[PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[DJ Delorie]

Signed-off-by: DJ Delorie <dj@redhat.com>

---
 man/man5/tunables.conf.5 | 132 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 132 insertions(+)
 create mode 100644 man/man5/tunables.conf.5

diff --git a/man/man5/tunables.conf.5 b/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
new file mode 100644
index 000000000..44b32d40c
--- /dev/null
+++ b/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
@@ -0,0 +1,132 @@
+.TH tunables.conf 5 (date) "Linux man-pages (unreleased)"
+.SH NAME
+tunables.conf \- tunables configuration file
+.SH SYNOPSIS
+.nf
+.B /etc/tunables.conf
+.fi
+.SH DESCRIPTION
+Tunables are a feature in the GNU C Library
+that allows application authors and distribution maintainers
+to alter the runtime library behavior to match their workload.
+For a list of supported tunables,
+please consult the glibc manual
+that corresponds to your installed version of glibc,
+or run the following command:
+.P
+.in +4n
+.EX
+ld.so \-\-list\-tunables
+.EE
+.P
+The file is parsed by
+.BR \%ldconfig (8)
+and the results stored in
+.IR /etc/ld.so.cache .
+The resulting data is read when a new process is created by
+.IR ld.so .
+.P
+Each line in the file
+.I /etc/tunables.conf
+specifies a tunable,
+which is specified with a string of the form
+.IB name = value \f[R].\f[]
+.P
+The syntax allows lines to start with the keyword
+.I include
+followed by a
+.BR \%glob (7)
+pattern.
+Files matching that pattern will be processed
+as if their contents were included at that point.
+.P
+Each line may include zero or more keywords or symbols at the beginning,
+which affect how each tunable affects each processes.
+The keywords must be separated by whitespace,
+but the symbols need not be.
+.TP
+.B overridable
+.TQ
+.B +
+Allow the tunable to be overridden by the
+.B GLIBC_TUNABLES
+environment variable when the process runs
+(this is the default).
+.TP
+.B nonoverridable
+.TQ
+.B \-
+Do not allow the tunable to be overridden by the environment variable.
+.TP
+.B onlysecure
+.TQ
+.B @
+The tunable applies only to
+.B AT_SECURE
+processes,
+such as one started from a set-user-ID program,
+or one with elevated capabilities.
+.TP
+.B nonsecure
+.TQ
+.B $
+The tunable applies only to
+.RB non- AT_SECURE
+processes (this is the default).
+.TP
+.B anysecure
+.TQ
+.B *
+The tunable applies to both
+.B AT_SECURE
+and
+.RB non- AT_SECURE
+processes.
+.P
+The file may also contain
+.IR filters ,
+which limit the tunables following it,
+up to the end of the file
+(or end of the included file,
+or start of a new included file)
+or a line with only
+.B []
+on it.
+The syntax is:
+.P
+.in +4n
+.EX
+.RI [ filter : pattern ]
+.EE
+.in
+.TP
+.B proc
+The
+.B proc
+filter limits the following tunables to processes
+whose name matches the pattern.
+The pattern may be an absolute path
+or just the base name.
+.SH FILES
+.TP
+.I /etc/tunables.conf
+.TP
+.I /etc/ld.so.cache
+cached copy of tunables
+.SH EXAMPLES
+Example configuration file:
+.P
+.in +4n
+.EX
+glibc.malloc.arenas_max=5
+onlysecure glibc.malloc.arenas_max=1
+\-glibc.pthread.rseq=1
+[proc:/bin/bad.program]
+\-glibc.pthread.rseq=0
+[proc:some.program]
+\-glibc.malloc.mmap_threshold=65536
+.EE
+.in
+.SH SEE ALSO
+.BR ld.so (8),
+.BR ldconfig (8)
-- 
2.47.3

Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi DJ,

> Date: 2026-08-03 15:21:31-0400
> From: DJ Delorie <dj@redhat.com>
>
> 
> Signed-off-by: DJ Delorie <dj@redhat.com>

A few minor comments below.

> 
> ---
>  man/man5/tunables.conf.5 | 132 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>  1 file changed, 132 insertions(+)
>  create mode 100644 man/man5/tunables.conf.5
> 
> diff --git a/man/man5/tunables.conf.5 b/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
> new file mode 100644
> index 000000000..44b32d40c
> --- /dev/null
> +++ b/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
> @@ -0,0 +1,132 @@
[...]
> +.P
> +The file may also contain
> +.IR filters ,
> +which limit the tunables following it,
> +up to the end of the file
> +(or end of the included file,
> +or start of a new included file)

I'd append within the parentheses:
	, whichever comes first

> +or a line with only
> +.B []
> +on it.

So, this is like an end-all-filters directive, right?

I wonder something: Does a filter end previous filters, or do they
compound until a [] ends them all?

> +The syntax is:
> +.P
> +.in +4n
> +.EX
> +.RI [ filter : pattern ]

Since '[', ':', and ']' are literal, let's put them in bold.  Thus, BI.


Have a lovely day!
Alex

> +.EE
> +.in
> +.TP
> +.B proc
> +The
> +.B proc
> +filter limits the following tunables to processes
> +whose name matches the pattern.
> +The pattern may be an absolute path
> +or just the base name.
> +.SH FILES
> +.TP
> +.I /etc/tunables.conf
> +.TP
> +.I /etc/ld.so.cache
> +cached copy of tunables
> +.SH EXAMPLES
> +Example configuration file:
> +.P
> +.in +4n
> +.EX
> +glibc.malloc.arenas_max=5
> +onlysecure glibc.malloc.arenas_max=1
> +\-glibc.pthread.rseq=1
> +[proc:/bin/bad.program]
> +\-glibc.pthread.rseq=0
> +[proc:some.program]
> +\-glibc.malloc.mmap_threshold=65536
> +.EE
> +.in
> +.SH SEE ALSO
> +.BR ld.so (8),
> +.BR ldconfig (8)
> -- 
> 2.47.3
> 
> 

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[DJ Delorie]

Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> writes:
> A few minor comments below.

I'll defer a v5 until we finish discussing...

>> +The file may also contain
>> +.IR filters ,
>> +which limit the tunables following it,
>> +up to the end of the file
>> +(or end of the included file,
>> +or start of a new included file)
>
> I'd append within the parentheses:
> 	, whichever comes first

"first"?  Or "next"?

>> +or a line with only
>> +.B []
>> +on it.
>
> So, this is like an end-all-filters directive, right?
>
> I wonder something: Does a filter end previous filters, or do they
> compound until a [] ends them all?

There is only ever one filter active at a time.  It stops being the
active filter when another filter is encountered, or the current file
ends, or an include directive.  An empty filter spec (i.e. "[]") is a "no
filters" filter.  It acts as a "new filter" for the purpose of ending
the previous filter, but does not specify a new filter, so no new filter
is active after that.

If you can get that into five words or less, you win ;-)

>> +The syntax is:
>> +.P
>> +.in +4n
>> +.EX
>> +.RI [ filter : pattern ]
>
> Since '[', ':', and ']' are literal, let's put them in bold.  Thus, BI.

Done.

Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi DJ,

> Date: 2026-08-06 11:33:47-0400
> From: DJ Delorie <dj@redhat.com>
>
> Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> writes:
> > A few minor comments below.
> 
> I'll defer a v5 until we finish discussing...

Good.  :)

> >> +The file may also contain
> >> +.IR filters ,
> >> +which limit the tunables following it,
> >> +up to the end of the file
> >> +(or end of the included file,
> >> +or start of a new included file)
> >
> > I'd append within the parentheses:
> > 	, whichever comes first
> 
> "first"?  Or "next"?
> 
> >> +or a line with only
> >> +.B []
> >> +on it.
> >
> > So, this is like an end-all-filters directive, right?
> >
> > I wonder something: Does a filter end previous filters, or do they
> > compound until a [] ends them all?
> 
> There is only ever one filter active at a time.  It stops being the
> active filter when another filter is encountered, or the current file
> ends, or an include directive.  An empty filter spec (i.e. "[]") is a "no
> filters" filter.  It acts as a "new filter" for the purpose of ending
> the previous filter, but does not specify a new filter, so no new filter
> is active after that.
> 
> If you can get that into five words or less, you win ;-)

Hmmmm, let's see.  I couldn't do it in five words, but how about this
schematic approach?

	The file may also contain
	.IR filters ,
	which limit the tunables following it,
	The effects of a filter are terminated by
	any of the following:
	.IP \[bu] 3
	The end of the file.
	.IP \[bu]
	The end of an included file.
	.IP \[bu]
	An
	.B include
	directive.
	.IP \[bu]
	A new (possibly empty) filter.

> 
> >> +The syntax is:
> >> +.P
> >> +.in +4n
> >> +.EX
> >> +.RI [ filter : pattern ]
> >
> > Since '[', ':', and ']' are literal, let's put them in bold.  Thus, BI.
> 
> Done.

Since a filter can be empty, we should document that.  If we document
that 'filter:pattern' is optional, it'd be [[filter:pattern]] (with the
appropriate formatting differences: the inner '[' wouldn't be bold).
However, that's likely to be confusing, so let's document that
separately:

	A filter can also be empty:
	.BR [] .
	Such a filter has no effects.


Have a lovely day!
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[DJ Delorie]

Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> writes:

> Hmmmm, let's see.  I couldn't do it in five words, but how about this
> schematic approach?
>
> 	The file may also contain
> 	.IR filters ,
> 	which limit the tunables following it,
> 	The effects of a filter are terminated by
> 	any of the following:
> 	.IP \[bu] 3
> 	The end of the file.
> 	.IP \[bu]
> 	The end of an included file.
> 	.IP \[bu]
> 	An
> 	.B include
> 	directive.
> 	.IP \[bu]
> 	A new (possibly empty) filter.

I like it as-is, other than "why are there blank lines" but I don't care
about that ;-)

> Since a filter can be empty, we should document that.  If we document
> that 'filter:pattern' is optional, it'd be [[filter:pattern]] (with the
> appropriate formatting differences: the inner '[' wouldn't be bold).
> However, that's likely to be confusing, so let's document that
> separately:
>
> 	A filter can also be empty:
> 	.BR [] .
> 	Such a filter has no effects.

Done.  I put it after the filter list, so the "also" made sense.

Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi DJ,

> Date: 2026-08-06 16:17:36-0400
> From: DJ Delorie <dj@redhat.com>
>
> Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> writes:
> 
> > Hmmmm, let's see.  I couldn't do it in five words, but how about this
> > schematic approach?
> >
> > 	The file may also contain
> > 	.IR filters ,
> > 	which limit the tunables following it,
> > 	The effects of a filter are terminated by
> > 	any of the following:
> > 	.IP \[bu] 3
> > 	The end of the file.
> > 	.IP \[bu]
> > 	The end of an included file.
> > 	.IP \[bu]
> > 	An
> > 	.B include
> > 	directive.
> > 	.IP \[bu]
> > 	A new (possibly empty) filter.
> 
> I like it as-is, other than "why are there blank lines" but I don't care
> about that ;-)

We can compact them.  ;-)

	The file may also contain
	.IR filters ,
	which limit the tunables following it,
	The effects of a filter are terminated by
	any of the following:
	.PD 0
	.IP \[bu] 3
	The end of the file.
	.IP \[bu]
	The end of an included file.
	.IP \[bu]
	An
	.B include
	directive.
	.IP \[bu]
	A new (possibly empty) filter.
	.PD

(I haven't tested; I've written it in the mail editor directly)

> > Since a filter can be empty, we should document that.  If we document
> > that 'filter:pattern' is optional, it'd be [[filter:pattern]] (with the
> > appropriate formatting differences: the inner '[' wouldn't be bold).
> > However, that's likely to be confusing, so let's document that
> > separately:
> >
> > 	A filter can also be empty:
> > 	.BR [] .
> > 	Such a filter has no effects.
> 
> Done.  I put it after the filter list, so the "also" made sense.

Thanks!


Have a lovely night!
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[DJ Delorie]

Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> writes:
> (I haven't tested; I've written it in the mail editor directly)

The placement of the .PD's is important ;-)

I'll send a v5 with these, you can decide if you like them or not.

Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[G. Branden Robinson]

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At 2026-08-06T16:42:35-0400, DJ Delorie wrote:
> Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> writes:
> > (I haven't tested; I've written it in the mail editor directly)
> 
> The placement of the .PD's is important ;-)
> 
> I'll send a v5 with these, you can decide if you like them or not.

Managing `PD` placement to achieve "compact lists" is indeed tedious.

If you like, you guys can pilot groff 1.25.0's new `LS` and `LE` macros
for man(7).  I expect to release 1.25.0 in the next week and a half.

Unlike the `MR` macro introduction/reform, `LS` and `LE` can be adopted
early and without any negative consequence except a GNU troff(1) warning
in category `mac`, which is not enabled by default, but which some
people enable for linting purposes.

If even that is unacceptable, you can add the following anywhere after
the `TH` macro call and before your use of `LS`.

.\" Avoid `mac` warnings from groff < 1.25.
.as LS \" empty
.as LE \" empty

Use the `as` request instead of `ds`, lest you clobber groff 1.25's
macro definitions.

So how do `LS` and `LE` help?  Here's groff's "NEWS" file:

*  The an (man) package offers new macros to ease the formatting of
   lists.  Enclose paragraphing macros between `LS` and `LE` to identify
   them as list items.  Doing so can mark them as "compact", ease
   management of their indentation, and supply hints to the output
   driver to improve their rendering (as with HTML).  Lists can be
   nested.  (Sub)sectioning macro calls, and the end of the document,
   close all open lists.  See groff_man(7) for details, and
   groff_man_style(7) for an example.  Thanks to Alex Colomar, Chet
   Ramey, Pádraig Brady, and Stephen Gildea for consultation and
   encouragement, and to Alex for selecting these macros' names.

   Because these macros format no text, documents employing them risk no
   damage to their content if the formatter does not support them.  A
   man(7) document author can choose either to transition to these
   macros, to manage list "compactness" and item indentation with
   existing man(7) package facilities, or to employ both approaches.

...and here's groff_man(7).

   List enclosure macros
...
     .LS type [compactness [indentation]]
            (since groff 1.25) Start (or open) a list.  type is one of
            “definition”, “enumerated”, or “itemized”.  compactness is a
            Boolean value directing suppression of inter‐paragraph
            spacing between list items.  indentation specifies an
            indentation amount for the body of each list item; it is
            then unnecessary to specify this argument to the list item
            macros.  Use IP with a mark argument to represent an
            itemized or enumerated list item, and TP for a definition
            list item.  Use IP without arguments to associate successive
            paragraphs with an existing list item; to these, inter‐
            paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.

     .LE    (since groff 1.25) End (or close) the most recent open list.

For groff 1.26, I hope to use the "type" property to select appropriate
HTML elements to bracket paragraphs within list enclosures.

See:

https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?68335
https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?68424

Regards,
Branden

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Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[DJ Delorie]

The problem I had with .PD placement was not the compactness of the list
itself, but the inter-line spacing between the list and
previous/following paragraphs.  You just have to know to put the .PDs
before the paragraphs that come after the space you want to affect:

.P
normal paragraph
.P
* list item
.PD 0
.P
* list item
.P
* list item
.P
* list item
.PD
.P
normal paragraph

My HTML background had me put the first .PD before the first list item,
which bunched the list up against the previous paragraph.

Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[G. Branden Robinson]

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At 2026-08-06T23:29:43-0400, DJ Delorie wrote:
> The problem I had with .PD placement was not the compactness of the
> list itself, but the inter-line spacing between the list and
> previous/following paragraphs.  You just have to know to put the .PDs
> before the paragraphs that come after the space you want to affect:

Right.  But having to know that is one of those fiddly details that
deters people from using man(7), no?

https://lore.kernel.org/linux-man/xnse5q90jp.fsf@greed.delorie.com/

> .P
> normal paragraph
> .P
> * list item
> .PD 0
> .P
> * list item
> .P
> * list item
> .P
> * list item
> .PD
> .P
> normal paragraph
> 
> My HTML background had me put the first .PD before the first list
> item, which bunched the list up against the previous paragraph.

Control of this sort of detail of formatting is, I submit, more
straightforward with the new `LS`/`LE` macros forthcoming in groff 1.25.
If you want a (compact) list bunched up against the preceding paragraph,
don't put a `P`[1] between the paragraph text and the list.  If you
don't want it bunched, _do_ put a `P` there.

Here's an illustration of your example above using each method.

$ cat ATTIC/dj-delorie-demo-PD.man
.TH foo 1 2026-08-06 "groff test suite"
.SH Name
foo \- frobnicate a bar
.SH Description
Baz qux.
.P
normal paragraph
.P
* list item 1
.PD 0
.P
* list item 2
.P
* list item 3
.P
* list item 4
.PD
.P
normal paragraph
$ cat ATTIC/dj-delorie-demo-LS-LE.man
.TH foo 1 2026-08-06 "groff test suite"
.SH Name
foo \- frobnicate a bar
.SH Description
Baz qux.
.P
normal paragraph
.P
.LS itemized 1 2n
.IP *
list item 1
.IP *
list item 2
.IP *
list item 3
.IP *
list item 4
.LE
.P
normal paragraph

These render the same.  Here, I'll prove it:

$ nroff -man ATTIC/dj-delorie-demo-PD.man >| dj-PD.txt
$ nroff -man ATTIC/dj-delorie-demo-LS-LE.man >| dj-LS-LE.txt
$ cksum dj-*
3663585518 394 dj-LS-LE.txt
3663585518 394 dj-PD.txt

Since groff 1.25.0 isn't released yet, let me add full disclosure.

$ nroff --version | head -n 1
GNU nroff (groff) version 1.25.0.rc2.16-0e05a

The result?

$ cat dj-LS-LE.txt
foo(1)                       General Commands Manual                      foo(1)

Name
     foo - frobnicate a bar

Description
     Baz qux.

     normal paragraph

     * list item 1
     * list item 2
     * list item 3
     * list item 4

     normal paragraph

groff test suite                   2026‐08‐06                             foo(1)

Regards,
Branden

[1] or its synonyms `PP` or `LP`

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Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[DJ Delorie]

"G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> writes:
> Right.  But having to know that is one of those fiddly details that
> deters people from using man(7), no?

Sure.  I vastly prefer semantic syntax like <ul> in HTML to the
presentation syntax in roff.  My complaint was just that I didn't know
how .PD worked and had to figure out where to put them, because
placement mattered and didn't do what I initially expected.

Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config

[G. Branden Robinson]

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At 2026-08-07T00:01:44-0400, DJ Delorie wrote:
> "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> writes:
> > Right.  But having to know that is one of those fiddly details that
> > deters people from using man(7), no?
> 
> Sure.  I vastly prefer semantic syntax like <ul> in HTML to the
> presentation syntax in roff.  My complaint was just that I didn't know
> how .PD worked and had to figure out where to put them, because
> placement mattered and didn't do what I initially expected.

Yes; I believe that's a fair criticism of `PD`, and is one reason I
think the new `LS`/`LE` macros can be helpful to man(7) page authors.

Regards,
Branden

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Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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[CC -= DJ]

Hi Branden,

> Date: 2026-08-06 21:12:56-0500
> From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
>
> At 2026-08-06T16:42:35-0400, DJ Delorie wrote:
> > Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> writes:
> > > (I haven't tested; I've written it in the mail editor directly)
> > 
> > The placement of the .PD's is important ;-)
> > 
> > I'll send a v5 with these, you can decide if you like them or not.
> 
> Managing `PD` placement to achieve "compact lists" is indeed tedious.
> 
> If you like, you guys can pilot groff 1.25.0's new `LS` and `LE` macros
> for man(7).  I expect to release 1.25.0 in the next week and a half.

Oops, I forgot about this before pushing.  I can still patch the page
to do that.  I was planning to release tomorrow, so it'd be interesting
to have one page with that.

BTW, I haven't heard of Mr. Sed for some long time.  It'd be nice to
meet him again.  ;-)

I've tried building groff from git HEAD now, and have some issues.
Bootstrap succeeds, configure succeeds, and then make(1) eventually
fails:

	$ make 
	  GEN      doc/groff.html
	Cannot find a locale compatible with document strings translations
	doc/groff.texi:12253: warning: @image file `line-layout' (for HTML) not found, using `line-layout.png'
	doc/groff.texi:26767: warning: @image file `gnu' (for HTML) not found, using `gnu.png'
	cp: cannot stat './doc/gnu.png': No such file or directory
	cp: cannot stat './doc/line-layout.png': No such file or directory
	make: *** [Makefile:20047: doc/groff.html] Error 1

Do you know what's wrong?


Have a lovley day!
Alex

> 
> Unlike the `MR` macro introduction/reform, `LS` and `LE` can be adopted
> early and without any negative consequence except a GNU troff(1) warning
> in category `mac`, which is not enabled by default, but which some
> people enable for linting purposes.
> 
> If even that is unacceptable, you can add the following anywhere after
> the `TH` macro call and before your use of `LS`.
> 
> .\" Avoid `mac` warnings from groff < 1.25.
> .as LS \" empty
> .as LE \" empty
> 
> Use the `as` request instead of `ds`, lest you clobber groff 1.25's
> macro definitions.
> 
> So how do `LS` and `LE` help?  Here's groff's "NEWS" file:
> 
> *  The an (man) package offers new macros to ease the formatting of
>    lists.  Enclose paragraphing macros between `LS` and `LE` to identify
>    them as list items.  Doing so can mark them as "compact", ease
>    management of their indentation, and supply hints to the output
>    driver to improve their rendering (as with HTML).  Lists can be
>    nested.  (Sub)sectioning macro calls, and the end of the document,
>    close all open lists.  See groff_man(7) for details, and
>    groff_man_style(7) for an example.  Thanks to Alex Colomar, Chet
>    Ramey, Pádraig Brady, and Stephen Gildea for consultation and
>    encouragement, and to Alex for selecting these macros' names.
> 
>    Because these macros format no text, documents employing them risk no
>    damage to their content if the formatter does not support them.  A
>    man(7) document author can choose either to transition to these
>    macros, to manage list "compactness" and item indentation with
>    existing man(7) package facilities, or to employ both approaches.
> 
> ...and here's groff_man(7).
> 
>    List enclosure macros
> ...
>      .LS type [compactness [indentation]]
>             (since groff 1.25) Start (or open) a list.  type is one of
>             “definition”, “enumerated”, or “itemized”.  compactness is a
>             Boolean value directing suppression of inter‐paragraph
>             spacing between list items.  indentation specifies an
>             indentation amount for the body of each list item; it is
>             then unnecessary to specify this argument to the list item
>             macros.  Use IP with a mark argument to represent an
>             itemized or enumerated list item, and TP for a definition
>             list item.  Use IP without arguments to associate successive
>             paragraphs with an existing list item; to these, inter‐
>             paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.
> 
>      .LE    (since groff 1.25) End (or close) the most recent open list.
> 
> For groff 1.26, I hope to use the "type" property to select appropriate
> HTML elements to bracket paragraphs within list enclosures.
> 
> See:
> 
> https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?68335
> https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?68424
> 
> Regards,
> Branden



-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[G. Branden Robinson]

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Hi Alex,

At 2026-08-23T14:29:54+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
> > At 2026-08-06T16:42:35-0400, DJ Delorie wrote:
> > > Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> writes:
> > > > (I haven't tested; I've written it in the mail editor directly)
> > > 
> > > The placement of the .PD's is important ;-)
> > > 
> > > I'll send a v5 with these, you can decide if you like them or not.
> > 
> > Managing `PD` placement to achieve "compact lists" is indeed tedious.
> > 
> > If you like, you guys can pilot groff 1.25.0's new `LS` and `LE`
> > macros for man(7).  I expect to release 1.25.0 in the next week and
> > a half.
> 
> Oops, I forgot about this before pushing.  I can still patch the page
> to do that.  I was planning to release tomorrow, so it'd be
> interesting to have one page with that.

Yes, definitely--I'm excited to see it "in the wild" outside of groff's
own pages!

> BTW, I haven't heard of Mr. Sed for some long time.  It'd be nice to
> meet him again.  ;-)

I'll knock on his coffin and feed him some synthetic blood to rouse him
once I've released groff 1.25 final.

> I've tried building groff from git HEAD now, and have some issues.
> Bootstrap succeeds, configure succeeds, and then make(1) eventually
> fails:
> 
> 	$ make 
> 	  GEN      doc/groff.html
> 	Cannot find a locale compatible with document strings translations
> 	doc/groff.texi:12253: warning: @image file `line-layout' (for HTML) not found, using `line-layout.png'
> 	doc/groff.texi:26767: warning: @image file `gnu' (for HTML) not found, using `gnu.png'
> 	cp: cannot stat './doc/gnu.png': No such file or directory
> 	cp: cannot stat './doc/line-layout.png': No such file or directory
> 	make: *** [Makefile:20047: doc/groff.html] Error 1
> 
> Do you know what's wrong?

More or less. It turns out to be damned hard to balance the requirements
of (1) Automake maintainer mode; (2) building from Git repository
checkouts; and (3) building from distribution archives.  Bruno Haible
has been helpful in finding scenarios that don't work.

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-08/msg00039.html

In the meantime, building from the most recent release candidate archive
_should_ work.

https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz
https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz.sig

...at any rate, it just did for me.

2026-08-23 08:22:22-0500 mkdir /tmp/rando
2026-08-23 08:22:24-0500 cd /tmp/rando
2026-08-23 08:22:28-0500 wget 'https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz'
2026-08-23 08:22:33-0500 wget 'https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz.sig'
2026-08-23 08:23:29-0500 gpg --verify groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz{.sig,}
2026-08-23 08:23:36-0500 tar xf groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz
2026-08-23 08:23:38-0500 cd groff-1.25.0.rc2/
2026-08-23 08:23:55-0500 ./configure --prefix=$HOME && make -j

Build finished successfully for me in about 60 seconds.

Regards,
Branden

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Branden,

> Date: 2026-08-23 08:27:49-0500
> From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
>
[...]
> 
> > I've tried building groff from git HEAD now, and have some issues.
> > Bootstrap succeeds, configure succeeds, and then make(1) eventually
> > fails:
> > 
> > 	$ make 
> > 	  GEN      doc/groff.html
> > 	Cannot find a locale compatible with document strings translations
> > 	doc/groff.texi:12253: warning: @image file `line-layout' (for HTML) not found, using `line-layout.png'
> > 	doc/groff.texi:26767: warning: @image file `gnu' (for HTML) not found, using `gnu.png'
> > 	cp: cannot stat './doc/gnu.png': No such file or directory
> > 	cp: cannot stat './doc/line-layout.png': No such file or directory
> > 	make: *** [Makefile:20047: doc/groff.html] Error 1
> > 
> > Do you know what's wrong?
> 
> More or less. It turns out to be damned hard to balance the requirements
> of (1) Automake maintainer mode; (2) building from Git repository
> checkouts; and (3) building from distribution archives.  Bruno Haible
> has been helpful in finding scenarios that don't work.
> 
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-08/msg00039.html

Hmmmm, now it rings a bell.  bootstrap said something about configure
with maintainer mode, but I ignored that, since I had never used
maintainer mode.

After building with maintainer mode, it works a little bit better.
At least I could install the binaries.  I still see some errors, but
I hope they're unimportant.

	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ git log --pretty=reference -1
	144585c33ae8 (roff(7): Fix content and style nits., 2026-08-09)
	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ set -o pipefail;
	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ ./bootstrap |& tail -n1; echo $?
	./bootstrap: done.  Now you can run './configure --enable-maintainer-mode'.
	0
	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ ./configure --enable-maintainer-mode --prefix=/opt/local/gnu/groff/test/ |& tail; echo $?
	  a --with-appdefdir option).

	  If the gxditview app-defaults are installed in a directory that is not
	  one of the default X11 directories for this purpose (common defaults
	  are /usr/lib/X11/app-defaults, /usr/share/X11/app-defaults, and
	  /etc/X11/app-defaults), you will have to set the environment variable
	  XFILESEARCHPATH to this path.  More details can be found in the X(7)
	  manual page, or in the document "X Toolkit Intrinsics - C Language
	  Interface manual".
	       
