ax25-apps/-tools: clarification about the project status

ax25-apps/-tools: clarification about the project status

[Thomas Osterried]

Dear OMs and YLs at "linux-hams",

we need to correct some legends seen here on the list these days.

First let's point out that the project is _not_ dead and that we always
respond to e-mail, mostly within 24h. There's active development, and
all changes made are well-documented in the CVS system.


Ralf <dl5rb> and I (Thomas <dl9sau>) are the maintainers of the
linux AX.25 project, aka libax25, ax25-apps and ax25-tools.

As you remember, we took over the project from Craig Small (who was
highly pleased about it), after the project was inactive for many years.

We worked hard during these years to make it a stable and modern
software package.
And indeed, sometimes we felt very alone with that large stuff.


linux-hams is a mixed mailing-list for all kind of ham related linux
applications, kernel problems, beginner questions, etc.

And in the special case of issues with libax25, ax25-apps and
ax25-tools, it's doubtless *one* possible place in the world where
problems and solutions *may* be discussed.

But here's the point where your own responsibility starts: if you find
a bug, if you have problems compiling or configuring, if you need a
new feature, if you have traced a problem down, if you luckily have a
patch, if you like to contribute, then *please* send an e-mail to us,
the maintainers of the software!

We're sure you understand that it's not possible for us to follow and
participate in all discussions in all the known and all the unkonwn
places in cyberspace.
Btw, if more users whould have acted as informer, we'd have visited
that place.


As far as we know, every developer knows who we are, how to contact
us, and where's the place for the software tree.

We really cannot understand,
  - why none of the debaters contacted us, or why no one invited us to
    participate in an arised discussion-thread.
  - why nobody asked the OMs who did and published own changes to contact us,
    for getting them to the upstream version - for the benefit of all.
    Even more, there a packages around which look like be official versions,
    even with incremented version numbers(!). That's not cewl.
    In other cases changes were made to central components (like libax25)
    with the risk of incompatibility for other ham-software that depends on it.
  - that there was an inacceptable discussion about overtaking sourceforge.net.
  - why all that obviously abound power can not be used in a purposive
    way for our common goal.

This is really not the way (and must not be the way) software
development goes.

Although, it's a common misunderstanding in the free software scene.
Despite all the endeavours we read here (which are positive!), it's a
fact that everyone rather does his own thing (maybe together with his
immediate peers) than actively forming the community or joining the
team. This is the point we've to start from.


In order get rid of all uncertainties, we've revised our homepage
at www.linux-ax25.org: http://www.linux-ax25.org/wiki/LinuxAX25


vy 73,
	- Thomas  dl9sau

Re: ax25-apps/-tools: clarification about the project status

[Tomi Manninen]

Hi all,

I haven't had anything AX.25 related running for several years
now, and I don't feel very strongly about the development.
However, I think I need to comment a few things Thomas said.

Thomas Osterried wrote:

> linux-hams is a mixed mailing-list for all kind of ham related linux
> applications, kernel problems, beginner questions, etc.
> 
> And in the special case of issues with libax25, ax25-apps and
> ax25-tools, it's doubtless *one* possible place in the world where
> problems and solutions *may* be discussed.

Right from the start (or at least from very early on) and many many
years after, linux-hams@vger was _the_ place to discuss Linux AX.25.

A separate (invitation only) dev-hams was founded at some point,
mainly to be able to keep people like Alan in the loop. Back
then, linux-hams was a moderately high volume mailing list and
the signal to noise ratio was considerably lower than today.

But still, _this_ was always _the_ list. "Everything" happened here.

 > We're sure you understand that it's not possible for us to follow and
 > participate in all discussions in all the known and all the unkonwn
 > places in cyberspace.
 > Btw, if more users whould have acted as informer, we'd have visited
 > that place.

That is understood. But why you (seemingly) chose to abandon this
list, I don't quite understand. At least nowadays this is a very
low bandwidth list and I think it was pretty much so at the time
Ralf took over.

I don't know where the discussion happens nowadays (if not here).
Apparently quite a few other people don't know it either, judging
by the messages on this list.

If you choose to set up a new place to discuss, that is of course
just fine. But you can not expect people to just follow. And it
might be just me, but _I_ haven't noticed an announcement saying
that this list has ceased to be The Place, and from now on
discussion is at the mailing list xxx *) at yyy...

> But here's the point where your own responsibility starts: if you find
> a bug, if you have problems compiling or configuring, if you need a
> new feature, if you have traced a problem down, if you luckily have a
> patch, if you like to contribute, then *please* send an e-mail to us,
> the maintainers of the software!

Couldn't agree more. And I too have seen this. At least in the
ham radio world, an open source developer is rather lonely.
For example with LinuxNode, I knew there were several spin-offs
out there, but _none_ of the spin-off developers ever contacted me.

