neither /dev/hda nor /dev/bda is available.
 *	254	An invalid partition type was specified.
 *	255	Usage message displayed.
 *
 * Note that the error code only indicates the FIRST partition in the
 * sequence listed above that is of the relevant type.
 */

#include <stdio.h>

unsigned char digit(char ch)
{
    if (ch >= '0' && ch <= '9')
	return ch - '0';
    else if (ch >= 'A' && ch <= 'F')
	return ch + 10 - 'A';
    else if (ch >= 'a' && ch <= 'f')
	return ch + 10 - 'a';
    else
	return 0;
}

int main(int argc,char **argv)
{
    unsigned char table[64];
    FILE *fp;
    char *ptr = argv[1], *drive = "/dev/bda";
    unsigned char n, partition = 0, result = 0;

    if (argc != 2) {
	fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s <type>\n\n", *argv);
	fprintf(stderr, "Where <type> is the hexadecimal partition type required\n");
	exit(255);
    }
    while (*ptr) {
	partition *= 16;
	partition += digit(*ptr++);
    }
    if (!partition) {
	fprintf(stderr, "ERROR 1: Invalid partition type: %02X (%s)\n",
		partition, argv[1]);
	exit(254);
    }
    
    if ((fp = fopen(drive,"rb")) == NULL) {
	drive[5] = 'h';
	if ((fp = fopen(drive,"rb")) == NULL) {
	    drive[5] = 's';
	    if ((fp = fopen(drive,"rb")) == NULL) {
		fprintf(stderr, "ERROR 2: Can't open raw drive.\n");
		fprintf(stderr, "         Searched /dev/hda - /dev/sda - /dev/bda only.\n");
		exit(253);
	    }
	}
    }
    if (fseek(fp,0x1c0,SEEK_SET)) {
	fprintf(stderr, "ERROR 3: Can't seek to partition table in /dev/bda\n");
	exit(252);
    }
    for (n=0; n<64; n++)
	table[n] = fgetc(fp);
    for (n=4; n; n--)
	if (table[16*n-14] == partition)
	    result = n;
    if (result) {
	printf("%s%d\n",drive,result);
	switch (drive[5]) {
	    case 's':
		result += 64;
	    case 'h':
		result += 64;
	    case 'b':
		break;
	}
    }
    exit(result);
}

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

I think we have to make a notice:

LEGAL STATUS OF MINIX Although MINIX is supplied with the complete source
code, it is copyrighted software. However, the copyright owner has granted
everyone the right to redistribute or sell it, with or without source
code, in unmodified or modified form. For all practical purposes, MINIX
can be treated as if it were in the public domain. For a copy of the
complete MINIX license, written in Middle English, click here.


        Copyright (c) 1987,1997, Prentice Hall
        All rights reserved.

        Redistribution and use of the MINIX operating system in source and
        binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided
        that the following conditions are met:

           * Redistributions of source code must retain the above
copyright
             notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.

           * Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above
             copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following
             disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials
provided
             with the distribution.

           * Neither the name of Prentice Hall nor the names of the
software
             authors or contributors may be used to endorse or promote
             products derived from this software without specific prior
             written permission.

        THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS, AUTHORS, AND
        CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES,
        INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
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LIABILITY,
        WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING
NEGLIGENCE
        OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE,
        EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

Or base the bootloader on LILO... in that case ELKS stay 100% GPL. Or just
base the code on a part of LILO, and call it LILO8086 or something.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

Maybe it will be nice to set up a serperated CVS' for the ELKS Distro's,
programs and ofcourse a bootloader.

On 25 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> I played with lilo to start with and didn't get to far. I guess I will
> have to look to revisit at some point soon. Lilo, of course, will
> resolve some of my dual-booting issues too.
>
> On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:31, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> > Or base the bootloader on LILO... in that case ELKS stay 100% GPL. Or just
> > base the code on a part of LILO, and call it LILO8086 or something.
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> >
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

Not Yet :( my ELKS pc is locked up in a teachers locker till wednesday.
Its a Compaq Portable III @ 9.3KG a heavy animal to take every day to home
:'(. But I have good hope that I get ELKS projectspace :)

But I'm gonna try it, in this house are more 286 pcs >:)

On 25 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> You may be right. I have no idea what is required to go about achieving
> that.
>
> By the way - have you tried my disks ?
>
> On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:41, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> > Maybe it will be nice to set up a serperated CVS' for the ELKS Distro's,
> > programs and ofcourse a bootloader.
> >
> > On 25 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
> >
> > > I played with lilo to start with and didn't get to far. I guess I will
> > > have to look to revisit at some point soon. Lilo, of course, will
> > > resolve some of my dual-booting issues too.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:31, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> > > > Or base the bootloader on LILO... in that case ELKS stay 100% GPL. Or just
> > > > base the code on a part of LILO, and call it LILO8086 or something.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> >
>
>

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

In that case >:) sleep wel :)

On 25 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> I have now installed from the disks onto a Daewoo DN7400 486 mini
> laptop. That seems to work fine too.
>
> Time for bed now !
>
> Tomorrow I will review my shopping list for the next version.
>
> Please make any suggestions.
>
> Thanks for your interest.
>
> Neil
>
> On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:47, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> > Not Yet :( my ELKS pc is locked up in a teachers locker till wednesday.
> > Its a Compaq Portable III @ 9.3KG a heavy animal to take every day to home
> > :'(. But I have good hope that I get ELKS projectspace :)
> >
> > But I'm gonna try it, in this house are more 286 pcs >:)
> >
> > On 25 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
> >
> > > You may be right. I have no idea what is required to go about achieving
> > > that.
> > >
> > > By the way - have you tried my disks ?
> > >
> > > On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:41, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> > > > Maybe it will be nice to set up a serperated CVS' for the ELKS Distro's,
> > > > programs and ofcourse a bootloader.
> > > >
> > > > On 25 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I played with lilo to start with and didn't get to far. I guess I will
> > > > > have to look to revisit at some point soon. Lilo, of course, will
> > > > > resolve some of my dual-booting issues too.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 00:31, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> > > > > > Or base the bootloader on LILO... in that case ELKS stay 100% GPL. Or just
> > > > > > base the code on a part of LILO, and call it LILO8086 or something.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > > > > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > > > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > > > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> > > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I will, indeed, look very closely at your remarks as I move forward. I
am particularly interested by the partition.c.

I'll keep everyone posted.

Many Thanks

Neil

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 23:55, Riley Williams wrote:
> Hi Neil.
> 
> > It sounds like your distribution is in advance of that which I have
> > produced thus far Richard.
> >
> > My first "stable" version is ready now. I am not sure what the
> > procedure is here but I have attached a zip file EDE.zip to this
> > email which contains two floppy image files for install disk one
> > and disk two.
> >
> > I would be interested to hear how it runs elsewhere. 
> >
> > Here are some notes on what to expect.
> >
> > - I have tested it on 80286 and 80386 machines.
> > - I recommend creating a dos partition before starting (at least 20Mb)
> > - The install will create a 20Mb ELks /dev/bda1
> > - This first version will only install to /dev/bda1
> >
> > DON'T TRY IT UNLESS YOU HAVE A BLANK SYSTEM TO PLAY WITH
> 
> Some thoughts regarding the above which you may wish to consider:
> 
>  1. If the target partition has to be fixed, then it would make more
>     sense to select /dev/bda4 as the ELKS partition to use, as MSDOS
>     (and most other operating systems) allocate starting at the low
>     end of the numbers.
> 
>  2. The ideal would be to have it parse the partition table looking
>     for a suitable partition, where "suitable" is defined as being
> 
>      a. Smaller than 31M (the claimed limit of the file system
> 	format used for ELKS, and
> 
>      b. Of partition type 80 hex (the "Old Minix" partition that ELKS
> 	uses for its filesystem).
> 
> I've added a command to the elkscmd CVS tree that deals with point 2b
> above (look for partype.c in the disk_utils directory) and the source
> is enclosed for reference. It takes the desired partition code as a
> command-line parameter, so is generic in that sense. It also checks both
> /dev/hda and /dev/sda if it can't find /dev/bda so in that sense is not
> ELKS-specific either.
> 
> Best wishes from Riley.
> ----
> 

> /* partype v1.0.0 Partition type locator
>  * Copyright (C) 2002, Riley H Williams G7GOD,
>  * Released under the GNU General Public Licence, version 2 only.
>  *
>  * This program searches the partition table of the primary hard drive for
>  * a partition with a particular hex code for the partition type. It only
>  * searches the four primary partitions, not logical partitions.
>  *
>  * If it finds any partitions of the specified type, it displays the name
>  * of the lowest numbered partition on stdout.
>  *
>  * On completion, it returns one of the following error codes:
>  *
>  *	  0	No partition with the specified type was found.
>  *
>  *	  1	Partition /dev/bda1 has the specified type.
>  *	  2	Partition /dev/bda2 has the specified type.
>  *	  3	Partition /dev/bda3 has the specified type.
>  *	  4	Partition /dev/bda4 has the specified type.
>  *
>  *	 65	Partition /dev/hda1 has the specified type.
>  *	 66	Partition /dev/hda2 has the specified type.
>  *	 67	Partition /dev/hda3 has the specified type.
>  *	 68	Partition /dev/hda4 has the specified type.
>  *
>  *	129	Partition /dev/sda1 has the specified type.
>  *	130	Partition /dev/sda2 has the specified type.
>  *	131	Partition /dev/sda3 has the specified type.
>  *	132	Partition /dev/sda4 has the specified type.
>  *
>  *	252	The raw drive is not seekable.
>  *	253	Neither /dev/hda nor /dev/bda is available.
>  *	254	An invalid partition type was specified.
>  *	255	Usage message displayed.
>  *
>  * Note that the error code only indicates the FIRST partition in the
>  * sequence listed above that is of the relevant type.
>  */
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> 
> unsigned char digit(char ch)
> {
>     if (ch >= '0' && ch <= '9')
> 	return ch - '0';
>     else if (ch >= 'A' && ch <= 'F')
> 	return ch + 10 - 'A';
>     else if (ch >= 'a' && ch <= 'f')
> 	return ch + 10 - 'a';
>     else
> 	return 0;
> }
> 
> int main(int argc,char **argv)
> {
>     unsigned char table[64];
>     FILE *fp;
>     char *ptr = argv[1], *drive = "/dev/bda";
>     unsigned char n, partition = 0, result = 0;
> 
>     if (argc != 2) {
> 	fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s <type>\n\n", *argv);
> 	fprintf(stderr, "Where <type> is the hexadecimal partition type required\n");
> 	exit(255);
>     }
>     while (*ptr) {
> 	partition *= 16;
> 	partition += digit(*ptr++);
>     }
>     if (!partition) {
> 	fprintf(stderr, "ERROR 1: Invalid partition type: %02X (%s)\n",
> 		partition, argv[1]);
> 	exit(254);
>     }
>     
>     if ((fp = fopen(drive,"rb")) == NULL) {
> 	drive[5] = 'h';
> 	if ((fp = fopen(drive,"rb")) == NULL) {
> 	    drive[5] = 's';
> 	    if ((fp = fopen(drive,"rb")) == NULL) {
> 		fprintf(stderr, "ERROR 2: Can't open raw drive.\n");
> 		fprintf(stderr, "         Searched /dev/hda - /dev/sda - /dev/bda only.\n");
> 		exit(253);
> 	    }
> 	}
>     }
>     if (fseek(fp,0x1c0,SEEK_SET)) {
> 	fprintf(stderr, "ERROR 3: Can't seek to partition table in /dev/bda\n");
> 	exit(252);
>     }
>     for (n=0; n<64; n++)
> 	table[n] = fgetc(fp);
>     for (n=4; n; n--)
> 	if (table[16*n-14] == partition)
> 	    result = n;
>     if (result) {
> 	printf("%s%d\n",drive,result);
> 	switch (drive[5]) {
> 	    case 's':
> 		result += 64;
> 	    case 'h':
> 		result += 64;
> 	    case 'b':
> 		break;
> 	}
>     }
>     exit(result);
> }

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I am sorry for my ignorance in this area. Does this mean I am ok to
continue using them ?

Many Thanks

Neil

On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 15:37, Blaz Antonic wrote:
> > I have used the minix bootloader from the bcc bootblocks in the
> > Distribution.
> > 
> > The question has been asked, which I did not think of before. Am I ok to
> > use that ? Does anyone know ?
> 
> You are using bootloaders Robert De Bath wrote AFAIK ? These are minixfs
> bootloaders (as in: capable of booting ELKS off of minix filesystem),
> not Minix bootloaders .. IIRC.
> 
> Blaz Antonic
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Neil.

> I will, indeed, look very closely at your remarks as I move forward.
> I am particularly interested by the partition.c.

If you're using ash as your install shell, you should be able to use the
following script...

	#!/bin/ash

		:

	fdisk /dev/bda
	TGT=$(partype 80)

...and, from this point, you just use ${TGT} as the target partition.
I can't test this at the moment as I'm not near a suitable system, so
the above is pure theory at this point. However, memory says that sash
does not support the necessary facilities.

Also note that if we move to /dev/hda instead of /dev/bda then only the
fdisk line needs changing, and the rest of the code will work as is.

Best wishes from Riley.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

Many Thanks.

This is valuable information.

Neil

On Sun, 2002-05-26 at 09:00, Riley Williams wrote:
> Hi Neil.
> 
> > I will, indeed, look very closely at your remarks as I move forward.
> > I am particularly interested by the partition.c.
> 
> If you're using ash as your install shell, you should be able to use the
> following script...
> 
> 	#!/bin/ash
> 
> 		:
> 
> 	fdisk /dev/bda
> 	TGT=$(partype 80)
> 
> ...and, from this point, you just use ${TGT} as the target partition.
> I can't test this at the moment as I'm not near a suitable system, so
> the above is pure theory at this point. However, memory says that sash
> does not support the necessary facilities.
> 
> Also note that if we move to /dev/hda instead of /dev/bda then only the
> fdisk line needs changing, and the rest of the code will work as is.
> 
> Best wishes from Riley.
> 
> 

Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Neil.

>>> I will, indeed, look very closely at your remarks as I move forward.
>>> I am particularly interested by the partition.c.

Note that it's called partype (for "partition type) and not partition.

>> If you're using ash as your install shell, you should be able to use
>> the following script...
>>
>> 	#!/bin/ash
>> 
>> 		:
>> 
>> 	fdisk /dev/bda
>> 	TGT=$(partype 80)
>> 
>> ...and, from this point, you just use ${TGT} as the target
>> partition. I can't test this at the moment as I'm not near a
>> suitable system, so the above is pure theory at this point. However,
>> memory says that sash does not support the necessary facilities.
>>
>> Also note that if we move to /dev/hda instead of /dev/bda then only
>> the fdisk line needs changing, and the rest of the code will work as
>> is.