	0
	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ make |& tail -n1; echo $?
	make[1]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
	0
	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ sudo make install |& tail; echo $?
	install: cannot stat 'doc/img/webpage*': No such file or directory
	make[4]: *** [Makefile:19998: install_doc_examples] Error 1
	make[4]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
	make[3]: *** [Makefile:16833: install-data-am] Error 2
	make[3]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
	make[2]: *** [Makefile:16426: install-am] Error 2
	make[2]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
	make[1]: *** [Makefile:13346: install-recursive] Error 1
	make[1]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
	make: *** [Makefile:16419: install] Error 2
	2

> In the meantime, building from the most recent release candidate archive
> _should_ work.
> 
> https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz
> https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz.sig
> 
> ...at any rate, it just did for me.
> 
> 2026-08-23 08:22:22-0500 mkdir /tmp/rando
> 2026-08-23 08:22:24-0500 cd /tmp/rando
> 2026-08-23 08:22:28-0500 wget 'https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz'
> 2026-08-23 08:22:33-0500 wget 'https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz.sig'
> 2026-08-23 08:23:29-0500 gpg --verify groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz{.sig,}
> 2026-08-23 08:23:36-0500 tar xf groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz
> 2026-08-23 08:23:38-0500 cd groff-1.25.0.rc2/
> 2026-08-23 08:23:55-0500 ./configure --prefix=$HOME && make -j

> Build finished successfully for me in about 60 seconds.

Out of curiosity, where did you get those timestamps from?  Does your
history file store them?

Using groff from git HEAD, I see the list as this:

	$ cat ls.man 
	.TH a s d f
	.SH test
	foo
	.LS
	.IP \[bu] 3
	bar
	.IP \[bu]
	baz
	.LS
	.P
	qwe
	$ /opt/local/gnu/groff/20260823_master/bin/groff -man -Tutf8 ./ls.man 
	a(s)                                                                        a(s)

	test
	     foo

	     •  bar

	     •  baz

	     qwe

	f                                       d                                   a(s)

Is this intended?  I thought it would imply PD 0.


Cheers,
Alex

> 
> Regards,
> Branden



-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[G. Branden Robinson]

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Hi Alex,

At 2026-08-23T15:55:29+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
> > > Do you know what's wrong?
> > 
> > More or less. It turns out to be damned hard to balance the
> > requirements of (1) Automake maintainer mode; (2) building from Git
> > repository checkouts; and (3) building from distribution archives.
> > Bruno Haible has been helpful in finding scenarios that don't work.
> > 
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-08/msg00039.html
> 
> Hmmmm, now it rings a bell.  bootstrap said something about configure
> with maintainer mode, but I ignored that, since I had never used
> maintainer mode.

Right.  I introduced that very recently during the RCs for 1.25.0,
because it seemed necessary.  But as shown, Bruno has proposed patches
ripping it back out.

I'm pretty frustrated with Automake's lack of explicit support for
building from Git working copies.  Or maybe it's brilliantly documented
somewhere I haven't seen yet...

> After building with maintainer mode, it works a little bit better.
> At least I could install the binaries.  I still see some errors, but
> I hope they're unimportant.
> 
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ git log --pretty=reference -1
> 	144585c33ae8 (roff(7): Fix content and style nits., 2026-08-09)
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ set -o pipefail;
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ ./bootstrap |& tail -n1; echo $?
> 	./bootstrap: done.  Now you can run './configure --enable-maintainer-mode'.
> 	0
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ ./configure --enable-maintainer-mode --prefix=/opt/local/gnu/groff/test/ |& tail; echo $?
> 	  a --with-appdefdir option).
> 
> 	  If the gxditview app-defaults are installed in a directory that is not
> 	  one of the default X11 directories for this purpose (common defaults
> 	  are /usr/lib/X11/app-defaults, /usr/share/X11/app-defaults, and
> 	  /etc/X11/app-defaults), you will have to set the environment variable
> 	  XFILESEARCHPATH to this path.  More details can be found in the X(7)
> 	  manual page, or in the document "X Toolkit Intrinsics - C Language
> 	  Interface manual".
> 	       
> 	0

That's harmless.  I got the same thing.  As the note implies, this is
only a potential issue if you want to use gxditview from that build.

gxditview changes so slowly that there's little advantage in that.  Some
updates to it are on my long to-do list, but not high priority because
few people ever seem to use the program.

> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ make |& tail -n1; echo $?
> 	make[1]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
> 	0
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/groff/master$ sudo make install |& tail; echo $?
> 	install: cannot stat 'doc/img/webpage*': No such file or directory
> 	make[4]: *** [Makefile:19998: install_doc_examples] Error 1
> 	make[4]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
> 	make[3]: *** [Makefile:16833: install-data-am] Error 2
> 	make[3]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
> 	make[2]: *** [Makefile:16426: install-am] Error 2
> 	make[2]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
> 	make[1]: *** [Makefile:13346: install-recursive] Error 1
> 	make[1]: Leaving directory '/srv/alx/src/gnu/groff/master'
> 	make: *** [Makefile:16419: install] Error 2
> 	2

I do _not_ get such errors.  Shell session attached.

...but I'm building _from the release candidate archive_, as I advised
you to do.

> > Build finished successfully for me in about 60 seconds.
> 
> Out of curiosity, where did you get those timestamps from?  Does your
> history file store them?

Yes.  That's simply the output of Bash's "history" built-in.  I chopped
off the command numbers and removed irrelevancies like "ls".

> Using groff from git HEAD, I see the list as this:
> 
> 	$ cat ls.man 
> 	.TH a s d f
> 	.SH test
> 	foo
> 	.LS
> 	.IP \[bu] 3
> 	bar
> 	.IP \[bu]
> 	baz
> 	.LS
> 	.P
> 	qwe
> 	$ /opt/local/gnu/groff/20260823_master/bin/groff -man -Tutf8 ./ls.man 
> 	a(s)                                                                        a(s)
> 
> 	test
> 	     foo
> 
> 	     •  bar
> 
> 	     •  baz
> 
> 	     qwe
> 
> 	f                                       d                                   a(s)
> 
> Is this intended?  I thought it would imply PD 0.

Yes, it's intended.  If you want the list compact, you have to say so.

Also, you need to say what kind of list you're presenting.

groff_man(7):
     .LS type [compactness [indentation]]
            (since groff 1.25) Start (or open) a list.  type is one of
            “definition”, “enumerated”, or “itemized”.  compactness is a
            Boolean value directing suppression of inter‐paragraph
            spacing between list items.  indentation specifies an
            indentation amount for the body of each list item; it is
            then unnecessary to specify this argument to the list item
            macros.  Use IP with a mark argument to represent an
            itemized or enumerated list item, and TP for a definition
            list item.  Use IP without arguments to associate successive
            paragraphs with an existing list item; to these, inter‐
            paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.

     .LE    (since groff 1.25) End (or close) the most recent open list.

> 	.LS

Say instead:

.LS itemized 1

Regards,
Branden

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## 2026-08-23 09:05:06 bash-5.1 [8] {0} (0) branden@illithid:~/src/GIT/groff !978$ mkdir /tmp/rando
## 2026-08-23 09:05:10 bash-5.1 [8] {0} (0) branden@illithid:~/src/GIT/groff !979$ cd /tmp/rando
## 2026-08-23 09:05:11 bash-5.1 [8] {0} (0) branden@illithid:/tmp/rando !980$ wget 'https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz'
--2026-08-23 09:05:13--  https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz
Resolving alpha.gnu.org (alpha.gnu.org)... 2001:470:142:3::c, 209.51.188.21
Connecting to alpha.gnu.org (alpha.gnu.org)|2001:470:142:3::c|:443... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 9400645 (9.0M) [application/x-gzip]
Saving to: ‘groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz’

groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz              100%[=====================================================================>]   8.96M  17.5MB/s    in 0.5s    

2026-08-23 09:05:14 (17.5 MB/s) - ‘groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz’ saved [9400645/9400645]

## 2026-08-23 09:05:14 bash-5.1 [8] {0} (0) branden@illithid:/tmp/rando !981$ wget 'https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz.sig'
--2026-08-23 09:05:15--  https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/groff/groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz.sig
Resolving alpha.gnu.org (alpha.gnu.org)... 2001:470:142:3::c, 209.51.188.21
Connecting to alpha.gnu.org (alpha.gnu.org)|2001:470:142:3::c|:443... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 566 [application/pgp-signature]
Saving to: ‘groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz.sig’

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## 2026-08-23 09:05:15 bash-5.1 [8] {0} (0) branden@illithid:/tmp/rando !982$ gpg --verify groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz{.sig,}
gpg: Signature made Sat 01 Aug 2026 08:33:36 PM CDT
gpg:                using RSA key 8773D61D68E30E072B10DC1AD19E9C7D71266DCE
gpg: Good signature from "G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>" [ultimate]
## 2026-08-23 09:05:17 bash-5.1 [8] {0} (0) branden@illithid:/tmp/rando !983$ tar xf groff-1.25.0.rc2.tar.gz 
## 2026-08-23 09:05:22 bash-5.1 [8] {0} (0) branden@illithid:/tmp/rando !984$ cd groff-1.25.0.rc2/
## 2026-08-23 09:05:24 bash-5.1 [8] {0} (0) branden@illithid:/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2 !985$ ./configure --prefix=$HOME && make -j && make install
checking that groff version string has valid format... 1.25.0 valid
checking for gcc... gcc
checking whether the C compiler works... yes
checking for C compiler default output file name... a.out
checking for suffix of executables... 
checking whether we are cross compiling... no
checking for suffix of object files... o
checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... yes
checking whether gcc accepts -g... yes
checking for gcc option to enable C11 features... none needed
checking whether the compiler is clang... no
checking for compiler option needed when checking for declarations... none
checking how to run the C preprocessor... gcc -E
checking for grep that handles long lines and -e... /home/branden/bin/grep
checking for egrep... /home/branden/bin/grep -E
checking for ANSI C header files... yes
checking for sys/types.h... yes
checking for sys/stat.h... yes
checking for stdlib.h... yes
checking for string.h... yes
checking for memory.h... yes
checking for strings.h... yes
checking for inttypes.h... yes
checking for stdint.h... yes
checking for unistd.h... yes
checking for wchar.h... yes
checking for minix/config.h... no
checking for stdbool.h... yes
checking for uchar.h... yes
checking for unistd.h... (cached) yes
checking for features.h... yes
checking for getopt.h... yes
checking for threads.h... yes
checking for limits.h... yes
checking for inttypes.h... (cached) yes
checking for sys/types.h... (cached) yes
checking for stdint.h... (cached) yes
checking for crtdefs.h... no
checking for wctype.h... yes
checking for xlocale.h... no
checking for math.h... yes
checking for sys/mman.h... yes
checking for sys/param.h... yes
checking for pthread.h... yes
checking for sys/stat.h... (cached) yes
checking for sys/time.h... yes
checking for stdckdint.h... no
checking for stdcountof.h... no
checking for sys/socket.h... yes
checking for strings.h... (cached) yes
checking for sys/wait.h... yes
checking for stdlib.h... (cached) yes
checking whether it is safe to define __EXTENSIONS__... yes
checking whether _XOPEN_SOURCE should be defined... no
checking for a BSD-compatible install... /home/branden/bin/install -c
checking whether build environment is sane... yes
checking for a thread-safe mkdir -p... /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p
checking for gawk... gawk
checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes
checking whether make supports the include directive... yes (GNU style)
checking whether make supports nested variables... yes
checking dependency style of gcc... gcc3
checking whether to enable maintainer-specific portions of Makefiles... no
checking whether make supports nested variables... (cached) yes
checking for gcc... (cached) gcc
checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... (cached) yes
checking whether gcc accepts -g... (cached) yes
checking for gcc option to enable C11 features... (cached) unsupported
checking for gcc option to enable C99 features... none needed
checking whether the compiler is clang... (cached) no
checking for compiler option needed when checking for declarations... (cached) none
checking for g++... g++
checking whether we are using the GNU C++ compiler... yes
checking whether g++ accepts -g... yes
checking for g++ option to enable C++11 features... (cached) unsupported
checking for g++ option to enable C++98 features... none needed
checking dependency style of g++... gcc3
checking build system type... x86_64-pc-linux-gnu
checking host system type... x86_64-pc-linux-gnu
checking for Minix Amsterdam compiler... no
checking for ar... ar
checking for ranlib... ranlib
checking for gcc option to support large files... none needed
checking for size_t... yes
checking for working alloca.h... yes
checking for alloca... yes
checking whether the preprocessor supports include_next... yes
checking whether source code line length is unlimited... yes
checking whether char8_t is correctly defined... no
checking whether char16_t is correctly defined... yes
checking whether char32_t is correctly defined... yes
checking whether the C++ compiler has <uchar.h>... yes
checking for bit size of wchar_t... 32
checking for mbstate_t... yes
checking for mbsinit... yes
checking for mbrtowc... yes
checking for symlink... yes
checking for snprintf... yes
checking for vasnprintf... no
checking for iswcntrl... yes
checking for lstat... yes
checking for mprotect... yes
checking for readlink... yes
checking for vasprintf... yes
checking for wcwidth... yes
checking for nl_langinfo and CODESET... yes
checking for a traditional japanese locale... none
checking for an english Unicode locale... en_US.UTF-8
checking for a transitional chinese locale... none
checking whether mbrtowc handles incomplete characters... yes
checking whether mbrtowc works as well as mbtowc... guessing yes
checking whether mbrtoc32 is declared... yes
checking for mbrtoc32... yes
checking for a traditional french locale... none
checking whether mbrtoc32 works as well as mbrtowc... guessing yes
checking whether c32rtomb is declared... yes
checking for c32rtomb... yes
checking whether c32rtomb works as well as wcrtomb... guessing yes
checking for complete errno.h... yes
checking whether ctype.h defines __header_inline... no
checking for working fcntl.h... yes
checking for pid_t... yes
checking for mode_t... yes
checking whether byte ordering is bigendian... no
checking whether pow can be used without linking with libm... no
checking whether pow can be used with libm... yes
checking whether frexp() can be used without linking with libm... yes
checking whether alarm is declared... yes
checking whether frexp works... yes
checking whether trunc is declared... yes
checking whether isnan(double) can be used without linking with libm... yes
checking whether ldexp() can be used without linking with libm... yes
checking whether ldexp works... yes
checking for stdint.h... yes
checking for inttypes.h... yes
checking whether printf supports size specifiers as in C99... yes
checking whether printf supports size specifiers as in C23... no
checking whether printf supports 'long double' arguments... yes
checking whether printf supports infinite 'double' arguments... yes
checking whether long double and double are the same... no
checking whether printf supports infinite 'long double' arguments... yes
checking whether printf supports the 'a' and 'A' directives... yes
checking whether printf supports the 'b' directive... no
checking whether printf supports the 'F' directive... yes
checking whether printf supports the 'ls' directive... yes
checking whether printf supports the 'lc' directive correctly... yes
checking whether printf supports POSIX/XSI format strings with positions... yes
checking whether printf supports the grouping flag... yes
checking whether printf supports grouping on integers with a precision... guessing yes
checking whether printf supports grouping with a multibyte separator... guessing yes
checking whether printf supports the left-adjust flag correctly... yes
checking whether printf supports the zero flag correctly... yes
checking whether printf supports the alternative flag with a zero precision... yes
checking whether printf supports large precisions... yes
checking whether the compiler produces multi-arch binaries... no
checking whether printf survives out-of-memory conditions... yes
checking whether snprintf returns a byte count as in C99... yes
checking whether snprintf truncates the result as in C99... yes
checking for wint_t... yes
checking whether wint_t is large enough... yes
checking where to find the exponent in a 'double'... word 1 bit 20
checking for wcslen... yes
checking for snprintf... (cached) yes
checking for strnlen... yes
checking for wcrtomb... yes
checking whether _snprintf is declared... no
checking for intmax_t... yes
checking for getopt.h... (cached) yes
checking for getopt_long_only... yes
checking whether getopt is POSIX compatible... yes
checking for working GNU getopt function... yes
checking for working GNU getopt_long function... yes
checking for glibc-compatible sys/cdefs.h... yes
checking for pthread.h... (cached) yes
checking for pthread_kill in -lpthread... yes
checking whether POSIX threads API is available... yes
checking whether setlocale (LC_ALL, NULL) is thread-safe... yes
checking whether setlocale (category, NULL) is thread-safe... yes
checking whether limits.h has WORD_BIT, BOOL_WIDTH etc.... no
checking whether stdint.h conforms to C99... yes
checking whether stdint.h works without ISO C predefines... yes
checking whether stdint.h has UINTMAX_WIDTH etc.... yes
checking for C/C++ restrict keyword... __restrict__
checking where to find the exponent in a 'long double'... word 2 bit 0
checking where to find the exponent in a 'float'... word 0 bit 23
checking whether iswcntrl works... yes
checking for towlower... yes
checking for wctype_t... yes
checking for wctrans_t... yes
checking for good max_align_t... yes
checking whether NULL can be used in arbitrary expressions... yes
checking for unreachable in C... no
checking whether nullptr_t needs <stddef.h>... yes
checking whether <stddef.h> is idempotent... guessing yes
checking whether locale.h defines locale_t... yes
checking whether locale.h defines _locale_t... no
checking whether locale.h conforms to POSIX:2001... yes
checking whether struct lconv is properly defined... yes
checking whether lstat correctly handles trailing slash... yes
checking whether malloc is ptrdiff_t safe... yes
checking whether malloc, calloc set errno on failure... yes
checking whether malloc (0) returns nonnull... yes
checking whether NAN macro works... yes
checking whether HUGE_VAL works... yes
checking for inline... inline
checking for MAP_ANONYMOUS... yes
checking whether memchr works... yes
checking whether memeq is declared... no
checking whether memmem is declared... yes
checking for memmem... yes
checking whether memmem works... yes
checking whether imported symbols can be declared weak... yes
checking for multithreading API to use... posix
checking for pthread_t... yes
checking for pthread_spinlock_t... yes
checking for pthread_spin_init... yes
checking for sched.h... yes
checking for struct sched_param... yes
checking whether snprintf is declared... yes
checking whether stat file-mode macros are broken... no
checking for nlink_t... yes
checking for _Bool... yes
checking for stdbool.h that conforms to C99 or later... (cached) yes
checking whether the C++ compiler has <stdcountof.h>... no
checking whether fcloseall is declared... yes
checking whether getw is declared... yes
checking whether putw is declared... yes
checking which flavor of printf attribute matches inttypes macros... system
checking whether ecvt is declared... yes
checking whether fcvt is declared... yes
checking whether gcvt is declared... yes
checking whether MB_CUR_MAX is correct... yes
checking whether streq is declared... no
checking whether strerror(0) succeeds... yes
checking whether strsignal is declared... yes
checking for off64_t... yes
checking for blksize_t... yes
checking for blkcnt_t... yes
checking for struct timespec in <time.h>... yes
checking for TIME_UTC in <time.h>... yes
checking whether execvpe is declared... yes
checking whether vsnprintf is declared... yes
checking whether <wchar.h> uses 'inline' correctly... yes
checking whether wcsdup is declared... yes
checking for C compiler option to allow warnings... -Wno-error
checking for alloca as a compiler built-in... yes
checking for static_assert... yes, an <assert.h> macro
checking for bool, true, false... no
checking for __builtin_expect... yes
checking whether fabs can be used without linking with libm... no
checking whether fabs can be used with libm... yes
checking whether float.h conforms to ISO C23... no
checking whether conversion from 'int' to 'long double' works... yes
checking for ptrdiff_t... yes
checking whether free is known to preserve errno... no
checking whether frexp works... (cached) yes
checking whether frexpl is declared... yes
checking whether frexpl() can be used without linking with libm... yes
checking whether frexpl works... yes
checking for __fseterr... no
checking whether isfinite is declared... yes
checking whether isfinite(long double) works... yes
checking whether isinf is declared... yes
checking whether isinf(long double) works... yes
checking whether isnan(double) can be used without linking with libm... (cached) yes
checking whether isnan(float) can be used without linking with libm... yes
checking whether isnan(float) works... yes
checking whether isnan(long double) can be used without linking with libm... yes
checking whether isnanl works... yes
checking for iswblank... yes
checking whether iswblank is declared... yes
checking whether iswdigit is ISO C compliant... yes
checking whether iswpunct is consistent with ispunct... yes
checking whether iswxdigit is ISO C compliant... yes
checking whether ldexp works... (cached) yes
checking whether localeconv works... yes
checking whether mbrtoc32 works on empty input... yes
checking whether the C locale is free of encoding errors... no
checking whether mbrtoc32 works in an UTF-8 locale... yes
checking whether mbrtowc handles a NULL pwc argument... yes
checking whether mbrtowc has a correct return value... yes
checking whether mbrtowc returns 0 when parsing a NUL character... guessing yes
checking whether mbrtowc stores incomplete characters... no
checking whether mbrtowc works on empty input... yes
checking whether the C locale is free of encoding errors... no
checking whether mbrtowc recognizes invalid UTF-8... yes
checking whether memmem works in linear time... yes
checking for memmem... (cached) yes
checking whether memmem works... (cached) yes
checking whether frexp works... (cached) yes
checking whether ldexp can be used without linking with libm... (cached) yes
checking whether frexpl() can be used without linking with libm... (cached) yes
checking whether frexpl works... (cached) yes
checking whether frexpl is declared... (cached) yes
checking whether ldexpl() can be used without linking with libm... yes
checking whether ldexpl works... yes
checking whether ldexpl is declared... yes
checking for PTHREAD_CREATE_DETACHED... yes
checking for PTHREAD_MUTEX_RECURSIVE... yes
checking for PTHREAD_MUTEX_ROBUST... yes
checking for PTHREAD_PROCESS_SHARED... yes
checking whether pthread_once works... yes
checking whether pthread_once can be used without linking with libpthread... no
checking whether readlink signature is correct... yes
checking whether readlink handles trailing slash correctly... yes
checking whether readlink truncates results correctly... yes
checking for signbit macro... yes
checking for signbit compiler built-ins... yes
checking for SIZE_MAX... yes
checking for snprintf... (cached) yes
checking whether snprintf respects a size of 1... yes
checking for ssize_t... yes
checking whether stat handles trailing slashes on files... yes
checking for struct stat.st_atim.tv_nsec... yes
checking whether struct stat.st_atim is of type struct timespec... yes
checking for struct stat.st_birthtimespec.tv_nsec... no
checking for struct stat.st_birthtimensec... no
checking for struct stat.st_birthtim.tv_nsec... no
checking for strcasecmp... yes
checking whether strcasecmp works... guessing yes
checking for working strerror function... yes
checking for strncasecmp... yes
checking whether strcasecmp works... (cached) guessing yes
checking whether strncasecmp is declared... yes
checking for strsignal... yes
checking whether strsignal always returns a string... yes
checking whether trunc is declared... (cached) yes
checking whether unlink honors trailing slashes... yes
checking whether unlink of a parent directory fails as it should... guessing yes
checking for variable-length arrays... yes
checking for ptrdiff_t... (cached) yes
checking for vsnprintf... yes
checking whether snprintf respects a size of 1... (cached) yes
checking whether wcwidth is declared... yes
checking whether wcwidth works reasonably in UTF-8 locales... yes
checking whether to install .cmd wrapper scripts for Windows... no
checking for X... libraries , headers 
checking for gethostbyname... yes
checking for connect... yes
checking for remove... yes
checking for shmat... yes
checking for IceConnectionNumber in -lICE... yes
checking for Xaw library and header files... yes
checking for Xmu library and header files... yes
checking for a sed that does not truncate output... /usr/bin/sed
checking for perl... /usr/bin/perl
checking for perl version... 5.32.1
checking for lpr... lpr
checking for lp... lp
checking for lpq... lpq
checking option to use when spooling DVI files... -d
checking for egrep... (cached) /home/branden/bin/grep -E
checking for bison... bison -y
checking for m4... m4
checking for makeinfo... makeinfo
checking for makeinfo version... 6.7
checking for texi2dvi... texi2dvi
checking for tex... found
checking for ranlib... (cached) ranlib
checking for install-info... install-info
checking whether ln -s works... yes
checking for xpmtoppm... found
checking for pkg-config... /usr/bin/pkg-config
checking pkg-config is at least version 0.9.0... yes
checking for UCHARDET... yes
checking for csh hash hack... no
checking for stdbool.h... (cached) yes
checking stddef.h usability... yes
checking stddef.h presence... yes
checking for stddef.h... yes
checking for stdlib.h... (cached) yes
checking for unistd.h... (cached) yes
checking dirent.h usability... yes
checking dirent.h presence... yes
checking for dirent.h... yes
checking for limits.h... (cached) yes
checking sys/dir.h usability... yes
checking sys/dir.h presence... yes
checking for sys/dir.h... yes
checking for string.h... (cached) yes
checking for strings.h... (cached) yes
checking for math.h... (cached) yes
checking for sys/time.h... (cached) yes
checking direct.h usability... no
checking direct.h presence... no
checking for direct.h... no
checking process.h usability... no
checking process.h presence... no
checking for process.h... no
checking whether -D_POSIX_SOURCE is necessary... no
checking for return type of srand... void
checking whether gettimeofday must be declared... no
checking whether popen must be declared... no
checking whether pclose must be declared... no
checking whether rand must be declared... no
checking whether srand must be declared... no
checking whether vfprintf must be declared... no
checking for sys_nerr in <errno.h>, <stdio.h>, or <stdlib.h>... yes
checking for sys_errlist in <errno.h>, <stdio.h>, or <stdlib.h>... yes
checking C++ <osfcn.h>... no
checking C++ <limits.h>... yes
checking C++ <inttypes.h>... yes
checking for unsigned long long... yes
checking for declaration of time_t... yes
checking for return type of signal handlers... void
checking whether byte ordering is bigendian... (cached) no
checking for main in -lc... yes
checking for sin in -lm... yes
checking for ld used by gcc... /usr/bin/ld
checking if the linker (/usr/bin/ld) is GNU ld... yes
checking for shared library run path origin... done
checking how to run the C++ preprocessor... g++ -E
checking for iconv... yes
checking for working iconv... yes
checking for iconv declaration... 
         extern size_t iconv (iconv_t cd, char * *inbuf, size_t *inbytesleft, char * *outbuf, size_t *outbytesleft);
checking for getpagesize... yes
checking for working mmap... yes
checking for getcwd... yes
checking for strtol... yes
checking for gettimeofday... yes
checking for isatty... yes
checking for kill... yes
checking for rename... yes
checking for setlocale... yes
checking for strdup... yes
checking for strsep... yes
checking for mkstemp... yes
checking whether getc_unlocked is declared... yes
checking for nl_langinfo and CODESET... (cached) yes
checking whether ISO C++98 array deletion syntax is supported... yes
checking whether C preprocessor uses pre-ISO C90 syntax... no
checking w_coredump... no
checking default value for grops -b option... 0
checking default paper format... letter (inferred from /etc/papersize)
checking for existing troff installation... no
checking file name prefix of system macro packages... (none)
checking for system macro packages to make available... (none)
checking separator character to use in groff search paths... :
checking for gs... gs
checking for pnmcrop... found
checking for pamcut... found
checking for pnmtopng... found
checking for pnmtops... found
checking for ps2ps... found
checking for URW fonts in Type 1/PFB format... found in /usr/share/fonts/type1/urw-base35/
checking for options to make PNM tools quiet... -quiet
checking whether pnmtops accepts the '-nosetpage' option... yes
checking whether 'make' defines 'RM'... yes
checking for a diff program that supports option -D... diff
checking whether 'test' supports '-ef' option... yes
checking for gs version with good left sidebearing handling... got 9.53.3 (buggy)
checking whether we are using the GNU C Library >= 2.1 or uClibc... yes
checking that generated files are newer than configure... done
configure: creating ./config.status
config.status: creating Makefile
config.status: creating test-groff
config.status: creating src/include/config.h
config.status: executing depfiles commands
config.status: executing mkdir-bison-paths commands

GNU roff version 1.25.0.rc2 configuration summary
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 installation directory prefix    : /home/branden
 C++ compiler and options         : g++ -g -O2 
 C compiler and options           : gcc -g -O2 
 Perl interpreter version         : 5.32.1
 Ghostscript command              : gs
 URW fonts directory              : /usr/share/fonts/type1/urw-base35/
 gropdf service level             : full
 X11 support                      : enabled
 X11 app defaults directory       : /home/branden/lib/X11/app-defaults
 default paper format             : letter
 'groff -l' uses print spooler    : lpr
 preconv can use uchardet library : yes
 can build groff.{info,html,txt}  : yes
 can build groff.{dvi,pdf}        : yes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
configure: Default X11 application defaults directory assumed.

  The application defaults files for gxditview (GXditview and
  GXditview-color) will be installed in the following directory.

    /home/branden/lib/X11/app-defaults

  To install elsewhere, say, '/etc/X11/app-defaults', add
  '--with-appdefdir=/etc/X11/app-defaults' to the configure script
  command-line options and rerun it (the 'prefix' value has no effect on
  a --with-appdefdir option).

  If the gxditview app-defaults are installed in a directory that is not
  one of the default X11 directories for this purpose (common defaults
  are /usr/lib/X11/app-defaults, /usr/share/X11/app-defaults, and
  /etc/X11/app-defaults), you will have to set the environment variable
  XFILESEARCHPATH to this path.  More details can be found in the X(7)
  manual page, or in the document "X Toolkit Intrinsics - C Language
  Interface manual".
       
configure: Buggy version of Ghostscript detected.