But again I have to say, from the point of view of someone that
is not all that interested in the stuff anymore, and _only_
follows this mailing list, you gyus have kept quite a low profile...

> We really cannot understand,

And that is why I wrote this.

I have nothing but the greatest respect of what you are doing.
It is good to see that things are not dead and I just hope
that some of the stuff I have done in the past is helpful
in what you do now.

So please take this email as constructive critisism and a
possible explanation for the things you see. I don't know
why other people have not contacted you, but I must say
that if I were to activate myself and do some development
work for Linux AX.25, _this_ would be the place I would send
patches for review. I might remember to CC Ralf, but not
necessarily. Sorry.

73, Tomi

*) Like I said, I don't feel very strongly about linux ax.25
anymore, but I do feel _very_ strongly about using wikis and
web forums for discussion on open source software. It sucks!
I just hope that isn't happening here...

-- 
Tomi Manninen / OH2BNS / KP20JE01FK

Re: ax25-apps/-tools: clarification about the project status

[Ken Koster]

I had started a reply of my own,  but Tomi has already said much of it, 
probably more eloquently than I would.

Read on for a couple of additional comments.

On Sunday 25 January 2009, Tomi Manninen wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I haven't had anything AX.25 related running for several years
> now, and I don't feel very strongly about the development.
> However, I think I need to comment a few things Thomas said.
> 
> Thomas Osterried wrote:
> 
> > linux-hams is a mixed mailing-list for all kind of ham related linux
> > applications, kernel problems, beginner questions, etc.
> > 
> > And in the special case of issues with libax25, ax25-apps and
> > ax25-tools, it's doubtless *one* possible place in the world where
> > problems and solutions *may* be discussed.
> 
> Right from the start (or at least from very early on) and many many
> years after, linux-hams@vger was _the_ place to discuss Linux AX.25.
> 
> A separate (invitation only) dev-hams was founded at some point,
> mainly to be able to keep people like Alan in the loop. Back
> then, linux-hams was a moderately high volume mailing list and
> the signal to noise ratio was considerably lower than today.
> 
> But still, _this_ was always _the_ list. "Everything" happened here.
> 
>  > We're sure you understand that it's not possible for us to follow and
>  > participate in all discussions in all the known and all the unkonwn
>  > places in cyberspace.
>  > Btw, if more users whould have acted as informer, we'd have visited
>  > that place.
> 
> That is understood. But why you (seemingly) chose to abandon this
> list, I don't quite understand. At least nowadays this is a very
> low bandwidth list and I think it was pretty much so at the time
> Ralf took over.
> 
> I don't know where the discussion happens nowadays (if not here).
> Apparently quite a few other people don't know it either, judging
> by the messages on this list.

Ironically,  if you go to http://www.linux-ax25.org the mailing list link
points you to linux-hams@vger.kernel.org.

Of course the archive it points you to (if you're like me and want to
catch up on what's happing) stops in August of 2007.  Again ironically
enough that months archive starts with a comment from me about
how nice it would be if we had a new official release.

> 
> If you choose to set up a new place to discuss, that is of course
> just fine. But you can not expect people to just follow. And it
> might be just me, but _I_ haven't noticed an announcement saying
> that this list has ceased to be The Place, and from now on
> discussion is at the mailing list xxx *) at yyy...
> 
> > But here's the point where your own responsibility starts: if you find
> > a bug, if you have problems compiling or configuring, if you need a
> > new feature, if you have traced a problem down, if you luckily have a
> > patch, if you like to contribute, then *please* send an e-mail to us,
> > the maintainers of the software!
> 
> Couldn't agree more. And I too have seen this. At least in the
> ham radio world, an open source developer is rather lonely.
> For example with LinuxNode, I knew there were several spin-offs
> out there, but _none_ of the spin-off developers ever contacted me.
>
And here I agree with Tomi,  I'm more than happy to submit bug reports
but my ax.25 use is almost completely limited to aprs and TCP/IP with
UI frames so the issues currently under discussion are not something
I've encountered, til now when someone asked for help.

> But again I have to say, from the point of view of someone that
> is not all that interested in the stuff anymore, and _only_
> follows this mailing list, you gyus have kept quite a low profile...

And this seems to be the real problem.
 
> > We really cannot understand,
> 
> And that is why I wrote this.
> 
> I have nothing but the greatest respect of what you are doing.
> It is good to see that things are not dead and I just hope
> that some of the stuff I have done in the past is helpful
> in what you do now.

And I'll add that I too have great respect for the work you and the
other maintainers have been doing, it's just that none of it seems
to be visible.
 