> Many Thanks. This is valuable information.

You'll also be pleased to hear that the code for partype.c was developed
using `gcc -Wall -pedantic` and, as a result, compiles and runs on Linux
as well as ELKS. It needs `bcc -ansi` to compile for ELKS, but we're
using that anyway, so it's not a problem.

I tested it on my Linux system by running `partype 83 ; echo $?` to
check it gave the right results, and it does.

Best wishes from Riley.

Re: Elks Distribution

[pauln]

On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 09:52:02PM +0100, Neil Holmes wrote:
> It sounds like your distribution is in advance of that which I have
> produced thus far Richard.
> 
> My first "stable" version is ready now. I am not sure what the procedure
> is here but I have attached a zip file EDE.zip to this email which
> contains two floppy image files for install disk one and disk two.

May just be me but can't see attachment here or in the archives

http://rainbow.cs.unipi.gr/linux-8086-list/2002/05/attachment.html

Can you put up a link to a site or resend it.

Paul

Re: Elks Distribution

[Nicholas Knight]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan de Konink" <skinkie@kinkrsoftware.xs4all.nl>
To: "Neil Holmes" <neil.holmes@zoom.co.uk>
Cc: "Linux 8086" <linux-8086@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: Elks Distribution


> I think we have to make a notice:

<snip BSD-ish license>

(IANAL)

As far as I can tell, the current MINIX license (the one you just posted) is
essentialy identicle in every respect but precise wording to what is now
known genericaly as the "New", "Modified", or "Revised" BSD License.
Essentialy it just removes clause #3 (the Advertising Clause). A good
example is the X11 license:
http://www.x.org/terms.htm

This license is fully compatible with the GPL (and pretty much every other
software license ever used...). Meaning you can use the code with GPL'd code
with no problems. The GPL has the same restrictions as this license, in that
it, too, requires the copyright notices to remain intact.

If you'd like in-practice examples, check any of a large number of peices of
GPL'd software. I believe the Linux kernel itself includes code licensed
under the revised BSD license.

In short: You can use any code from MINIX as much as you want. Just keep the
copyright notices intact (and possibly add them, if neccisary), just as the
GPL requires. This is pretty much the entire point of BSD-ish licenses, do
whatever the heck you want with the code as long as credit is given where
due.

GNU's license list:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
You'll find X11 and modified BSD license, as well as the Expat (sometimes
called "MIT") License, listed under "GPL-Compatible, Free Software
Licenses".


The original BSD License is viewable here:
http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/license.html

As you can see, it includes clause #3, this is incompatible with the GPL
because the GPL does not include that restriction, and the GPL forbids
additional restrictions. The MINIX license does not have this clause.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Blaz Antonic]

> I have used the minix bootloader from the bcc bootblocks in the
> Distribution.
> 
> The question has been asked, which I did not think of before. Am I ok to
> use that ? Does anyone know ?

You are using bootloaders Robert De Bath wrote AFAIK ? These are minixfs
bootloaders (as in: capable of booting ELKS off of minix filesystem),
not Minix bootloaders .. IIRC.

Blaz Antonic

Re: Elks Distribution

[Blaz Antonic]

> I am sorry for my ignorance in this area. Does this mean I am ok to
> continue using them ?

Well ya, i believe Rob released entire Dev86 package under GPL :) Please
check out the source files, if there is any restriction placed on their
use it should be stated so at the top. I don't recall seeing any
restriction .. ever.

Blaz Antonic

Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Neil.

Update to the following...

>> I will, indeed, look very closely at your remarks as I move forward.
>> I am particularly interested by the partition.c.

> If you're using ash as your install shell, you should be able to use the
> following script...
>
>	#!/bin/ash
>
>		:
>
>	fdisk /dev/bda
>	TGT=$(partype 80)

	if test -n "${TGT}" ; then
		# Use ${TGT} as partition.
	else
		# No partition of type 80 found, so error.
	fi

> ...and, from this point, you just use ${TGT} as the target partition.
> I can't test this at the moment as I'm not near a suitable system, so
> the above is pure theory at this point. However, memory says that sash
> does not support the necessary facilities.
> 
> Also note that if we move to /dev/hda instead of /dev/bda then only the
> fdisk line needs changing, and the rest of the code will work as is.

As shown by the additional code above, a test immediately following the
partype line determines whether installation is possible as indicated
above. Alternatively, code similar to the following could be used...

	export TGT=''
	while test -z "${TGT}" ; do
		fdisk /dev/bda
		TGT=$(partype 80)
		if test -z "${TGT}" ; then
			echo Need at least one partition of type 80.
			sleep 5
		fi
	done

...as this guarantees that a suitable partition will exist once the
while loop finishes.

Best wishes from Riley.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Javier Sedano]

Neil Holmes wrote:
> 
> I have used the minix bootloader from the bcc bootblocks in the
> Distribution.
> 
> The question has been asked, which I did not think of before. Am I ok to
> use that ? Does anyone know ?
> 

	Pascal Bellard wrote a HD boot loader for ELKS (I don't know the
license it is distributed with, and I've never seen the sources). I
think it could even boot MSDOS in other partition, right, Pascal?

-- 
when i do cat /vmlinuz > /dev/audio , I can hear the voice of God.
--------
Javier Sedano Jarillo      http://www.it.uc3m.es/~jsedano
 jsedano@dit.upm.es (*)
 jsedano@ieee.org

Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I have put up an Elks-esque web page on my ISP space to aid keeping a visual
grasp on where the project is at.

I have no problems in moving either ftp site or web page if people would
rather that was the case.

The URL is :-

 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/

Thanks

Neil

Re: Elks Distribution

[Dan Olson]

Okay, maybe this is crazy, but maybe not :)  When digging through my pile
of 3.5" disks that I was to lazy to label (I was looking for my ELKS disk)
I grabbed what turned out to be a slackware boot disk.  I stuck in in my
IBM PC, and it started to boot up fine, until Linux got far enough along
to switch out of virtual 8086 mode when it of course died.  My point is,
will Lilo run on an 8088 or is there really code in there that will cause
problems?

	Dan


On Sun, 26 May 2002, Stefan de Konink wrote:

> Or base the bootloader on LILO... in that case ELKS stay 100% GPL. Or just
> base the code on a part of LILO, and call it LILO8086 or something.
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Javier.

>>> I will arrange somewhere to post my distributions for download.
>>>
>>> I'll post a message when I have this arranged.

>> ftp.linux.org.uk will be happy to provide space

> Wouldn't it be better to upload that files to the official ELKS home
> page at sourceforge? Riley?

Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images in
a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a 1.44M
3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no problem with
the idea, and my recommended route would be to create an elkscmd/hdinst
directory in the existing tree and develop this in there, then go from
that.

Comments?

Best wishes from Riley.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

kuch, kuch... only for 1.44 :'( can we make it work on 1.2mb and 360K
disks too?

On Mon, 27 May 2002, Riley Williams wrote:

> Hi Javier.
>
> >>> I will arrange somewhere to post my distributions for download.
> >>>
> >>> I'll post a message when I have this arranged.
>
> >> ftp.linux.org.uk will be happy to provide space
>
> > Wouldn't it be better to upload that files to the official ELKS home
> > page at sourceforge? Riley?
>
> Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
> implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images in
> a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a 1.44M
> 3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no problem with
> the idea, and my recommended route would be to create an elkscmd/hdinst
> directory in the existing tree and develop this in there, then go from
> that.
>
> Comments?
>
> Best wishes from Riley.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

Re: Elks Distribution

[Michael McConnell]

On Mon, 27 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> I have put up an Elks-esque web page on my ISP space to aid keeping a visual
> grasp on where the project is at.
> 
> I have no problems in moving either ftp site or web page if people would
> rather that was the case.
> 
> The URL is :-
> 
>  http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/

I tried the images in the Dev directory - but couldn't get it to boot 
correctly...

Since I don't have a spare machine, I've tried loading it in Bochs 1.4 ...

screenshot at http://www.eridani.co.uk/misc/bochs+elks.png

-- Michael "Soruk" McConnell		           [Eridani Linux 6.3 Now!]
Eridani Linux  --  The Most Up-to-Date Red Hat-based Linux CDROMs Available
Email: linux@eridani.co.uk  http://www.eridani.co.uk   Fax: +44-8701-600807
    "No. 'Eureka' is Greek for 'This bath is too hot.'" - Dr Who.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

Thanks Riley.

I have a few things to do before I get to disk formats. Thankyou for your,
as ever, very useful information.

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Riley Williams
Sent: 27 May 2002 19:53
To: Javier Sedano
Cc: Linux 8086
Subject: Re: Elks Distribution


Hi Javier.

>>> I will arrange somewhere to post my distributions for download.
>>>
>>> I'll post a message when I have this arranged.

>> ftp.linux.org.uk will be happy to provide space

> Wouldn't it be better to upload that files to the official ELKS home
> page at sourceforge? Riley?

Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images in
a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a 1.44M
3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no problem with
the idea, and my recommended route would be to create an elkscmd/hdinst
directory in the existing tree and develop this in there, then go from
that.

Comments?

Best wishes from Riley.

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

lilo is away down the line for me just now. I have planty of other aspects
to keep me occupied. If you find out more I would ne interested to know.

Many Thanks

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Dan Olson
Sent: 27 May 2002 17:59
To: Linux 8086
Subject: Re: Elks Distribution


Okay, maybe this is crazy, but maybe not :)  When digging through my pile
of 3.5" disks that I was to lazy to label (I was looking for my ELKS disk)
I grabbed what turned out to be a slackware boot disk.  I stuck in in my
IBM PC, and it started to boot up fine, until Linux got far enough along
to switch out of virtual 8086 mode when it of course died.  My point is,
will Lilo run on an 8088 or is there really code in there that will cause
problems?

	Dan


On Sun, 26 May 2002, Stefan de Konink wrote:

> Or base the bootloader on LILO... in that case ELKS stay 100% GPL. Or just
> base the code on a part of LILO, and call it LILO8086 or something.
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I do, indeed, intend to look at other formats of floppy in due course. What
I am doind at the moment is, simpply, working with the equipment which I
have. All of which is 1.44Mb floppy. I'll get there as quick as I can.
Thanks for the comment.

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Stefan de Konink
Sent: 27 May 2002 21:23
To: Riley Williams
Cc: Javier Sedano; Linux 8086
Subject: Re: Elks Distribution


kuch, kuch... only for 1.44 :'( can we make it work on 1.2mb and 360K
disks too?

On Mon, 27 May 2002, Riley Williams wrote:

> Hi Javier.
>
> >>> I will arrange somewhere to post my distributions for download.
> >>>
> >>> I'll post a message when I have this arranged.
>
> >> ftp.linux.org.uk will be happy to provide space
>
> > Wouldn't it be better to upload that files to the official ELKS home
> > page at sourceforge? Riley?
>
> Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
> implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images in
> a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a 1.44M
> 3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no problem with
> the idea, and my recommended route would be to create an elkscmd/hdinst
> directory in the existing tree and develop this in there, then go from
> that.
>
> Comments?
>
> Best wishes from Riley.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

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RE: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

Thats interesting. Did the 0.0.82 stable version boot ok ? Obviously the Dev
version is just that a development version. But I thought it was booting
when I put it up.

I have never tried Bochs. Perhaps I had better have a look into that as a
test platform too.

I'll be putting my close of play version up there today so check it out
later.

Many Thanks

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael McConnell [mailto:soruk@eridani.co.uk]
Sent: 27 May 2002 21:35
To: Neil Holmes
Cc: Linux 8086
Subject: Re: Elks Distribution


On Mon, 27 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> I have put up an Elks-esque web page on my ISP space to aid keeping a
visual
> grasp on where the project is at.
>
> I have no problems in moving either ftp site or web page if people would
> rather that was the case.
>
> The URL is :-
>
>  http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/

I tried the images in the Dev directory - but couldn't get it to boot
correctly...

Since I don't have a spare machine, I've tried loading it in Bochs 1.4 ...

screenshot at http://www.eridani.co.uk/misc/bochs+elks.png

-- Michael "Soruk" McConnell		           [Eridani Linux 6.3 Now!]
Eridani Linux  --  The Most Up-to-Date Red Hat-based Linux CDROMs Available
Email: linux@eridani.co.uk  http://www.eridani.co.uk   Fax: +44-8701-600807
    "No. 'Eureka' is Greek for 'This bath is too hot.'" - Dr Who.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Stefan.

>>>>> I will arrange somewhere to post my distributions for download.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll post a message when I have this arranged.

>>>> ftp.linux.org.uk will be happy to provide space

>>> Wouldn't it be better to upload that files to the official ELKS home
>>> page at sourceforge? Riley?

>> Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
>> implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images
>> in a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a
>> 1.44M 3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no
>> problem with the idea, and my recommended route would be to create
>> an elkscmd/hdinst directory in the existing tree and develop this in
>> there, then go from that.
>>
>> Comments?

> kuch, kuch... only for 1.44 :'( can we make it work on 1.2mb and
> 360K disks too?

Here's what is currently implemented:

 1. `make root boot` produces a TWO disk set for 360k drives as the
    root disk is too large to leave room for the kernel on a 360k
    diskette. This is for standalone applications only.

 2. `make comb` produces a single diskette image for 720k drives in
    standalone applications.

 3. There should be (but isn't) a `make net_disk` option that creates
    a separate diskette with the SLIP networking tools on it to go
    with either of the above disks. HarKal implied that he would sort
    this out soon after he finished the SLIP tools, but I've heard no
    more on that since.

 4. `make comb_net` produces a single diskette image for 720k drives
    in SLIP networed applications, omitting some of the utilities on
    the previous image to make room for the SLIP networking.

 5. `make full5` produces a single diskette image for 1200k drives in
    either standalone or SLIP networked applications.

 6. `make full5` produces a single diskette image for 1440k drives in
    either standalone or SLIP networked applications.

As my 286 based laptop has 1440k 3.5" drives, I use `make full3` here,
so that's the one I used in my example.

Best wishes from Riley.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Neil.

> Thanks Riley.
>
> I have a few things to do before I get to disk formats. Thank you for
> your, as ever, very useful information.

No problem. Here's how I would envision your install image working:

 1. The user does the current `make comb` or `make full3` or `make
    full5` to create the relevant bootable system image, which provides
    an outline of the files that should be on the target system. If the
    `make comb` route is taken, they also do `make net` to create one
    with the SLIP networking tools on it.

 2. The user then does a `make imstimg` that creates a second system
    image, which produces a 720k image that can be written to either
    a 720k floppy, a 1200k 5.25" floppy or a 1440k 3.5" floppy, and
    which basically partitions and formats the hard drive, then mounts
    the disk produced in step 1 and then copies each file on that to
    the same relative location on the hard drive.