  Ghostscript versions 9.00 <= x < 9.54 suffer from a rendering glitch
  that affects the AT&T troff (and groff) special character '\(lh'; see
  <https://bugs.ghostscript.com/show_bug.cgi?id=703187>.  If your
  version of Ghostscript has not been patched to fix this problem, you
  may need to work around it in groff documents you render for the
  PostScript (and, for tbl(1) tables, HTML) output devices.
  
  GEN      lib/alloca.h
  GEN      lib/fcntl.h
  GEN      lib/float.h
  GEN      lib/inttypes.h
  GEN      lib/limits.h
  GEN      lib/locale.h
  GEN      lib/math.h
  GEN      lib/pthread.h
  GEN      lib/sched.h
  GEN      lib/stdckdint.h
  GEN      lib/stdcountof.h
  GEN      lib/stddef.h
  GEN      lib/stdio.h
  GEN      lib/stdlib.h
  GEN      lib/string.h
  GEN      lib/strings.h
  GEN      lib/sys/stat.h
  GEN      lib/sys/types.h
  GEN      lib/sys/wait.h
  GEN      lib/time.h
  GEN      lib/uchar.h
  GEN      lib/unicase.h
  GEN      lib/unictype.h
  GEN      lib/uninorm.h
  GEN      lib/unistd.h
  GEN      lib/unitypes.h
  GEN      lib/uniwidth.h
  GEN      lib/wchar.h
  GEN      lib/wctype.h
make  all-recursive
make[1]: Entering directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
make[2]: Entering directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
  GEN      .version
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-unistd.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-vfzprintf.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-vsnzprintf.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-wctype-h.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-xsize.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-asnprintf.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-fprintf.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-printf-args.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-printf-parse.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-vasnprintf.o
  GEN      src/devices/xditview/GXditview-ad.h
  GEN      src/devices/xditview/groff_version.h
  GEN      eqn2graph
  GEN      gdiffmk
  GEN      shdeps.sed
  GEN      grap2graph
  GEN      mmroff
  GEN      pic2graph
  GEN      afmtodit
  GEN      grog
  GEN      pdfmom
  GEN      src/roff/troff/majorminor.cpp
  GEN      chem
  GEN      nroff
  GEN      neqn
  GEN      font/devascii/R
  GEN      font/devascii/I
  GEN      font/devascii/B
  GEN      font/devascii/BI
  GEN      font/devascii/DESC
  GEN      font/devdvi/DESC
  GEN      font/devhtml/R
  GEN      font/devhtml/I
  GEN      font/devhtml/B
  GEN      font/devhtml/BI
  GEN      font/devhtml/CR
  GEN      font/devhtml/CI
  GEN      font/devhtml/CBI
  GEN      font/devhtml/S
  GEN      font/devhtml/CB
  GEN      font/devhtml/DESC
  GEN      font/devlatin1/R
  GEN      font/devlatin1/I
  GEN      font/devlatin1/B
  GEN      font/devlatin1/BI
  GEN      font/devlatin1/DESC
  GEN      font/devlbp/DESC
  GEN      font/devpdf/DESC
  GEN      font/devpdf/util/BuildFoundries
  GEN      font/devpdf/Foundry
  GEN      font/devpdf/symbolsl.afm
  GEN      font/devpdf/symbolsl.pfb
  GEN      font/devutf8/R
  GEN      font/devutf8/I
  GEN      font/devpdf/SS
  GEN      font/devutf8/B
  GEN      font/devutf8/BI
  GEN      font/devutf8/DESC
  GEN      font/devps/DESC
  GEN      font/devps/prologue
  GEN      font/devps/freeeuro.pfa
  GEN      font/devps/zapfdr.pfa
  GEN      font/devps/symbolsl.pfa
  GEN      tmac/www.tmac
  GEN      font/devlj4/DESC
  GEN      doc/groff-man-pages-cover.groff
  GEN      doc/ms.ms
  GEN      contrib/hdtbl/examples/fonts_n.roff
  GEN      contrib/hdtbl/examples/fonts_x.roff
  GEN      doc/meref.me
  GEN      doc/meintro.me
  GEN      doc/meintro_fr.me
  CXX      src/devices/grodvi/dvi.o
  CXX      src/libs/libdriver/input.o
  CXX      src/libs/libdriver/printer.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-change_lf.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-cmap.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-cset.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-color.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-device.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-curtime.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-errarg.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-error.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-fatal.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-filename.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-font.o
  GEN      contrib/sboxes/msboxes.ms
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-fontfile.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-geometry.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-glyphuni.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-htmlhint.o
  CC       src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-iftoa.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-invalid.o
  CC       src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-itoa.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-json_encode.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-lf.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-lineno.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-macropath.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-maxfilename.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-maxpathname.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-mksdir.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-nametoindex.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-paper.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-prime.o
  CC       src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-progname.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-ptable.o
  CC       src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-quotearg.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-relocate.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-searchpath.o
  CC       src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-spawnvp.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-string.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-strsave.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-symbol.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-tmpfile.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-tmpname.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-unicode.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-uniglyph.o
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-uniuni.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32isalnum.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32isalpha.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32isblank.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32iscntrl.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32isdigit.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32isgraph.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32islower.o
  GEN      src/libs/libgroff/version.cpp
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32isprint.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32ispunct.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32isspace.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32isupper.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32isxdigit.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32tolower.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-c32width.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-float.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-free.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-fseterr.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-hard-locale.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-issymlink.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-localcharset.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-malloca.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-math.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-mbchar.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-mbiter-aux.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-mbiterf.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-mbrtowc.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-mbrtoc32.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-mbsnlen.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-mbszero.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-memeq.o
  CC       lib/glthread/libgnu_a-once.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-printf-frexp.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-printf-frexpl.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-setlocale_null.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-setlocale_null-unlocked.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-stat-time.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-stdlib.o
  CC       lib/libgnu_a-streq.o
  CC       lib/glthread/libgnu_a-threadlib.o
  CC       lib/glthread/libgnu_a-tls.o
  CC       lib/unicase/libgnu_a-tolower.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_alnum.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_alpha.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_blank.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_cntrl.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_digit.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_graph.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_lower.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_print.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_punct.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_space.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_upper.o
  CC       lib/uniwidth/libgnu_a-width.o
  CC       lib/unictype/libgnu_a-ctype_xdigit.o
  CXX      src/devices/grohtml/post-html.o
  CXX      src/devices/grohtml/html-table.o
  CXX      src/devices/grohtml/output.o
  CXX      src/devices/grohtml/html-text.o
  CXX      src/devices/grolbp/lbp.o
  CXX      src/devices/grops/ps.o
  CXX      src/devices/grolj4/lj4.o
  CXX      src/devices/grops/psrm.o
  CXX      src/devices/grotty/tty.o
  CC       src/devices/xditview/gxditview-device.o
  CC       src/devices/xditview/gxditview-draw.o
  CC       src/devices/xditview/gxditview-Dvi.o
  CC       src/devices/xditview/gxditview-font.o
  CC       src/devices/xditview/gxditview-lex.o
  CC       src/devices/xditview/gxditview-page.o
  CC       src/devices/xditview/gxditview-parse.o
  CC       src/devices/xditview/gxditview-xditview.o
  CC       src/libs/libxutil/libxutil_a-DviChar.o
  CC       src/libs/libxutil/libxutil_a-XFontName.o
  CC       src/libs/libxutil/libxutil_a-xmalloc.o
  CXX      src/preproc/html/pre-html.o
  CXX      src/preproc/html/pushback.o
  CXX      src/preproc/preconv/preconv-preconv.o
  CXX      src/roff/groff/groff.o
  CC       src/roff/groff/pipeline.o
  CXX      src/utils/addftinfo/addftinfo.o
  CXX      src/utils/addftinfo/guess.o
  CXX      src/utils/hpftodit/hpftodit.o
  CXX      src/utils/hpftodit/hpuni.o
  CXX      src/utils/lkbib/lkbib.o
  CXX      src/libs/libbib/common.o
  CXX      src/libs/libbib/index.o
  CXX      src/libs/libbib/linear.o
  CXX      src/libs/libbib/search.o
  CC       src/libs/libbib/map.o
  CC       src/utils/pfbtops/pfbtops.o
  CXX      src/utils/tfmtodit/tfmtodit.o
  CC       src/utils/xtotroff/xtotroff-xtotroff.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-main.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-lex.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-box.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-limit.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-list.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-over.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-text.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-script.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-mark.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-other.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-delim.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-sqrt.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-pile.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-special.o
  CXX      src/preproc/eqn/eqn-eqn.o
  CXX      src/preproc/grn/hdb.o
  CXX      src/preproc/grn/hpoint.o
  CXX      src/preproc/grn/hgraph.o
  CXX      src/preproc/grn/main.o
  CXX      src/preproc/pic/pic-pic.o
  CXX      src/preproc/pic/pic-lex.o
  CXX      src/preproc/pic/pic-main.o
  CXX      src/preproc/pic/pic-object.o
  CXX      src/preproc/pic/pic-common.o
  CXX      src/preproc/pic/pic-troff.o
  CXX      src/preproc/pic/pic-tex.o
  CXX      src/preproc/refer/refer-command.o
  CXX      src/preproc/refer/refer-ref.o
  CXX      src/preproc/refer/refer-refer.o
  CXX      src/preproc/refer/refer-token.o
  CXX      src/preproc/refer/refer-label.o
  CXX      src/preproc/soelim/soelim.o
  CXX      src/preproc/tbl/main.o
  CXX      src/preproc/tbl/table.o
  CXX      src/roff/troff/dictionary.o
  CXX      src/roff/troff/div.o
  CXX      src/roff/troff/env.o
  CXX      src/roff/troff/input.o
  CXX      src/roff/troff/mtsm.o
  CXX      src/roff/troff/node.o
  CXX      src/roff/troff/number.o
  CXX      src/roff/troff/reg.o
  CXX      src/roff/troff/majorminor.o
  CXX      src/utils/indxbib/indxbib.o
  CC       src/utils/indxbib/signal.o
  CXX      src/utils/lookbib/lookbib.o
  GEN      glilypond
  GEN      gperl
  GEN      gpinyin
  GEN      gropdf
  GEN      tmac/groff_man.7.man
  GEN      tmac/groff_man_style.7.man
  GEN      font/devpdf/download
  AR       libdriver.a
  CXX      src/libs/libgroff/libgroff_a-version.o
  AR       lib/libgnu.a
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description AB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description ABI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description AI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description AR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description BMB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description BMBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description BMI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description BMR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description CB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description CBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description CI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description CR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description HB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description HBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description HI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description HNB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description HNBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description HNI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description HNR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description HR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description NB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description NBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description NI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description NR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description PB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description PBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description PI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description PR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description S for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description TB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description TBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description TI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description TR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description ZCMI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description ZD for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: copied grops font description EURO for gropdf
  AR       libgroff.a
  CXXLD    grodvi
  CXXLD    addftinfo
  CCLD     pfbtops
  AR       libxutil.a
  CCLD     xtotroff
  CCLD     gxditview
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-AB for gropdf
  CXXLD    soelim
  CXXLD    grolj4
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-ABI for gropdf
  GEN      contrib/chem/chem.1
  GEN      contrib/eqn2graph/eqn2graph.1
  GEN      contrib/gdiffmk/gdiffmk.1
  GEN      contrib/glilypond/glilypond.1
  GEN      contrib/gperl/gperl.1
  GEN      contrib/gpinyin/gpinyin.1
  GEN      contrib/grap2graph/grap2graph.1
  GEN      contrib/mm/mmroff.1
  GEN      contrib/pic2graph/pic2graph.1
  GEN      src/devices/grodvi/grodvi.1
  GEN      src/devices/grohtml/grohtml.1
  GEN      src/devices/grolbp/grolbp.1
  GEN      src/devices/grolj4/grolj4.1
  GEN      src/devices/gropdf/gropdf.1
  GEN      src/devices/grops/grops.1
  GEN      src/devices/grotty/grotty.1
  GEN      src/devices/xditview/gxditview.1
  GEN      src/preproc/preconv/preconv.1
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-AI for gropdf
  GEN      src/utils/addftinfo/addftinfo.1
  GEN      src/roff/groff/groff.1
  GEN      src/utils/afmtodit/afmtodit.1
  GEN      src/utils/grog/grog.1
  GEN      src/utils/hpftodit/hpftodit.1
  GEN      src/utils/lkbib/lkbib.1
  GEN      src/utils/pdfmom/pdfmom.1
  GEN      src/utils/pfbtops/pfbtops.1
  GEN      src/utils/tfmtodit/tfmtodit.1
  GEN      src/utils/xtotroff/xtotroff.1
  GEN      src/preproc/eqn/eqn.1
  GEN      src/preproc/eqn/neqn.1
  GEN      src/preproc/grn/grn.1
  GEN      src/preproc/pic/pic.1
  GEN      src/preproc/refer/refer.1
  GEN      src/preproc/soelim/soelim.1
  GEN      src/preproc/tbl/tbl.1
  GEN      src/roff/nroff/nroff.1
  GEN      src/roff/troff/troff.1
  GEN      src/utils/indxbib/indxbib.1
  GEN      src/utils/lookbib/lookbib.1
  GEN      man/groff_font.5
  GEN      man/groff_out.5
  GEN      man/groff_tmac.5
  GEN      contrib/hdtbl/groff_hdtbl.7
  GEN      contrib/mm/groff_mm.7
  GEN      contrib/mm/groff_mmse.7
  GEN      contrib/mom/groff_mom.7
  GEN      contrib/rfc1345/groff_rfc1345.7
  GEN      man/groff_char.7
  GEN      man/groff_diff.7
  GEN      man/groff.7
  GEN      man/roff.7
  GEN      tmac/groff_ms.7
  GEN      tmac/groff_man.7
  GEN      tmac/groff_man_style.7
  GEN      tmac/groff_me.7
  GEN      tmac/groff_mdoc.7
  GEN      tmac/groff_trace.7
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-AR for gropdf
  GEN      tmac/groff_www.7
  CXXLD    grotty
  CXXLD    pre-grohtml
  CXXLD    preconv
  CXXLD    groff
  AR       libbib.a
  CXXLD    grn
  CXXLD    lkbib
  CXXLD    lookbib
  CXXLD    tfmtodit
  CXXLD    indxbib
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-BMB for gropdf
  CXXLD    eqn
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-BMBI for gropdf
  CXXLD    hpftodit
  CXXLD    grops
  CXXLD    refer
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-BMI for gropdf
  CXXLD    grolbp
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-BMR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-CB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-CBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-CI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-CR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-HB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-HBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-HI for gropdf
  CXXLD    pic
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-HNB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-HNBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-HNI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-HNR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-HR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-NB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-NBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-NI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-NR for gropdf
  CXXLD    tbl
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-PB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-PBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-PI for gropdf
  CXXLD    post-grohtml
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-PR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-S for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-TB for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-TBI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-TI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-TR for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-ZCMI for gropdf
BuildFoundries: notice: generated font description U-ZD for gropdf
  CXXLD    troff
  GROFF    doc/pic.html
  GROFF    doc/webpage.html
  GROFF    doc/webpage.ps
  GROFF    doc/grnexmpl.ps
  GROFF    doc/automake.pdf
  GROFF    doc/groff-man-pages.pdf
  GROFF    doc/ms.pdf
  GROFF    doc/pic.pdf
  GROFF    doc/groff-pdf-features.pdf
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_boxes.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/chess_board.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_nested_tables.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_table_cells.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_transitions.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/col_rowspan_colors.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/fonts_n.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/fonts_x.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/mixed_pickles.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/rainbow.ps
  GROFF    contrib/hdtbl/examples/short_reference.ps
  GROFF    contrib/mom/examples/letter.pdf
  GROFF    contrib/mom/examples/mom-pdf.pdf
  GROFF    contrib/mom/examples/mon_premier_doc.pdf
  GROFF    contrib/mom/examples/sample_docs.pdf
  GROFF    contrib/mom/examples/slide-demo.pdf
  GROFF    contrib/mom/examples/copyright-default.pdf
  GROFF    contrib/mom/examples/copyright-chapter.pdf
  GROFF    contrib/mom/examples/typesetting.pdf
  GROFF    doc/meref.ps
  GROFF    doc/meintro.ps
  GROFF    doc/meintro_fr.ps
  GROFF    doc/groff-man-pages.utf8.txt
  GROFF    contrib/sboxes/msboxes.pdf
fonts_x.roff: listing fonts in ./font/devps
fonts_n.roff: listing fonts in ./font/devps
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'AB' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'AB' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'ABI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'ABI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'AI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'AI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'AR' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'AR' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'BMB' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'BMB' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'BMBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'BMBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'BMI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'BMI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'BMR' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'BMR' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CB' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CB' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CR' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CR' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CSH' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CSH' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CSS' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CTH' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CSS' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CTS' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CTH' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'EURO' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'CTS' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HB' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'EURO' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HB' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HNB' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HNBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HNB' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HNI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HNBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HNR' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HNI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HR' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HNR' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'JPG' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'HR' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'JPM' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'JPG' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'KOG' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'JPM' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'KOM' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'KOG' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'NB' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'KOM' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'NBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'NB' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'NI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'NBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'NR' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'PB' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'NI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'PBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'NR' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'PI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'PB' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'PR' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'PBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'S' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'PI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'SS' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'PR' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'TB' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'S' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'TBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'SS' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'TI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'TB' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'TR' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'TBI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'ZCMI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'TI' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'ZD' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'TR' with hdtbl...
fonts_x.roff: listing glyphs in font 'ZDR' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'ZCMI' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'ZD' with hdtbl...
fonts_n.roff: listing glyphs in font 'ZDR' with hdtbl...
troff: backtrace: file '<standard input>':1075
troff:<standard input>:1075: warning: special character '.j' not defined [-w char]
troff: backtrace: file '<standard input>':1481
troff:<standard input>:1481: warning: special character 'vA' not defined [-w char]
troff: backtrace: file '<standard input>':1611
troff:<standard input>:1611: warning: special character 'bs' not defined [-w char]
troff: backtrace: file '<standard input>':1784
troff:<standard input>:1784: warning: special character '-+' not defined [-w char]
troff: backtrace: file '<standard input>':1833
troff:<standard input>:1833: warning: special character 'coproduct' not defined [-w char]
troff: backtrace: file '<standard input>':1933
troff:<standard input>:1933: warning: special character '+e' not defined [-w char]
make[2]: Leaving directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
make[1]: Leaving directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
make  install-recursive
make[1]: Entering directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
make[2]: Entering directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
make[3]: Entering directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/bin'
  /home/branden/bin/install -c grodvi post-grohtml grolbp grolj4 grops grotty gxditview pre-grohtml preconv groff addftinfo hpftodit lkbib pfbtops tfmtodit xtotroff '/home/branden/bin'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/bin'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c eqn2graph gdiffmk glilypond gperl gpinyin grap2graph mmroff pic2graph gropdf afmtodit grog pdfmom '/home/branden/bin'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/bin'
  /home/branden/bin/install -c eqn grn pic refer soelim tbl troff indxbib lookbib '/home/branden/bin'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/bin'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c chem neqn nroff '/home/branden/bin'
make  install-exec-hook
make[4]: Entering directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
make[4]: Nothing to be done for 'install-exec-hook'.
make[4]: Leaving directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
test -d /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/chem/cstr-122 \
          || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/chem/cstr-122;
for i in ./contrib/chem/examples/cstr-122/*; do \
  n=`echo $i | sed 's|./contrib/chem/examples/cstr-122/||g'`; \
  /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 $i /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/chem/cstr-122/$n; \
done
test -d /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac
test -d /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/mm || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/mm
rm -f /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/tmac.`if test no = yes; then for i in  ""; do case "$i" in m) echo g;; esac; done; fi`m
rm -f /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/`if test no = yes; then for i in  ""; do case "$i" in m) echo g;; esac; done; fi`m.tmac
/home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 ./contrib/mm/m.tmac \
  /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/`if test no = yes; then for i in  ""; do case "$i" in m) echo g;; esac; done; fi`m.tmac
LANG=C LC_ALL=C sed -e "s;^.mso m.tmac;.mso `if test no = yes; then for i in  ""; do case "$i" in m) echo g;; esac; done; fi`m.tmac;g" \
  ./contrib/mm/mse.tmac > /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/`if test no = yes; then for i in  ""; do case "$i" in m) echo g;; esac; done; fi`mse.tmac
test -d /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0 \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0
for d in doc /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/doc; do \
  if [ -f "$d"/groff.txt ]; then \
    cp "$d"/groff.txt /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0; \
    break; \
  fi; \
done
test -d /home/branden/share/info \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/info
rm -f /home/branden/share/info/groff.info*
for d in doc /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/doc; do \
  if [ -f "$d"/groff.info ]; then \
    cp "$d"/groff.info* /home/branden/share/info; \
    install-info --info-file="$d"/groff.info \
      --info-dir=/home/branden/share/info; \
    break; \
  fi; \
done
/home/branden/bin/mkdir -p /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font
/home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 ./src/devices/xditview/FontMap-X11 \
  /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/FontMap-X11
test -d /home/branden/lib/X11/app-defaults \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/lib/X11/app-defaults
/home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 ./src/devices/xditview/GXditview.ad \
  /home/branden/lib/X11/app-defaults/GXditview
/home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 ./src/devices/xditview/GXditview-color.ad \
  /home/branden/lib/X11/app-defaults/GXditview-color
test -d /home/branden/share \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share
test -d /home/branden/share/groff \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/groff
test -d /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0 \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0
if test -f /usr/lib/eign; then \
  rm -f /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/eign; \
  ln -s /usr/lib/eign /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/eign 2>/dev/null \
    || ln /usr/lib/eign /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/eign 2>/dev/null \
    || cp /usr/lib/eign /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/eign; \
else \
  rm -f /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/eign; \
  /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 ./src/utils/indxbib/eign /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/eign; \
fi
/home/branden/bin/mkdir -p /home/branden/lib/groff/site-tmac;
if test "no" != "no"; then \
  if test -n ""; then \
    for m in ""; do \
      /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/$m-wrap \
        /home/branden/lib/groff/site-tmac/$m`if test no = manual; then echo "-os"; fi`.tmac; \
    done; \
  fi; \
fi
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devX100-12'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devX100-12/DESC font/devX100-12/TR font/devX100-12/TI font/devX100-12/TB font/devX100-12/TBI font/devX100-12/CR font/devX100-12/CI font/devX100-12/CB font/devX100-12/CBI font/devX100-12/HR font/devX100-12/HI font/devX100-12/HB font/devX100-12/HBI font/devX100-12/NR font/devX100-12/NI font/devX100-12/NB font/devX100-12/NBI font/devX100-12/S '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devX100-12'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devX100'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devX100/DESC font/devX100/TR font/devX100/TI font/devX100/TB font/devX100/TBI font/devX100/CR font/devX100/CI font/devX100/CB font/devX100/CBI font/devX100/HR font/devX100/HI font/devX100/HB font/devX100/HBI font/devX100/NR font/devX100/NI font/devX100/NB font/devX100/NBI font/devX100/S '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devX100'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devX75-12'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devX75-12/DESC font/devX75-12/TR font/devX75-12/TI font/devX75-12/TB font/devX75-12/TBI font/devX75-12/CR font/devX75-12/CI font/devX75-12/CB font/devX75-12/CBI font/devX75-12/HR font/devX75-12/HI font/devX75-12/HB font/devX75-12/HBI font/devX75-12/NR font/devX75-12/NI font/devX75-12/NB font/devX75-12/NBI font/devX75-12/S '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devX75-12'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devX75'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devX75/DESC font/devX75/TR font/devX75/TI font/devX75/TB font/devX75/TBI font/devX75/CR font/devX75/CI font/devX75/CB font/devX75/CBI font/devX75/HR font/devX75/HI font/devX75/HB font/devX75/HBI font/devX75/NR font/devX75/NI font/devX75/NB font/devX75/NBI font/devX75/S '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devX75'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devascii'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devascii/R font/devascii/I font/devascii/B font/devascii/BI font/devascii/DESC '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devascii'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devdvi'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devdvi/TR font/devdvi/TI font/devdvi/TB font/devdvi/TBI font/devdvi/CW font/devdvi/CWI font/devdvi/HR font/devdvi/HI font/devdvi/HB font/devdvi/HBI font/devdvi/TREC font/devdvi/TIEC font/devdvi/TBEC font/devdvi/TBIEC font/devdvi/CWEC font/devdvi/CWIEC font/devdvi/HREC font/devdvi/HIEC font/devdvi/HBEC font/devdvi/HBIEC font/devdvi/TRTC font/devdvi/TITC font/devdvi/TBTC font/devdvi/TBITC font/devdvi/CWTC font/devdvi/CWITC font/devdvi/HRTC font/devdvi/HITC font/devdvi/HBTC font/devdvi/HBITC font/devdvi/MI font/devdvi/S font/devdvi/EX font/devdvi/SA font/devdvi/SB font/devdvi/SC font/devdvi/CSH font/devdvi/CSS font/devdvi/CTH font/devdvi/CTS '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devdvi'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devdvi/JPG font/devdvi/JPM font/devdvi/KOG font/devdvi/KOM font/devdvi/DESC '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devdvi'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devdvi/generate'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devdvi/generate/Makefile font/devdvi/generate/msam.map font/devdvi/generate/msbm.map font/devdvi/generate/texb.map font/devdvi/generate/texex.map font/devdvi/generate/texi.map font/devdvi/generate/texmi.map font/devdvi/generate/texr.map font/devdvi/generate/texsy.map font/devdvi/generate/textt.map font/devdvi/generate/textex.map font/devdvi/generate/ec.map font/devdvi/generate/tc.map font/devdvi/generate/CompileFonts '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devdvi/generate'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devhtml'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devhtml/R font/devhtml/I font/devhtml/B font/devhtml/BI font/devhtml/CR font/devhtml/CI font/devhtml/CB font/devhtml/CBI font/devhtml/S font/devhtml/CSH font/devhtml/CSS font/devhtml/CTH font/devhtml/CTS font/devhtml/JPG font/devhtml/JPM font/devhtml/KOG font/devhtml/KOM font/devhtml/DESC '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devhtml'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlatin1'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devlatin1/R font/devlatin1/I font/devlatin1/B font/devlatin1/BI font/devlatin1/DESC '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlatin1'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlbp'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devlbp/HB font/devlbp/HBI font/devlbp/HI font/devlbp/HR font/devlbp/HNB font/devlbp/HNBI font/devlbp/HNI font/devlbp/HNR font/devlbp/TB font/devlbp/TBI font/devlbp/TI font/devlbp/TR font/devlbp/CR font/devlbp/CB font/devlbp/CI font/devlbp/ER font/devlbp/EB font/devlbp/EI font/devlbp/DESC '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlbp'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devpdf'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devpdf/S font/devpdf/ZD font/devpdf/CB font/devpdf/CBI font/devpdf/CI font/devpdf/CR font/devpdf/HB font/devpdf/HBI font/devpdf/HI font/devpdf/HR font/devpdf/TB font/devpdf/TBI font/devpdf/TI font/devpdf/TR font/devpdf/EURO font/devpdf/AB font/devpdf/ABI font/devpdf/AI font/devpdf/AR font/devpdf/BMB font/devpdf/BMBI font/devpdf/BMI font/devpdf/BMR font/devpdf/HNB font/devpdf/HNBI font/devpdf/HNI font/devpdf/HNR font/devpdf/NB font/devpdf/NBI font/devpdf/NI font/devpdf/NR font/devpdf/PB font/devpdf/PBI font/devpdf/PI font/devpdf/PR font/devpdf/ZCMI font/devpdf/U-S font/devpdf/U-ZD font/devpdf/U-ZCMI font/devpdf/U-AB '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devpdf'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devpdf/U-ABI font/devpdf/U-AI font/devpdf/U-AR font/devpdf/U-BMB font/devpdf/U-BMBI font/devpdf/U-BMI font/devpdf/U-BMR font/devpdf/U-CB font/devpdf/U-CBI font/devpdf/U-CI font/devpdf/U-CR font/devpdf/U-HB font/devpdf/U-HBI font/devpdf/U-HI font/devpdf/U-HR font/devpdf/U-HNB font/devpdf/U-HNBI font/devpdf/U-HNI font/devpdf/U-HNR font/devpdf/U-NB font/devpdf/U-NBI font/devpdf/U-NI font/devpdf/U-NR font/devpdf/U-PB font/devpdf/U-PBI font/devpdf/U-PI font/devpdf/U-PR font/devpdf/U-TB font/devpdf/U-TBI font/devpdf/U-TI font/devpdf/U-TR font/devpdf/DESC font/devpdf/SS font/devpdf/symbolsl.afm font/devpdf/symbolsl.pfb font/devpdf/download font/devpdf/Foundry '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devpdf'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devpdf/enc'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devpdf/enc/text.enc '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devpdf/enc'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devpdf/map'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devpdf/map/dingbats.map font/devpdf/map/symbol.map font/devpdf/map/text.map '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devpdf/map'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devutf8'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devutf8/R font/devutf8/I font/devutf8/B font/devutf8/BI font/devutf8/CSH font/devutf8/CSS font/devutf8/CTH font/devutf8/CTS font/devutf8/JPG font/devutf8/JPM font/devutf8/KOG font/devutf8/KOM font/devutf8/DESC '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devutf8'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/chem'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/chem/examples/README contrib/chem/examples/atp.chem contrib/chem/examples/cholesterol.chem contrib/chem/examples/ethamivan.chem contrib/chem/examples/lsd.chem contrib/chem/examples/mepacrine.chem contrib/chem/examples/morphine.chem contrib/chem/examples/penicillin.chem contrib/chem/examples/reserpine.chem '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/chem'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 ./contrib/chem/chem.pic '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlj4'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devlj4/AB font/devlj4/ABI font/devlj4/AI font/devlj4/AR font/devlj4/ALBB font/devlj4/ALBR font/devlj4/AOB font/devlj4/AOI font/devlj4/AOR font/devlj4/CB font/devlj4/CBI font/devlj4/CI font/devlj4/CR font/devlj4/GB font/devlj4/GBI font/devlj4/GI font/devlj4/GR font/devlj4/LGB font/devlj4/LGI font/devlj4/LGR font/devlj4/OB font/devlj4/OBI font/devlj4/OI font/devlj4/OR font/devlj4/TB font/devlj4/TBI font/devlj4/TI font/devlj4/TR font/devlj4/TNRB font/devlj4/TNRBI font/devlj4/TNRI font/devlj4/TNRR font/devlj4/UB font/devlj4/UBI font/devlj4/UI font/devlj4/UR font/devlj4/UCB font/devlj4/UCBI font/devlj4/UCI font/devlj4/UCR '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlj4'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devlj4/CLARENDON font/devlj4/CORONET font/devlj4/MARIGOLD font/devlj4/S font/devlj4/SYMBOL font/devlj4/WINGDINGS '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlj4'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlj4/generate'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devlj4/generate/Makefile font/devlj4/generate/special.map font/devlj4/generate/symbol.map font/devlj4/generate/text.map font/devlj4/generate/wingdings.map font/devlj4/generate/special.awk '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlj4/generate'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devps'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devps/S font/devps/SS font/devps/ZD font/devps/ZDR font/devps/ZCMI font/devps/AB font/devps/ABI font/devps/AI font/devps/AR font/devps/BMB font/devps/BMBI font/devps/BMI font/devps/BMR font/devps/CB font/devps/CBI font/devps/CI font/devps/CR font/devps/HB font/devps/HBI font/devps/HI font/devps/HR font/devps/HNB font/devps/HNBI font/devps/HNI font/devps/HNR font/devps/NB font/devps/NBI font/devps/NI font/devps/NR font/devps/PB font/devps/PBI font/devps/PI font/devps/PR font/devps/TB font/devps/TBI font/devps/TI font/devps/TR font/devps/EURO font/devps/CSH font/devps/CSS '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devps'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devps/CTH font/devps/CTS font/devps/JPG font/devps/JPM font/devps/KOG font/devps/KOM font/devps/freeeuro.afm font/devps/symbolsl.afm font/devps/text.enc font/devps/zapfdr.afm font/devps/download '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devps'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devps/generate'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devps/generate/Makefile font/devps/generate/dingbats.map font/devps/generate/dingbats-reversed.map font/devps/generate/slanted-symbol.map font/devps/generate/symbol.map font/devps/generate/symbolsl.awk font/devps/generate/text.map font/devps/generate/afmname font/devps/generate/symbol.sed '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devps/generate'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 doc/webpage.ms doc/groff.css doc/grnexmpl.g doc/grnexmpl.me '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/eqnrc '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/dvi.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/lbp.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/lj4.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/pdf.tmac tmac/pdfpic.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/europs.tmac tmac/ps.tmac tmac/psatk.tmac tmac/psfig.tmac tmac/psold.tmac tmac/pspic.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/tty.tmac tmac/tty-char.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/hdtbl'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/hdtbl/examples/common.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/chess_board.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_boxes.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_nested_tables.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_table_cells.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_transitions.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/col_rowspan_colors.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/mixed_pickles.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/rainbow.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/short_reference.roff '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/hdtbl'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/hdtbl/hdtbl.tmac contrib/hdtbl/hdmisc.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/install-font/install-font.bash '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/site-tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/man.local tmac/mdoc.local '/home/branden/share/groff/site-tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/mdoc'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/mdoc/doc-common tmac/mdoc/doc-ditroff tmac/mdoc/doc-nroff tmac/mdoc/doc-syms '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/mdoc'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/mm'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/mm/mm/0.MT contrib/mm/mm/5.MT contrib/mm/mm/4.MT contrib/mm/mm/ms.cov contrib/mm/mm/se_ms.cov '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/mm'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/mm'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/mm/examples/letter.mm contrib/mm/examples/memorandum.mm contrib/mm/examples/story.mm '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/mm'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/mom'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/mom/examples/letter.mom contrib/mom/examples/mom-pdf.mom contrib/mom/examples/mon_premier_doc.mom contrib/mom/examples/sample_docs.mom contrib/mom/examples/typesetting.mom contrib/mom/examples/README.txt contrib/mom/examples/README-fr.txt contrib/mom/examples/elvis_syntax contrib/mom/examples/elvis_syntax.new contrib/mom/examples/penguin.ps contrib/mom/examples/penguin.pdf contrib/mom/examples/mom.vim contrib/mom/examples/slide-demo.mom contrib/mom/examples/copyright-default.mom contrib/mom/examples/copyright-chapter.mom '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/mom'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/mom/mom.tmac contrib/mom/om.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/oldfont/devps'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devps/old/S font/devps/old/SS font/devps/old/CB font/devps/old/CBI font/devps/old/CI font/devps/old/CR font/devps/old/HB font/devps/old/HBI font/devps/old/HI font/devps/old/HR font/devps/old/HNB font/devps/old/HNBI font/devps/old/HNI font/devps/old/HNR font/devps/old/NB font/devps/old/NBI font/devps/old/NI font/devps/old/NR font/devps/old/PB font/devps/old/PBI font/devps/old/PI font/devps/old/PR font/devps/old/TB font/devps/old/TBI font/devps/old/TI font/devps/old/TR font/devps/old/symbol.afm font/devps/old/symbolsl.afm font/devps/old/zapfdr.afm font/devps/old/zapfdr.ps '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/oldfont/devps'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 doc/me-revisions doc/pic.ms doc/groff-pdf-features.ms '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/pic.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/html.tmac tmac/html-end.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/refer.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/rfc1345/rfc1345.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/sboxes/sboxes.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/man.tmac tmac/mandoc.tmac tmac/andoc.tmac tmac/an-ext.tmac tmac/ms.tmac tmac/e.tmac tmac/me.tmac tmac/doc-old.tmac tmac/doc.tmac tmac/mdoc.tmac tmac/papersize.tmac tmac/62bit.tmac tmac/ec.tmac tmac/trace.tmac tmac/ptx.tmac tmac/latin1.tmac tmac/latin2.tmac tmac/latin5.tmac tmac/latin9.tmac tmac/koi8-r.tmac tmac/X.tmac tmac/Xps.tmac tmac/devtag.tmac tmac/composite.tmac tmac/fallbacks.tmac tmac/refer-me.tmac tmac/refer-ms.tmac tmac/troffrc tmac/troffrc-end tmac/trans.tmac tmac/en.tmac tmac/hyphen.en tmac/hyphenex.en tmac/es.tmac tmac/hyphen.es tmac/fr.tmac tmac/hyphen.fr tmac/it.tmac tmac/hyphen.it tmac/pl.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/hyphen.pl tmac/ru.tmac tmac/hyphen.ru tmac/sv.tmac tmac/hyphen.sv tmac/de.tmac tmac/den.tmac tmac/hyphen.det tmac/hyphen.den tmac/cs.tmac tmac/hyphen.cs tmac/hyphenex.cs tmac/ja.tmac tmac/zh.tmac tmac/an.tmac tmac/s.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/mm/refer-mm.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 doc/pic.html '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/man/man1'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/chem/chem.1 contrib/eqn2graph/eqn2graph.1 contrib/gdiffmk/gdiffmk.1 contrib/glilypond/glilypond.1 contrib/gperl/gperl.1 contrib/gpinyin/gpinyin.1 contrib/grap2graph/grap2graph.1 contrib/mm/mmroff.1 contrib/pic2graph/pic2graph.1 src/devices/grodvi/grodvi.1 src/devices/grohtml/grohtml.1 src/devices/grolbp/grolbp.1 src/devices/grolj4/grolj4.1 src/devices/gropdf/gropdf.1 src/devices/grops/grops.1 src/devices/grotty/grotty.1 src/devices/xditview/gxditview.1 src/preproc/preconv/preconv.1 src/roff/groff/groff.1 src/utils/addftinfo/addftinfo.1 src/utils/afmtodit/afmtodit.1 src/utils/grog/grog.1 src/utils/hpftodit/hpftodit.1 src/utils/lkbib/lkbib.1 src/utils/pdfmom/pdfmom.1 src/utils/pfbtops/pfbtops.1 src/utils/tfmtodit/tfmtodit.1 src/utils/xtotroff/xtotroff.1 src/preproc/eqn/eqn.1 src/preproc/eqn/neqn.1 src/preproc/grn/grn.1 src/preproc/pic/pic.1 src/preproc/refer/refer.1 src/preproc/soelim/soelim.1 src/preproc/tbl/tbl.1 src/roff/nroff/nroff.1 src/roff/troff/troff.1 src/utils/indxbib/indxbib.1 src/utils/lookbib/lookbib.1 '/home/branden/share/man/man1'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/man/man5'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 man/groff_font.5 man/groff_out.5 man/groff_tmac.5 '/home/branden/share/man/man5'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/man/man7'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/hdtbl/groff_hdtbl.7 contrib/mm/groff_mm.7 contrib/mm/groff_mmse.7 contrib/mom/groff_mom.7 contrib/rfc1345/groff_rfc1345.7 man/groff_char.7 man/groff_diff.7 man/groff.7 man/roff.7 tmac/groff_ms.7 tmac/groff_man.7 tmac/groff_man_style.7 tmac/groff_me.7 tmac/groff_mdoc.7 tmac/groff_trace.7 tmac/groff_www.7 '/home/branden/share/man/man7'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html/mom'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/mom/momdoc/stylesheet.css contrib/mom/momdoc/appendices.html contrib/mom/momdoc/color.html contrib/mom/momdoc/cover.html contrib/mom/momdoc/definitions.html contrib/mom/momdoc/docelement.html contrib/mom/momdoc/docprocessing.html contrib/mom/momdoc/goodies.html contrib/mom/momdoc/graphical.html contrib/mom/momdoc/headfootpage.html contrib/mom/momdoc/images.html contrib/mom/momdoc/inlines.html contrib/mom/momdoc/intro.html contrib/mom/momdoc/letters.html contrib/mom/momdoc/macrolist.html contrib/mom/momdoc/rectoverso.html contrib/mom/momdoc/refer.html contrib/mom/momdoc/reserved.html contrib/mom/momdoc/tables-of-contents.html contrib/mom/momdoc/toc.html contrib/mom/momdoc/typesetting.html contrib/mom/momdoc/using.html contrib/mom/momdoc/version-2.html '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html/mom'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlj4'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devlj4/DESC '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devlj4'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devps'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 font/devps/DESC font/devps/prologue font/devps/freeeuro.pfa font/devps/zapfdr.pfa font/devps/symbolsl.pfa '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/font/devps'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 doc/webpage.html doc/webpage.ps doc/grnexmpl.ps '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/pdf'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 doc/automake.pdf doc/groff-man-pages.pdf doc/ms.pdf doc/pic.pdf doc/groff-pdf-features.pdf '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/pdf'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/hdtbl'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/hdtbl/examples/fonts_n.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/fonts_x.roff contrib/hdtbl/examples/chess_board.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_boxes.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_nested_tables.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_table_cells.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/color_transitions.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/col_rowspan_colors.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/fonts_n.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/fonts_x.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/mixed_pickles.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/rainbow.ps contrib/hdtbl/examples/short_reference.ps doc/gnu.eps '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/hdtbl'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/mom'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/mom/examples/letter.pdf contrib/mom/examples/mom-pdf.pdf contrib/mom/examples/mon_premier_doc.pdf contrib/mom/examples/sample_docs.pdf contrib/mom/examples/slide-demo.pdf contrib/mom/examples/copyright-default.pdf contrib/mom/examples/copyright-chapter.pdf contrib/mom/examples/typesetting.pdf '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/mom'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 doc/meref.ps doc/meintro.ps doc/meintro_fr.ps doc/groff-man-pages.utf8.txt doc/meintro.me doc/meintro_fr.me doc/meref.me doc/ms.ms '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/sboxes/msboxes.ms '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/pdf'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 contrib/sboxes/msboxes.pdf '/home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/pdf'
 /home/branden/bin/mkdir -p '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
 /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 tmac/www.tmac '/home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac'
make  install-data-hook
make[4]: Entering directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
for f in mom-pdf.pdf; do \
  rm -f /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/pdf/$f; \
  ln -s /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/mom/$f /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/pdf/$f; \
done
cd doc \
&& for f in `ls pic*.html`; do \
  rm -f /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html/$f; \
  /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 $f /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html/$f; \
done
test -d /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html/img \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html/img
rm -f /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html/img/pic*
/home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 doc/img/pic* \
  /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/html/img
for d in doc /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/doc; do \
  if test -f "$d/gnu.eps"; then \
    rm -f /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/gnu.eps; \
    /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 \
      $d/gnu.eps /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/gnu.eps; \
    break; \
  fi; \
done
for d in doc /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/doc; do \
  if test -f "$d/gnu.png"; then \
    rm -f /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/gnu.png; \
    /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 \
      $d/gnu.png /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/gnu.png; \
    break; \
  fi; \
done
cd doc \
&& for f in `ls webpage*.html`; do \
  rm -f /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/$f; \
  /home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 $f /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/$f; \
done
test -d /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/img \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/img
rm -f \
  /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/img/webpage*
/home/branden/bin/install -c -m 644 doc/img/webpage* \
  /home/branden/share/doc/groff-1.25.0/examples/img
if test "no" = "yes"; then \
  if test -n ""; then \
    if test -f /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/s.tmac -a -n "`if test no = yes; then for i in  ""; do case "$i" in s) echo g;; esac; done; fi`"; \
    then \
      mv /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/s.tmac \
         /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/`if test no = yes; then for i in  ""; do case "$i" in s) echo g;; esac; done; fi`s.tmac; \
    fi; \
    if test -f /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/an.tmac -a -n "`if test no = yes; then for i in  ""; do case "$i" in an) echo g;; esac; done; fi`"; \
    then \
      mv /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/an.tmac \
         /home/branden/share/groff/1.25.0/tmac/`if test no = yes; then for i in  ""; do case "$i" in an) echo g;; esac; done; fi`an.tmac; \
    fi; \
  fi; \
fi
cd /home/branden/share/groff; \
  rm -f current; \
  ln -s 1.25.0 current
test -d /home/branden/share/groff/site-font \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/share/groff/site-font
test -d /home/branden/lib/groff/site-tmac \
  || /bin/bash /tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2/build-aux/install-sh -d /home/branden/lib/groff/site-tmac
make[4]: Leaving directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
make[3]: Leaving directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
make[2]: Leaving directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
make[1]: Leaving directory '/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2'
## 2026-08-23 09:06:12 bash-5.1 [8] {0} (0) branden@illithid:/tmp/rando/groff-1.25.0.rc2 !986$