> So please take this email as constructive critisism and a
> possible explanation for the things you see. I don't know
> why other people have not contacted you, but I must say
> that if I were to activate myself and do some development
> work for Linux AX.25, _this_ would be the place I would send
> patches for review. I might remember to CC Ralf, but not
> necessarily. Sorry.
>
> 73, Tomi
> 
> *) Like I said, I don't feel very strongly about linux ax.25
> anymore, but I do feel _very_ strongly about using wikis and
> web forums for discussion on open source software. It sucks!
> I just hope that isn't happening here...

And to that I'll add 'IRC' channels.

Ken Koster - N7IPB

Re: ax25-apps/-tools: clarification about the project status

[Tomi Manninen]

Hi again,

I have to say it's only now that I really read what's written on the
linux-ax25 wiki page and especially on the "History" page.

And now I'm somewhat less enthusiastic about what is going on with
the stuff..

 From the wiki page, I get the feeling that the maintainers do not
want things to be discussed openly in a centralized place. They want
people to contact them, not discuss openly with other people.

And then they wonder:

'We really wonder why over the years nobody came to the idea to say
"Hey dear maintainers, i'm in an important discussion on the
mailinglist xyz, you're requested to join in".'

Well, you might just want to ponder on that for a while longer.
Perhaps the problem is not in the people that simply do not know
how to play to your tune.

Finally:

'Collaboration work means working together, not against each other.'

Yes, and that should begin from the maintainers doing real
maintainership, gathering people to some common medium and encouraging
people to participate and share. Not requiring "the mountain come
to mohammed", especially when the mountain doesn't seem to know where
mohammed is...

Ken Koster wrote:
>> *) Like I said, I don't feel very strongly about linux ax.25
>> anymore, but I do feel _very_ strongly about using wikis and
>> web forums for discussion on open source software. It sucks!
>> I just hope that isn't happening here...
> 
> And to that I'll add 'IRC' channels.

Well, apparently wconvers is on the supported list according to the
wiki. I don't want to even get started on that one.

I'm really happy I don't care about Linux AX.25 anymore...

-- 
Tomi Manninen / OH2BNS / KP20JE01FK

ax25-apps/-tools: clarification about the project status

[IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR]

To whom it shall concern:

    There are many reasons why it seems the project looks dead to most hams
that might otherwise derive interest in using AX.25 based software within
the Linux environment (I am speaking for how I see it myself, and some hams
I know that are into Linux).

    I read this list, and have a rather busy lifestyle (as many people do),
this ought be the place where issues concerning AX.25 development are to be
discussed. It makes easy and convenient the capability to assert some level
of participation by a greater cross section of interested parties, and will
cause more interest to blossom.

    Moreover, many of us look at the wiki and see there has been no news or
updates in what appears to be well over two years. In the open source world
this says "dead". It may not be the case, but, it is the manner by which an
observer of casual interest might see it.

    Indeed I downloaded recently the "Linux Amateur Radio AX.25 How to", and
it is dated "19 September 2001"!! This says, project dead, and configuration
instructions for an olde kernel. Not even going to waste my time to try this
since its olde and inapplicable to the current kernel.

    Are these proper presumptions? Maybe not, but they put a face on ax.25
that instigates disinterest.

    A popular response in the open source world is "great suggestion! Let us
know when you have gotten work on it and gotten it implemented, here take
the lead on that..." I am sorry, but I do not have the time to implement the
totality of my suggestions, but they are proffered in an effort to define an
accurate review of how some us see the project.

    Here are some things that I think would help invigorate the project and
pronounce a more interesting posture and façade of its status.

    1) Update the wiki, place news, show dates that it was updated, create
the hype that the developers are not leaving their name attached and are in
the mood to take an active interest in the project.

    2) Update documentation, at least give the appearance that is has been
reviewed in light of today's kernels and distributions.

    3) Use the mailing list to solicit help and discuss issues and other
concerns with the community.

    4) Publish some kind of monthly status or update on where the project is
via the mailing list.

    If these things were done you would connect with more people, you would
present the façade of an actively engaged development of this technology. I
even think people might start to get more interested in playing with it.

    Remember, Linux has a lot of code in the kernel that is olde and is not
getting removed for "legacy purposes", and that perception of AX.25 has for
sure to change if it is not true (who knows?).
 

-- 

Very Respectfully,

IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR
Las Vegas, NV / Beverly Hills, CA / Philadelphia, PA / Washington, DC
Amateur Radio Call Sign: N3GWG (Extra) / Marine Radio Operator Permit (MROP)
email: teners@bh90210.net (also carbon copies to my Blackberry)
phone: +(1) 310.358.0202 (Beverly Hills, CA, forwards to mobile phone)
phone: +(1) 215.338.6005 (Philadelphia, PA, voice mail only)
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