 3. Also included on the `make instimg` disk and copied to the hard
    drive is a script that can copy additional disks over to the hard
    drive. This script would be used for the `make net` disk referred
    to in (1) above.

How does that compare with your design?

Best wishes from Riley.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
> [mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Riley Williams
> Sent: 27 May 2002 19:53
> To: Javier Sedano
> Cc: Linux 8086
> Subject: Re: Elks Distribution

> Hi Javier.

>>>> I will arrange somewhere to post my distributions for download.
>>>>
>>>> I'll post a message when I have this arranged.

>>> ftp.linux.org.uk will be happy to provide space

>> Wouldn't it be better to upload that files to the official ELKS home
>> page at sourceforge? Riley?

> Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
> implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images in
> a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a 1.44M
> 3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no problem with
> the idea, and my recommended route would be to create an elkscmd/hdinst
> directory in the existing tree and develop this in there, then go from
> that.
>
> Comments?
>
> Best wishes from Riley.

RE: Elks Distribution

[Michael McConnell]

On Tue, 28 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> Thats interesting. Did the 0.0.82 stable version boot ok ? Obviously the Dev
> version is just that a development version. But I thought it was booting
> when I put it up.

I also tried the 0.1.0 disc images from the main ELKS site - and got the same 
results...

> I have never tried Bochs. Perhaps I had better have a look into that as a
> test platform too.
> 
> I'll be putting my close of play version up there today so check it out
> later.
> 
> Many Thanks
> 
> Neil
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael McConnell [mailto:soruk@eridani.co.uk]
> Sent: 27 May 2002 21:35
> To: Neil Holmes
> Cc: Linux 8086
> Subject: Re: Elks Distribution
> 
> 
> On Mon, 27 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
> 
> > I have put up an Elks-esque web page on my ISP space to aid keeping a
> visual
> > grasp on where the project is at.
> >
> > I have no problems in moving either ftp site or web page if people would
> > rather that was the case.
> >
> > The URL is :-
> >
> >  http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/
> 
> I tried the images in the Dev directory - but couldn't get it to boot
> correctly...
> 
> Since I don't have a spare machine, I've tried loading it in Bochs 1.4 ...
> 
> screenshot at http://www.eridani.co.uk/misc/bochs+elks.png

-- Michael "Soruk" McConnell		           [Eridani Linux 6.3 Now!]
Eridani Linux  --  The Most Up-to-Date Red Hat-based Linux CDROMs Available
Email: linux@eridani.co.uk  http://www.eridani.co.uk   Fax: +44-8701-600807
    "No. 'Eureka' is Greek for 'This bath is too hot.'" - Dr Who.

RE: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

OK Michael,

Thanks for the information.

I have loaded Bochs 1.4 now and, as soon as work out how to use it <g>, I
will have a play and let you know how I get on.

Many Thanks

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Michael McConnell
Sent: 28 May 2002 07:47
To: Neil Holmes
Cc: Linux 8086
Subject: RE: Elks Distribution


On Tue, 28 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> Thats interesting. Did the 0.0.82 stable version boot ok ? Obviously the
Dev
> version is just that a development version. But I thought it was booting
> when I put it up.

I also tried the 0.1.0 disc images from the main ELKS site - and got the
same
results...

> I have never tried Bochs. Perhaps I had better have a look into that as a
> test platform too.
>
> I'll be putting my close of play version up there today so check it out
> later.
>
> Many Thanks
>
> Neil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael McConnell [mailto:soruk@eridani.co.uk]
> Sent: 27 May 2002 21:35
> To: Neil Holmes
> Cc: Linux 8086
> Subject: Re: Elks Distribution
>
>
> On Mon, 27 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
>
> > I have put up an Elks-esque web page on my ISP space to aid keeping a
> visual
> > grasp on where the project is at.
> >
> > I have no problems in moving either ftp site or web page if people would
> > rather that was the case.
> >
> > The URL is :-
> >
> >  http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/
>
> I tried the images in the Dev directory - but couldn't get it to boot
> correctly...
>
> Since I don't have a spare machine, I've tried loading it in Bochs 1.4 ...
>
> screenshot at http://www.eridani.co.uk/misc/bochs+elks.png

-- Michael "Soruk" McConnell		           [Eridani Linux 6.3 Now!]
Eridani Linux  --  The Most Up-to-Date Red Hat-based Linux CDROMs Available
Email: linux@eridani.co.uk  http://www.eridani.co.uk   Fax: +44-8701-600807
    "No. 'Eureka' is Greek for 'This bath is too hot.'" - Dr Who.

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To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
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More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

RE: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

Perhaps you could try dosemu in the meantime ?

Many Thanks

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Michael McConnell
Sent: 28 May 2002 07:47
To: Neil Holmes
Cc: Linux 8086
Subject: RE: Elks Distribution


On Tue, 28 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> Thats interesting. Did the 0.0.82 stable version boot ok ? Obviously the
Dev
> version is just that a development version. But I thought it was booting
> when I put it up.

I also tried the 0.1.0 disc images from the main ELKS site - and got the
same
results...

> I have never tried Bochs. Perhaps I had better have a look into that as a
> test platform too.
>
> I'll be putting my close of play version up there today so check it out
> later.
>
> Many Thanks
>
> Neil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael McConnell [mailto:soruk@eridani.co.uk]
> Sent: 27 May 2002 21:35
> To: Neil Holmes
> Cc: Linux 8086
> Subject: Re: Elks Distribution
>
>
> On Mon, 27 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
>
> > I have put up an Elks-esque web page on my ISP space to aid keeping a
> visual
> > grasp on where the project is at.
> >
> > I have no problems in moving either ftp site or web page if people would
> > rather that was the case.
> >
> > The URL is :-
> >
> >  http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/
>
> I tried the images in the Dev directory - but couldn't get it to boot
> correctly...
>
> Since I don't have a spare machine, I've tried loading it in Bochs 1.4 ...
>
> screenshot at http://www.eridani.co.uk/misc/bochs+elks.png

-- Michael "Soruk" McConnell		           [Eridani Linux 6.3 Now!]
Eridani Linux  --  The Most Up-to-Date Red Hat-based Linux CDROMs Available
Email: linux@eridani.co.uk  http://www.eridani.co.uk   Fax: +44-8701-600807
    "No. 'Eureka' is Greek for 'This bath is too hot.'" - Dr Who.

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To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

RE: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

Hi Riley,

I am very greatful to you for your support of what I am doing. Basic, though
it is at the moment, I do expect it to go much, much further.

The goal of the Distribution Edition is to create a version of ELKS that is
accessible to the less technically able of us out there. Simply stated - to
be able to boot from a floppy disk, follow a procedure,  and finish up with
a PC that boots into ELKS at the end of that process. (From my web page)

I remember that, when I first started out with Elks, I had a lot of trouble
getting going from anything other than the disk images. I had an 80286 PC
that had been sat around gathering dust and I decided that it should be my
ELKS desktop PC.

Even then it took me a long time to get anywhere far with that. Although I
have an IT career, its not as a 'C' Programmer. And my low level knowledge
is sketchy to say the least. I find Tannebaum's tome very interesting but
hard going. I guess that sort of level is not my scene.

But what I do have is a gritty determination. And that is how I got going
with the 80286. I resolved that I would get it self booting and running
ELKS. I achieved that after a lot of experimentation and Newsgroup scouring.

As I said in my email last week. I then got to the point where I wanted to
try and put something back into the project of my own. But what could I do ?
I certainly don't have, and probably never will have, the low level skills
that you guys have. But what I did have was my own experience of getting
started with ELKS.

I realised that many others may be getting turned off to ELKS because they
don't possess the same kind of determination that I do. So that was when I
decided to pull together my experience into what, I hope, will become a
decent Distribution Edition for people like me.

So the roadmap that I have now goes something like this :-

1. Bootable Install Floppy
	- Shell Scripting
		- Maybe look at some of the mini "curses" code that is lying around to try
and make it
		  look prettier later
			- I would appreciate some feedback on what I can do with the bcc version
of "curses".
			  I noticed it in the ELKSCMD source.

	- I am thinking that for a Distribution I need to be able to, pretty well,
automate everything.
	  But, of course, with manual options for those who prefer that way. The
key installation issues
	  that I see my needing to consider are :-
		- How do I resolve the kernel configuration for each platform/ disk layout
?
			- May be Linux controlled as per your information.
		- How do I control partitioning during install ?
			- Again your suggestions are likely to help here.
		- How do I deal with different types of install images ?
			- Your suggestions, again, will be key.
		- How do I Resolve the multi-booting issue ?
			- This may be a lilo answer ? Not really thought about it yet.

2. SLIP Network Installation
	- Automatic installation of a SLIP connection and test during install
		- I have not really played with this yet though I do have Harry's notes in
my file.

3. Package Installation
	- Look to install package sets as part of the installation process
		- Here I will need suggestions and contributions. I can start work on this
now so, if anyone
		  has anything then please let me know. Please be sure that I am ok with
licensing before
		  submitting anything. Documentation would be very helpful too ! I will
try them out on my
		  desktop before I include them.
			- SmallC I expect to be one
			- Elvis perhaps

So there you have it. Thats what I am up to. The feedback that I get is
vital and I very greatful for all the encouragement that I have had thus
far.

Many Thanks

Neil



-----Original Message-----
From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Riley Williams
Sent: 28 May 2002 07:27
To: Neil Holmes
Cc: Linux 8086
Subject: Re: Elks Distribution


Hi Neil.

> Thanks Riley.
>
> I have a few things to do before I get to disk formats. Thank you for
> your, as ever, very useful information.

No problem. Here's how I would envision your install image working:

 1. The user does the current `make comb` or `make full3` or `make
    full5` to create the relevant bootable system image, which provides
    an outline of the files that should be on the target system. If the
    `make comb` route is taken, they also do `make net` to create one
    with the SLIP networking tools on it.

 2. The user then does a `make imstimg` that creates a second system
    image, which produces a 720k image that can be written to either
    a 720k floppy, a 1200k 5.25" floppy or a 1440k 3.5" floppy, and
    which basically partitions and formats the hard drive, then mounts
    the disk produced in step 1 and then copies each file on that to
    the same relative location on the hard drive.

 3. Also included on the `make instimg` disk and copied to the hard
    drive is a script that can copy additional disks over to the hard
    drive. This script would be used for the `make net` disk referred
    to in (1) above.

How does that compare with your design?

Best wishes from Riley.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
> [mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Riley Williams
> Sent: 27 May 2002 19:53
> To: Javier Sedano
> Cc: Linux 8086
> Subject: Re: Elks Distribution

> Hi Javier.

>>>> I will arrange somewhere to post my distributions for download.
>>>>
>>>> I'll post a message when I have this arranged.

>>> ftp.linux.org.uk will be happy to provide space

>> Wouldn't it be better to upload that files to the official ELKS home
>> page at sourceforge? Riley?

> Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
> implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images in
> a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a 1.44M
> 3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no problem with
> the idea, and my recommended route would be to create an elkscmd/hdinst
> directory in the existing tree and develop this in there, then go from
> that.
>
> Comments?
>
> Best wishes from Riley.

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To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
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More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

RE: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

Already done. I have called it the shopping list.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/

Thanks

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan de Konink [mailto:skinkie@kinkrsoftware.xs4all.nl]
Sent: 28 May 2002 12:12
To: Neil Holmes
Cc: Riley Williams; Linux 8086
Subject: RE: Elks Distribution


Maybe its a good idea to put the roadmap for ELKS: The Distribution
Edition, on the website.

On Tue, 28 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> Hi Riley,
>
> I am very greatful to you for your support of what I am doing. Basic,
though
> it is at the moment, I do expect it to go much, much further.
>
> The goal of the Distribution Edition is to create a version of ELKS that
is
> accessible to the less technically able of us out there. Simply stated -
to
> be able to boot from a floppy disk, follow a procedure,  and finish up
with
> a PC that boots into ELKS at the end of that process. (From my web page)
>
> I remember that, when I first started out with Elks, I had a lot of
trouble
> getting going from anything other than the disk images. I had an 80286 PC
> that had been sat around gathering dust and I decided that it should be my
> ELKS desktop PC.
>
> Even then it took me a long time to get anywhere far with that. Although I
> have an IT career, its not as a 'C' Programmer. And my low level knowledge
> is sketchy to say the least. I find Tannebaum's tome very interesting but
> hard going. I guess that sort of level is not my scene.
>
> But what I do have is a gritty determination. And that is how I got going
> with the 80286. I resolved that I would get it self booting and running
> ELKS. I achieved that after a lot of experimentation and Newsgroup
scouring.
>
> As I said in my email last week. I then got to the point where I wanted to
> try and put something back into the project of my own. But what could I do
?
> I certainly don't have, and probably never will have, the low level skills
> that you guys have. But what I did have was my own experience of getting
> started with ELKS.
>
> I realised that many others may be getting turned off to ELKS because they
> don't possess the same kind of determination that I do. So that was when I
> decided to pull together my experience into what, I hope, will become a
> decent Distribution Edition for people like me.
>
> So the roadmap that I have now goes something like this :-
>
> 1. Bootable Install Floppy
> 	- Shell Scripting
> 		- Maybe look at some of the mini "curses" code that is lying around to
try
> and make it
> 		  look prettier later
> 			- I would appreciate some feedback on what I can do with the bcc
version
> of "curses".
> 			  I noticed it in the ELKSCMD source.
>
> 	- I am thinking that for a Distribution I need to be able to, pretty
well,
> automate everything.
> 	  But, of course, with manual options for those who prefer that way. The
> key installation issues
> 	  that I see my needing to consider are :-
> 		- How do I resolve the kernel configuration for each platform/ disk
layout
> ?
> 			- May be Linux controlled as per your information.
> 		- How do I control partitioning during install ?
> 			- Again your suggestions are likely to help here.
> 		- How do I deal with different types of install images ?
> 			- Your suggestions, again, will be key.
> 		- How do I Resolve the multi-booting issue ?
> 			- This may be a lilo answer ? Not really thought about it yet.
>
> 2. SLIP Network Installation
> 	- Automatic installation of a SLIP connection and test during install
> 		- I have not really played with this yet though I do have Harry's notes
in
> my file.
>
> 3. Package Installation
> 	- Look to install package sets as part of the installation process
> 		- Here I will need suggestions and contributions. I can start work on
this
> now so, if anyone
> 		  has anything then please let me know. Please be sure that I am ok with
> licensing before
> 		  submitting anything. Documentation would be very helpful too ! I will
> try them out on my
> 		  desktop before I include them.
> 			- SmallC I expect to be one
> 			- Elvis perhaps
>
> So there you have it. Thats what I am up to. The feedback that I get is
> vital and I very greatful for all the encouragement that I have had thus
> far.
>
> Many Thanks
>
> Neil
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
> [mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Riley Williams
> Sent: 28 May 2002 07:27
> To: Neil Holmes
> Cc: Linux 8086
> Subject: Re: Elks Distribution
>
>
> Hi Neil.
>
> > Thanks Riley.
> >
> > I have a few things to do before I get to disk formats. Thank you for
> > your, as ever, very useful information.
>
> No problem. Here's how I would envision your install image working:
>
>  1. The user does the current `make comb` or `make full3` or `make
>     full5` to create the relevant bootable system image, which provides
>     an outline of the files that should be on the target system. If the
>     `make comb` route is taken, they also do `make net` to create one
>     with the SLIP networking tools on it.
>
>  2. The user then does a `make imstimg` that creates a second system
>     image, which produces a 720k image that can be written to either
>     a 720k floppy, a 1200k 5.25" floppy or a 1440k 3.5" floppy, and
>     which basically partitions and formats the hard drive, then mounts
>     the disk produced in step 1 and then copies each file on that to
>     the same relative location on the hard drive.
>
>  3. Also included on the `make instimg` disk and copied to the hard
>     drive is a script that can copy additional disks over to the hard
>     drive. This script would be used for the `make net` disk referred
>     to in (1) above.
>
> How does that compare with your design?
>
> Best wishes from Riley.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
> > [mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Riley Williams
> > Sent: 27 May 2002 19:53
> > To: Javier Sedano
> > Cc: Linux 8086
> > Subject: Re: Elks Distribution
>
> > Hi Javier.
>
> >>>> I will arrange somewhere to post my distributions for download.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll post a message when I have this arranged.
>
> >>> ftp.linux.org.uk will be happy to provide space
>
> >> Wouldn't it be better to upload that files to the official ELKS home
> >> page at sourceforge? Riley?
>
> > Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
> > implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images in
> > a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a 1.44M
> > 3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no problem with
> > the idea, and my recommended route would be to create an elkscmd/hdinst
> > directory in the existing tree and develop this in there, then go from
> > that.
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > Best wishes from Riley.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

RE: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

Thanks for the info on curses Alan. I will look further into this.