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Branden,

> Date: 2026-08-23 09:16:22-0500
> From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
>
> Hi Alex,
> 
> At 2026-08-23T15:55:29+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > > From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
> > > > Do you know what's wrong?
> > > 
> > > More or less. It turns out to be damned hard to balance the
> > > requirements of (1) Automake maintainer mode; (2) building from Git
> > > repository checkouts; and (3) building from distribution archives.
> > > Bruno Haible has been helpful in finding scenarios that don't work.
> > > 
> > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-08/msg00039.html
> > 
> > Hmmmm, now it rings a bell.  bootstrap said something about configure
> > with maintainer mode, but I ignored that, since I had never used
> > maintainer mode.
> 
> Right.  I introduced that very recently during the RCs for 1.25.0,
> because it seemed necessary.  But as shown, Bruno has proposed patches
> ripping it back out.
> 
> I'm pretty frustrated with Automake's lack of explicit support for
> building from Git working copies.  Or maybe it's brilliantly documented
> somewhere I haven't seen yet...

I dislike autotools for that and other reasons.  For groff(1), writing
a portable hand-written Makefile might be too hard to write.  But for
the man-pages, I love the hand-written Makefile we have.  I'm still
waiting for GNU Make to make a new release, and then be able to get rid
of the mandatory -R, but other than that, it works quite nicely.

[...]
> I do _not_ get such errors.  Shell session attached.
> 
> ...but I'm building _from the release candidate archive_, as I advised
> you to do.

Yup; I don't like using tarballs.  It's much easier to just check out
git HEAD.  :)

> > > Build finished successfully for me in about 60 seconds.
> > 
> > Out of curiosity, where did you get those timestamps from?  Does your
> > history file store them?
> 
> Yes.  That's simply the output of Bash's "history" built-in.  I chopped
> off the command numbers and removed irrelevancies like "ls".

Oh, I don't have that!

	$ history | tail -n1
	 1997  history | tail -n1

After checking `help history`, I now realize it has a HISTTIMEFORMAT
variable for doing that.

I've added it now to my bashrc:

	alx@devuan:~/src/alx/config/main$ git show -U0
	commit 9b64c78f797fc3abab83148b24143402a5d2a839 (HEAD -> main)
	Author: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
	Date:   2026-08-23 16:53:59 +0200

	    bash: HISTTIMEFORMAT: Add variable
	    
	    Signed-off-by: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>

	diff --git a/etc/bash.bashrc b/etc/bash.bashrc
	index af974d211e14..f2f7772c8e51 100644
	--- a/etc/bash.bashrc
	+++ b/etc/bash.bashrc
	@@ -2,0 +3 @@ export GPG_TTY="$(tty)";
	+export HISTTIMEFORMAT="%F %T%z ";

I've been wanting that for a long long time!  It's good to know it
exists.  :)

> > Using groff from git HEAD, I see the list as this:
> > 
> > 	$ cat ls.man 
> > 	.TH a s d f
> > 	.SH test
> > 	foo
> > 	.LS
> > 	.IP \[bu] 3
> > 	bar
> > 	.IP \[bu]
> > 	baz
> > 	.LS
> > 	.P
> > 	qwe
> > 	$ /opt/local/gnu/groff/20260823_master/bin/groff -man -Tutf8 ./ls.man 
> > 	a(s)                                                                        a(s)
> > 
> > 	test
> > 	     foo
> > 
> > 	     •  bar
> > 
> > 	     •  baz
> > 
> > 	     qwe
> > 
> > 	f                                       d                                   a(s)
> > 
> > Is this intended?  I thought it would imply PD 0.
> 
> Yes, it's intended.  If you want the list compact, you have to say so.
> 
> Also, you need to say what kind of list you're presenting.
> 
> groff_man(7):
>      .LS type [compactness [indentation]]
>             (since groff 1.25) Start (or open) a list.  type is one of
>             “definition”, “enumerated”, or “itemized”.  compactness is a
>             Boolean value directing suppression of inter‐paragraph
>             spacing between list items.  indentation specifies an
>             indentation amount for the body of each list item; it is
>             then unnecessary to specify this argument to the list item
>             macros.  Use IP with a mark argument to represent an
>             itemized or enumerated list item, and TP for a definition
>             list item.  Use IP without arguments to associate successive
>             paragraphs with an existing list item; to these, inter‐
>             paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.
> 
>      .LE    (since groff 1.25) End (or close) the most recent open list.
> 
> > 	.LS
> 
> Say instead:
> 
> .LS itemized 1

Oh, yeah, I forgot to RTFM.  :-)

Here's an interesting thing (it might be okay, just noting it):

	diff --git i/man/man5/tunables.conf.5 w/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
	index 91bb6b81cb85..835c409eb074 100644
	--- i/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
	+++ w/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
	@@ -89,9 +89,10 @@ .SS Filters
	 Filters limit the tunables following it.
	 The effects of a filter are terminated by
	 any of the following:
	+.P
	+.LS itemized 1
	 .IP \[bu] 3
	 The end of the file.
	-.PD 0
	 .IP \[bu]
	 The end of an included file.
	 .IP \[bu]
	@@ -100,7 +101,7 @@ .SS Filters
	 directive.
	 .IP \[bu]
	 A new (possibly empty) filter.
	-.PD
	+.LE
	 .P
	 The syntax is:
	 .P

I had to add that P paragraph so that there's a blank before the list.
That's a bit unusual, since that would technically be an empty
paragraph; or maybe we can consider that paragraph to be the entire
list, but that's unusual in man(7).  That said, I'm fine with that.

What do you think?


Cheers,
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[G. Branden Robinson]

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[looping in groff list because Alex brought to my attention an item of
work on the new man(7) `LS` and `LE` macros that needs to be done]

Hi Alex,

At 2026-08-23T17:06:16+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > Date: 2026-08-23 09:16:22-0500
> > From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
> > At 2026-08-23T15:55:29+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > > > From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
> > > > > Do you know what's wrong?
> > > > More or less. It turns out to be damned hard to balance the
> > > > requirements of (1) Automake maintainer mode; (2) building from
> > > > Git repository checkouts; and (3) building from distribution
> > > > archives.  Bruno Haible has been helpful in finding scenarios
> > > > that don't work.
> > > > 
> > > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-08/msg00039.html
> > > 
> > > Hmmmm, now it rings a bell.  bootstrap said something about
> > > configure with maintainer mode, but I ignored that, since I had
> > > never used maintainer mode.
> > 
> > Right.  I introduced that very recently during the RCs for 1.25.0,
> > because it seemed necessary.  But as shown, Bruno has proposed
> > patches ripping it back out.
> > 
> > I'm pretty frustrated with Automake's lack of explicit support for
> > building from Git working copies.  Or maybe it's brilliantly
> > documented somewhere I haven't seen yet...
> 
> I dislike autotools for that and other reasons.

Autoconf, Automake, and Libtool, the collective "autotools", are all
strongly distinguishable in purpose.  Autoconf is a brilliant idea, very
well executed.  I suspect that many of its its detractors possess a
constellation of negative traits:

1.  They're not terribly competent at writing portable shell scripts;
2.  they refuse to understand the very simple principle of operation
    of the m4 macro language; and
3.  they refuse to believe that the variety of possible deployment
    environments is as wide as it is.

To be fair, employers in the tech sector tend to pursue the correction
of none of these flaws.  Shell scripting is not widely recognized as
being as demanding a discipline as it is, I suspect because a whole
generation of engineering managers got hired from Microsoft shops; these
people understood what an MS-DOS batch file was, and grasped that a Unix
shell script was the analogue.  What do you use batch files for?  How
hard could any of this be?  That cohort of managers is likely in
retirement now, but they passed their "wisdom" to their successors via
the usual channels through which managerial class expertise transmits.

Well, it turns out that statically parsing a POSIX shell script is not a
decidable problem.[1]

When you find a manager who understands what that _means_, let alone
grasps its implications, mark your calendar.

Ambitious managers reject such claims outright.  They understand that
their personal advancement demands profession of the Friedman Doctrine:
the social responsibility of the firm is to deliver value (returns) to
shareholders.  Thus, _all_ problems are decidable--all that is required
is sufficient application of one's Nietzschean Will.

A software engineer attends school to learn complexity theory, and then
is paid a salary in the workforce to forget it.

I was intimidated by the idea of Autoconf macros at first.  I needn't
have been.  I already had many years of shell scripting under my belt,
and after reading the brief, original m4 paper in Volume 2 of the
Version 7 Unix Programmer's Manual,[2] I understood what was going on
with the brackets.

The mistakes I make when writing Autoconf macros are overwhelmingly
logic errors, not struggles with syntax.

I'm slowly warming to Automake.  I get what it's trying to do.  I think
it needs better introductory documentation.

Libtool is a terrifying solution to a terrifying problem.  I'm glad I'll
never have to learn anything about it unless I grow the courage to
maintain a shared library.

I've encountered CMake.  It burned me far worse than the Autotools ever
have.  In my view, rather than being a toolkit with which you can manage
your project's build system to your own specifications--meaning that you
can _understand_ it--it's a gigantic, baroque DWIM engine that permits a
software project to outsource their build system engineering to CMake's
maintainers.

As always with outsourcing, that'll work great--and managers will love
it--until it doesn't.

And when it doesn't, people will stumble around, blinking and wondering
where to find the expertise they'll need.

> For groff(1), writing a portable hand-written Makefile might be too
> hard to write.

I saw what we had before.  Bertrand Garrigues did us an unquestionable
service in porting groff to Automake back in 2013/4.

> But for the man-pages, I love the hand-written Makefile we have.

I, too, love sticking with pure make(1) anywhere I can.  POSIX Issue 8
make(1) really allows the tool to shine.

I nurse a glimmer of hope that the *BSD Make people can be pressured/
bribed/shamed into supporting pattern rules at long last, and then we'll
finally get as close to world peace as is possible.

https://cgit.git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/doc/doc.am?h=1.24.1#n310

That's an exhibit of an extremely stupid, and extremely old, problem
that I defy any BSD partisan to defend.

> I'm still waiting for GNU Make to make a new release, and then be able
> to get rid of the mandatory -R, but other than that, it works quite
> nicely.

Hmm, no release since 4.4 on Halloween 2022.  Yeah, they might be due.

> Yup; I don't like using tarballs.  It's much easier to just check out
> git HEAD.  :)

Yes, but the tarballs get tested in a greater diversity of environments.
While I keep git HEAD "green"--I don't "git push" unless "make
distcheck" runs successfully--that applies only to my personal
development environment.  groff doesn't have a CI infrastructure.

The build system is the thing that consistently gives us the most pain
when trying to firm up a release.  So right now you are pulling on HEAD
at its most fragile, ironically.  The code quality should be good, _if_
you can get the build to completion.

> > > > Build finished successfully for me in about 60 seconds.
> > > 
> > > Out of curiosity, where did you get those timestamps from?  Does
> > > your history file store them?
> > 
> > Yes.  That's simply the output of Bash's "history" built-in.  I
> > chopped off the command numbers and removed irrelevancies like "ls".
> 
> Oh, I don't have that!
> 
> 	$ history | tail -n1
> 	 1997  history | tail -n1
> 
> After checking `help history`, I now realize it has a HISTTIMEFORMAT
> variable for doing that.

Ah!  I completely forgot that I had customized that in my .bashrc.

> I've been wanting that for a long long time!  It's good to know it
> exists.  :)

Yup.  Lots of goodies in Bash.

> Oh, yeah, I forgot to RTFM.  :-)
> 
> Here's an interesting thing (it might be okay, just noting it):
> 
> 	diff --git i/man/man5/tunables.conf.5 w/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
> 	index 91bb6b81cb85..835c409eb074 100644
> 	--- i/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
> 	+++ w/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
> 	@@ -89,9 +89,10 @@ .SS Filters
> 	 Filters limit the tunables following it.
> 	 The effects of a filter are terminated by
> 	 any of the following:
> 	+.P
> 	+.LS itemized 1
> 	 .IP \[bu] 3
> 	 The end of the file.
> 	-.PD 0
> 	 .IP \[bu]
> 	 The end of an included file.
> 	 .IP \[bu]
> 	@@ -100,7 +101,7 @@ .SS Filters
> 	 directive.
> 	 .IP \[bu]
> 	 A new (possibly empty) filter.
> 	-.PD
> 	+.LE
> 	 .P
> 	 The syntax is:
> 	 .P
> 
> I had to add that P paragraph so that there's a blank before the list.
> That's a bit unusual, since that would technically be an empty
> paragraph; or maybe we can consider that paragraph to be the entire
> list, but that's unusual in man(7).  That said, I'm fine with that.
> 
> What do you think?

I agree that it looks a little funny; if one imagines the `LS` call as
not being there at all, it looks truly redundant, and "mandoc -T lint"
will likely complain about it.