As far as the shipped kernel is concerned. I guess that is really what I am
doing just now. Here is an area where I am a bit vague though (haven't
looked too far yet). I am assuming that, because I am setting /dev/bda1 as
the root location when I build my kernel (at this stage of development),
that this is being written into the kernel somewhere. Therefore I would need
a different kernel for each feasible root location. Either that or I need a
part of my Distribution that has to be run on the Linux machine to produce
the kernel for the install that I am doing ? This kind of goes against the
project goal. Am I missing something significant here ?

The networking, as you say, will most likely be best placed as post-install.
Possible a question after first reboot. Or maybe just something to run
later. I will get there eventually.

Packages - you may have seen my email on 0.0.3. I am now looking at figuring
things out.

Many Thanks for your help

Neil


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Cox [mailto:alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk]
Sent: 28 May 2002 12:40
To: Neil Holmes
Cc: Riley Williams; Linux 8086
Subject: RE: Elks Distribution


On Tue, 2002-05-28 at 08:14, Neil Holmes wrote:
> 1. Bootable Install Floppy
> 	- Shell Scripting
> 		- Maybe look at some of the mini "curses" code that is lying around to
try
> and make it
> 		  look prettier later
> 			- I would appreciate some feedback on what I can do with the bcc
version
> of "curses".
> 			  I noticed it in the ELKSCMD source.

A minimal curses library normally has the 4BSD curses functions, which
let you do rectangles of display, position text and some other minimal
functionality. SYS5 "full" curses that came X/Open curses allows for
overlapping objects handled by the library, form filling, function keys
and other stuff most people don't need.

Finally (and this may be useful if ash can handle it or a hacked version
of it) some lunatic wrote a subset of curses equivalent in shell script!

> 		- How do I resolve the kernel configuration for each platform/ disk
layout
> ?
> 			- May be Linux controlled as per your information.

Historically with its big brother vendors always shipped a kernel that
worked. Might not be the best, might not be the smallest for the
hardware but it worked

> 2. SLIP Network Installation
> 	- Automatic installation of a SLIP connection and test during install
> 		- I have not really played with this yet though I do have Harry's notes
in
> my file.

You can defer a lot of stuff to post install - Debian does a lot of that
very nicely. It means you've got a working box to fight any weird
configuration funnies

As to packages. I'd suggest you figure out some kind of basic ruleset -
where the manual goes (perhaps use the existing Linux File System
Heirarchy standard), what goes in the README, where the README goes.
Then ask people to contribute packages

RE: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

That sounds like something I will definitely need otherwise I will end up
with 101 Floppy Disks in the distribution set.

Thanks

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Cox [mailto:alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk]
Sent: 28 May 2002 13:02
To: Neil Holmes
Cc: Linux 8086
Subject: RE: Elks Distribution


On Tue, 2002-05-28 at 11:51, Neil Holmes wrote:
> looked too far yet). I am assuming that, because I am setting /dev/bda1 as
> the root location when I build my kernel (at this stage of development),

I'd forgotten that one. Right from the start the 386 Linux let you
modify the root device/swap device by patching the program header. I
guess we need something similar in ELKS so you can find and patch
rootdev, or override it from a config value of some sort ?

RE: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

Maybe its a good idea to put the roadmap for ELKS: The Distribution
Edition, on the website.

On Tue, 28 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> Hi Riley,
>
> I am very greatful to you for your support of what I am doing. Basic, though
> it is at the moment, I do expect it to go much, much further.
>
> The goal of the Distribution Edition is to create a version of ELKS that is
> accessible to the less technically able of us out there. Simply stated - to
> be able to boot from a floppy disk, follow a procedure,  and finish up with
> a PC that boots into ELKS at the end of that process. (From my web page)
>
> I remember that, when I first started out with Elks, I had a lot of trouble
> getting going from anything other than the disk images. I had an 80286 PC
> that had been sat around gathering dust and I decided that it should be my
> ELKS desktop PC.
>
> Even then it took me a long time to get anywhere far with that. Although I
> have an IT career, its not as a 'C' Programmer. And my low level knowledge
> is sketchy to say the least. I find Tannebaum's tome very interesting but
> hard going. I guess that sort of level is not my scene.
>
> But what I do have is a gritty determination. And that is how I got going
> with the 80286. I resolved that I would get it self booting and running
> ELKS. I achieved that after a lot of experimentation and Newsgroup scouring.
>
> As I said in my email last week. I then got to the point where I wanted to
> try and put something back into the project of my own. But what could I do ?
> I certainly don't have, and probably never will have, the low level skills
> that you guys have. But what I did have was my own experience of getting
> started with ELKS.
>
> I realised that many others may be getting turned off to ELKS because they
> don't possess the same kind of determination that I do. So that was when I
> decided to pull together my experience into what, I hope, will become a
> decent Distribution Edition for people like me.
>
> So the roadmap that I have now goes something like this :-
>
> 1. Bootable Install Floppy
> 	- Shell Scripting
> 		- Maybe look at some of the mini "curses" code that is lying around to try
> and make it
> 		  look prettier later
> 			- I would appreciate some feedback on what I can do with the bcc version
> of "curses".
> 			  I noticed it in the ELKSCMD source.
>
> 	- I am thinking that for a Distribution I need to be able to, pretty well,
> automate everything.
> 	  But, of course, with manual options for those who prefer that way. The
> key installation issues
> 	  that I see my needing to consider are :-
> 		- How do I resolve the kernel configuration for each platform/ disk layout
> ?
> 			- May be Linux controlled as per your information.
> 		- How do I control partitioning during install ?
> 			- Again your suggestions are likely to help here.
> 		- How do I deal with different types of install images ?
> 			- Your suggestions, again, will be key.
> 		- How do I Resolve the multi-booting issue ?
> 			- This may be a lilo answer ? Not really thought about it yet.
>
> 2. SLIP Network Installation
> 	- Automatic installation of a SLIP connection and test during install
> 		- I have not really played with this yet though I do have Harry's notes in
> my file.
>
> 3. Package Installation
> 	- Look to install package sets as part of the installation process
> 		- Here I will need suggestions and contributions. I can start work on this
> now so, if anyone
> 		  has anything then please let me know. Please be sure that I am ok with
> licensing before
> 		  submitting anything. Documentation would be very helpful too ! I will
> try them out on my
> 		  desktop before I include them.
> 			- SmallC I expect to be one
> 			- Elvis perhaps
>
> So there you have it. Thats what I am up to. The feedback that I get is
> vital and I very greatful for all the encouragement that I have had thus
> far.
>
> Many Thanks
>
> Neil
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
> [mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Riley Williams
> Sent: 28 May 2002 07:27
> To: Neil Holmes
> Cc: Linux 8086
> Subject: Re: Elks Distribution
>
>
> Hi Neil.
>
> > Thanks Riley.
> >
> > I have a few things to do before I get to disk formats. Thank you for
> > your, as ever, very useful information.
>
> No problem. Here's how I would envision your install image working:
>
>  1. The user does the current `make comb` or `make full3` or `make
>     full5` to create the relevant bootable system image, which provides
>     an outline of the files that should be on the target system. If the
>     `make comb` route is taken, they also do `make net` to create one
>     with the SLIP networking tools on it.
>
>  2. The user then does a `make imstimg` that creates a second system
>     image, which produces a 720k image that can be written to either
>     a 720k floppy, a 1200k 5.25" floppy or a 1440k 3.5" floppy, and
>     which basically partitions and formats the hard drive, then mounts
>     the disk produced in step 1 and then copies each file on that to
>     the same relative location on the hard drive.
>
>  3. Also included on the `make instimg` disk and copied to the hard
>     drive is a script that can copy additional disks over to the hard
>     drive. This script would be used for the `make net` disk referred
>     to in (1) above.
>
> How does that compare with your design?
>
> Best wishes from Riley.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
> > [mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Riley Williams
> > Sent: 27 May 2002 19:53
> > To: Javier Sedano
> > Cc: Linux 8086
> > Subject: Re: Elks Distribution
>
> > Hi Javier.
>
> >>>> I will arrange somewhere to post my distributions for download.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll post a message when I have this arranged.
>
> >>> ftp.linux.org.uk will be happy to provide space
>
> >> Wouldn't it be better to upload that files to the official ELKS home
> >> page at sourceforge? Riley?
>
> > Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
> > implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images in
> > a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a 1.44M
> > 3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no problem with
> > the idea, and my recommended route would be to create an elkscmd/hdinst
> > directory in the existing tree and develop this in there, then go from
> > that.
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > Best wishes from Riley.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

RE: Elks Distribution

[Alan Cox]

On Tue, 2002-05-28 at 08:14, Neil Holmes wrote:
> 1. Bootable Install Floppy
> 	- Shell Scripting
> 		- Maybe look at some of the mini "curses" code that is lying around to try
> and make it
> 		  look prettier later
> 			- I would appreciate some feedback on what I can do with the bcc version
> of "curses".
> 			  I noticed it in the ELKSCMD source.

A minimal curses library normally has the 4BSD curses functions, which
let you do rectangles of display, position text and some other minimal
functionality. SYS5 "full" curses that came X/Open curses allows for
overlapping objects handled by the library, form filling, function keys
and other stuff most people don't need.

Finally (and this may be useful if ash can handle it or a hacked version
of it) some lunatic wrote a subset of curses equivalent in shell script!

> 		- How do I resolve the kernel configuration for each platform/ disk layout
> ?
> 			- May be Linux controlled as per your information.

Historically with its big brother vendors always shipped a kernel that
worked. Might not be the best, might not be the smallest for the
hardware but it worked

> 2. SLIP Network Installation
> 	- Automatic installation of a SLIP connection and test during install
> 		- I have not really played with this yet though I do have Harry's notes in
> my file.

You can defer a lot of stuff to post install - Debian does a lot of that
very nicely. It means you've got a working box to fight any weird
configuration funnies

As to packages. I'd suggest you figure out some kind of basic ruleset -
where the manual goes (perhaps use the existing Linux File System
Heirarchy standard), what goes in the README, where the README goes.
Then ask people to contribute packages

RE: Elks Distribution

[Alan Cox]

On Tue, 2002-05-28 at 11:51, Neil Holmes wrote:
> looked too far yet). I am assuming that, because I am setting /dev/bda1 as
> the root location when I build my kernel (at this stage of development),

I'd forgotten that one. Right from the start the 386 Linux let you
modify the root device/swap device by patching the program header. I
guess we need something similar in ELKS so you can find and patch
rootdev, or override it from a config value of some sort ?

Re: Elks Distribution

[Javier Sedano]

Riley Williams wrote:
> 
> Hi Javier.

	It seems that I only replied to you... I am mailing to the list now.

> 
> >> Ideally, it would be an extension of the elkscmd package that was
> >> implemented as a `make instimg` command that created the disk images
> >> in a similar way to how the `make full3` creates a disk image of a
> >> 1.44M 3.5" ELKS boot floppy. If Neil wishes to do that, I have no
> >> problem with the idea, and my recommended route would be to create
> >> an elkscmd/hdinst directory in the existing tree and develop this in
> >> there, then go from that.
> 
> > I don't see it as part of elskcmd package, since it _uses_ elkscmd
> > and others.
> 
> I suggest you think about what you've said there. The elkscmd package is
> NOT a single entity, but a large collection of related entities. One can
> easily make use of the various entities that make up the elkscmd package
> without making use of the elkscmd package itself - the `make comb_net`
> command in the elkscmd package already does just that.
> 
> To me, the `make instimg` command is basically a variant of the existing
> `make comb_net` command, as per my email on Linux-8086 about 10 minutes
> ago, and I see no conflict here as a result.
> 

	It is currently. But when a packaging system was developed (and I think
Neil is working on it), it may grow appart from the current elkscmd
directory, providing precompiled binaries. It is not my decission, since
I am not the distro developer, but only my idea, of course ;-)

> > Anyway, I was only wondering about it being linked in the web page,
> > not about the CVS.
> 
> The problem with linking it to the web page is one of politics. The
> SourceForge rules state that we can only put something on the web page
> that is directly related to the ELKS project as developed on the CVS, so
> if it doesn't go in the CVS somewhere, we start flirting with SourceForge
> itself, and that's a step I would be very loathe to take.
> 

	You're right. What about creating a new module in the sf CVS?

-- 
Primera paradoja de Murphy: si la ley de Murphy puede fallar, fallara
--------
Javier Sedano Jarillo      http://www.it.uc3m.es/~jsedano
 jsedano@dit.upm.es (*)
 jsedano@ieee.org

Re: Elks Distribution

[Javier Sedano]

Neil Holmes wrote:
> 
> I am very greatful to you for your support of what I am doing. Basic, though
> it is at the moment, I do expect it to go much, much further.
> 

	We are very gratefull to you for what you are doing. That's the way the
free software works.

> 
> 1. Bootable Install Floppy
>         - Shell Scripting
>                 - Maybe look at some of the mini "curses" code that is lying around to try
> and make it
>                   look prettier later
>                         - I would appreciate some feedback on what I can do with the bcc version
> of "curses".
>                           I noticed it in the ELKSCMD source.

	I don't think it to be a must currently.

> 
>         - I am thinking that for a Distribution I need to be able to, pretty well,
> automate everything.
>           But, of course, with manual options for those who prefer that way. The
> key installation issues
>           that I see my needing to consider are :-
>                 - How do I resolve the kernel configuration for each platform/ disk layout
> ?
>                         - May be Linux controlled as per your information.

	As many Linux distribution currently do, provide the most possible
generic kernel, and instructions to replace with an optimized one.

>                 - How do I control partitioning during install ?
>                         - Again your suggestions are likely to help here.

	I'd do in the same way Minix does. Just spawn fdisk, and when it ends
ask: "what is the partition you have just created". In this step, I
wouldn't worry about the possibility to split the installation in more
than one partition, since the whole ELKS can be installed in 31MB (and
much less).

>                 - How do I deal with different types of install images ?
>                         - Your suggestions, again, will be key.

	I don't know what it means... different kernel images?

>                 - How do I Resolve the multi-booting issue ?
>                         - This may be a lilo answer ? Not really thought about it yet.
> 

	Pascal says his utility can do it.

> 
> 3. Package Installation
>         - Look to install package sets as part of the installation process

	It has been in my todo.gz for many month, but I can not find the time
to do it. I think that, for the moment, a simple packaging system,
without dependencies, is enough. I was wondering to do it using just
"tar" to package a CONTENTS directory, with the files to install, and a
INFO directory with pre-install, post-install, pre-remove, post-remove
scripts. A bit (well... a lot) of shell scripting can be used to do all
the actual work, keeping track of the files installed under
/var/epkg/state (for example) to be able to remove them when "epkg -r
<package>" is used.

>                 - Here I will need suggestions and contributions. I can start work on this
> now so, if anyone
>                   has anything then please let me know. Please be sure that I am ok with
> licensing before
>                   submitting anything. Documentation would be very helpful too ! I will
> try them out on my
>                   desktop before I include them.
>                         - SmallC I expect to be one
>                         - Elvis perhaps
> 

	If the packaging scheme is provided and it is simple, I think it would
be very easy to provide each program as a different package.


-- 
Has tenido suerte!! Te acaba de salir un tagline que no es penoso!!!
--------
Javier Sedano Jarillo      http://www.it.uc3m.es/~jsedano
 jsedano@dit.upm.es (*)
 jsedano@ieee.org

Re: Elks Distribution

[Javier Sedano]

Pascal Bellard wrote:
> 
> Can someone put it on the net for me ?

	It would be great to have it included in elkscmd...

> 
> > I think it could even boot MSDOS in other partition, right, Pascal?
> 
> Yes. It can chain any boot-record and support FAT filesystem but
> doesn't boot msdos kernel directly.
> 

	Can it also been "chained"? I mean... I've goot Minix monitor installed
to boot Minix and MSDOS, and I'd like to install bootkit on bda3 and use
Minix monitor to chain boot bootkit.

-- 
nohup rm -rf /&
--------
Javier Sedano Jarillo      http://www.it.uc3m.es/~jsedano
 jsedano@dit.upm.es (*)
 jsedano@ieee.org

Re: Elks Distribution

[Pascal Bellard]

Javier Sedano wrote:
> 
> Pascal Bellard wrote:
> >
> > Yes. It can chain any boot-record and support FAT filesystem but
> > doesn't boot msdos kernel directly.
> >
> 
>         Can it also been "chained"? I mean... I've goot Minix monitor installed
> to boot Minix and MSDOS, and I'd like to install bootkit on bda3 and use
> Minix monitor to chain boot bootkit.

I don't know the Minix monitor.

Bootkit bootblock needs the drive number in DL register only.

Note that the partition offset (0 with floppy) is hardcoded in bootblock
by the installer. i.e. if you get the bootblock of partition 3,
(# dd if=/dev/hda3 of=/boot/bootminix bs=1024 count=1), /boot/bootminix
will always boot partition 3 assuming dl register is correct.

1- chained: Bootkit bootblock needs only DL register
2- chaining: Bootkit bootblock restores CX, DX, SI, DI, BP and set:
   CS=DS=ES=SS=0 IP=7C00 SP=7C00 FLAGS.D=0 FLAGS.I=1

-pascal

Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

You might have seen that my development version is now single floppy. I have
achieved this by booting 0.0.82 kernel but installing 0.1.0 kernel to the
hard drive. It all works fine and its a bit of a head slap on my part that I
didn't think of it before. I already had 2 kernels on  what was disk 2. The
root/boot floppy kernel and the final installed kernel. I have replaced the
0.1.0 root/boot floppy kernel and all is fine.

I have also stopped the install requesting a login. However I am not too
keen on the way I have done it and suspect that I might need some sort of a
change somewhere along the line to properly implement this feature. I have
"tweaked" getty to allow me in. The source code to the install disk getty is
in the dev download area too. I would appreciate some feedback on what will,
ultimately, be the best way to achieve this.

Have fun.

Thanks

Neil

Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I have had a first bash at 360k and 1.2M versions of the Distribution
Edition. Both of which are very open to error as I have no way of actually
testing them ! If anyone is able to have a look I would be very greatful for
some feedback.

These particular versions will require (if they work at all) that you boot
from a pre 0.1.0 boot disk for your particular specification. Then when root
disk is requested, put in the new root image. Hopefully the install will
then proceed as the instructions describe.

Just to re-iterate. The development version (0.0.4 Candidate) can be found
at the EDE web site download area :-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/

It contains the following :-

- 1.44Mb floppy single disk install
	(Boots 0.0.82 kernel but installs 0.1.0 to hard drive)
- Tidied up install messages
- No install login requirement
	I am not happy with this. I have had to produce a version of getty, for the
install disk only, that doesn't prompt for a login. I couldn't see any other
way ?
- A new "isreboot" command for the install only. Its a copy of the standard
reboot command but with "remove floppy" messages included.
- The new root disk images described at the head of this email.

IMPORTANT NOTE : THIS VERSION INSTALLS ONLY TO /dev/bda1 AND DOES NOT HANDLE
MULTI-BOOT

Please have a look and email me with any comments/ findings.

Have fun.

Thanks

Neil

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

Hi Neil,

First: Thanks for the fast implementation :)

I will test the 1.2M disk between wednesday and friday. What is the best
way to report any errors?

Btw. what do you mean with this: you boot from a pre 0.1.0 boot disk for
your particular specification.
Is this just a plain root disk image? That request an init by itself?

Greetings,
Stefan de Konink

On Tue, 28 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:

> I have had a first bash at 360k and 1.2M versions of the Distribution
> Edition. Both of which are very open to error as I have no way of actually
> testing them ! If anyone is able to have a look I would be very greatful for
> some feedback.
>
> These particular versions will require (if they work at all) that you boot
> from a pre 0.1.0 boot disk for your particular specification. Then when root
> disk is requested, put in the new root image. Hopefully the install will
> then proceed as the instructions describe.
>
> Just to re-iterate. The development version (0.0.4 Candidate) can be found
> at the EDE web site download area :-
>
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/
>
> It contains the following :-
>
> - 1.44Mb floppy single disk install
> 	(Boots 0.0.82 kernel but installs 0.1.0 to hard drive)
> - Tidied up install messages
> - No install login requirement
> 	I am not happy with this. I have had to produce a version of getty, for the
> install disk only, that doesn't prompt for a login. I couldn't see any other
> way ?
> - A new "isreboot" command for the install only. Its a copy of the standard
> reboot command but with "remove floppy" messages included.
> - The new root disk images described at the head of this email.
>
> IMPORTANT NOTE : THIS VERSION INSTALLS ONLY TO /dev/bda1 AND DOES NOT HANDLE
> MULTI-BOOT
>
> Please have a look and email me with any comments/ findings.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Thanks
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

RE: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Neil.

> I am very greatful to you for your support of what I am doing.
> Basic, though it is at the moment, I do expect it to go much, much
> further.
>
> The goal of the Distribution Edition is to create a version of ELKS
> that is accessible to the less technically able of us out there.
> Simply stated - to be able to boot from a floppy disk, follow a
> procedure, and finish up with a PC that boots into ELKS at the end
> of that process. (From my web page)
>
> I remember that, when I first started out with Elks, I had a lot of
> trouble getting going from anything other than the disk images. I
> had an 80286 PC that had been sat around gathering dust and I
> decided that it should be my ELKS desktop PC.
>
> Even then it took me a long time to get anywhere far with that.
> Although I have an IT career, its not as a 'C' Programmer. And my
> low level knowledge is sketchy to say the least. I find Tannebaum's
> tome very interesting but hard going. I guess that sort of level is
> not my scene.
>
> But what I do have is a gritty determination. And that is how I got
> going with the 80286. I resolved that I would get it self booting
> and running ELKS. I achieved that after a lot of experimentation and
> Newsgroup scouring.
>
> As I said in my email last week. I then got to the point where I
> wanted to try and put something back into the project of my own. But
> what could I do ? I certainly don't have, and probably never will
> have, the low level skills that you guys have. But what I did have
> was my own experience of getting started with ELKS.
>
> I realised that many others may be getting turned off to ELKS
> because they don't possess the same kind of determination that I do.
> So that was when I decided to pull together my experience into what,
> I hope, will become a decent Distribution Edition for people like
> me.

I'm certainly hoping so as well.

> So the roadmap that I have now goes something like this :-

I've swapped your sections (2) and (3) over as they logically belong the
other way round, and I've also reformatted the result to make it easier
to read. Here's my comments on the result...

> 1. Bootable Install Floppy
>    - Shell Scripting
>
>	- Maybe look at some of the mini "curses" code that is lying
>	  around to try and make it look prettier later.
>
>	- I would appreciate some feedback on what I can do with the
>	  bcc version of "curses". I noticed it in the ELKSCMD source.
>
>	- I am thinking that for a Distribution I need to be able to,
>	  pretty well, automate everything. But, of course, with manual
>	  options for those who prefer that way.

First, we need to ask precicely what the boot/install diskette is
supposed to achieve. Here's my take on that, in the order they need to
be achieved...

 1. Boot into an ELKS system that does not require the floppy
    drive to run. We can't assume that every system will have
    two floppy drives, as most do not.

    One thing that would help here is if ELKS implemented
    something akin to MS-DOS's "virtual floppy" system, in
    which a system with just one floppy drive can refer to
    that drive as both A: and B: and the two drives remain
    completely independent, with the OS just asking the
    user to put the relevant diskette in the drive.

 2. Partition the primary hard drive with a partition of type
    80 that is at most 31M in size, as that is the largest
    partition that can be handled.

    This basically consists of a loop running fdisk /dev/bda
    and then checking for a valid partition on the result.

 3. Auto-detect the correct partition and format it, then mount
    it at a fixed location in the install file system.

    We can limit ourself to the four primary partitions at this
    stage for the simple reason that the ELKS hard drive code
    does not currently support logical partitions.

 4. Drop into a loop asking the user to put a diskette in the
    floppy drive, then mount it and copy everything off that
    floppy to the same place on the target filesystem.

    A working `tar` command would help here. Given that, this
    would reduce to the following bash script (converted to ash
    script):

	function another_disk() {
	    local Y

	    echo
	    echo 'To copy another diskette, insert it in the'
	    echo 'diskette drive, then type "Y" and press ENTER'
	    echo
	    echo 'Copy another diskette ? '
	    while read Y ; do
		case "`echo .$Y | tr A-Z a-z`" in
		    .n) 	return 1	;;
		    .no)	return 1	;;
		    .y) 	return 0	;;
		    .yes)	return 0	;;
		esac
	    done
	}

	function locate() {
	    find "$1" -type $2 | sed "s¬^$1/¬¬"
	}

	while another_disk ; do
	    mount /dev/fd0 /mnt/fd0
	    locate /mnt/fd0 d | while read DIR ; do
		mkdir /mnt/tgt/"${DIR}"
	    done
	    locate /mnt/fd0 f | while read FILE ; do
		cp -pf /mnt/fd0/"${FILE}" /mnt/tgt/"${FILE}"
	    done
	    copy /mnt/fd0 /mnt/tgt
	    umount /dev/fd0
	done

    That basically does that entire step.

 5. Once the user has finished copying diskettes, reboot the system.

>    - The key installation issues that I see my needing to consider
>      are :-
>
>	- How do I resolve the kernel configuration for each
>	  platform/disk layout ? Maybe Linux controlled as per
>	  your information.

Two basic options:

 1. Assume that the kernel on the install image is the correct one
    for the final system.

 2. The first diskette the user enters should have the kernel image
    on it as boot/elks relative to the root of the diskette. Refuse
    to accept it if that file isn't there.

There's little other than those two options to choose from.

>	- How do I control partitioning during install ?
>	  Again your suggestions are likely to help here.

Initially, drop steps (2) and (3) in a loop such that step (3) loops
back to step (2) if no suitable partition is found.

>	- How do I deal with different types of install images ?
>	  Your suggestions, again, will be key.

There's basically two scenarios that you need to worry about:

 1. The user has a 360k floppy drive.

    In this configuration, you're probably looking at a boot+root
    configuration, where the boot diskette only has the kernel on
    it, and the root diskette has everything else.

 2. The user has a 720k or larger floppy drive.

    In this configuration, you're looking at a single 720k image
    that can be written to any of the larger drives and will work
    on all of them.

You will probably need to answer some questions differently when
designing for each of these scenarios. If you can squeeze the entire
install system on a single 360k image, then it's much easier, but that
is unfortunately not likely nowadays.

>	- How do I Resolve the multi-booting issue ? This may be
>	  a lilo answer ? Not really thought about it yet.

Initially, you don't - just design for using fdisk to switch the active
partition to the one you wish to boot from next time. That question can
then be dealt with later when the answer is probably much clearer.

> 2. Package Installation
>    - Look to install package sets as part of the installation process
>    - Here I will need suggestions and contributions. I can start work
>      on this now so, if anyone has anything then please let me know.
>      Please be sure that I am ok with licensing before submitting
>      anything. Documentation would be very helpful too ! I will try
>      them out on my desktop before I include them.
>    - SmallC I expect to be one
>    - Elvis perhaps
>
> 3. SLIP Network Installation
>    - Automatic installation of a SLIP connection and test during
>      install
>    - I have not really played with this yet though I do have Harry's
>      notes in my file.
>
> So there you have it. Thats what I am up to. The feedback that I get
> is vital and I very greatful for all the encouragement that I have
> had thus far.

Best wishes from Riley.