However, you have to remember that *roff documents are not truly
block-structured.  mandoc(1) really badly wants them to be, so it
pretends that they are, and that sometimes leads it to jump through
hoops...or to arguments between groff and mandoc maintainers.  ;-)

In *roffs, paragraphing macros mean "break for paragraph here", not
"paragraph opens here".

So, in the foregoing, given that you _want_ inter-paragraph spacing
before you start the compact list, the "isolated" `P` makes perfect
sense.  I think it would be unwise to force a compact list to not be
compact prior to its first item, because doing that would foreclose the
following sort of layout.

(But I see a complementary problem.)

$ cat ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
.TH foo 1 2026-08-23 "groff test suite"
.SH Name
foo \- frobnicate a bar
.SH Description
This is my man page.
There are many like it,
but this one is mine.
People should read more about
.LS itemized 1 4n
.IP \[bu]
bash
.IP \[bu]
m4
.IP \[bu]
make
.P
.LE
and learn what these tools can do for them.

$ nroff -rLL=72n -man ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
foo(1)                   General Commands Manual                  foo(1)

Name
     foo - frobnicate a bar

Description
     This is my man page.  There are many like it, but this one is mine.
     People should read more about
     •   bash
     •   m4
     •   make

     and learn what these tools can do for them.

groff test suite               2026‐08‐23                         foo(1)

So there is a post-compact list space challenge.  You don't want an
"empty" `IP` call prior to the `LE`--that will cause unwanted
indentation of "and learn...".

Maybe `LE` needs to accept an argument applying post-list space (and
suppress it if the argument absent).

And maybe `LS` needs to accept another argument applying pre-list space
(and suppress it if the argument is absent).

I'll dig into this.  I might switch those defaults around; the objective
is to have `LS` and `LE` slot into existing man(7) documents as
unobtrusively as possible.  As the "NEWS" file says:

   Because these macros format no text, documents employing them risk no
   damage to their content if the formatter does not support them.  A
   man(7) document author can choose either to transition to these
   macros, to manage list "compactness" and item indentation with
   existing man(7) package facilities, or to employ both approaches.

Another governing principle is "man(7) document authors should not have
to use *roff requests".[3]

groff_man_style(7):

   Portability
...
     In roff systems, elemental functions called requests and escape
     sequences control formatting operations.  A request appears on a
     control line.  An escape sequence starts with a backslash (\) and
     can appear almost anywhere.  However, use of roff requests (apart
     from the empty request “.”) risks poor rendering when a page is
     processed by non‐roff formatters that attempt to interpret page
     sources.  (Historically, this was commonly attempted for HTML
     conversion.)  Many of these programs don’t interpret the full roff
     language (let alone extensions): they may be incapable of handling
     numeric expressions, control structures, or register, string, and
     macro definitions, causing a document’s contents to be omitted or
     presented incomprehensibly.  If your document uses formatter
     requests, or escape sequences not shown below, it accepts
     responsibility for restoring formatter state to what the man macro
     package expects.

So I'll see what I can figure out with those lodestars in sight.

An idea involving only compact lists and `sp` and `ns` requests is
forming already.  I think I might profitably use them in the `LS` and
`LE` macro definitions, respectively.

The foregoing example will likely spawn an automated test.

Thanks for putting groff pre-1.25 to the test!

Regards,
Branden

[1] https://www.irif.fr/~treinen/publi/slides/minidebconf18.pdf
[2] https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_attunix7thersManualSeventhEditionVol21983_34117955

[3] There are exceptional circumstances, like overcoming problems that
    AT&T troff and man(7) lacked mechanisms for solving, or providing
    "fallbacks" for pic(1) or eqn(1) input.  And I use `br` and `ne`
    requests in groff's man pages for "stranded line management", a
    problem that affects only paginated documents--that's a problem
    mandoc(1) is explicitly designed not to ever deal with.

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Branden,

> Date: 2026-08-23 11:44:51-0500
> From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
>
> [looping in groff list because Alex brought to my attention an item of
> work on the new man(7) `LS` and `LE` macros that needs to be done]
> 
> Hi Alex,
> 
> At 2026-08-23T17:06:16+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > > Date: 2026-08-23 09:16:22-0500
> > > From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
> > > At 2026-08-23T15:55:29+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > > > > From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
> > > > > > Do you know what's wrong?
> > > > > More or less. It turns out to be damned hard to balance the
> > > > > requirements of (1) Automake maintainer mode; (2) building from
> > > > > Git repository checkouts; and (3) building from distribution
> > > > > archives.  Bruno Haible has been helpful in finding scenarios
> > > > > that don't work.
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-08/msg00039.html
> > > > 
> > > > Hmmmm, now it rings a bell.  bootstrap said something about
> > > > configure with maintainer mode, but I ignored that, since I had
> > > > never used maintainer mode.
> > > 
> > > Right.  I introduced that very recently during the RCs for 1.25.0,
> > > because it seemed necessary.  But as shown, Bruno has proposed
> > > patches ripping it back out.
> > > 
> > > I'm pretty frustrated with Automake's lack of explicit support for
> > > building from Git working copies.  Or maybe it's brilliantly
> > > documented somewhere I haven't seen yet...
> > 
> > I dislike autotools for that and other reasons.
> 
> Autoconf, Automake, and Libtool, the collective "autotools", are all
> strongly distinguishable in purpose.

I guess if you deal with them enough, you get to distinguish them.
In shadow-utils, where we have an autotools-based build system, I
consistently avoid to learn it.  I leave it up to the other maintainers
and the distro maintainers to keep it working.  I only report the issues
to them.  To me, it'd be easier to wipe it all and write a Makefile from
scratch than learning the tools.  The day I have to maintain that, I'll
probably do so.  But distro maintainers don't want that, and so they
keep helping maintain it.

> Autoconf is a brilliant idea, very
> well executed.  I suspect that many of its its detractors possess a
> constellation of negative traits:
> 
> 1.  They're not terribly competent at writing portable shell scripts;

I believe I'm quite competent writing shell scripts.  :)

> 2.  they refuse to understand the very simple principle of operation
>     of the m4 macro language; and

I have the 2nd negative trait, though.

> 3.  they refuse to believe that the variety of possible deployment
>     environments is as wide as it is.

I acknowledge this.  However, some people refuse to believe that
hand-crafted makefiles can also handle quite different environments too.
I believe makefiles can do that just fine.  It's a matter of how much
makefile code you write.

In the Linux man-pages project, we have 120 kB of makefiles.

	$ find share/mk/ -type f | xargs wc -c GNUmakefile | tail -n1
	119125 total

I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might be
a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.

Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
them enough).

[...]
> 
> I've encountered CMake.  It burned me far worse than the Autotools ever
> have.  In my view, rather than being a toolkit with which you can manage
> your project's build system to your own specifications--meaning that you
> can _understand_ it--it's a gigantic, baroque DWIM engine that permits a
> software project to outsource their build system engineering to CMake's
> maintainers.

Oh, yeah, I agree with everyone here.  CMake is way worse than
autotools.  autotools is the least evil of the non-pure-makefile build
systems.

> As always with outsourcing, that'll work great--and managers will love
> it--until it doesn't.
> 
> And when it doesn't, people will stumble around, blinking and wondering
> where to find the expertise they'll need.
> 
> > For groff(1), writing a portable hand-written Makefile might be too
> > hard to write.
> 
> I saw what we had before.  Bertrand Garrigues did us an unquestionable
> service in porting groff to Automake back in 2013/4.
> 
> > But for the man-pages, I love the hand-written Makefile we have.
> 
> I, too, love sticking with pure make(1) anywhere I can.  POSIX Issue 8
> make(1) really allows the tool to shine.
> 
> I nurse a glimmer of hope that the *BSD Make people can be pressured/
> bribed/shamed into supporting pattern rules at long last, and then we'll
> finally get as close to world peace as is possible.
> 
> https://cgit.git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/doc/doc.am?h=1.24.1#n310
> 
> That's an exhibit of an extremely stupid, and extremely old, problem
> that I defy any BSD partisan to defend.
> 
> > I'm still waiting for GNU Make to make a new release, and then be able
> > to get rid of the mandatory -R, but other than that, it works quite
> > nicely.
> 
> Hmm, no release since 4.4 on Halloween 2022.  Yeah, they might be due.

Yup, I've been pinging Paul a few times in the last years.  But I gave
up last year.

> > Yup; I don't like using tarballs.  It's much easier to just check out
> > git HEAD.  :)
> 
> Yes, but the tarballs get tested in a greater diversity of environments.
> While I keep git HEAD "green"--I don't "git push" unless "make
> distcheck" runs successfully--that applies only to my personal
> development environment.  groff doesn't have a CI infrastructure.
> 
> The build system is the thing that consistently gives us the most pain
> when trying to firm up a release.  So right now you are pulling on HEAD
> at its most fragile, ironically.  The code quality should be good, _if_
> you can get the build to completion.

I'm happy to uncover those bugs; it's not a problem.

[...]
> > 	diff --git i/man/man5/tunables.conf.5 w/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
> > 	index 91bb6b81cb85..835c409eb074 100644
> > 	--- i/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
> > 	+++ w/man/man5/tunables.conf.5
> > 	@@ -89,9 +89,10 @@ .SS Filters
> > 	 Filters limit the tunables following it.
> > 	 The effects of a filter are terminated by
> > 	 any of the following:
> > 	+.P
> > 	+.LS itemized 1
> > 	 .IP \[bu] 3
> > 	 The end of the file.
> > 	-.PD 0
> > 	 .IP \[bu]
> > 	 The end of an included file.
> > 	 .IP \[bu]
> > 	@@ -100,7 +101,7 @@ .SS Filters
> > 	 directive.
> > 	 .IP \[bu]
> > 	 A new (possibly empty) filter.
> > 	-.PD
> > 	+.LE
> > 	 .P
> > 	 The syntax is:
> > 	 .P
> > 
> > I had to add that P paragraph so that there's a blank before the list.
> > That's a bit unusual, since that would technically be an empty
> > paragraph; or maybe we can consider that paragraph to be the entire
> > list, but that's unusual in man(7).  That said, I'm fine with that.
> > 
> > What do you think?
> 
> I agree that it looks a little funny; if one imagines the `LS` call as
> not being there at all, it looks truly redundant, and "mandoc -T lint"
> will likely complain about it.
> 
> However, you have to remember that *roff documents are not truly
> block-structured.  mandoc(1) really badly wants them to be, so it
> pretends that they are, and that sometimes leads it to jump through
> hoops...or to arguments between groff and mandoc maintainers.  ;-)
> 
> In *roffs, paragraphing macros mean "break for paragraph here", not
> "paragraph opens here".

True.

> So, in the foregoing, given that you _want_ inter-paragraph spacing
> before you start the compact list, the "isolated" `P` makes perfect
> sense.  I think it would be unwise to force a compact list to not be
> compact prior to its first item, because doing that would foreclose the
> following sort of layout.

Agree.

> (But I see a complementary problem.)
> 
> $ cat ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
> .TH foo 1 2026-08-23 "groff test suite"
> .SH Name
> foo \- frobnicate a bar
> .SH Description
> This is my man page.
> There are many like it,
> but this one is mine.
> People should read more about
> .LS itemized 1 4n
> .IP \[bu]
> bash
> .IP \[bu]
> m4
> .IP \[bu]
> make
> .P
> .LE

Why not this?:

	.LE
	.P

> and learn what these tools can do for them.
> 
> $ nroff -rLL=72n -man ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
> foo(1)                   General Commands Manual                  foo(1)
> 
> Name
>      foo - frobnicate a bar
> 
> Description
>      This is my man page.  There are many like it, but this one is mine.
>      People should read more about
>      •   bash
>      •   m4
>      •   make
> 
>      and learn what these tools can do for them.
> 
> groff test suite               2026‐08‐23                         foo(1)
> 
> So there is a post-compact list space challenge.  You don't want an
> "empty" `IP` call prior to the `LE`--that will cause unwanted
> indentation of "and learn...".

You might use compactness keywords:

	.LS itemized precompact

You could have 'precompact', 'postcompact', 'compact', and 'noncompact'
(feel free to use names that aren't so terrible).

> Maybe `LE` needs to accept an argument applying post-list space (and
> suppress it if the argument absent).
> 
> And maybe `LS` needs to accept another argument applying pre-list space
> (and suppress it if the argument is absent).
> 
> I'll dig into this.  I might switch those defaults around; the objective
> is to have `LS` and `LE` slot into existing man(7) documents as
> unobtrusively as possible.  As the "NEWS" file says:
> 
>    Because these macros format no text, documents employing them risk no
>    damage to their content if the formatter does not support them.  A
>    man(7) document author can choose either to transition to these
>    macros, to manage list "compactness" and item indentation with
>    existing man(7) package facilities, or to employ both approaches.
> 
> Another governing principle is "man(7) document authors should not have
> to use *roff requests".[3]
> 
> groff_man_style(7):
> 
>    Portability
> ...
>      In roff systems, elemental functions called requests and escape
>      sequences control formatting operations.  A request appears on a
>      control line.  An escape sequence starts with a backslash (\) and
>      can appear almost anywhere.  However, use of roff requests (apart
>      from the empty request “.”) risks poor rendering when a page is
>      processed by non‐roff formatters that attempt to interpret page
>      sources.  (Historically, this was commonly attempted for HTML
>      conversion.)  Many of these programs don’t interpret the full roff
>      language (let alone extensions): they may be incapable of handling
>      numeric expressions, control structures, or register, string, and
>      macro definitions, causing a document’s contents to be omitted or
>      presented incomprehensibly.  If your document uses formatter
>      requests, or escape sequences not shown below, it accepts
>      responsibility for restoring formatter state to what the man macro
>      package expects.
> 
> So I'll see what I can figure out with those lodestars in sight.
> 
> An idea involving only compact lists and `sp` and `ns` requests is
> forming already.  I think I might profitably use them in the `LS` and
> `LE` macro definitions, respectively.
> 
> The foregoing example will likely spawn an automated test.
> 
> Thanks for putting groff pre-1.25 to the test!

:-)


Have a lovely night!
Alex

> 
> Regards,
> Branden
> 
> [1] https://www.irif.fr/~treinen/publi/slides/minidebconf18.pdf
> [2] https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_attunix7thersManualSeventhEditionVol21983_34117955
> 
> [3] There are exceptional circumstances, like overcoming problems that
>     AT&T troff and man(7) lacked mechanisms for solving, or providing
>     "fallbacks" for pic(1) or eqn(1) input.  And I use `br` and `ne`
>     requests in groff's man pages for "stranded line management", a
>     problem that affects only paginated documents--that's a problem
>     mandoc(1) is explicitly designed not to ever deal with.



-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[G. Branden Robinson]

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Hi Alex,

At 2026-08-23T21:30:53+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > Date: 2026-08-23 11:44:51-0500
> > From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
> >
> > [looping in groff list because Alex brought to my attention an item
> > of work on the new man(7) `LS` and `LE` macros that needs to be
> > done]
> > At 2026-08-23T17:06:16+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > > I dislike autotools for that and other reasons.
> > 
> > Autoconf, Automake, and Libtool, the collective "autotools", are all
> > strongly distinguishable in purpose.
> 
> I guess if you deal with them enough, you get to distinguish them.  In
> shadow-utils, where we have an autotools-based build system, I
> consistently avoid to learn it.  I leave it up to the other
> maintainers and the distro maintainers to keep it working.  I only
> report the issues to them.  To me, it'd be easier to wipe it all and
> write a Makefile from scratch than learning the tools.  The day I have
> to maintain that, I'll probably do so.  But distro maintainers don't
> want that, and so they keep helping maintain it.

Sometimes success looks like that.  :)

> > Autoconf is a brilliant idea, very well executed.  I suspect that
> > many of its its detractors possess a constellation of negative
> > traits:
> > 
> > 1.  They're not terribly competent at writing portable shell
> >     scripts;
> 
> I believe I'm quite competent writing shell scripts.  :)

From what I've seen, I think you're right.  :)
> 
> > 2.  they refuse to understand the very simple principle of operation
> >     of the m4 macro language; and
> 
> I have the 2nd negative trait, though.

Nobody has time to learn everything.  But I take a dim view of refusal
to learn things for bad reasons.  It can be hard to judge, and for sure
to know exactly what a person's reasons are, because even if they don't
misrepresent those reasons to others, they might lack the self-awareness
necessary to know why they don't do things.

For example, when I procrastinate a task, I often find myself trying to
figure out post facto why I did so, after I get around to doing it.

Often, I expect that a task will be more difficult than it turns out to
be.  I let myself get unnecessarily daunted.

But, speaking only for myself, getting the "gist" of a nearly pure macro
expansion engine like m4 was extremely useful in a way that I didn't
appreciate at the time, because the way I learned to think about m4
ended up helping me to understand how *roff works.  *roff is a very
_impure_ macro expansion engine.  Lots of extra stuff piled on.  :)

Doug McIlroy has a lovely presentation.

https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~doug/barem4.m4

For those who fear to read M4 even when commented, the concepts are also
discussed in this Computer History Museum oral history interview.

https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2019/11/102740539-05-01-acc.pdf

> > 3.  they refuse to believe that the variety of possible deployment
> >     environments is as wide as it is.
> 
> I acknowledge this.  However, some people refuse to believe that
> hand-crafted makefiles can also handle quite different environments
> too.  I believe makefiles can do that just fine.  It's a matter of how
> much makefile code you write.

I wouldn't have ventured an opinion either way; I'm confident GNU Make
is up to the challenge, but less sure about POSIX Issue 8 make(1).

> In the Linux man-pages project, we have 120 kB of makefiles.
> 
> 	$ find share/mk/ -type f | xargs wc -c GNUmakefile | tail -n1
> 	119125 total
> 
> I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
> of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might
> be a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.

I was going to venture that groff's Automake files added up to much less
than that.  It's less--but not "much".

$ wc -c $(find -name "*.am" | grep -v gnulib | sort)
 31886 ./Makefile.am
  1245 ./arch/mingw/mingw.am
  1295 ./arch/misc/misc.am
  3554 ./contrib/chem/chem.am
  1324 ./contrib/eqn2graph/eqn2graph.am
  2247 ./contrib/gdiffmk/gdiffmk.am
  2400 ./contrib/glilypond/glilypond.am
  1583 ./contrib/gperl/gperl.am
  1842 ./contrib/gpinyin/gpinyin.am
  1331 ./contrib/grap2graph/grap2graph.am
  4559 ./contrib/hdtbl/hdtbl.am
  1046 ./contrib/install-font/install-font.am
  6150 ./contrib/mm/mm.am
  5966 ./contrib/mom/mom.am
  1312 ./contrib/pic2graph/pic2graph.am
  1281 ./contrib/rfc1345/rfc1345.am
  2646 ./contrib/sboxes/sboxes.am
 31579 ./doc/doc.am
  2210 ./font/devX100-12/devX100-12.am
  2089 ./font/devX100/devX100.am
  2175 ./font/devX75-12/devX75-12.am
  2056 ./font/devX75/devX75.am
  1757 ./font/devascii/devascii.am
  2858 ./font/devdvi/devdvi.am
  2496 ./font/devhtml/devhtml.am
  1781 ./font/devlatin1/devlatin1.am
  1739 ./font/devlbp/devlbp.am
  2956 ./font/devlj4/devlj4.am
  8531 ./font/devpdf/devpdf.am
  5580 ./font/devps/devps.am
  2387 ./font/devutf8/devutf8.am
  1047 ./font/scripts/scripts.am
  1331 ./man/man.am
  1290 ./src/devices/grodvi/grodvi.am
  1597 ./src/devices/grohtml/grohtml.am
  1357 ./src/devices/grolbp/grolbp.am
  1295 ./src/devices/grolj4/grolj4.am
  2232 ./src/devices/gropdf/gropdf.am
  1637 ./src/devices/grops/grops.am
  1589 ./src/devices/grotty/grotty.am
  4372 ./src/devices/xditview/xditview.am
  1508 ./src/include/include.am
  1048 ./src/libs/libbib/libbib.am
   987 ./src/libs/libdriver/libdriver.am
  3625 ./src/libs/libgroff/libgroff.am
  1150 ./src/libs/libxutil/libxutil.am
  3571 ./src/preproc/eqn/eqn.am
  1398 ./src/preproc/grn/grn.am
  1149 ./src/preproc/html/html.am
  2689 ./src/preproc/pic/pic.am
  1356 ./src/preproc/preconv/preconv.am
  2838 ./src/preproc/refer/refer.am
  1317 ./src/preproc/soelim/soelim.am
  2785 ./src/preproc/tbl/tbl.am
  9555 ./src/roff/groff/groff.am
  1528 ./src/roff/nroff/nroff.am
  2112 ./src/roff/troff/troff.am
  1227 ./src/utils/addftinfo/addftinfo.am
  1686 ./src/utils/afmtodit/afmtodit.am
  1758 ./src/utils/grog/grog.am
  1033 ./src/utils/hpftodit/hpftodit.am
  2085 ./src/utils/indxbib/indxbib.am
  1109 ./src/utils/lkbib/lkbib.am
  1098 ./src/utils/lookbib/lookbib.am
  1443 ./src/utils/pdfmom/pdfmom.am
  1200 ./src/utils/pfbtops/pfbtops.am
  1027 ./src/utils/tfmtodit/tfmtodit.am
  1468 ./src/utils/xtotroff/xtotroff.am
 15018 ./tmac/tmac.am
228376 total

228kB is an order of magnitude higher than I'd have guessed.  But I
should have known better--from bitter experience I should have intuited
that the "doc.am" beast alone defeats any such notion.

That's always the most troublesome of our Automake scripts, because we
use the groff that we build to produce further artifacts.  It therefore
functions in part as an acceptance test.

> Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
> fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
> them enough).

Apart from needing an awareness of Automake's special variable names,
which employ a naming scheme that one tends to notice, I can almost
always get by writing an Automake script using only "make(1) brain",
which is one reason I've been such crap at actually _learning_ Automake.

I more often have problems writing Automake scripts that will maintain
portability between GNU Make and BSD Make, which is a constraint
entirely of my own choosing.

> Oh, yeah, I agree with everyone here.  CMake is way worse than
> autotools.  autotools is the least evil of the non-pure-makefile build
> systems.

I'm curious to hear your opinion of meson/ninja.

> > Hmm, no release since 4.4 on Halloween 2022.  Yeah, they might be
> > due.
> 
> Yup, I've been pinging Paul a few times in the last years.  But I gave
> up last year.

I don't begrudge Paul D. Smith a victory lap/vacation after the triumph
of POSIX Issue 8 blessing so many GNU Make extensions.  :)

But each one justified itself more than adequately.

This document remains useful.

https://gist.github.com/Earnestly/29deee4f18346da6630ed1df760f1590

> > Yes, but the tarballs get tested in a greater diversity of
> > environments.  While I keep git HEAD "green"--I don't "git push"
> > unless "make distcheck" runs successfully--that applies only to my
> > personal development environment.  groff doesn't have a CI
> > infrastructure.
> > 
> > The build system is the thing that consistently gives us the most
> > pain when trying to firm up a release.  So right now you are pulling
> > on HEAD at its most fragile, ironically.  The code quality should be
> > good, _if_ you can get the build to completion.
> 
> I'm happy to uncover those bugs; it's not a problem.

I appreciate your patience.  It's hard not to feel like every problem
discovered in an RC reflects a maintainership failure on my part.

Intellectually, I know that's not how collaborative software development
works.  Psychologically, I want everything I produce to be so perfect
that it inspires envy.  :)

> Why not this?:
> 
> 	.LE
> 	.P

Good idea!  This slots right in with no changes at all to the man(7)
package.  All of mandoc(1)'s complaints are as expected.

$ mandoc -T lint ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
mandoc: ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man:9:2: ERROR: skipping unknown macro: .LS itemized 1 4n
mandoc: ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man:18:2: ERROR: skipping unknown macro: .LE
mandoc: ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man:1:5: STYLE: lower case character in document title: TH foo
mandoc: ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man:10:2: WARNING: skipping paragraph macro: PP empty

(I expect the third of those ("STYLE") to go away when Ingo makes his
next mandoc(1) release.)

So that's one fewer problem I have to solve.  Thanks!

But I just found a different one to replace it.  groff_man(7) says:

            ...  Use IP without arguments to associate successive
            paragraphs with an existing list item; to these, inter‐
            paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.

...but that last clause is not working.  I'll work on that.

> You might use compactness keywords:
> 
> 	.LS itemized precompact
> 
> You could have 'precompact', 'postcompact', 'compact', and
> 'noncompact' (feel free to use names that aren't so terrible).

This might now not be necessary at all; people can simply use your
idiom.  `P` (and its synonyms `LP` and `PP`) always apply
inter-paragraphing spacing even in compact lists.  That's on purpose,
because sometimes a document uses compact lists where an item requires
multiple paragraphs, or interrupts the list with commentary.

I like your idiom of sticking `P` after the `LS` and/or the `LE` calls
as and where one wants inter-paragraph spacing before and/or after the
(compact) list.  I had designed the macros with that in mind, but had
not thought of that simple way to express it.

A list item per se starts with either:

* an argumentful `IP` macro call (for itemized or enumerated lists); or
* a `TP` macro call (for definition lists).

To recap, I have two macro programming problems to solve for RC3.

1.  Argumentless `IP` needs to apply inter-paragraph spacing even to
    items in compact lists.

2.  `LE` needs to break the line and cancel any indentation implied by
    the open list even when not followed immediately by a paragraphing
    macro.

Regards,
Branden

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autotools, was: Using LS/LE

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hello Alejandro and Branden,

Alejandro Colomar wrote on Sun, Aug 23, 2026 at 09:30:53PM +0200:
> From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>

>> Autoconf, Automake, and Libtool, the collective "autotools", are all
>> strongly distinguishable in purpose.

> I guess if you deal with them enough, you get to distinguish them.
> In shadow-utils, where we have an autotools-based build system, I
> consistently avoid to learn it.  I leave it up to the other maintainers
> and the distro maintainers to keep it working.  I only report the issues
> to them.  To me, it'd be easier to wipe it all and write a Makefile from
> scratch than learning the tools.  The day I have to maintain that, I'll
> probably do so.

As one data point for Alejandro, that's precisely what i chose to do,
and not even because i had never used autoconf before, just because
i considered using autoconf massive overkill and likely to cause
a maintenance nightmare.  The same applies to automake, but to
an even higher degree.

Look at this:

   $ pwd
  /co/mandoc
   $ wc configure  # handwritten, human-readable, and portable
     693    2537   20370 configure
   $ wc Makefile   # handwritten, human-readable, and portable
     619    1600   16050 Makefile
   $ wc config.h   # generated by ./configure
      54     150    1326 config.h

Apart from that, there are 37 test-*.c feature test files,
all handwritten and human-readable, 723 lines grand total,
i.e. less than twenty lines on average.

Finally, there are 19 compat_*.c portable replacement implementations
for systems lacking certain functions.

>> Autoconf is a brilliant idea, very
>> well executed.  I suspect that many of its its detractors possess a
>> constellation of negative traits:
>> 
>> 1.  They're not terribly competent at writing portable shell scripts;

That's indeed true for me.  While i have done a fair amount of shell
programming (including writing an entire incremental backup system
in pure sh(1) more than two decades ago, just for the heck of
learning the language and testing my skill on a non-trivial project,
which was obviously a terrible idea - yet the project was in use
for many years at that organization), and including some work in
the OpenBSD /etc/rc system, particularly rc.d(8) and daily(8),
i'm certainly not nearly as good at sh(1) as our true shell wizards
like Alexander Hall or Andrew Fresh.  So no, i don't consider myself
a competent shell programmer.

Shell is among the hardest languages to write good, secure code in.

That's why i have re-rwitten the OpenBSD security(8) script, which
used to be in sh(1) before my time, in perl(1), with contributions
from Andrew Fresh.  The security(8) acript is run from daily(8),
which is a shell script that i have also significantly contributed to.

> I believe I'm quite competent writing shell scripts.  :)


>> 3.  they refuse to believe that the variety of possible deployment
>>     environments is as wide as it is.

I think that was actually true thirty years ago, when many systems
shipped shells that were badly starved for features and full of bugs
and limitations.  It was no longer true 15 years ago.  Nobody
has used Silurian systems in need of autoconf-style shell workarounds
for at least a decade, probably much longer.

Here is the list of systems where the configuration system described
above is known to just work (sorted alphabetically):

  Adelie Linux     Alpine Linux     Arch Linux       Chimera Linux
  Crux Linux       Cygwin           Debian           DragonFly BSD
  Fedora           FreeBSD          Gentoo           Guix System
  IBM AIX          illumos          IRIX             macOS
  Minix 3          NetBSD           NixOS            OpenBSD
  openSUSE         Oracle Solaris   Slackware Linux  Sun OS 5.9
  Sun OS 5.10      Termux           Ubuntu           Unleashed OS
  Void Linux 

No shortage of weirdos in there, right?