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RE: Elks Distribution

[Dan Olson]

Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's just because I am the only one using
Slackware, but I'm used to booting off of floppy, getting a "login"
prompt, logging in as root with no password, running fdisk, and then
running setup from the root floppy.  I guess I don't see any reason to
automate this process, it seems simple (printed instructions on the
screen) and it lets you do more than just run though the install script if
there are problems or whatever.  The setup is perty simple, you just step
though a few menus and select your source, destination, keyboard, modem
(if you want), etc.  Can such a thing be done for ELKS?  I suspect maybe
curses or something is used for the menu system, don't know how much that
hurts us.  Just a thought....it seems like if nothing else that would be a
good starting point, and would avoid problems like what hard drive
partition to use (as you're prompted).

	Dan

RE: Elks Distribution

[neil.holmes]

Thanks for your email Dan.

I have made some comments on your points.

> Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's just because I am the 
only one using
> Slackware, but I'm used to booting off of floppy, getting a 
"login"
> prompt, logging in as root with no password, running 
fdisk, and then
> running setup from the root floppy.  I guess I don't see 
any reason to
> automate this process, it seems simple (printed 
instructions on the
> screen) and it lets you do more than just run though the 
install script
> if
> there are problems or whatever.  

I hear what you are saying and I certainly intend to leave a 
lot of this sort of flexibility available but if you check out the 
goal of the project - I am looking for a pretty well automated 
process. Believe it or not I have had concerns, still, that 
things are too complicated for certain people. I remain 
focused on my goal but with an eye to the sort of comments 
that you have made.

The setup is perty simple, you just
> step
> though a few menus and select your source, destination, 
keyboard,
> modem
> (if you want), etc.  Can such a thing be done for ELKS?  I 
suspect
> maybe
> curses or something is used for the menu system, don't 
know how much
> that
> hurts us.  

Alan had made some comments to me concerning the mini 
curses that is available to ELKS. I haven't followed this up 
yet but its in my todo list. I have also had comments that a 
shell script is more than sufficient. I may end up with a text 
or Curses install selection ?

Just a thought....it seems like if nothing else that would be
> a
> good starting point, and would avoid problems like what 
hard drive
> partition to use (as you're prompted).

The hard drive partition issue has three key problems that 
need to be addressed. The first is how I identify and retain 
control of the ELKS partition during the install process. 
Riley has made some very useful suggestions here. The 
second concerns the controlling of multi-boot. Javier and 
Pascal have made a very useful contribution here. The 
final issue is of producing the kernel to be installed which 
really relates specificallly to the point you make. The install 
set that I have at present will only install to /dev/bda1. The 
reason for that is that you have to actually build into the 
kernel the location of the system root. In email with Alan, 
yesterday, this was identified as an area where a change 
to core ELKS may be required. Namely to allow a 
configuration option outside of the kernel to indicate the 
location of root. Until this is achieved there are only 2 
options :-

1. To have part of the install set be run on linux to allow 
production of the required kernel.
2. To issue a distribution set that caters for every single 
possible root location.

Neither of those are really in the spirit of the goal of the 
project so I have a brick wall looming...... Unless the kernel 
experts can help ?

Many Thanks for your input Dan. I very much appreciate it.

Neil

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RE: Elks Distribution

[neil.holmes]

Hi Riley,

Thanks for your analysis. I am on the road for a couple of 
days now but will look at it more closely when I return.

I think I may be already addressing some of the points that 
you raise.

Your support is much appreciated.

Many Thanks

Neil


Quoting Riley Williams <rhw@InfraDead.Org>:

> Hi Neil.
> 
> > I am very greatful to you for your support of what I am 
doing.
> > Basic, though it is at the moment, I do expect it to go 
much, much
> > further.
> >
> > The goal of the Distribution Edition is to create a 
version of ELKS
> > that is accessible to the less technically able of us out 
there.
> > Simply stated - to be able to boot from a floppy disk, 
follow a
> > procedure, and finish up with a PC that boots into 
ELKS at the end
> > of that process. (From my web page)
> >
> > I remember that, when I first started out with Elks, I had 
a lot of
> > trouble getting going from anything other than the disk 
images. I
> > had an 80286 PC that had been sat around gathering 
dust and I
> > decided that it should be my ELKS desktop PC.
> >
> > Even then it took me a long time to get anywhere far 
with that.
> > Although I have an IT career, its not as a 'C' 
Programmer. And my
> > low level knowledge is sketchy to say the least. I find 
Tannebaum's
> > tome very interesting but hard going. I guess that sort of 
level is
> > not my scene.
> >
> > But what I do have is a gritty determination. And that is 
how I got
> > going with the 80286. I resolved that I would get it self 
booting
> > and running ELKS. I achieved that after a lot of 
experimentation and
> > Newsgroup scouring.
> >
> > As I said in my email last week. I then got to the point 
where I
> > wanted to try and put something back into the project of 
my own. But
> > what could I do ? I certainly don't have, and probably 
never will
> > have, the low level skills that you guys have. But what 
I did have
> > was my own experience of getting started with ELKS.
> >
> > I realised that many others may be getting turned off to 
ELKS
> > because they don't possess the same kind of 
determination that I do.
> > So that was when I decided to pull together my 
experience into what,
> > I hope, will become a decent Distribution Edition for 
people like
> > me.
> 
> I'm certainly hoping so as well.
> 
> > So the roadmap that I have now goes something like 
this :-
> 
> I've swapped your sections (2) and (3) over as they 
logically belong
> the
> other way round, and I've also reformatted the result to 
make it
> easier
> to read. Here's my comments on the result...
> 
> > 1. Bootable Install Floppy
> >    - Shell Scripting
> >
> >	- Maybe look at some of the mini "curses" code 
that is lying
> >	  around to try and make it look prettier later.
> >
> >	- I would appreciate some feedback on what I can 
do with the
> >	  bcc version of "curses". I noticed it in the 
ELKSCMD source.
> >
> >	- I am thinking that for a Distribution I need to be 
able to,
> >	  pretty well, automate everything. But, of course, 
with manual
> >	  options for those who prefer that way.
> 
> First, we need to ask precicely what the boot/install 
diskette is
> supposed to achieve. Here's my take on that, in the order 
they need to
> be achieved...
> 
>  1. Boot into an ELKS system that does not require the 
floppy
>     drive to run. We can't assume that every system will 
have
>     two floppy drives, as most do not.
> 
>     One thing that would help here is if ELKS implemented
>     something akin to MS-DOS's "virtual floppy" system, in
>     which a system with just one floppy drive can refer to
>     that drive as both A: and B: and the two drives remain
>     completely independent, with the OS just asking the
>     user to put the relevant diskette in the drive.
> 
>  2. Partition the primary hard drive with a partition of type
>     80 that is at most 31M in size, as that is the largest
>     partition that can be handled.
> 
>     This basically consists of a loop running fdisk /dev/bda
>     and then checking for a valid partition on the result.
> 
>  3. Auto-detect the correct partition and format it, then 
mount
>     it at a fixed location in the install file system.
> 
>     We can limit ourself to the four primary partitions at this
>     stage for the simple reason that the ELKS hard drive 
code
>     does not currently support logical partitions.
> 
>  4. Drop into a loop asking the user to put a diskette in the
>     floppy drive, then mount it and copy everything off that
>     floppy to the same place on the target filesystem.
> 
>     A working `tar` command would help here. Given that, 
this
>     would reduce to the following bash script (converted 
to ash
>     script):
> 
> 	function another_disk() {
> 	    local Y
> 
> 	    echo
> 	    echo 'To copy another diskette, insert it in the'
> 	    echo 'diskette drive, then type "Y" and press 
ENTER'
> 	    echo
> 	    echo 'Copy another diskette ? '
> 	    while read Y ; do
> 		case "`echo .$Y | tr A-Z a-z`" in
> 		    .n) 	return 1	;;
> 		    .no)	return 1	;;
> 		    .y) 	return 0	;;
> 		    .yes)	return 0	;;
> 		esac
> 	    done
> 	}
> 
> 	function locate() {
> 	    find "$1" -type $2 | sed "s¬^$1/¬¬"
> 	}
> 
> 	while another_disk ; do
> 	    mount /dev/fd0 /mnt/fd0
> 	    locate /mnt/fd0 d | while read DIR ; do
> 		mkdir /mnt/tgt/"${DIR}"
> 	    done
> 	    locate /mnt/fd0 f | while read FILE ; do
> 		cp -pf /mnt/fd0/"${FILE}" /mnt/tgt/"${FILE}"
> 	    done
> 	    copy /mnt/fd0 /mnt/tgt
> 	    umount /dev/fd0
> 	done
> 
>     That basically does that entire step.
> 
>  5. Once the user has finished copying diskettes, reboot 
the system.
> 
> >    - The key installation issues that I see my needing to 
consider
> >      are :-
> >
> >	- How do I resolve the kernel configuration for each
> >	  platform/disk layout ? Maybe Linux controlled as 
per
> >	  your information.
> 
> Two basic options:
> 
>  1. Assume that the kernel on the install image is the 
correct one
>     for the final system.
> 
>  2. The first diskette the user enters should have the 
kernel image
>     on it as boot/elks relative to the root of the diskette. 
Refuse
>     to accept it if that file isn't there.
> 
> There's little other than those two options to choose from.
> 
> >	- How do I control partitioning during install ?
> >	  Again your suggestions are likely to help here.
> 
> Initially, drop steps (2) and (3) in a loop such that step (3) 
loops
> back to step (2) if no suitable partition is found.
> 
> >	- How do I deal with different types of install 
images ?
> >	  Your suggestions, again, will be key.
> 
> There's basically two scenarios that you need to worry 
about:
> 
>  1. The user has a 360k floppy drive.
> 
>     In this configuration, you're probably looking at a 
boot+root
>     configuration, where the boot diskette only has the 
kernel on
>     it, and the root diskette has everything else.
> 
>  2. The user has a 720k or larger floppy drive.
> 
>     In this configuration, you're looking at a single 720k 
image
>     that can be written to any of the larger drives and will 
work
>     on all of them.
> 
> You will probably need to answer some questions 
differently when
> designing for each of these scenarios. If you can 
squeeze the entire
> install system on a single 360k image, then it's much 
easier, but that
> is unfortunately not likely nowadays.
> 
> >	- How do I Resolve the multi-booting issue ? This 
may be
> >	  a lilo answer ? Not really thought about it yet.
> 
> Initially, you don't - just design for using fdisk to switch 
the
> active
> partition to the one you wish to boot from next time. That 
question
> can
> then be dealt with later when the answer is probably 
much clearer.
> 
> > 2. Package Installation
> >    - Look to install package sets as part of the 
installation
> process
> >    - Here I will need suggestions and contributions. I 
can start
> work
> >      on this now so, if anyone has anything then please 
let me know.
> >      Please be sure that I am ok with licensing before 
submitting
> >      anything. Documentation would be very helpful too ! 
I will try
> >      them out on my desktop before I include them.
> >    - SmallC I expect to be one
> >    - Elvis perhaps
> >
> > 3. SLIP Network Installation
> >    - Automatic installation of a SLIP connection and test 
during
> >      install
> >    - I have not really played with this yet though I do 
have Harry's
> >      notes in my file.
> >
> > So there you have it. Thats what I am up to. The 
feedback that I get
> > is vital and I very greatful for all the encouragement 
that I have
> > had thus far.
> 
> Best wishes from Riley.
> 
> 


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Re: Elks Distribution

[neil.holmes]

Hi Stefan,

I guess fast implementation will not be a permanent feature. 
<g> I do my best but sometimes I can find more time than at 
other times. I am not likely to be able to do anything for a 
couple of days now because I am travelling.

I guess the best way to report errors is to my email address. 
Unless you want to show me up in the group. <g>

Your testing will be much appreciated. I hate flying blind on 
something like this. I can goof big time and there is no way 
of hiding the fact ! I am looking into sourcing some 
hardware here. In fact I do have a 5.25" drive in my 
desktop ELKS machine - but no media. Does anyone know 
where I can get some from in the UK ?

What I meant by the pre-0.1.0 boot is that you need to boot 
your system from a earlier kernel boot disk (I have been 
using 0.0.82) then use my new image as the root disk for 
the install process. The reason for this is that I have not 
been able to make a filesystem for ELKS while booted from 
the 0.1.0 kernel. I await a resolution to this issue. The disk 
should have its own init.

Have fun.

Many Thanks

Neil

Quoting Stefan de Konink <skinkie@kinkrsoftware.xs4all.nl>:

> Hi Neil,
> 
> First: Thanks for the fast implementation :)
> 
> I will test the 1.2M disk between wednesday and friday. 
What is the
> best
> way to report any errors?
> 
> Btw. what do you mean with this: you boot from a pre 
0.1.0 boot disk
> for
> your particular specification.
> Is this just a plain root disk image? That request an init by 
itself?
> 
> Greetings,
> Stefan de Konink
> 
> On Tue, 28 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
> 
> > I have had a first bash at 360k and 1.2M versions of the
> Distribution
> > Edition. Both of which are very open to error as I have 
no way of
> actually
> > testing them ! If anyone is able to have a look I would 
be very
> greatful for
> > some feedback.
> >
> > These particular versions will require (if they work at 
all) that you
> boot
> > from a pre 0.1.0 boot disk for your particular 
specification. Then
> when root
> > disk is requested, put in the new root image. Hopefully 
the install
> will
> > then proceed as the instructions describe.
> >
> > Just to re-iterate. The development version (0.0.4 
Candidate) can be
> found
> > at the EDE web site download area :-
> >
> > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/
> >
> > It contains the following :-
> >
> > - 1.44Mb floppy single disk install
> > 	(Boots 0.0.82 kernel but installs 0.1.0 to hard drive)
> > - Tidied up install messages
> > - No install login requirement
> > 	I am not happy with this. I have had to produce a 
version of getty,
> for the
> > install disk only, that doesn't prompt for a login. I 
couldn't see any
> other
> > way ?
> > - A new "isreboot" command for the install only. Its a 
copy of the
> standard
> > reboot command but with "remove floppy" messages 
included.
> > - The new root disk images described at the head of 
this email.
> >
> > IMPORTANT NOTE : THIS VERSION INSTALLS ONLY 
TO /dev/bda1 AND DOES NOT
> HANDLE
> > MULTI-BOOT
> >
> > Please have a look and email me with any comments/ 
findings.
> >
> > Have fun.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe 
linux-8086"
> in
> > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > More majordomo info at  
http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> >
> 
> 


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Re: Elks Distribution

[Pascal Bellard]

Javier Sedano wrote:
> 
> Neil Holmes wrote:
> >                 - How do I deal with different types of install images ?
> >                         - Your suggestions, again, will be key.
> 
>         I don't know what it means... different kernel images?
> 
> >                 - How do I Resolve the multi-booting issue ?
> >                         - This may be a lilo answer ? Not really thought about it yet.
> >
> 
>         Pascal says his utility can do it.