> I acknowledge this.  However, some people refuse to believe that
> hand-crafted makefiles can also handle quite different environments too.
> I believe makefiles can do that just fine.  It's a matter of how much
> makefile code you write.
> 
> In the Linux man-pages project, we have 120 kB of makefiles.
> 
> 	$ find share/mk/ -type f | xargs wc -c GNUmakefile | tail -n1
> 	119125 total

That's an awful lot.  Why would the man-pages Makefiles need to be
more than seven times larger than the mandoc Makefiles?
You don't even need to compile and link C code, right?

> I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
> of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might be
> a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.

Groff is definitely larger than either of man-pages and mandoc,
and in particular uses a wider variety of languages and file
format transformations.  The factor might be larger than just
two or three, but not orders of magnitude larger, that much i
tend to agree with.

> Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
> fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
> them enough).

Strongly seconded.  Due to the autotools it uses, the time i spend
merely maintaining the GNU roff(7) port in OpenBSD, not even
counting the times i have spent submitting patches to the
upstream groff build system, is a very large factor (maybe
about ten times) larger than all the time i ever spent on the
mandoc build system, even though i wrote most of it from scratch
and have been maintaining it for over 20 operating systems for
over a decade.

>> The build system is the thing that consistently gives us the most pain
>> when trying to firm up a release.  So right now you are pulling on HEAD
>> at its most fragile, ironically.  The code quality should be good, _if_
>> you can get the build to completion.

That is in sharp contrast to my experience with the mandoc build
system.  When i send out release candidates for mandoc, almost
all the feedback i get concerns real issues with the actual code
itself, only a tiny fraction has to do with the files "Makefile"
and "configure", and even those few issues are typically very easy
to fix.

> I'm happy to uncover those bugs; it's not a problem.

That's also in sharp contrast to my experience.  I have repeatedly
spent considerable amounts of time fighting with the groff build
system, i have never been happy about it, and the considerable
loss of time it has often caused has been a problem that has often
hampered progress on more productive topics related to groff and mandoc.

Still, i do often track down such issues out of sheer necessity,
because otherwise building just fails outright.

All that said, i don't think revisiting the question of which build
and portability system to use for groff is particularly productive
at this time.  Bertrand already did the work of automaking it,
Branden is apparently reasonably content with the result (and comfort
of the chief maintainer *is* the eminent consideration regarding a
build system), so uprooting that beast once again is likely not
advisable, unless Branden somehow becomes very frustrated with it.

My motivation of sketching my experience here is mostly for
Alejandro's personal benefit.


Talking about releases, there is finally some progress:

 * I finally have a fully working port of groff-1.23
   with no more unexplained discrepancies left.
 * I finally have mandoc in sync with groff-1.23 -
   well, not perfectly, but so far that i now understand
   all the remaining incompatibilities, in particular
   those that groff grew from 1.22.4 to 1.23.
 * I'm currently looking through the mandoc TODO
   list for things that can be fixed with little risk
   before release; i think there at at most very few.
 * After that, my next step will be sending out a mandoc-1.15.1
   release candidate for testing, then release it.
 * After that, i will update the groff port to 1-23,
   then start more seriously looking at porting 1.24.
 * I will almost certainly *not* look at 1.25 before
   upgrading the port to 1.24 - last time, giving priority
   to release testing caused my progress on understanding
   new discrepancies in 1.23 to stall out, which probably
   wasn't ideal.

Here is a draft of the NEWS file (temporary file name, will
go away when the release candidates goes out) - just as a preview
for you showing likely release content:

  https://mandoc.bsd.lv/NEWS.draft.txt

I believe a few very weird bugs persist in the GNU tbl(1)
formatter for terminal output, related to when exactly vertical
lines between columns extend higher than the top of the table -
apparently, the set of cases is even different from the set of
cases where the vertical spacing before tables that Branden
attempted to remove for 1.23 still persists, and there are a
few cases in which vertical lines extend far (many lines)
beyond the table, sometimes above, sometimes below.
Then again, reporting those multiple weirdnesses properly will
have to wait until after the update of the port to groff-1.23.

If you are dying from curiosity, running the test file

  https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/checkout/src/regress/usr.bin/mandoc/tbl/layout/lines-nogroff.in?rev=1.2

through the mandoc gmdiff script (or just formatting it with groff
and mandoc and diffing the results) may give you a rough idea,
but i'm well aware this is *not* a proper bug report.


I don't yet understand what the point of .LS is - in my experience,
assembling items from .IP and .TP blocks to form lists is *not*
among the problems the man(7) language causes - quite to the contrary,
even though HTML is a strongly structural and semantic language,
assembling even HTML code from .IP and .TP is a almost never a
problem, and i don't see which other target format could possibly
be harder to handle than HTML.  I would probably have to read up
on prior discussions, but the topic feels unrelated and i won't mix
it into this mail.

Yours,
  Ingo

Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Branden,

> Date: 2026-08-23 15:40:51-0500
> From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
>
[...]
> > > 2.  they refuse to understand the very simple principle of operation
> > >     of the m4 macro language; and
> > 
> > I have the 2nd negative trait, though.
> 
> Nobody has time to learn everything.  But I take a dim view of refusal
> to learn things for bad reasons.  It can be hard to judge, and for sure
> to know exactly what a person's reasons are, because even if they don't
> misrepresent those reasons to others, they might lack the self-awareness
> necessary to know why they don't do things.
> 
> For example, when I procrastinate a task, I often find myself trying to
> figure out post facto why I did so, after I get around to doing it.

I believe the reason I avoid learning m4 is that I don't think I need
it.  So far, GNU Make has proved to be enough for me.  The day I find
myself writing a build system for a project, and find it impossible or
impractical to do it using GNU Make, I'll give autotools a chance.
But I haven't found anything yet that I can't do easily with GNU Make.

I have yet to be convinced that autotools provide any benefits over
GNU Make.

[...]
> > > 3.  they refuse to believe that the variety of possible deployment
> > >     environments is as wide as it is.
> > 
> > I acknowledge this.  However, some people refuse to believe that
> > hand-crafted makefiles can also handle quite different environments
> > too.  I believe makefiles can do that just fine.  It's a matter of how
> > much makefile code you write.
> 
> I wouldn't have ventured an opinion either way; I'm confident GNU Make
> is up to the challenge, but less sure about POSIX Issue 8 make(1).

Indeed, I use only GNU Make.

<https://make.mad-scientist.net/papers/rules-of-makefiles/>

Paul's first of the Rules of Makefiles:

	1.  Use GNU make.

	    Don’t hassle with writing portable makefiles, use a portable
	    make instead! 

Once POSIX Issue 8 make(1) gets more wide spread, I might put some
effort into transforming some GNU idioms into POSIX idioms, if it's
easy.

> > In the Linux man-pages project, we have 120 kB of makefiles.
> > 
> > 	$ find share/mk/ -type f | xargs wc -c GNUmakefile | tail -n1
> > 	119125 total
> > 
> > I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
> > of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might
> > be a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.
> 
> I was going to venture that groff's Automake files added up to much less
> than that.  It's less--but not "much".
> 
> $ wc -c $(find -name "*.am" | grep -v gnulib | sort)

Out of curiosity, why would you use $()?  It feels simpler (less
nesting) to use xargs(1).  It's also more robust, since the output of
$() might grow in some cases too much for a single command.

	$ find -name "*.am" | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
	228376 total

Another issue I have with find(1) is that it's so weird that I never
learnt its name flags.  It has so many different ones, working slightly
differently, that it's just insane.  grep(1) seems simpler to learn,
since we already know it anyway.
Necessary link: <https://doc.cat-v.org/unix/find-history>.

	$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
	228376 total

[...]
> 228376 total

Interesting.  The day someone complains again about my makefiles, I'll
point to this data.  I checked a few other projects out of curiosity:

	alx@devuan:~/src/shadow/shadow/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
	31885 total
	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/glibc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
	0
	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/gcc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
	1527474 total
	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/coreutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
	8171 ./Makefile.am
	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/findutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
	35765 total

Does glibc not use automake?  What do they use?

> 228kB is an order of magnitude higher than I'd have guessed.  But I
> should have known better--from bitter experience I should have intuited
> that the "doc.am" beast alone defeats any such notion.

It's interesting that a build system of the same size as mine but based
on autotools remains problematic, while mine based on GNU makefiles
consistently has zero issues.  And when one is reported (a few in the
last years), they are trivial and addressed in minutes.  Also, *all*
projects I've seen using non-make build systems consistently have issues
they just leave there because the problem isn't understood.  The more I
see about other build systems, the more I like mine.

I have to admit that writing a quality build system with GNU Make isn't
easy.  It took me many years to research, experiment, and learn.  So,
the makefile code I wrote is hardly maintainable by a novice (I wonder
what'll happen to it after me).  But the same is true of any good build
system.

I think distro maintainers are scared of makefiles because the average
makefile is problematic.  But the same things are said of C, and I don't
think C is particularly problematic as a language.  It's just the
average programms that are problematic, in any language.

> That's always the most troublesome of our Automake scripts, because we
> use the groff that we build to produce further artifacts.  It therefore
> functions in part as an acceptance test.
> 
> > Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
> > fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
> > them enough).
> 
> Apart from needing an awareness of Automake's special variable names,

Yup.  I have a similar problem with make(1)'s builtin variables and
rules.  My makefiles start with:

	MAKEFLAGS += --no-builtin-rules
	MAKEFLAGS += --no-builtin-variables
	MAKEFLAGS += --warn-undefined-variables

That is, what you see in the makefiles is what happens.  If it's not
written, it doesn't happen.

> which employ a naming scheme that one tends to notice, I can almost
> always get by writing an Automake script using only "make(1) brain",
> which is one reason I've been such crap at actually _learning_ Automake.
> 
> I more often have problems writing Automake scripts that will maintain
> portability between GNU Make and BSD Make, which is a constraint
> entirely of my own choosing.

Indeed.  I don't know why you self-inflict such pain.  The BSDs are okay
using GNU Make to build GNU-Make-based projects (IIRC, that's what Ingo
told me).

> > Oh, yeah, I agree with everyone here.  CMake is way worse than
> > autotools.  autotools is the least evil of the non-pure-makefile build
> > systems.
> 
> I'm curious to hear your opinion of meson/ninja.

Ninja
~~~~~

I only ever used Ninja as a generated language in projects that generate
it from CMake.  I've never written Ninja myself.  But from what I've
read, it's meant to be a generated language, so it's uninteresting to
me.

According to <https://stackoverflow.com/q/62847359/6872717>, Ninja seems
to be faster because the configure step is slower, and focuses on
generating optimized Ninja files.  That's ironic, because build systems
with a 'configure' pre-step are so brittle that I never trust them, and
thus I end up often wiping the entire generated files, and configuring
again.  So, a make(1)-only build system --like mine-- would be faster.

About the language itself, it seems to be a cut down version of make(1),
so I couldn't do any serious work with it.  It's meant to be generated-
only.

Meson
~~~~~

I've never used it.  I also don't see why I would.

It's meant to be fast, but many other systems (like Ninja) have also
claimed to be fast.  They (at least Ninja) actually result in being
slower, as said above, so I'd have to be convinced that it's not an
empty claim in the case of Meson too.

To me, GNU Make seems to be really fast.  As long as one writes the
rules correctly (so that it can be parallelized as much as possible),
it's super fast.  Maybe they compare it to makefiles written by
incompetent programmers, but that's not a fair claim.  To be convinced,
one would have to show that Meson is faster than *my* build system.  But
I don't believe that's possible; I don't even conceive the possibility
that make(1) would be anyhow a bottle-neck there.

It claims to be very readable, but everybody claims that of their
languages.  I find GNU Make to be the most readable build-system
language, just like I find C to be the most readable programming
language.  FWIW, I've googled for an arbitrary example of a Meson file,
and I didn't found it magically readable.

So, what's the point of Meson?  I guess it's okay-ish for people who are
incompetent at writing build systems and just want their build system to
work, like in companies, where the money is spent on programmers writing
code, and not in programmers dedicated to the build system.  That place
was once fulfilled by CMake, and without having used Meson myself, I
feel it's more or less the same (simpler than CMake, and thus better,
but not by much).

> > > Hmm, no release since 4.4 on Halloween 2022.  Yeah, they might be
> > > due.
> > 
> > Yup, I've been pinging Paul a few times in the last years.  But I gave
> > up last year.
> 
> I don't begrudge Paul D. Smith a victory lap/vacation after the triumph
> of POSIX Issue 8 blessing so many GNU Make extensions.  :)
>
> But each one justified itself more than adequately.

Agree; he's doing a great work.

> This document remains useful.
> 
> https://gist.github.com/Earnestly/29deee4f18346da6630ed1df760f1590

Thanks!

> > > Yes, but the tarballs get tested in a greater diversity of
> > > environments.  While I keep git HEAD "green"--I don't "git push"
> > > unless "make distcheck" runs successfully--that applies only to my
> > > personal development environment.  groff doesn't have a CI
> > > infrastructure.
> > > 
> > > The build system is the thing that consistently gives us the most
> > > pain when trying to firm up a release.  So right now you are pulling
> > > on HEAD at its most fragile, ironically.  The code quality should be
> > > good, _if_ you can get the build to completion.
> > 
> > I'm happy to uncover those bugs; it's not a problem.
> 
> I appreciate your patience.  It's hard not to feel like every problem
> discovered in an RC reflects a maintainership failure on my part.
> 
> Intellectually, I know that's not how collaborative software development
> works.  Psychologically, I want everything I produce to be so perfect
> that it inspires envy.  :)

But perfection takes a process.  Making imperfect stuff is part of it.
In some sense, that's why I avoid authoring permanent documents, like
articles, or talks, with my knowledge, because I know it's far from
being perfect.  But I'm quite happy writing crappy documents that are
part of a git repo, because I take them as a draft of the future
perfection.  :-)

> > Why not this?:
> > 
> > 	.LE
> > 	.P
> 
> Good idea!  This slots right in with no changes at all to the man(7)
> package.  All of mandoc(1)'s complaints are as expected.

:-)

> 
> $ mandoc -T lint ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
> mandoc: ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man:9:2: ERROR: skipping unknown macro: .LS itemized 1 4n
> mandoc: ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man:18:2: ERROR: skipping unknown macro: .LE
> mandoc: ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man:1:5: STYLE: lower case character in document title: TH foo
> mandoc: ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man:10:2: WARNING: skipping paragraph macro: PP empty
> 
> (I expect the third of those ("STYLE") to go away when Ingo makes his
> next mandoc(1) release.)
> 
> So that's one fewer problem I have to solve.  Thanks!

You're welcome!  :-)

> But I just found a different one to replace it.  groff_man(7) says:
> 
>             ...  Use IP without arguments to associate successive
>             paragraphs with an existing list item; to these, inter‐
>             paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.
> 
> ...but that last clause is not working.  I'll work on that.
> 
> > You might use compactness keywords:
> > 
> > 	.LS itemized precompact
> > 
> > You could have 'precompact', 'postcompact', 'compact', and
> > 'noncompact' (feel free to use names that aren't so terrible).
> 
> This might now not be necessary at all; people can simply use your
> idiom.

Yup; I wasn't really understanding why it would be necessary, but just
in case I was missing something, I mentioned that possibility.  I think
the current feature is just fine, and moving/removing P's around, one
can do the right thing.

>  `P` (and its synonyms `LP` and `PP`) always apply
> inter-paragraphing spacing even in compact lists.  That's on purpose,
> because sometimes a document uses compact lists where an item requires
> multiple paragraphs, or interrupts the list with commentary.
> 
> I like your idiom of sticking `P` after the `LS` and/or the `LE` calls

You problably mean before the LS and after the LE?

> as and where one wants inter-paragraph spacing before and/or after the
> (compact) list.  I had designed the macros with that in mind, but had
> not thought of that simple way to express it.

Here I've written some test page.  I can't handle some cases:

	alx@devuan:~/tmp$ cat ls.man 
	.TH a s d f
	.SH test
	compact but separated:
	.P
	.LS itemized 1
	.IP \[bu] 3
	foo
	.IP \[bu]
	foo
	.LE
	.P
	compact, and no space before:
	.LS itemized 1
	.IP \[bu] 3
	bar
	.IP \[bu]
	bar
	.LE
	.P
	compact, and no space after:  // How to do this??
	.P
	.LS itemized 1
	.IP \[bu] 3
	baz
	.IP \[bu]
	baz
	.P
	.LE
	compact, and no spaces before nor after:  // Same problem.
	.LS itemized 1
	.IP \[bu] 3
	qwe
	.IP \[bu]
	qwe
	.P
	.LE
	expanded:
	.LS itemized
	.IP \[bu] 3
	qwe
	.IP \[bu]
	qwe
	.LE
	.P
	end of file
	alx@devuan:~/tmp$ /opt/local/gnu/groff/20260823_master/bin/groff -man -Tutf8 ls.man
	a(s)                                                                        a(s)

	test
	     compact but separated:

	     •  foo
	     •  foo

	     compact, and no space before:
	     •  bar
	     •  bar

	     compact, and no space after:  // How to do this??

	     •  baz
	     •  baz

	     compact, and no spaces before nor after:  // Same problem.
	     •  qwe
	     •  qwe

	     expanded:

	     •  qwe

	     •  qwe

	     end of file

	f                                       d                                   a(s)

So, I expect you'll change 'P' to not add that blank line if it's within
LS/LE?  Or how should we write these?


Cheers,
Alex

> 
> A list item per se starts with either:
> 
> * an argumentful `IP` macro call (for itemized or enumerated lists); or
> * a `TP` macro call (for definition lists).
> 
> To recap, I have two macro programming problems to solve for RC3.
> 
> 1.  Argumentless `IP` needs to apply inter-paragraph spacing even to
>     items in compact lists.
> 
> 2.  `LE` needs to break the line and cancel any indentation implied by
>     the open list even when not followed immediately by a paragraphing
>     macro.
> 
> Regards,
> Branden



-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: autotools, was: Using LS/LE

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hallo Ingo!

> Date: 2026-08-24 00:31:07+0200
> From: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de>
>
> Hello Alejandro and Branden,
> 
> Alejandro Colomar wrote on Sun, Aug 23, 2026 at 09:30:53PM +0200:
> > From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
> 
> >> Autoconf, Automake, and Libtool, the collective "autotools", are all
> >> strongly distinguishable in purpose.
> 
> > I guess if you deal with them enough, you get to distinguish them.
> > In shadow-utils, where we have an autotools-based build system, I
> > consistently avoid to learn it.  I leave it up to the other maintainers
> > and the distro maintainers to keep it working.  I only report the issues
> > to them.  To me, it'd be easier to wipe it all and write a Makefile from
> > scratch than learning the tools.  The day I have to maintain that, I'll
> > probably do so.
> 
> As one data point for Alejandro, that's precisely what i chose to do,
> and not even because i had never used autoconf before, just because
> i considered using autoconf massive overkill and likely to cause
> a maintenance nightmare.  The same applies to automake, but to
> an even higher degree.

Thanks for the data point!

> Look at this:
> 
>    $ pwd
>   /co/mandoc
>    $ wc configure  # handwritten, human-readable, and portable
>      693    2537   20370 configure
>    $ wc Makefile   # handwritten, human-readable, and portable
>      619    1600   16050 Makefile
>    $ wc config.h   # generated by ./configure
>       54     150    1326 config.h

Nice!

> 
> Apart from that, there are 37 test-*.c feature test files,
> all handwritten and human-readable, 723 lines grand total,
> i.e. less than twenty lines on average.
> 
> Finally, there are 19 compat_*.c portable replacement implementations
> for systems lacking certain functions.

That sounds like what I'd have expected.  Thanks!
 
[...]
> >> 3.  they refuse to believe that the variety of possible deployment
> >>     environments is as wide as it is.
> 
> I think that was actually true thirty years ago, when many systems
> shipped shells that were badly starved for features and full of bugs
> and limitations.  It was no longer true 15 years ago.  Nobody
> has used Silurian systems in need of autoconf-style shell workarounds
> for at least a decade, probably much longer.
> 
> Here is the list of systems where the configuration system described
> above is known to just work (sorted alphabetically):
> 
>   Adelie Linux     Alpine Linux     Arch Linux       Chimera Linux
>   Crux Linux       Cygwin           Debian           DragonFly BSD
>   Fedora           FreeBSD          Gentoo           Guix System
>   IBM AIX          illumos          IRIX             macOS
>   Minix 3          NetBSD           NixOS            OpenBSD
>   openSUSE         Oracle Solaris   Slackware Linux  Sun OS 5.9
>   Sun OS 5.10      Termux           Ubuntu           Unleashed OS
>   Void Linux 
> 
> No shortage of weirdos in there, right?

Indeed!  :)

> > I acknowledge this.  However, some people refuse to believe that
> > hand-crafted makefiles can also handle quite different environments too.
> > I believe makefiles can do that just fine.  It's a matter of how much
> > makefile code you write.
> > 
> > In the Linux man-pages project, we have 120 kB of makefiles.
> > 
> > 	$ find share/mk/ -type f | xargs wc -c GNUmakefile | tail -n1
> > 	119125 total
> 
> That's an awful lot.  Why would the man-pages Makefiles need to be
> more than seven times larger than the mandoc Makefiles?

The main make file is 1.7k (mainly, the help text); let's ignore that
part.

20k of share/mk/ seems to be just the include's, so let's also ignore
that part, since it doesn't affect readability much.

	$ find share/mk/ -type f | xargs cat | wc -c
	117364
	$ find share/mk/ -type f | xargs cat | grep -v ^include |  wc -c
	99476

From the remaining 100k, 22k are part of the linting system, which runs
a lot of analyzers, both on the manual pages, and on the C examples.
That's superfluous for actually building, so we could live without it.

	$ find share/mk/lint/ -type f | xargs cat | grep -v ^include |  wc -c
	21668

Here's a look at the directories:

	$ du -h -d1 -A share/mk/
	7.0K	share/mk/install
	2.7K	share/mk/src
	33K	share/mk/build
	8.0K	share/mk/dist
	26K	share/mk/lint
	2.5K	share/mk/check
	35K	share/mk/configure
	1.6K	share/mk/help
	115K	share/mk/

The 'lint' target seems to be quite heavy.  'build-*' is also heavy, but
it's more necessary.  Although building the C programs is also done just
for linting purposes, and wouldn't be necessary.  Let's analyze that
directory:

	$ du -h -d1 -A share/mk/build/
	1.4K	share/mk/build/pre
	12K	share/mk/build/pdf
	3.6K	share/mk/build/catman
	2.2K	share/mk/build/html
	3.2K	share/mk/build/fonts
	5.3K	share/mk/build/examples
	3.0K	share/mk/build/ps
	2.1K	share/mk/build/man
	33K	share/mk/build/

Hmmm, actually the code for building the examples is actually small.
The PDF book takes the largest amount of code:

	$ du -h -A share/mk/build/pdf/
	3.2K	share/mk/build/pdf/pages
	8.5K	share/mk/build/pdf/book
	12K	share/mk/build/pdf/
	$ ls -lh share/mk/build/pdf/book/
	total 16K
	-rw-rw-r-- 1 alx alx 1.6K Aug  4 14:16 _.mk
	-rw-rw-r-- 1 alx alx  511 Aug  4 14:16 front.roff
	-rwxrwxr-x 1 alx alx 6.4K Aug  4 14:16 prepare.pl

I build all that just to make sure it builds, but we don't need it
either, and could perfectly live without building anything.  The only
code we really need from there is that which updates the date in the TH
line, which is in

	$ ls -lh share/mk/build/man
	total 12K
	-rw-rw-r-- 1 alx alx 481 Aug  4 14:16 _.mk
	-rw-rw-r-- 1 alx alx 995 Aug  4 14:16 nonso.mk
	-rw-rw-r-- 1 alx alx 629 Aug  4 14:16 so.mk

The remaining 31k of the build-* targets we could live without it.

And then there's the configure/ subdir.  That holds variables for the
program names and their flags.  I have CFLAGS-like variables for most
programs, just in case we need to tweak them.  Most of them are
unnecessary, and we could live without them.  We also have variables for
every program (including things like CAT := cat).  The nice thing about
those variables is that I can list _all_ the dependencies of the build
system, programatically.

	$ make -R help
	make: warning: undefined variable 'GNUMAKEFLAGS'
	Common targets:
		all			Synonym of 'build'
		build			Build the usual stuff
		build-all		Build everything
		check			Check the results of the build
		clean			Remove all temporary files
		dist			Produce the release tarball
		distcheck		Check the release tarball
		help			Print this help
		help-list-build-depends	List build dependencies (package/program)
		help-list-targets	List all targets
		help-list-variables	List configurable variables
		install			Install the usual stuff
		install-all		Install everything
		lint			Lint the source code
		nothing			Do nothing; useful for debugging
		uninstall		Uninstall everything (might leave traces)
	$ make -R help-list-build-depends | wc -l
	make: warning: undefined variable 'GNUMAKEFLAGS'
	63
	$ make -R help-list-build-depends | head -n1
	make: warning: undefined variable 'GNUMAKEFLAGS'
	awk/awk

Also, most of the dependencies would just vanish if we got rid of the
lint target and didn't build the C programs, so this is in part just due
to the lint/ subdir.

I could certainly live with just 10% of this build system, but those
extra targets have been useful to prevent introducing several
regressions in the pages.

Another important aspect of makefiles is that I *can* add all these lint
targets just fine (they're just like any other targets).  It's just a
matter of adding some code; the more I want to lint, the more code, but
it's not that hard.  With autotools, I'd probably give up.  It's already
hard to make it just work for simply building, so linting is way beyond
what one would support.

> You don't even need to compile and link C code, right?

Actually, I do.  I build most of the C examples from the pages, and for
that, I also had to add the Makefile code to extract them from the
pages, so it's a bit more.

> > I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
> > of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might be
> > a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.
> 
> Groff is definitely larger than either of man-pages and mandoc,
> and in particular uses a wider variety of languages and file
> format transformations.  The factor might be larger than just
> two or three, but not orders of magnitude larger, that much i
> tend to agree with.
> 
> > Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
> > fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
> > them enough).
> 
> Strongly seconded.  Due to the autotools it uses, the time i spend
> merely maintaining the GNU roff(7) port in OpenBSD, not even
> counting the times i have spent submitting patches to the
> upstream groff build system, is a very large factor (maybe
> about ten times) larger than all the time i ever spent on the
> mandoc build system, even though i wrote most of it from scratch
> and have been maintaining it for over 20 operating systems for
> over a decade.
> 
> >> The build system is the thing that consistently gives us the most pain
> >> when trying to firm up a release.  So right now you are pulling on HEAD
> >> at its most fragile, ironically.  The code quality should be good, _if_
> >> you can get the build to completion.
> 
> That is in sharp contrast to my experience with the mandoc build
> system.  When i send out release candidates for mandoc, almost
> all the feedback i get concerns real issues with the actual code
> itself, only a tiny fraction has to do with the files "Makefile"
> and "configure", and even those few issues are typically very easy
> to fix.
> 
> > I'm happy to uncover those bugs; it's not a problem.
> 
> That's also in sharp contrast to my experience.  I have repeatedly
> spent considerable amounts of time fighting with the groff build
> system, i have never been happy about it, and the considerable
> loss of time it has often caused has been a problem that has often
> hampered progress on more productive topics related to groff and mandoc.

I don't mind because I don't have to work with it often.  I just try to
build, and if it doesn't, I report it and move on to something else.
I can certainly see how your opinion is different being a downstream
packager, where you *have* to make it work, and have pressure to make it
work rather soon.  To me, if it doesn't build, I'll try the feature some
other month.

> Still, i do often track down such issues out of sheer necessity,
> because otherwise building just fails outright.
> 
> All that said, i don't think revisiting the question of which build
> and portability system to use for groff is particularly productive
> at this time.  Bertrand already did the work of automaking it,
> Branden is apparently reasonably content with the result (and comfort
> of the chief maintainer *is* the eminent consideration regarding a
> build system), so uprooting that beast once again is likely not
> advisable, unless Branden somehow becomes very frustrated with it.
> 
> My motivation of sketching my experience here is mostly for
> Alejandro's personal benefit.

Thanks!  It's good to see some programmers share my opinion/concerns.
In the past, I've received quite some pressure from distro/GNU people
(mostly, Gentoo maintainers) pushing me to abandon the GNU Make
hand-crafted build system in favour of their favourite tool (they
offered autotools, then Meson), and I didn't enjoy that pressure at all.

> Talking about releases, there is finally some progress:
> 
>  * I finally have a fully working port of groff-1.23
>    with no more unexplained discrepancies left.
>  * I finally have mandoc in sync with groff-1.23 -
>    well, not perfectly, but so far that i now understand
>    all the remaining incompatibilities, in particular
>    those that groff grew from 1.22.4 to 1.23.

	    --- MAJOR INCOMPATIBLE CHANGE FOR GROFF-1.23 COMPATIBILITY ---
	 * man(7)/tbl(7): stop unconditionally emitting vertical space before .TS

>  * I'm currently looking through the mandoc TODO
>    list for things that can be fixed with little risk
>    before release; i think there at at most very few.
>  * After that, my next step will be sending out a mandoc-1.15.1
>    release candidate for testing, then release it.

	    --- MAJOR NEW FEATURES ---
	 * man(1): use unveil(2) if provided by the operating system
	 * mdoc(7): support .Lb libname [...] in the SYNOPSIS section
	 * man(7): implement .MR (reference manual page), a groff-1.23 extension

Nice!  I'm waiting for that.  :-)


Have a lovely night!
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[G. Branden Robinson]

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Hi Alex,

At 2026-08-24T01:11:00+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> I believe the reason I avoid learning m4 is that I don't think I need
> it.  So far, GNU Make has proved to be enough for me.  The day I find
> myself writing a build system for a project, and find it impossible or
> impractical to do it using GNU Make, I'll give autotools a chance.
> But I haven't found anything yet that I can't do easily with GNU Make.
> 
> I have yet to be convinced that autotools provide any benefits over
> GNU Make.

For me, the biggest benefit of GNU Automake is the test harness that's
just lying there.  It's stupidly easy to add a new test script.[0]

I would not have had the courage to undertake serious groff development
if I could not build a scaffold that gives me a fighting chance to keep
the impact of my changes under control and predictable.

As with any system where a test suite is retrofitted on, we're always
finding new things that need tests.  But with over 370 test scripts now,
some of which perform many different individualized "checks",[1] I think
we can claim growing confidence in groff's determinism.

[I wrote:]
> > I wouldn't have ventured an opinion either way; I'm confident GNU
> > Make is up to the challenge, but less sure about POSIX Issue 8
> > make(1).
> 
> Indeed, I use only GNU Make.
> 
> <https://make.mad-scientist.net/papers/rules-of-makefiles/>
> 
> Paul's first of the Rules of Makefiles:
> 
> 	1.  Use GNU make.
> 
> 	    Don’t hassle with writing portable makefiles, use a portable
> 	    make instead! 
> 
> Once POSIX Issue 8 make(1) gets more wide spread, I might put some
> effort into transforming some GNU idioms into POSIX idioms, if it's
> easy.

Should be.  The only change I can think of off the top of my head is
that you'll need to covert

FOO:=bar

to

FOO::=bar

...because BSD implemented `:=` with different semantics.  Less useful
ones, but they planted their feet.

`:=` is therefore ambiguous.  (If one wants BSD `:=` semantics, one uses
the truly ghastly `:::=`.  Serves 'em right!  3;-) )

> > $ wc -c $(find -name "*.am" | grep -v gnulib | sort)
> 
> Out of curiosity, why would you use $()?  It feels simpler (less
> nesting) to use xargs(1).  It's also more robust, since the output of
> $() might grow in some cases too much for a single command.

I seldom (if ever) encounter the final difficulty.  When working
interactively at the command line, I'm practically never trying to hunt
up things across an entire file system.  Just $HOME is too big to be
wieldy.  If I really have to trawl my gigantic $HOME, I write a script
and go do something else for a while.

> 	$ find -name "*.am" | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> 	228376 total

You can see that my "phrasing" is shorter.  Nice for interactive use.

For non-ephemeral artifacts, I prefer more "readable" syntax, by which I
mean ones easier to speak aloud in English, because one might be
discussing the content with colleagues.

> Another issue I have with find(1) is that it's so weird that I never
> learnt its name flags.

That it is.

> It has so many different ones, working slightly differently, that it's
> just insane.

Sometimes, it's what you need.  I learned find/xargs on Solaris, which
was much leaner than GNU findutils--but the weirdness was already baked
in.  As I understand it, find(1) and xargs(1) didn't come out of the
Bell Labs CSRC, but rather the USG, the folks who did PWB/Unix and then
ultimately System III and System V.  They also came up with cpio(1).

Their brains worked differently than the research folks'.

> grep(1) seems simpler to learn,
> since we already know it anyway.
> Necessary link: <https://doc.cat-v.org/unix/find-history>.

Oh, hah.  Yes.  I'll ask you to take my word for it that I wrote my
historical summary above before reading this part of your message.  ;-)

> > 228376 total

A substantial amount of this is the GNU GPLv3 notice boilerplate.

...but I'm not arsing myself to measure it.

> Interesting.  The day someone complains again about my makefiles, I'll
> point to this data.  I checked a few other projects out of curiosity:
> 
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/shadow/shadow/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> 	31885 total
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/glibc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> 	0
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/gcc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> 	1527474 total
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/coreutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> 	8171 ./Makefile.am
> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/findutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> 	35765 total
> 
> Does glibc not use automake?  What do they use?

Hand-written Makefiles, apparently! For a while I followed their Git
commits, but I'm well behind on them.  glibc and GCC saturated my
ability to keep up with the projects I track.

> > 228kB is an order of magnitude higher than I'd have guessed.  But I
> > should have known better--from bitter experience I should have
> > intuited that the "doc.am" beast alone defeats any such notion.
> 
> It's interesting that a build system of the same size as mine but
> based on autotools remains problematic, while mine based on GNU
> makefiles consistently has zero issues.  And when one is reported (a
> few in the last years), they are trivial and addressed in minutes.
> Also, *all* projects I've seen using non-make build systems
> consistently have issues they just leave there because the problem
> isn't understood.  The more I see about other build systems, the more
> I like mine.

groff may be trying to solve somewhat different problems.

We have weird-ass problems like this:

https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?68567

...and I daresay you don't.

'Course, that was an Autoconf problem, not an Automake problem.  But it
was still a build dependency issue, and thus ultimately had impact on
Makefiles.

> I have to admit that writing a quality build system with GNU Make
> isn't easy.  It took me many years to research, experiment, and learn.
> So, the makefile code I wrote is hardly maintainable by a novice (I
> wonder what'll happen to it after me).  But the same is true of any
> good build system.

Yeah.  Not long after I took a job in Sydney, I was gifted with a
printed-out meme as decoration for my cubicle wall.  Attached.

CMake and Australian culture taught me how to swear as if I were myself
a member of Insane Clown Posse.  :-|

> I think distro maintainers are scared of makefiles because the average
> makefile is problematic.  But the same things are said of C, and I
> don't think C is particularly problematic as a language.

Disagree with you here.  C and C++ are _terrible_ languages.  :D

(By multiple important metrics, English is a terrible natural language.
Its phonemic inventory is unusually large and its spelling thoroughly
unpredictable.  It is about as hard for non-native speakers to acquire
as Arabic, Russian, or Mandarin or Cantonese Chinese are to monoglot
English speakers.  I happen to love the English language.  But I
acknowledge that it is a cruel mistress.)

If I ever get over the fence to the greener grass of Ada, I'll let you
know how I find it.  ;-)

> It's just the average programms that are problematic, in any language.

Average programmers do average work in any language.  The parameter over
which language designers have control is whether the work gets "done" at
all.  What "done" _means_ is back in the hands of the programmer again.

> Yup.  I have a similar problem with make(1)'s builtin variables and
> rules.  My makefiles start with:
> 
> 	MAKEFLAGS += --no-builtin-rules
> 	MAKEFLAGS += --no-builtin-variables
> 	MAKEFLAGS += --warn-undefined-variables
> 
> That is, what you see in the makefiles is what happens.  If it's not
> written, it doesn't happen.

This looks like a good idea.

> > I more often have problems writing Automake scripts that will
> > maintain portability between GNU Make and BSD Make, which is a
> > constraint entirely of my own choosing.
> 
> Indeed.  I don't know why you self-inflict such pain.  The BSDs are
> okay using GNU Make to build GNU-Make-based projects (IIRC, that's
> what Ingo told me).

groff already had that trait.  It's not something I had to make happen.
Given that, I'm loath to give it up.  Also, it's much more satisfying to
complain about BSD make as someone who _uses_ and maintains a project
that supports building with it.  That way, when BSD Make partisans
ignore my complaints, as they always have to date,[2] it's clear that
they're ignoring a real user of their tool rather than some fruit loop
on Phoronix who has lots of opinions but doesn't even write software.

> Ninja
> ~~~~~
> 
> I only ever used Ninja as a generated language in projects that
> generate it from CMake.  I've never written Ninja myself.  But from
> what I've read, it's meant to be a generated language, so it's
> uninteresting to me.

Right.  My understanding is that Meson is usually the thing that
generates it.

> So, what's the point of Meson?  I guess it's okay-ish for people who
> are incompetent at writing build systems and just want their build
> system to work, like in companies, where the money is spent on
> programmers writing code, and not in programmers dedicated to the
> build system.  That place was once fulfilled by CMake, and without
> having used Meson myself, I feel it's more or less the same (simpler
> than CMake, and thus better, but not by much).

Well, Meson apparently arose in the ferment of tech sector rage and
resentment against GNU GPLv3...a rage carefully calculated to ease the
extraction of economic rents and the exploitation of engineers' labor.

It's not under a copyleft license.  (It uses Apache 2.0.)

Meson's author perceived a market opportunity and seized it.

Good for him.  He seems to run a highly active podcast, so maybe he's
living his best life!

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the tradeoffs in adopting Meson are much
tougher decisions than its partisans credit, nor that its best features
are isomorphic to properties GNU Make (or even CMake) already has.

It is very frequently the case that technologies get adopted for reasons
other than their suitability to the task.  Just look at the x86 ISA.
How on earth did _that_ become dominant, relative to its competitors
from 1978 to 1995?

The situation is similar to that captured by an old saying, "you can't
reason a man out of a position he wasn't reasoned into".

If an engineer selects, or is directed to select, a tool because "it's
not copyleft", no demonstration of a copylefted alternative tool's
superiority will succeed.  Even if its replacement with a copylefted
tool would materially affect the department's profitability, resistance
will be found, and if the case gets too dramatic to resist, then when
the change is eventually made, the change in the department's fortunes
will be attributed wholly to other factors, most likely a VP or
Director's "amazing leadership", without substance or explanation.

To make sense of decision making in most software engineering firms, it
helps to understand corporate America (and much of Europe).  Copyleft is
Communism and must be opposed with jihadist fervor.  Say what you will
about the hijackers who knocked down the World Trade Towers, they had no
truck with Marxism-Leninism.  They were always steadfast on that point.
How do you think they got where they did?[3][4]

(I have problems with Marx and Lenin myself, but no one ever asks what
they are.  ;-) )

> > I appreciate your patience.  It's hard not to feel like every
> > problem discovered in an RC reflects a maintainership failure on my
> > part.
> > 
> > Intellectually, I know that's not how collaborative software
> > development works.  Psychologically, I want everything I produce to
> > be so perfect that it inspires envy.  :)
> 
> But perfection takes a process.  Making imperfect stuff is part of it.
> In some sense, that's why I avoid authoring permanent documents, like
> articles, or talks, with my knowledge, because I know it's far from
> being perfect.  But I'm quite happy writing crappy documents that are
> part of a git repo, because I take them as a draft of the future
> perfection.  :-)

Yup.  Intellectually, I get it.  And feedback from folks like Bruno is
an important part of the quality assurance process.  I'm happy that it
produces actionable items.

> > But I just found a different one to replace it.  groff_man(7) says:
> > 
> >             ...  Use IP without arguments to associate successive
> >             paragraphs with an existing list item; to these, inter‐
> >             paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.
> > 
> > ...but that last clause is not working.  I'll work on that.
> > 
> > > You might use compactness keywords:
> > > 
> > > 	.LS itemized precompact
> > > 
> > > You could have 'precompact', 'postcompact', 'compact', and
> > > 'noncompact' (feel free to use names that aren't so terrible).
> > 
> > This might now not be necessary at all; people can simply use your
> > idiom.
> 
> Yup; I wasn't really understanding why it would be necessary, but just
> in case I was missing something, I mentioned that possibility.  I
> think the current feature is just fine, and moving/removing P's
> around, one can do the right thing.
> 
> > `P` (and its synonyms `LP` and `PP`) always apply inter-paragraphing
> > spacing even in compact lists.  That's on purpose, because sometimes
> > a document uses compact lists where an item requires multiple
> > paragraphs, or interrupts the list with commentary.
> > 
> > I like your idiom of sticking `P` after the `LS` and/or the `LE`
> > calls
> 
> You problably mean before the LS and after the LE?

Actually either way works, right now.  I don't plan to change that.

$ cat ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
.TH foo 1 2026-08-23 "groff test suite"
.SH Name
foo \- frobnicate a bar
.SH Description
This is my man page.
There are many like it,
but this one is mine.
.SS "Example 1"
People should read more about
.P
.LS itemized 1 4n
.IP \[bu]
bash
.IP
This line should be preceded by vertical space.
.IP \[bu]
m4
.IP \[bu]
make
.LE
.P
and learn what these tools can do for them.
.SS "Example 2"
(This example should look the same as the first.)
People should read more about
.LS itemized 1 4n
.P
.IP \[bu]
bash
.IP
This line should be preceded by vertical space.
.IP \[bu]
m4
.IP \[bu]
make
.LE
.P
and learn what these tools can do for them.
$ ./build/test-groff -rLL=72n -man -T utf8 ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
foo(1)                   General Commands Manual                  foo(1)

Name
     foo - frobnicate a bar

Description
     This is my man page.  There are many like it, but this one is mine.

   Example 1
     People should read more about

     •   bash
         This line should be preceded by vertical space.
     •   m4
     •   make

     and learn what these tools can do for them.

   Example 2
     (This  example  should  look the same as the first.)  People should
     read more about

     •   bash
         This line should be preceded by vertical space.
     •   m4
     •   make

     and learn what these tools can do for them.

groff test suite               2026‐08‐23                         foo(1)

> > as and where one wants inter-paragraph spacing before and/or after
> > the (compact) list.  I had designed the macros with that in mind,
> > but had not thought of that simple way to express it.
> 
> Here I've written some test page.  I can't handle some cases:
> 
> 	alx@devuan:~/tmp$ cat ls.man 
> 	.TH a s d f
> 	.SH test
> 	compact but separated:
> 	.P
> 	.LS itemized 1
> 	.IP \[bu] 3
> 	foo
> 	.IP \[bu]
> 	foo
> 	.LE
> 	.P
> 	compact, and no space before:
> 	.LS itemized 1
> 	.IP \[bu] 3
> 	bar
> 	.IP \[bu]
> 	bar
> 	.LE
> 	.P
> 	compact, and no space after:  // How to do this??
> 	.P
> 	.LS itemized 1
> 	.IP \[bu] 3
> 	baz
> 	.IP \[bu]
> 	baz
> 	.P
> 	.LE
> 	compact, and no spaces before nor after:  // Same problem.
> 	.LS itemized 1
> 	.IP \[bu] 3
> 	qwe
> 	.IP \[bu]
> 	qwe
> 	.P
> 	.LE
> 	expanded:
> 	.LS itemized
> 	.IP \[bu] 3
> 	qwe
> 	.IP \[bu]
> 	qwe
> 	.LE
> 	.P
> 	end of file
> 	alx@devuan:~/tmp$ /opt/local/gnu/groff/20260823_master/bin/groff -man -Tutf8 ls.man
> 	a(s)                                                                        a(s)
> 
> 	test
> 	     compact but separated:
> 
> 	     •  foo
> 	     •  foo
> 
> 	     compact, and no space before:
> 	     •  bar
> 	     •  bar
> 
> 	     compact, and no space after:  // How to do this??
> 
> 	     •  baz
> 	     •  baz
> 
> 	     compact, and no spaces before nor after:  // Same problem.
> 	     •  qwe
> 	     •  qwe
> 
> 	     expanded:
> 
> 	     •  qwe
> 
> 	     •  qwe
> 
> 	     end of file
> 
> 	f                                       d                                   a(s)

Yup, that looks like the problem I flagged as #2 earlier.

> > 2.  `LE` needs to break the line and cancel any indentation implied
> >     by the open list even when not followed immediately by a
> >     paragraphing macro.

> So, I expect you'll change 'P' to not add that blank line if it's
> within LS/LE?  Or how should we write these?

No, I _want_ `P` to add a blank line, before and internally to a list,
even a compact one.  But I want `LE` to be able to configurably
_suppress_ a blank line after a compact list.  Right now the simplest
thing to do seems like giving it a Boolean argument to eat.

Right now I'm conceptualizing that argument as "post-compactness",
because that way it's likely to be consistent with any specified
"compactness" Boolean argument to `LS`, but I wouldn't count on the
former term surviving to code or documentation.

Regards,
Branden

[0] Example:

    https://cgit.git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/commit/?id=aa43b5e261a7b4fe3b09e6673f145b0e123faffa

[1] Of which this one is probably the most savage:

    https://cgit.git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/src/roff/groff/tests/check-delimiter-validity.sh?h=1.24.1

[2] With one honorable exception, a *BSD luminary who contacted me
    privately.  Haven't heard back from him in over a year now, but
    these things can take time.

[3] https://openlibrary.org/works/OL193645W/The_Looming_Tower
[4] https://www.c-span.org/program/american-history-tv/charlie-wilsons-war/123837

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Re: Using LS/LE

[Collin Funk]

"G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> writes:

>> Interesting.  The day someone complains again about my makefiles, I'll
>> point to this data.  I checked a few other projects out of curiosity:
>> 
>> 	alx@devuan:~/src/shadow/shadow/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
>> 	31885 total
>> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/glibc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
>> 	0
>> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/gcc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
>> 	1527474 total
>> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/coreutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
>> 	8171 ./Makefile.am
>> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/findutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
>> 	35765 total
>> 
>> Does glibc not use automake?  What do they use?
>
> Hand-written Makefiles, apparently! For a while I followed their Git
> commits, but I'm well behind on them.  glibc and GCC saturated my
> ability to keep up with the projects I track.

Yes, glibc uses GNU make extensively. It is quite difficult to read if
you do not understand GNU make extensions, compared to Automake which is
for the most part just declaring targets and sources. It also requires
more upkeep to make sure things work correctly, e.g., parallelism.

So, I don't think pointing out that Automake files have a similar file
size to regular Makefiles is a good comparison.

Collin

Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Branden,

> Date: 2026-08-23 20:11:29-0500
> From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
>
> Hi Alex,
> 
> At 2026-08-24T01:11:00+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > I believe the reason I avoid learning m4 is that I don't think I need
> > it.  So far, GNU Make has proved to be enough for me.  The day I find
> > myself writing a build system for a project, and find it impossible or
> > impractical to do it using GNU Make, I'll give autotools a chance.
> > But I haven't found anything yet that I can't do easily with GNU Make.
> > 
> > I have yet to be convinced that autotools provide any benefits over
> > GNU Make.
> 
> For me, the biggest benefit of GNU Automake is the test harness that's
> just lying there.  It's stupidly easy to add a new test script.[0]
> 
> [0] Example:
> 
>     https://cgit.git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/commit/?id=aa43b5e261a7b4fe3b09e6673f145b0e123faffa

The marginal cost of adding one test is small (but nonzero), but is that
also true for the first test?

FWIW, I used the build system of the man-pages for a C library project,
and while I obviously had to add some makefile code for adding tests,
the marginal cost of adding one test file is zero.  That is, the
makefiles find anything under share/tests/, and include it to the file
list.

[...]
> [I wrote:]
> > > I wouldn't have ventured an opinion either way; I'm confident GNU
> > > Make is up to the challenge, but less sure about POSIX Issue 8
> > > make(1).
> > 
> > Indeed, I use only GNU Make.
> > 
> > <https://make.mad-scientist.net/papers/rules-of-makefiles/>
> > 
> > Paul's first of the Rules of Makefiles:
> > 
> > 	1.  Use GNU make.
> > 
> > 	    Don’t hassle with writing portable makefiles, use a portable
> > 	    make instead! 
> > 
> > Once POSIX Issue 8 make(1) gets more wide spread, I might put some
> > effort into transforming some GNU idioms into POSIX idioms, if it's
> > easy.
> 
> Should be.  The only change I can think of off the top of my head is
> that you'll need to covert
> 
> FOO:=bar
> 
> to
> 
> FOO::=bar
> 
> ...because BSD implemented `:=` with different semantics.  Less useful
> ones, but they planted their feet.
> 
> `:=` is therefore ambiguous.  (If one wants BSD `:=` semantics, one uses
> the truly ghastly `:::=`.  Serves 'em right!  3;-) )

Thanks!  I've applied the following commit.

	commit af165bbd04c6f85c66a33452b1d247f32c926ae6
	Author: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
	Date:   2026-08-24 12:12:11 +0200

	    share/mk/, GNUmakefile: Use ::= instead of :=
	    
	    That's what POSIX.1-2024 standardized.
	    
	    Suggested-by: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
	    Message-ID: <20260824011129.njsipdzmay4smp6i@illithid>
	    Signed-off-by: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>

	diff --git a/GNUmakefile b/GNUmakefile
	index 3f2ea50baa66..f8b3add5b325 100644
	--- a/GNUmakefile
	+++ b/GNUmakefile
	@@ -2,8 +2,8 @@
	 # SPDX-License-Identifier: LGPL-3.0-only WITH LGPL-3.0-linking-exception
	 
	 
	-SHELL       := bash
	-.SHELLFLAGS := -Eeuo pipefail -c
	+SHELL       ::= bash
	+.SHELLFLAGS ::= -Eeuo pipefail -c
	 
	 
	 ifneq (4.4.999,$(firstword $(sort 4.4.999 $(MAKE_VERSION))))
	[...]

> > > $ wc -c $(find -name "*.am" | grep -v gnulib | sort)
> > 
> > Out of curiosity, why would you use $()?  It feels simpler (less
> > nesting) to use xargs(1).  It's also more robust, since the output of
> > $() might grow in some cases too much for a single command.
> 
> I seldom (if ever) encounter the final difficulty.  When working
> interactively at the command line, I'm practically never trying to hunt
> up things across an entire file system.  Just $HOME is too big to be
> wieldy.  If I really have to trawl my gigantic $HOME, I write a script
> and go do something else for a while.
> 
> > 	$ find -name "*.am" | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> > 	228376 total
> 
> You can see that my "phrasing" is shorter.  Nice for interactive use.

$() vs |xargs is only shorter by a 3 characters.  Also, $() has three
characters for which you have to hold shift, vs 1 from |xargs, which
makes $() actually harder to type than |xargs, IMHO.

Some interesting feature of |xargs is that you can prepend it with
'|tee /dev/tty' when you need to debug the input, when something goes
wrong.

[...]
> > grep(1) seems simpler to learn,
> > since we already know it anyway.
> > Necessary link: <https://doc.cat-v.org/unix/find-history>.
> 
> Oh, hah.  Yes.  I'll ask you to take my word for it that I wrote my
> historical summary above before reading this part of your message.  ;-)

:-)

[...]
> > Interesting.  The day someone complains again about my makefiles, I'll
> > point to this data.  I checked a few other projects out of curiosity:
> > 
> > 	alx@devuan:~/src/shadow/shadow/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> > 	31885 total
> > 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/glibc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> > 	0
> > 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/gcc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> > 	1527474 total
> > 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/coreutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> > 	8171 ./Makefile.am
> > 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/findutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> > 	35765 total
> > 
> > Does glibc not use automake?  What do they use?
> 
> Hand-written Makefiles, apparently! For a while I followed their Git
> commits, but I'm well behind on them.  glibc and GCC saturated my
> ability to keep up with the projects I track.

Oh, nice!

> > > 228kB is an order of magnitude higher than I'd have guessed.  But I
> > > should have known better--from bitter experience I should have
> > > intuited that the "doc.am" beast alone defeats any such notion.
> > 
> > It's interesting that a build system of the same size as mine but
> > based on autotools remains problematic, while mine based on GNU
> > makefiles consistently has zero issues.  And when one is reported (a
> > few in the last years), they are trivial and addressed in minutes.
> > Also, *all* projects I've seen using non-make build systems
> > consistently have issues they just leave there because the problem
> > isn't understood.  The more I see about other build systems, the more
> > I like mine.
> 
> groff may be trying to solve somewhat different problems.
> 
> We have weird-ass problems like this:
> 
> https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?68567
> 
> ...and I daresay you don't.

I _think_ had some issues that are somewhat similar in the build system
of a C library.  I had to deal with them in the pkg-config file.  I say
I think, because I don't understand that problem enough.

> 'Course, that was an Autoconf problem, not an Automake problem.  But it
> was still a build dependency issue, and thus ultimately had impact on
> Makefiles.
> 
> > I have to admit that writing a quality build system with GNU Make
> > isn't easy.  It took me many years to research, experiment, and learn.
> > So, the makefile code I wrote is hardly maintainable by a novice (I
> > wonder what'll happen to it after me).  But the same is true of any
> > good build system.
> 
> Yeah.  Not long after I took a job in Sydney, I was gifted with a
> printed-out meme as decoration for my cubicle wall.  Attached.

:D

> CMake and Australian culture taught me how to swear as if I were myself
> a member of Insane Clown Posse.  :-|
> 
> > I think distro maintainers are scared of makefiles because the average
> > makefile is problematic.  But the same things are said of C, and I
> > don't think C is particularly problematic as a language.
> 
> Disagree with you here.  C and C++ are _terrible_ languages.  :D

It has many dialects, and I acknowledge some of them --notably including
ISO C89-- are terrible.  But some dialects, such as GNU C2y, are quite
nice.

Please don't judge the language by its worst dialects.  :)

> (By multiple important metrics, English is a terrible natural language.
> Its phonemic inventory is unusually large and its spelling thoroughly
> unpredictable.  It is about as hard for non-native speakers to acquire
> as Arabic, Russian, or Mandarin or Cantonese Chinese are to monoglot
> English speakers.  I happen to love the English language.  But I
> acknowledge that it is a cruel mistress.)

Phonetically, Spanish might be some of the simplest languages.

On the other hand, written English is quite simple compared to other
languages (including Spanish).  It doesn't conjugate much.

I've heard Norwegian is even simpler than English when written, and
possibly one of the simplest languages.  I haven't learnt it, so I can't
judge.