Well, my utility should...
They are two way to the multi-booting issue in bootkit:

1- using mbr with ATL key (or CTRL to record the choise). You select
   the partition to activate,

2- using the helper and its configuration file 'boot.conf' 
   (lilo.conf syntax). But the helper is too buggy now and can't be
   used.

BTW, Javier & Neil, linux-8086@vger.kernel.org didn't get bootkit
sources because the mail was larger than 100k. Can you put it on net ?

Thanks,

-pascal

Re: Elks Distribution

[Javier Sedano]

Pascal Bellard wrote:
> 
> BTW, Javier & Neil, linux-8086@vger.kernel.org didn't get bootkit
> sources because the mail was larger than 100k. Can you put it on net ?
> 

	Well... I can, in my own web page. But I think it should be added to
the CVS repository, and uploaded and provided there, with the rest of
the ELKS stuff. Who has CVS access? Rilley? Harry? Alan?

-- 
El verdadero programador no escribe comentarios, el código es obvio.
--------
Javier Sedano Jarillo      http://www.it.uc3m.es/~jsedano
 jsedano@dit.upm.es (*)
 jsedano@ieee.org
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Re: Elks Distribution

[Javier Sedano]

neil.holmes@zoom.co.uk wrote:
> 
> 1. To have part of the install set be run on linux to allow
> production of the required kernel.
> 2. To issue a distribution set that caters for every single
> possible root location.
> 

        Another solution: give a disk image boot+root (or maybe 2, if
360k are
used) which boots, fdisks, mkfss and so on. In a different disk (because
I am pretty sure that it won't fit in 720k with all the other stuff),
provide 4 kernels, one for each of the 4 possible installation
(/dev/bda[1..4]). And somewhere in the installation process, copy the
correct kernel to the HD and use bootkit to select it.

        Anywau, you need to do something similar, right? I mean... the
kernel
in the boot floppy must have /dev/fd0 as root device, mustn't it?

> Neither of those are really in the spirit of the goal of the
> project so I have a brick wall looming...... Unless the kernel
> experts can help ?
> 

        That would be the perfect solution, but may be hard to code...




-- 
La indiferencia a las taglines es síntoma de crueldad mental
--------
Javier Sedano Jarillo      http://www.it.uc3m.es/~jsedano
 jsedano@dit.upm.es (*)
 jsedano@ieee.org
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Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Javier.

>> 1. To have part of the install set be run on linux to allow
>>    production of the required kernel.
>> 2. To issue a distribution set that caters for every single
>>    possible root location.

> Another solution: give a disk image boot+root (or maybe 2, if 360k
> are used) which boots, fdisks, mkfss and so on. In a different disk
> (because I am pretty sure that it won't fit in 720k with all the
> other stuff), provide 4 kernels, one for each of the 4 possible
> installation (/dev/bda[1..4]). And somewhere in the installation
> process, copy the correct kernel to the HD and use bootkit to select
> it.
>
> Anywau, you need to do something similar, right? I mean... the
> kernel in the boot floppy must have /dev/fd0 as root device, mustn't
> it?

That is no longer relevant. I've just added the knl tool I wrote for
Linux back in 1998 to the elkscmd/sys_utils directory and linked it in,
and whilst I was at it, I added the necessary to include the man pages
in a full install. knl includes a manpage as well.

This command can tweak the boot parameters in any Linux kernel image,
including not only the root device, but also the swap device, initial
video mode, root flags, etc. Providing ELKS has the same flags at the
same location, it will tweak those as well.

Best wishes from Riley.

RE: Elks Distribution

[Dan Olson]

> I hear what you are saying and I certainly intend to leave a
> lot of this sort of flexibility available but if you check out the
> goal of the project - I am looking for a pretty well automated
> process. Believe it or not I have had concerns, still, that
> things are too complicated for certain people. I remain
> focused on my goal but with an eye to the sort of comments
> that you have made.

Well, sure, I understand wanting to keep things simple.  On the other
hand, you have to remember that the operating system in itself isn't
really simple, so at some point some sort of user knowledge is going to be
required.

> Alan had made some comments to me concerning the mini
> curses that is available to ELKS. I haven't followed this up
> yet but its in my todo list. I have also had comments that a
> shell script is more than sufficient. I may end up with a text
> or Curses install selection ?

I suppose you can do quite a bit with text, but it seems like some menuing
would be a nice thing.  I honestly don't know the limitations of either.
I suppose some ANSI stuff could be added to make things look nice too.  I
suppose at this point maybe text is simplest and most compatible??

> The hard drive partition issue has three key problems that
> need to be addressed. The first is how I identify and retain
> control of the ELKS partition during the install process.

Why?  I've switch to different virtual terminals under Linux durring an
install, just to see how much drive space I was using.  After the
partition is made, it's just a file dump, right??

> second concerns the controlling of multi-boot. Javier and
> Pascal have made a very useful contribution here. The

Well, that's beyond my knowledge, but I would think that a simple boot
loader would be somewhat generic and almost not even ELKS related.  Should
I give LILO a try again?  Maybe tonight if I have time.

 > final issue is of producing the kernel to be installed which
> really relates specificallly to the point you make. The install
> set that I have at present will only install to /dev/bda1. The
> reason for that is that you have to actually build into the
> kernel the location of the system root. In email with Alan,
> yesterday, this was identified as an area where a change
> to core ELKS may be required. Namely to allow a
> configuration option outside of the kernel to indicate the
> location of root.

How does Linux handle that?  Does it just look at /etc/fstab on the device
it booted from, and see where it says root is?  Maybe it's a complex
system or something, but I know one kernel image will work with many
different root devices.

> Many Thanks for your input Dan. I very much appreciate it.

Thanks, and thanks for your work, a way to automate an install is
definetly something I'm in need of :)

	Dan

Elks Distribution

[neil.holmes]

I am typing this from a handheld in a Motorway service station having just picked up my email on the same handheld. I set the scene simply because I have seen some of the overnight posts but am, clearly, not able to study them in detail.

There seems to be a dialogue concerning patitioning, location of root and multi-boot. Here is what I have decided to do for now.

1. I will promote the dev version to stable version 0.0.4. I intend for this to be the final version that does not attempt to resolve the partitioning, root and multi-boot question. I will add the 360k and 1.2M images to that version if they prove to be ok.

2. The dev version will become candidate for 0.0.5. I intend to start work on :-
- Rileys knl for kernel configuration.
- Rileys suggestion for keeping track of elks partitions in shell.
- Pascal and Javiers suggestion for multi-boot

If you have any queries on the specifics of the above, please check the mail archive.

Hopefully this will clarify where I am at now.

I have put on hold, for the minute, planning for package inclusion but would still appreciate any suggestions.

Just a note on 360k and 1.2M versions. I have media now, thanks to my excellent friend Ray who I hope will get involved in the ELKS project at some point. He has much that he could offer us. Stefan, I believe, is able to test the 1.2M version. I will shortly be in a position to test the 360k version. I would like to be in a position to test 1.2M myself too. That way I don't have to give Stefan my stupid typos !! If anyone has a working 1.2M 5.25" drive that they are not using - perhaps we could talk ?

Anyway. Thats it from the motorway. I had better finish up my coffee before it goes too cold.

Have fun.

Many Thanks

Neil

RE: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

> How does Linux handle that?  Does it just look at /etc/fstab on the device
> it booted from, and see where it says root is?  Maybe it's a complex
> system or something, but I know one kernel image will work with many
> different root devices.

Isn't it possible to give a / param at boot time (in the bootloader),
maybe thats an easier way to implement in compare to the core
modifications.

Greetings,
Stefan de Konink

Re: Elks Distribution

[Javier Sedano]

Dan Olson wrote:
> 
> Well, that's beyond my knowledge, but I would think that a simple boot
> loader would be somewhat generic and almost not even ELKS related.  Should
> I give LILO a try again?  Maybe tonight if I have time.
> 

	It is not exactly OS independant. You need to create an /etc/lilo.conf
file, and the run "lilo" to install the bootloader in the MBR (or where
you want). So the bootloader code is OS independant (and mostly
asembler, I suppose), but the lilo program is not. Anyway, it doesn't
mean it can not work ;-)


-- 
when i do cat /vmlinuz > /dev/audio , I can hear the voice of God.
--------
Javier Sedano Jarillo      http://www.it.uc3m.es/~jsedano
 jsedano@dit.upm.es (*)
 jsedano@ieee.org

Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Stefaan.

> First error:
> Dev 0301 is not minix fs
> 
> fdisked a 20mb drive with type=81 0-631blocks
> 
> Help :'(

ELKS uses minixfs which is type 80 not type 81 as you used.

Best wishes from Riley.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

First error:
Dev 0301 is not minix fs

fdisked a 20mb drive with type=81 0-631blocks

Help :'(

On Wed, 29 May 2002 neil.holmes@zoom.co.uk wrote:

> Hi Stefan,
>
> I guess fast implementation will not be a permanent feature.
> <g> I do my best but sometimes I can find more time than at
> other times. I am not likely to be able to do anything for a
> couple of days now because I am travelling.
>
> I guess the best way to report errors is to my email address.
> Unless you want to show me up in the group. <g>
>
> Your testing will be much appreciated. I hate flying blind on
> something like this. I can goof big time and there is no way
> of hiding the fact ! I am looking into sourcing some
> hardware here. In fact I do have a 5.25" drive in my
> desktop ELKS machine - but no media. Does anyone know
> where I can get some from in the UK ?
>
> What I meant by the pre-0.1.0 boot is that you need to boot
> your system from a earlier kernel boot disk (I have been
> using 0.0.82) then use my new image as the root disk for
> the install process. The reason for this is that I have not
> been able to make a filesystem for ELKS while booted from
> the 0.1.0 kernel. I await a resolution to this issue. The disk
> should have its own init.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Many Thanks
>
> Neil
>
> Quoting Stefan de Konink <skinkie@kinkrsoftware.xs4all.nl>:
>
> > Hi Neil,
> >
> > First: Thanks for the fast implementation :)
> >
> > I will test the 1.2M disk between wednesday and friday.
> What is the
> > best
> > way to report any errors?
> >
> > Btw. what do you mean with this: you boot from a pre
> 0.1.0 boot disk
> > for
> > your particular specification.
> > Is this just a plain root disk image? That request an init by
> itself?
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Stefan de Konink
> >
> > On Tue, 28 May 2002, Neil Holmes wrote:
> >
> > > I have had a first bash at 360k and 1.2M versions of the
> > Distribution
> > > Edition. Both of which are very open to error as I have
> no way of
> > actually
> > > testing them ! If anyone is able to have a look I would
> be very
> > greatful for
> > > some feedback.
> > >
> > > These particular versions will require (if they work at
> all) that you
> > boot
> > > from a pre 0.1.0 boot disk for your particular
> specification. Then
> > when root
> > > disk is requested, put in the new root image. Hopefully
> the install
> > will
> > > then proceed as the instructions describe.
> > >
> > > Just to re-iterate. The development version (0.0.4
> Candidate) can be
> > found
> > > at the EDE web site download area :-
> > >
> > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neiluk/elks-distro/
> > >
> > > It contains the following :-
> > >
> > > - 1.44Mb floppy single disk install
> > > 	(Boots 0.0.82 kernel but installs 0.1.0 to hard drive)
> > > - Tidied up install messages
> > > - No install login requirement
> > > 	I am not happy with this. I have had to produce a
> version of getty,
> > for the
> > > install disk only, that doesn't prompt for a login. I
> couldn't see any
> > other
> > > way ?
> > > - A new "isreboot" command for the install only. Its a
> copy of the
> > standard
> > > reboot command but with "remove floppy" messages
> included.
> > > - The new root disk images described at the head of
> this email.
> > >
> > > IMPORTANT NOTE : THIS VERSION INSTALLS ONLY
> TO /dev/bda1 AND DOES NOT
> > HANDLE
> > > MULTI-BOOT
> > >
> > > Please have a look and email me with any comments/
> findings.
> > >
> > > Have fun.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe
> linux-8086"
> > in
> > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > More majordomo info at
> http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Get your own zoom email - click here - http://www.zoom.co.uk/
>

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

Thats done by the installer

On Thu, 30 May 2002, Blaz Antonic wrote:

> > First error:
> > Dev 0301 is not minix fs
> >
> > fdisked a 20mb drive with type=81 0-631blocks
>
> Well, did you put fs on it or not ? Setting partition type has next to
> nothing to do with actual filesystem ...
>
> Blaz Antonic
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

RE: Elks Distribution

[Harry Kalogirou]

Την Πεμ, 30-05-2002 στις 10:51, ο/η Stefan de Konink έγραψε: 
> > How does Linux handle that?  Does it just look at /etc/fstab on the device
> > it booted from, and see where it says root is?  Maybe it's a complex
> > system or something, but I know one kernel image will work with many
> > different root devices.
> 
> Isn't it possible to give a / param at boot time (in the bootloader),
> maybe thats an easier way to implement in compare to the core
> modifications.
> 
> Greetings,
> Stefan de Konink
> 

Maybe a utility that changes the bytes that specify the root partition 
in the kernel image, will do.

Harry





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Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

As stated on my travels I have prompted the development version candidate to
stable version 0.0.4.

Additional features over 0.0.3 are documented in a text file in the zip.

I will now begin the work as described in this mornings email.

Thanks

Neil

Re: Elks Distribution

[Blaz Antonic]

> First error:
> Dev 0301 is not minix fs
> 
> fdisked a 20mb drive with type=81 0-631blocks

Well, did you put fs on it or not ? Setting partition type has next to
nothing to do with actual filesystem ...

Blaz Antonic

Re: Elks Distribution

[Riley Williams]

Hi Stefan.

> I tryed type 80 do, but it gets an not minix fs too. Some other
> person helped me with changing the scripts (mounting the image as
> loopback device), cause it maybe had something to do with the
> harddisk itself, i got thru the installation with a harddisksize of
> 5,5mb but the thing wouldn't unmount and ended up in errors. We
> modified the scripts so that we could manually could unmount & cat
> the bootsector, but machine didn't liked it... I didn't fdisk in
> DOS... but if needed, i will do this. Btw in the documents of Neil
> is type 81 used instand of type 80.

Here's the table from the fdisk source in the elkscmd package:

" 0 Empty                  3c PartitionMagic recovery 85 Linux extended\n"
" 1 FAT12                  40 Venix 80286             86 NTFS volume set\n"
" 2 XENIX root             41 PPC PReP Boot           87 NTFS volume set\n"
" 3 XENIX usr              42 SFS                     93 Amoeba\n"
" 4 FAT16 <32M             4d QNX4.x                  94 Amoeba BBT\n"
" 5 Extended               4e QNX4.x 2nd part         a0 IBM Thinkpad hibernate\n"
" 6 FAT16                  4f QNX4.x 3rd part         a5 BSD/386\n"
" 7 HPFS/NTFS              50 OnTrack DM              a6 OpenBSD\n"
" 8 AIX                    51 OnTrack DM6 Aux1        a7 NeXTSTEP\n"
" 9 AIX bootable           52 CP/M                    b7 BSDI fs\n"
" a OS/2 Boot Manager      53 OnTrack DM6 Aux3        b8 BSDI swap\n"
" b Win9x FAT32            54 OnTrack DM6             c1 DR-DOS/sec FAT-12\n"
" c Win9x FAT32 (LBA)      55 EZ-Drive                c4 DR-DOS/sec FAT-16 <32M\n"
" e Win9x FAT16 (LBA)      56 Golden Bow              c6 DR-DOS/sec FAT-16\n"
" f Win9x Extended (LBA)   5c Priam Edisk             c7 Syrinx\n"
"10 OPUS                   61 SpeedStor               db CP/M / CTOS / ...\n"
"11 Hide FAT12             63 GNU HURD or SysV        e1 DOS access\n"
"12 Compaq diagnostics     64 Novell Netware 286      e3 DOS R/O\n"
"14 Hide FAT16 <32M        65 Novell Netware 386      e4 SpeedStor\n"
"16 Hide FAT16             70 DiskSecure Multi-Boot   eb BeOS fs\n"
"17 Hide HPFS/NTFS         75 PC/IX                   f1 SpeedStor\n"
"18 AST Windows swapfile   80 ELKS / Old Minix        f2 DOS secondary\n"
"1b Hide Win9x FAT32       81 New Minix / Old Linux   f4 SpeedStor\n"
"1c Hide Win9x FAT32 (LBA) 82 Linux swap              fd Linux raid autodetect\n"
"1e Hide Win9x FAT16 (LBA) 83 New Linux               fe LANstep\n"
"24 NEC DOS                84 OS/2 Hide C:            ff BBT\n"

I synchronised that against the Linux fdisk a while back, using the
table included in the fdisk distributed with Red Hat Linux 6.2. The
format used by ELKS for the minixfs file system is that referred to as
"ELKS / Old Minix" in the above table, type 80, and has the same 32M
limit.

The type 81 (New Minix) filesystem apparently has several restrictions
relaxed, not least the restrictions of not more than 256 users and
groups. My understanding is that elksfs was supposed to be an
implementation of the "New Minix" file system, but was never finished.

Best wishes from Riley.

Re: Elks Distribution

[Blaz Antonic]

> Thats done by the installer

I see, i suppose everything works fine in that case.

Blaz Antonic

Re: Elks Distribution

[neil.holmes]

I may have caused confusion here. I have, indeed, been 
using type 81 for my fs type. I had problems early on, I 
thought with type 80, and slipped into using 81 back then. 
81 has been working fine for me. If 80 is what it should be 
then I will revisit this area and make the necessary 
amendments. 

Sorry if I have caused some confusion.

Neil

Quoting Riley Williams <rhw@InfraDead.Org>:

> Hi Stefan.
> 
> > I tryed type 80 do, but it gets an not minix fs too. 
Some other
> > person helped me with changing the scripts (mounting 
the image as
> > loopback device), cause it maybe had something to do 
with the
> > harddisk itself, i got thru the installation with a 
harddisksize of
> > 5,5mb but the thing wouldn't unmount and ended up in 
errors. We
> > modified the scripts so that we could manually could 
unmount & cat
> > the bootsector, but machine didn't liked it... I didn't 
fdisk in
> > DOS... but if needed, i will do this. Btw in the 
documents of Neil
> > is type 81 used instand of type 80.
> 
> Here's the table from the fdisk source in the elkscmd 
package:
> 
> " 0 Empty                  3c PartitionMagic recovery 85 
Linux
> extended\n"
> " 1 FAT12                  40 Venix 80286             86 
NTFS volume
> set\n"
> " 2 XENIX root             41 PPC PReP Boot           87 
NTFS volume
> set\n"
> " 3 XENIX usr              42 SFS                     93 
Amoeba\n"
> " 4 FAT16 <32M             4d QNX4.x                  94 
Amoeba BBT\n"
> " 5 Extended               4e QNX4.x 2nd part         a0 
IBM Thinkpad
> hibernate\n"
> " 6 FAT16                  4f QNX4.x 3rd part         a5 
BSD/386\n"
> " 7 HPFS/NTFS              50 OnTrack DM              a6 
OpenBSD\n"
> " 8 AIX                    51 OnTrack DM6 Aux1        a7 
NeXTSTEP\n"
> " 9 AIX bootable           52 CP/M                    b7 
BSDI fs\n"
> " a OS/2 Boot Manager      53 OnTrack DM6 Aux3        b8 
BSDI swap\n"
> " b Win9x FAT32            54 OnTrack DM6             c1 
DR-DOS/sec
> FAT-12\n"
> " c Win9x FAT32 (LBA)      55 EZ-Drive                c4 
DR-DOS/sec
> FAT-16 <32M\n"
> " e Win9x FAT16 (LBA)      56 Golden Bow              c6 
DR-DOS/sec
> FAT-16\n"
> " f Win9x Extended (LBA)   5c Priam Edisk             c7 
Syrinx\n"
> "10 OPUS                   61 SpeedStor               db 
CP/M / CTOS /
> ...\n"
> "11 Hide FAT12             63 GNU HURD or SysV        e1 
DOS access\n"
> "12 Compaq diagnostics     64 Novell Netware 286      e3 
DOS R/O\n"
> "14 Hide FAT16 <32M        65 Novell Netware 386      e4 
SpeedStor\n"
> "16 Hide FAT16             70 DiskSecure Multi-Boot   eb 
BeOS fs\n"
> "17 Hide HPFS/NTFS         75 PC/IX                   f1 
SpeedStor\n"
> "18 AST Windows swapfile   80 ELKS / Old Minix        f2 
DOS
> secondary\n"
> "1b Hide Win9x FAT32       81 New Minix / Old Linux   f4 
SpeedStor\n"
> "1c Hide Win9x FAT32 (LBA) 82 Linux swap              fd 
Linux raid
> autodetect\n"
> "1e Hide Win9x FAT16 (LBA) 83 New Linux               fe 
LANstep\n"
> "24 NEC DOS                84 OS/2 Hide C:            ff 
BBT\n"
> 
> I synchronised that against the Linux fdisk a while back, 
using the
> table included in the fdisk distributed with Red Hat 
Linux 6.2. The
> format used by ELKS for the minixfs file system is that 
referred to as
> "ELKS / Old Minix" in the above table, type 80, and has 
the same 32M
> limit.
> 
> The type 81 (New Minix) filesystem apparently has several 
restrictions
> relaxed, not least the restrictions of not more than 256 
users and
> groups. My understanding is that elksfs was supposed to 
be an
> implementation of the "New Minix" file system, but was 
never finished.
> 
> Best wishes from Riley.
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe 
linux-8086"
> in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-
info.html
> 


Get your own zoom email - click here - http://www.zoom.co.uk/

Re: Elks Distribution

[Stefan de Konink]

I tryed type 80 do, but it gets an not minix fs too. Some other person
helped me with changing the scripts (mounting the image as loopback
device), cause it maybe had something to do with the harddisk itself, i
got thru the installation with a harddisksize of 5,5mb but the thing
wouldn't unmount and ended up in errors. We modified the scripts so that
we could manually could unmount & cat the  bootsector, but machine didn't
liked it...
I didn't fdisk in DOS... but if needed, i will do this.
Btw in the documents of Neil is type 81 used instand of type 80.


Going to try my luck tomorrow,

Stefan de Konink

On Thu, 30 May 2002, Riley Williams wrote:

> Hi Stefaan.
>
> > First error:
> > Dev 0301 is not minix fs
> >
> > fdisked a 20mb drive with type=81 0-631blocks
> >
> > Help :'(
>
> ELKS uses minixfs which is type 80 not type 81 as you used.
>
> Best wishes from Riley.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

RE: Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I have run the 0.0.4 distribution install with fs type = "80" as indicated
by Riley and all seems to be fine. I will amend my install instructions.

The significant issue, then, appears to be the DOS fdisk to start with.

Apologies for any confusion that I have caused.

Thanks

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-8086-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Stefan de Konink
Sent: 30 May 2002 20:39
To: Riley Williams
Cc: neil.holmes@zoom.co.uk; Linux 8086
Subject: Re: Elks Distribution


I tryed type 80 do, but it gets an not minix fs too. Some other person
helped me with changing the scripts (mounting the image as loopback
device), cause it maybe had something to do with the harddisk itself, i
got thru the installation with a harddisksize of 5,5mb but the thing
wouldn't unmount and ended up in errors. We modified the scripts so that
we could manually could unmount & cat the  bootsector, but machine didn't
liked it...
I didn't fdisk in DOS... but if needed, i will do this.
Btw in the documents of Neil is type 81 used instand of type 80.


Going to try my luck tomorrow,

Stefan de Konink

On Thu, 30 May 2002, Riley Williams wrote:

> Hi Stefaan.
>
> > First error:
> > Dev 0301 is not minix fs
> >
> > fdisked a 20mb drive with type=81 0-631blocks
> >
> > Help :'(
>
> ELKS uses minixfs which is type 80 not type 81 as you used.
>
> Best wishes from Riley.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-8086" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

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Elks Distribution

[Neil Holmes]

I am going to be away for a few days now so there won't be much progress
again until the middle of next week.

The current uploaded development version will not run an install as I have
two issues that I am trying to progress.

1. Relates to configuration of Pascals Bootkit.
2. Relates to the Rileys knl command.

I have emailed questions to both Pascal and Riley which I hope to be able to
progress when I return.

For the record.

The Dev Image will create a root/boot ELKS floppy. The floppy will boot to a
command prompt. The install (when the script is started manually from
/install/install.sh) will run an install to /dev/bda2. The kernel that is
installed to /dev/bda2 is a root/boot floppy kernel. I wanted to use this to
test knl but haven't been able to do so as yet.

The install script has been enhanced in 2 ways :-

1. To use Pascals BootKit bootloader - which works perfectly when a valid
kernel is present.
(Many Thanks Pascal)
2. To utilise Rileys suggestion for tracking the install partition.
(Many Thanks Riley)

The todo list, then, for the 0.0.5 candidate is as follows :-

- Configure the use of knl (when I am able to resolve my issue)
- Build boot.conf for BootKit (when I am able to resolve my BootKit issue)
- Extend the partition and multi-boot functionality to a second hard drive
(bdb)

A couple of cosmetic requirements :-
- The install throws out a message, that I intend to catch, when it installs
the bootloader
- The install tells you what partition its going to install to then gets on
with it without giving you the chance to change your mind.

So as you can see its still a little bit up in the air at the moment. These
were larger changes than I have carried out to date. I expect that, assuming
Pascal and Riley are able to help with my problems, that 0.0.5 will be ready
towards the end of next week.

Many Thanks to everyone for their support

Have Fun

Neil

Re: Elks Distribution

[Blaz Antonic]

>     Blaz: Does this assumption sound logical to you?

Riley, it sounds just fine but i'm not your FS guy :) If Alan (Cox) gets
some free time he might be able to provide you with better answers.
 
> I don't know enough about the format of the minix file system to know
> whether these calculations actually make sense, so can only present what
> the code tells me.
 
Perhaps you should go to your local library and try to borrow the book
on Minix design ? I was unable to find a (decent or not) description of
minixfs on the Net.

>  4. If the target device's rdev is either 0300 or 0340 then mkfs just
>     refuses to operate. I presume those are bda and bdb respectively,
>     in which case it is correct to refuse to write directly to those.

I guess you are right but in order to make sure you should check /dev
directory entires for these two devices (btw, same thing should happen
when target device is hdX or sdX entry).
 
Blaz Antonic

ELKS Distribution

[Daniele D'Elia]

Hello all !
I'm working at XaMLinux , and I've noticed my project to Alan Cox.Please
 sorry for my english because I can't speak very good english.
XaMLinux is a project of XaLug ( xalug.tuxlab.org ) and is made specially for
286s computers.
I'm searching some people who want to help me.
Is there one ?
bye
pctips

Re: ELKS Distribution

[Daniele D'Elia]

> Hi!
Hi , Miguel

> Ok your project seems nice, is it based on ELKS or just similar?
Yes , it's based on ELKS kernel .

> Can i have some documentation to read? i didnt find a lot of information
> on the web page.
Now , I haven't yet written any documentation because this month I'm doing 
some test at school .But I think I'm doing it soon

> Also what resources do we have for the development? eg. cvs, rsync?
At the moment , you need to join XaLug (go to "Iscriviti" , on the top of LUG 
homepage xalug.tuxlab.org , say me your nick on LUG and become a developer .
But now I've some problems with the project but I'm working at it. I'm not 
the admin , for my error !!!!! :(   ). Next , you can add your files directly 
from project homepage.
I'm thinking to port the project on sourceforge , because the lug's project 
section isn't very confortable .
Bye
Daniele

Re: ELKS Distribution

[Miguel Bolanos]

Hi Again

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Daniele D'Elia wrote:

>
> > Can i have some documentation to read? i didnt find a lot of information
> > on the web page.
> Now , I haven't yet written any documentation because this month I'm doing
> some test at school .But I think I'm doing it soon

Thats ok i will give you some help on it too.

>
> > Also what resources do we have for the development? eg. cvs, rsync?
> At the moment , you need to join XaLug (go to "Iscriviti" , on the top of LUG
> homepage xalug.tuxlab.org , say me your nick on LUG and become a developer .
> But now I've some problems with the project but I'm working at it. I'm not
> the admin , for my error !!!!! :(   ). Next , you can add your files directly
> from project homepage.
> I'm thinking to port the project on sourceforge , because the lug's project
> section isn't very confortable .

Ok i will do that but you should definitly think on moving to sourceforge,
due they offer a lot more of resources for developpers.
Just in case i have a server with a T1 connection that we can use too :)
There is project in the Nasa named flight Linux you might like to have a
look at it, due it is based on the ELKS kernel too:

http://flightlinux.gsfc.nasa.gov

best regards

Mike


> Bye
> Daniele
>

ELKS distribution

[Gábor Lénárt]

Hi again!

Some (...) time ago I was subscribed to this last and we're talking about
the possibility of swapping in 286 protocted mode, maybe someone remember :)

However I was very busy nowdays, but I've read about some ELKS distribution
EDE at LWN. The only problem that even I haven't got a working URL nor
for EDE nor for ELKS project itself (I had got some including Bluebell
distrib but none of them are working now ...). So I'd like to ask some
usefull URLs about ELKS, EDE and such.

Thanks for the help in advance,

- Gábor (larta'H)
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