> If I ever get over the fence to the greener grass of Ada, I'll let you
> know how I find it.  ;-)
> 
> > It's just the average programms that are problematic, in any language.
> 
> Average programmers do average work in any language.  The parameter over
> which language designers have control is whether the work gets "done" at
> all.  What "done" _means_ is back in the hands of the programmer again.
> 
[...]
> > > I like your idiom of sticking `P` after the `LS` and/or the `LE`
> > > calls
> > 
> > You problably mean before the LS and after the LE?
> 
> Actually either way works, right now.  I don't plan to change that.
> 
> $ cat ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
> .TH foo 1 2026-08-23 "groff test suite"
> .SH Name
> foo \- frobnicate a bar
> .SH Description
> This is my man page.
> There are many like it,
> but this one is mine.
> .SS "Example 1"
> People should read more about
> .P
> .LS itemized 1 4n
> .IP \[bu]
> bash
> .IP
> This line should be preceded by vertical space.
> .IP \[bu]
> m4
> .IP \[bu]
> make
> .LE
> .P
> and learn what these tools can do for them.
> .SS "Example 2"
> (This example should look the same as the first.)
> People should read more about
> .LS itemized 1 4n
> .P
> .IP \[bu]
> bash
> .IP
> This line should be preceded by vertical space.
> .IP \[bu]
> m4
> .IP \[bu]
> make
> .LE
> .P
> and learn what these tools can do for them.
> $ ./build/test-groff -rLL=72n -man -T utf8 ATTIC/inline-compact-list.man
> foo(1)                   General Commands Manual                  foo(1)
> 
> Name
>      foo - frobnicate a bar
> 
> Description
>      This is my man page.  There are many like it, but this one is mine.
> 
>    Example 1
>      People should read more about
> 
>      •   bash
>          This line should be preceded by vertical space.
>      •   m4
>      •   make
> 
>      and learn what these tools can do for them.
> 
>    Example 2
>      (This  example  should  look the same as the first.)  People should
>      read more about
> 
>      •   bash
>          This line should be preceded by vertical space.
>      •   m4
>      •   make
> 
>      and learn what these tools can do for them.
> 
> groff test suite               2026‐08‐23                         foo(1)
> 
> > > as and where one wants inter-paragraph spacing before and/or after
> > > the (compact) list.  I had designed the macros with that in mind,
> > > but had not thought of that simple way to express it.
> > 
> > Here I've written some test page.  I can't handle some cases:
> > 
> > 	alx@devuan:~/tmp$ cat ls.man 
> > 	.TH a s d f
> > 	.SH test
> > 	compact but separated:
> > 	.P
> > 	.LS itemized 1
> > 	.IP \[bu] 3
> > 	foo
> > 	.IP \[bu]
> > 	foo
> > 	.LE
> > 	.P
> > 	compact, and no space before:
> > 	.LS itemized 1
> > 	.IP \[bu] 3
> > 	bar
> > 	.IP \[bu]
> > 	bar
> > 	.LE
> > 	.P
> > 	compact, and no space after:  // How to do this??
> > 	.P
> > 	.LS itemized 1
> > 	.IP \[bu] 3
> > 	baz
> > 	.IP \[bu]
> > 	baz
> > 	.P
> > 	.LE
> > 	compact, and no spaces before nor after:  // Same problem.
> > 	.LS itemized 1
> > 	.IP \[bu] 3
> > 	qwe
> > 	.IP \[bu]
> > 	qwe
> > 	.P
> > 	.LE
> > 	expanded:
> > 	.LS itemized
> > 	.IP \[bu] 3
> > 	qwe
> > 	.IP \[bu]
> > 	qwe
> > 	.LE
> > 	.P
> > 	end of file
> > 	alx@devuan:~/tmp$ /opt/local/gnu/groff/20260823_master/bin/groff -man -Tutf8 ls.man
> > 	a(s)                                                                        a(s)
> > 
> > 	test
> > 	     compact but separated:
> > 
> > 	     •  foo
> > 	     •  foo
> > 
> > 	     compact, and no space before:
> > 	     •  bar
> > 	     •  bar
> > 
> > 	     compact, and no space after:  // How to do this??
> > 
> > 	     •  baz
> > 	     •  baz
> > 
> > 	     compact, and no spaces before nor after:  // Same problem.
> > 	     •  qwe
> > 	     •  qwe
> > 
> > 	     expanded:
> > 
> > 	     •  qwe
> > 
> > 	     •  qwe
> > 
> > 	     end of file
> > 
> > 	f                                       d                                   a(s)
> 
> Yup, that looks like the problem I flagged as #2 earlier.
> 
> > > 2.  `LE` needs to break the line and cancel any indentation implied
> > >     by the open list even when not followed immediately by a
> > >     paragraphing macro.
> 
> > So, I expect you'll change 'P' to not add that blank line if it's
> > within LS/LE?  Or how should we write these?
> 
> No, I _want_ `P` to add a blank line, before and internally to a list,
> even a compact one.  But I want `LE` to be able to configurably
> _suppress_ a blank line after a compact list.  Right now the simplest
> thing to do seems like giving it a Boolean argument to eat.
> 
> Right now I'm conceptualizing that argument as "post-compactness",
> because that way it's likely to be consistent with any specified
> "compactness" Boolean argument to `LS`, but I wouldn't count on the
> former term surviving to code or documentation.

I think we don't need an argument.  Just a behavior fix.

	alx@devuan:~/tmp$ cat ls.man 
	.TH a s d f
	.SH test
	compact, and no spaces before nor after:  // Same problem.
	.LS itemized 1
	.IP \[bu] 3
	qwe
	.IP \[bu]
	qwe
	.LE
	end of file
	alx@devuan:~/tmp$ /opt/local/gnu/groff/20260823_master/bin/groff -man -Tutf8 ls.man 
	a(s)                                                                        a(s)

	test
	     compact, and no spaces before nor after:  // Same problem.
	     •  qwe
	     •  qwe end of file

	f                                       d                                   a(s)

I think LE should insert at least a break.  With that, we'd have this
solved, I think.


Have a lovely day!
Alex

> 
> Regards,
> Branden
> 
> [1] Of which this one is probably the most savage:
> 
>     https://cgit.git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/src/roff/groff/tests/check-delimiter-validity.sh?h=1.24.1
> 
> [2] With one honorable exception, a *BSD luminary who contacted me
>     privately.  Haven't heard back from him in over a year now, but
>     these things can take time.





-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Collin,

> Date: 2026-08-23 19:01:06-0700
> From: Collin Funk <collin.funk1@gmail.com>
>
> "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> >> Interesting.  The day someone complains again about my makefiles, I'll
> >> point to this data.  I checked a few other projects out of curiosity:
> >> 
> >> 	alx@devuan:~/src/shadow/shadow/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> >> 	31885 total
> >> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/glibc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> >> 	0
> >> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/gcc/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> >> 	1527474 total
> >> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/coreutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> >> 	8171 ./Makefile.am
> >> 	alx@devuan:~/src/gnu/findutils/master$ find | grep '\.am$' | grep -v gnulib | sort | xargs wc -c | tail -n1
> >> 	35765 total
> >> 
> >> Does glibc not use automake?  What do they use?
> >
> > Hand-written Makefiles, apparently! For a while I followed their Git
> > commits, but I'm well behind on them.  glibc and GCC saturated my
> > ability to keep up with the projects I track.
> 
> Yes, glibc uses GNU make extensively. It is quite difficult to read if
> you do not understand GNU make extensions, compared to Automake which is
> for the most part just declaring targets and sources.

'for the most part' of the text written.  Then you have to understand
everything that isn't written, which is more difficult than grepping in
the GNU Make manual for a few extensions.

You don't know '?:=' in GNU Make, then grep for '?:=' in the GNU Make
manual.  Simple.

You don't know why/how Automake is doing something?  Good luck guessing
why.

> It also requires
> more upkeep to make sure things work correctly, e.g., parallelism.

This is not true.  The shadow-utils project (which uses autotools) has
bugs open for years because `make dist -j4` doesn't work (and it hasn't
been fixed yet).

The Linux man-pages build system works fine with -j128.  Ignoring the
initial cost in writing the build system, maintenance is quite cheap.

And if a bug ever shows up in the GNU Make code, I'm confident it'll
take a few minutes to debug it and fix it.

The parallelism problem in makefiles comes from incorrect use of
makefiles.  That is, use of recursive make(1).  But recursive make(1) is
discouraged.  If you have a single make(1) process controlling
everything, it runs smoothly.

> So, I don't think pointing out that Automake files have a similar file
> size to regular Makefiles is a good comparison.

Given the same size, Automake is less readable, because it has more
implicit assumptions.  In GNU Make, there are very few assumptions, and
I bring that to zero by disabling the builtins.  If you can't read the
grammar, it's a matter of reading the documentation.  GNU Make has
pretty good documentation.


Have a lovely day!
Alex

> 
> Collin

-- 
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Re: Using LS/LE

[G. Branden Robinson]

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Hi Ingo,

At 2026-08-24T00:31:07+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> I don't yet understand what the point of .LS is

I have articulated clearly several specific points about it.  I
initially had the idea for LS/LE as early as December 2022.

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2022-12/msg00075.html

At that time, I got no feedback on my proposal, which I interpreted as
indifference.  That's the usual fate of my proposals.  ;-)

For example:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-07/msg00096.html

Earlier this year, after list nesting caused Alex pain again, and having
gotten more familiar with the bash(1) man page source, I consulted with
Alex, Pádraig Brady (GNU coreutils), Stephen Gildea (help2man), and Chet
Ramey (GNU Bash) regarding its interface, semantics, and goals.

> - in my experience, assembling items from .IP and .TP blocks to form
> lists is *not* among the problems the man(7) language causes - quite
> to the contrary,

Assembling a list is not difficult.   Exercising control over
indentation and inter-paragraph spacing (even just to turn it on and
shut it off) as they apply to the items of lists, especially when
nested, can get quite tedious.

> even though HTML is a strongly structural and semantic language,
> assembling even HTML code from .IP and .TP is a almost never a
> problem, and i don't see which other target format could possibly
> be harder to handle than HTML.

I don't disagree there.  To get groff man(7) to generate <ol>, <ul>, and
<dl> elements as desired, I'm going to have to make other revisions to
grohtml(1) first, because it insists on using HTML tables to mock up
indentation.[1]  I don't want that.  So unfortunately I don't expect
that improvement to element tagging in HTML output in groff 1.25, though
I hope to get that done for 1.26.  (All the other features of LS/LE are,
and Alex just this week helped ensure that some bugs in it got stomped.)

That's not really HTML's fault, but arises from groff's long tradition
of swinging a Mario mallet to force its stream-based paradigmatic
processing peg into HTML's block-structured hole.

> I would probably have to read up on prior discussions, but the topic
> feels unrelated and i won't mix it into this mail.

groff's documentation attempts to motivate the macros' presence.

groff_man(7):
   List enclosure macros
     Enclose paragraphing macros between LS and LE to identify them as
     list items.  Doing so can mark them as “compact”, ease management
     of their indentation, and supply hints to the output driver to
     improve their rendering (as with HTML).  Lists can be nested.
     (Sub)sectioning macro calls, and the end of the document, close all
     open lists.  These macros are GNU extensions.

     .LS type [compactness [indentation]]
            (since groff 1.25) Start (or open) a list.  type is one of
            “definition”, “enumerated”, or “itemized”.  compactness is a
            Boolean value directing suppression of inter‐paragraph
            spacing between list items.  indentation specifies an
            indentation amount for the body of each list item; it is
            then unnecessary to specify this argument to the list item
            macros.  Use IP with a mark argument to represent an
            itemized or enumerated list item, and TP for a definition
            list item.  Use IP without arguments to associate
            successive paragraphs with an existing list item; to these,
            inter‐paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.

     .LE    (since groff 1.25) End (or close) the most recent open list.

NEWS:

*  The an (man) package offers new macros to ease the formatting of
   lists.  Enclose paragraphing macros between `LS` and `LE` to identify
   them as list items.  Doing so can mark them as "compact", ease
   management of their indentation, and supply hints to the output
   driver to improve their rendering (as with HTML).  Lists can be
   nested.  (Sub)sectioning macro calls, and the end of the document,
   close all open lists.  See groff_man(7) for details, and
   groff_man_style(7) for an example.  Thanks to Alex Colomar, Chet
   Ramey, Pádraig Brady, and Stephen Gildea for consultation and
   encouragement, and to Alex for selecting these macros' names.

   Because these macros format no text, documents employing them risk no
   damage to their content if the formatter does not support them.  A
   man(7) document author can choose either to transition to these
   macros, to manage list "compactness" and item indentation with
   existing man(7) package facilities, or to employ both approaches.

Regards,
Branden

[1] https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?68424

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Larry,

> Date: 2026-08-28 22:50:50-0400
> From: Larry Kollar <larry.kollar@icloud.com>
>
> 
> Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> wrote:
> 
> > I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
> > of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might be
> > a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.
> > 
> > Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
> > fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
> > them enough).
> 
> I don’t know. Can a Makefile check for the presence of certain libraries
> or other apps and fail gracefully (by which I mean exiting with a message
> like “You need app X, plus libraries Y and Z, installed to successfully
> compile this.”)? That’s one of the things that “makes" me appreciate taking
> that extra step of typing `.configure` before make.

Yes, it can.  Here's a trivial test for that:

	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ cat Makefile 
	HAS_LIBFOO := $(shell find /usr/include/foo.h >/dev/null && echo yes || echo no)

	ifeq ($(HAS_LIBFOO),no)
	  $(error You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this.)
	endif

	all:
		echo Done
	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ make
	find: ‘/usr/include/foo.h’: No such file or directory
	Makefile:4: *** You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this..  Stop.

You may of course write more complex tests if you need.  Anything that
you can do with a shell script, you can do it with a Makefile.

That said, I personally prefer to fail compilation due to missing header
files.  It's simpler, and there's not much difference.  After all, if
compilation fails for <foo.h>, it's trivial to run

	$ apt-file find /include/foo.h

But if you want the test, you can have it.


Have a lovely day!
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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> Date: 2026-08-29 10:42:14+0200
> From: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
>
> Hi Larry,
> 
> > Date: 2026-08-28 22:50:50-0400
> > From: Larry Kollar <larry.kollar@icloud.com>
> >
> > 
> > Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
> > > of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might be
> > > a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.
> > > 
> > > Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
> > > fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
> > > them enough).
> > 
> > I don’t know. Can a Makefile check for the presence of certain libraries
> > or other apps and fail gracefully (by which I mean exiting with a message
> > like “You need app X, plus libraries Y and Z, installed to successfully
> > compile this.”)? That’s one of the things that “makes" me appreciate taking
> > that extra step of typing `.configure` before make.
> 
> Yes, it can.  Here's a trivial test for that:
> 
> 	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ cat Makefile 
> 	HAS_LIBFOO := $(shell find /usr/include/foo.h >/dev/null && echo yes || echo no)
> 
> 	ifeq ($(HAS_LIBFOO),no)
> 	  $(error You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this.)

Oh, I didn't need the period here...

> 	endif
> 
> 	all:
> 		echo Done
> 	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ make
> 	find: ‘/usr/include/foo.h’: No such file or directory
> 	Makefile:4: *** You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this..  Stop.

... make(1) already appended one here.

:)

> 
> You may of course write more complex tests if you need.  Anything that
> you can do with a shell script, you can do it with a Makefile.
> 
> That said, I personally prefer to fail compilation due to missing header
> files.  It's simpler, and there's not much difference.  After all, if
> compilation fails for <foo.h>, it's trivial to run
> 
> 	$ apt-file find /include/foo.h
> 
> But if you want the test, you can have it.
> 
> 
> Have a lovely day!
> Alex
> 
> -- 
> <https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>



-- 
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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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> Date: 2026-08-29 10:45:34+0200
> From: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
>
> > Date: 2026-08-29 10:42:14+0200
> > From: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
> >
> > Hi Larry,
> > 
> > > Date: 2026-08-28 22:50:50-0400
> > > From: Larry Kollar <larry.kollar@icloud.com>
> > >
> > > 
> > > Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
> > > > of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might be
> > > > a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.
> > > > 
> > > > Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
> > > > fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
> > > > them enough).
> > > 
> > > I don’t know. Can a Makefile check for the presence of certain libraries
> > > or other apps and fail gracefully (by which I mean exiting with a message
> > > like “You need app X, plus libraries Y and Z, installed to successfully
> > > compile this.”)? That’s one of the things that “makes" me appreciate taking
> > > that extra step of typing `.configure` before make.
> > 
> > Yes, it can.  Here's a trivial test for that:
> > 
> > 	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ cat Makefile 
> > 	HAS_LIBFOO := $(shell find /usr/include/foo.h >/dev/null && echo yes || echo no)

You can also trivially test with gcc(1) instead of find(1):

	$ echo '#include <foo.h>' | gcc -x c -E >/dev/null 2>&1 && echo yes || echo no
	no

If you put that expression within $(shell ...), you can use it similarly.


Cheers,
alex

> > 
> > 	ifeq ($(HAS_LIBFOO),no)
> > 	  $(error You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this.)
> 
> Oh, I didn't need the period here...
> 
> > 	endif
> > 
> > 	all:
> > 		echo Done
> > 	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ make
> > 	find: ‘/usr/include/foo.h’: No such file or directory
> > 	Makefile:4: *** You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this..  Stop.
> 
> ... make(1) already appended one here.
> 
> :)
> 
> > 
> > You may of course write more complex tests if you need.  Anything that
> > you can do with a shell script, you can do it with a Makefile.
> > 
> > That said, I personally prefer to fail compilation due to missing header
> > files.  It's simpler, and there's not much difference.  After all, if
> > compilation fails for <foo.h>, it's trivial to run
> > 
> > 	$ apt-file find /include/foo.h
> > 
> > But if you want the test, you can have it.
> > 
> > 
> > Have a lovely day!
> > Alex
> > 
> > -- 
> > <https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> <https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>



-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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> Date: 2026-08-29 10:53:02+0200
> From: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
>
> > Date: 2026-08-29 10:45:34+0200
> > From: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
> >
> > > Date: 2026-08-29 10:42:14+0200
> > > From: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
> > >
> > > Hi Larry,
> > > 
> > > > Date: 2026-08-28 22:50:50-0400
> > > > From: Larry Kollar <larry.kollar@icloud.com>
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
> > > > > of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might be
> > > > > a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
> > > > > fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
> > > > > them enough).
> > > > 
> > > > I don’t know. Can a Makefile check for the presence of certain libraries
> > > > or other apps and fail gracefully (by which I mean exiting with a message
> > > > like “You need app X, plus libraries Y and Z, installed to successfully
> > > > compile this.”)? That’s one of the things that “makes" me appreciate taking
> > > > that extra step of typing `.configure` before make.
> > > 
> > > Yes, it can.  Here's a trivial test for that:
> > > 
> > > 	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ cat Makefile 
> > > 	HAS_LIBFOO := $(shell find /usr/include/foo.h >/dev/null && echo yes || echo no)
> 
> You can also trivially test with gcc(1) instead of find(1):
> 
> 	$ echo '#include <foo.h>' | gcc -x c -E >/dev/null 2>&1 && echo yes || echo no
> 	no
> 
> If you put that expression within $(shell ...), you can use it similarly.

Of course, I had some typos there.

Here's a fully working example:

	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ cat Makefile 
	CC ::= cc

	HAS_STDLIB ::= \
		$(shell \
			echo '#include <stdlib.h>' \
			| $(CC) -x c - -E >/dev/null \
			&& echo yes \
			|| echo no; \
		)

	HAS_LIBFOO ::= \
		$(shell \
			echo '#include <foo.h>' \
			| $(CC) -x c - -E >/dev/null \
			&& echo yes \
			|| echo no; \
		)

	ifeq ($(HAS_STDLIB),no)
	  $(error You need <stdlib.h> installed to successfully compile this)
	endif
	ifeq ($(HAS_LIBFOO),no)
	  $(error You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this)
	endif

	all:
		echo Done
	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ make
	<stdin>:1:10: fatal error: foo.h: No such file or directory
	compilation terminated.
	Makefile:23: *** You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this.  Stop.


Cheers,
Alex

> 
> 
> Cheers,
> alex
> 
> > > 
> > > 	ifeq ($(HAS_LIBFOO),no)
> > > 	  $(error You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this.)
> > 
> > Oh, I didn't need the period here...
> > 
> > > 	endif
> > > 
> > > 	all:
> > > 		echo Done
> > > 	alx@devuan:~/tmp/testlib$ make
> > > 	find: ‘/usr/include/foo.h’: No such file or directory
> > > 	Makefile:4: *** You need library FOO installed to successfully compile this..  Stop.
> > 
> > ... make(1) already appended one here.
> > 
> > :)
> > 
> > > 
> > > You may of course write more complex tests if you need.  Anything that
> > > you can do with a shell script, you can do it with a Makefile.
> > > 
> > > That said, I personally prefer to fail compilation due to missing header
> > > files.  It's simpler, and there's not much difference.  After all, if
> > > compilation fails for <foo.h>, it's trivial to run
> > > 
> > > 	$ apt-file find /include/foo.h
> > > 
> > > But if you want the test, you can have it.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Have a lovely day!
> > > Alex
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > <https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > <https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> <https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>



-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config)

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi Larry,

Larry Kollar wrote on Fri, Aug 28, 2026 at 10:50:50PM -0400:
> Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> wrote:

>> I believe that a set of makefiles that would handle all of the targets
>> of a project like groff wouldn't take much more than that.  It might be
>> a few hundred kB.  If it's well organized, it can be maintainable.
>> 
>> Because the makefile language is so simple, bugs are easy to spot and
>> fix, compared to autotools (possibly automake, but I can't distinguish
>> them enough).

> I don't know. Can a Makefile check for the presence of certain libraries
> or other apps and fail gracefully

Obviously, a Makefile can do anything a sh(1) script can do -
arguably, the central idea of make(1) is topological sorting
of sh(1) script snippets according to a dependency graph.
So the answer to your question is an emphatic "yes".

> (by which I mean exiting with a message like "You need app X, plus
> libraries Y and Z, installed to successfully compile this.")?

Absolutely, and some real-world Makefiles do just that,
for example the large and frightening bsd.port.mk(5) on OpenBSD:

  https://man.openbsd.org/bsd.port.mk
  https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/ports/infrastructure/mk/bsd.port.mk

But smaller, simpler Makefiles emitting diagnostic messages of the
kind you describe exist, too.

> That's one of the things that "makes" me appreciate taking
> that extra step of typing `.configure` before make.

Well, that doesn't look like a particularly strong argument,
because adding a rule to the Makefile that automatically runs
the configure script when needed would usually not be difficult,
and the end result regarding diagnostics would be identical to
what you desire.

I think the main reason why build system developers don't usually
run configure automatically from the Makefile is that from a user
perspective, it makes sense to keep the two steps "inspect the
configuration and make some decisions, but do not start building
anything just yet" and "build the stuff, using the variables and
decisions made at the configure stage" separate.  Users may even
want to pause between the two steps, consider the decisions made,
for example by inspecting configure output files like config.h
or Makefile.local or, in case serious debugging is needed, config.log
and maybe even change some of the decisions manually and re-run
configure, even though autoconf(1) makes both steps, inspection
and manipulation of decisions, gratuitiously hard, both by spewing
vast amounts of noise and by the ./configure script being next to
unreadable.  But saner, better-written configure scripts can make
both inspection and manipulation quite simple and pleasant.

Running the configure script automatically from the Makefile
would remove this opportunity for inspection and tweaking.

My point isn't that configure should be integrated into the
Makefile.  Quite to the contrary, medium-sized projects like groff
and mandoc that need to run dozens of configuration tests do benefit
from having a separate configure script.  What i'm saying is that
developers can save themselves massive amounts of work and pain
by ditching autoconf(1) and writing their own configure script -
and thus also make life massively easier for their users, because
dealing with autoconf(1) is equally painful for users.

But again, i do *not* advocate for ripping autoconf(1) out of groff
because Branden seems happy enough with it for now, and it kind
of works most of time, admittedly with regular hiccups around
releases.  Ripping it out would look like a make-work project
at this point; constantly revisiting the same decisions is not
very productive, and automake(1) was only integrated a few years ago.

> Now, a lot of older software (or modern, simple programs) won't
> need that complexity, and a well-written INSTALL file can call out
> necessary Makefile edits before letting 'er rip.

Right, suckless.org software comes to mind as an example.
(That's not to say that i would endorse them in every respect -
for example, i like small amounts of configurability and do not
like the "zero configuration at run time" approach of suckless.)

Yours,
  Ingo

Re: Using LS/LE

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi Branden,

G. Branden Robinson wrote on Fri, Aug 28, 2026 at 11:36:15PM -0500:
> At 2026-08-24T00:31:07+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote:

>> I don't yet understand what the point of .LS is

> I have articulated clearly several specific points about it.  I
> initially had the idea for LS/LE as early as December 2022.
> 
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2022-12/msg00075.html
> 
> At that time, I got no feedback on my proposal,

If i remember correctly, i read that message as "i don't have clear
goals, i don't have clear plans, and i don't see much need",
so i saw no need to respond.

> which I interpreted as indifference.
> That's the usual fate of my proposals.  ;-)

Well, sometimes some people (including myself) do consider your proposals.  :)

> For example:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-07/msg00096.html

I missed that one, i wasn't around much in July.
Not sure whether that's needed from a general-purpose typesetting
perspective, i would have to think about that.

For manual pages, that .ref proposal sounds like massive overengineering.
It's simply not needed because almost all such information can be
derived directly from the semantic manual page macros - and that's
not theoretical speculation, mandoc(1) contains a mature implementation
that is several years old by now.  While mdoc(7) in mandoc does provide
the .Tg macro, it is very rarely needed: currently, there are 214
instances of .Tg in OpenBSD /usr/share/man/, even though that directory
contains 4635 manual pages, that's one instance in over 20 manual pages
on average.  Only 9 out of 4635 manualpages use the .Tg macro at all,
which is less than two permille.

> Earlier this year, after list nesting caused Alex pain again,

Oh yes, that is true.  The man(7) language doesn't really support
nested lists well.

> and having gotten more familiar with the bash(1) man page source,
> I consulted with Alex, Pádraig Brady (GNU coreutils),
> Stephen Gildea (help2man), and Chet Ramey (GNU Bash) regarding
> its interface, semantics, and goals.

>> - in my experience, assembling items from .IP and .TP blocks to form
>> lists is *not* among the problems the man(7) language causes - quite
>> to the contrary,

> Assembling a list is not difficult.   Exercising control over
> indentation and inter-paragraph spacing (even just to turn it on and
> shut it off) as they apply to the items of lists, especially when
> nested, can get quite tedious.

Again, that is true.

The mandoc(1) -T man output mode uses .RS at the beginning and .RE
at the end of each list to set up the indentation, and in nested
lists, it uses .RS after the end of an inner list to get back to
the indentation of the outer list.  It uses .PD 0 whenever
following paragraph(s) want no leading vertical space and .PD with
no arguments whenever following paragraphs want normal vertical
spacing again.

That being tedious is a direct consequence of man(7) being more of
a presentational than semantic language.

>> even though HTML is a strongly structural and semantic language,
>> assembling even HTML code from .IP and .TP is a almost never a
>> problem, and i don't see which other target format could possibly
>> be harder to handle than HTML.

> I don't disagree there.  To get groff man(7) to generate <ol>, <ul>, and
> <dl> elements as desired, I'm going to have to make

Well, mandoc -man -T html already generates (see man_html.c) <dl>
or <ul> from .IP and .TP, since 2019:

  date: 2019/03/02 16:29:49;  author: schwarze;  lines: +68 -16
  Represent multiple subsequent .IP blocks having a consistent
  head argument of *, \-, or \(bu as <ul> rather than as <dl>,
  using a bit of heuristics.

  Basic idea suggested by Dagfinn Ilmari Mannsaker <ilmari at github>
  in https://github.com/Debian/debiman/issues/67 and independently by
  <Pali dot Rohar at gmail dot com> on <discuss at mandoc dot bsd dot lv>.

> other revisions to
> grohtml(1) first, because it insists on using HTML tables to mock up
> indentation.[1]  I don't want that.  So unfortunately I don't expect
> that improvement to element tagging in HTML output in groff 1.25, though
> I hope to get that done for 1.26.  (All the other features of LS/LE are,
> and Alex just this week helped ensure that some bugs in it got stomped.)
> 
> That's not really HTML's fault, but arises from groff's long tradition
> of swinging a Mario mallet to force its stream-based paradigmatic
> processing peg into HTML's block-structured hole.

>> I would probably have to read up on prior discussions, but the topic
>> feels unrelated and i won't mix it into this mail.

> groff's documentation attempts to motivate the macros' presence.
> 
> groff_man(7):
>    List enclosure macros
>      Enclose paragraphing macros between LS and LE to identify them as
>      list items.  Doing so can mark them as "compact", ease management
>      of their indentation, and supply hints to the output driver to
>      improve their rendering (as with HTML).  Lists can be nested.
>      (Sub)sectioning macro calls, and the end of the document, close all
>      open lists.

Do you recommend closing open lists before ending the section,
or do you recommend dropping the .LE if it happens to be at the end
of a section?  This sentence sounds like the latter.

I would probably strongly recommend the former and have the macro set
warn about missing .LE because many years of experience show that
forgotten list end macros are a widespread oversight among manual page
authors, often causing the list to run further than intended.
For that reason, having the warning about missing .LE seems
important.

>      These macros are GNU extensions.

Using these macros is probably less disruptive than using .MR,
because lack of support in the formatter will only ruin spacing
and indentation but not corrupt the text.  Considering that the
benefit of .LS/.LE is relatively minor, it was indeed important
to choose such a conservative design.

>      .LS type [compactness [indentation]]

What is the logical reason for requiring that, to specify the
indentation, you also need to specify the compactness?

>             (since groff 1.25) Start (or open) a list.  type is one of
>             "definition", "enumerated", or "itemized".  compactness is a
>             Boolean value directing suppression of inter-paragraph
>             spacing between list items.

That sounds very confusing.  Does "Boolean" mean: either the string "0"
or the string "1"?  Or what would "true" or "false" mean?
Then, "Boolean value directing suppression" sounds vaguely as if "1"
might mean "suppress", but that's not expressed unambiguously.

Finally, why only *between* list items?  Why not *before each*
list item?  Would suppressing the vertical spacing before the first
list item still require .PD 0 *in addition* to "compact"?

>             indentation specifies an
>             indentation amount for the body of each list item; it is
>             then unnecessary to specify this argument to the list item
>             macros.

That sounds as if the syntax of "indentation" is probably the same
as for the .IP and .TP "width" argument, but that is not clearly
stated.  So, what is the syntax?

>             Use IP with a mark argument to represent an
>             itemized or enumerated list item, and TP for a definition
>             list item.  Use IP without arguments to associate
>             successive paragraphs with an existing list item; to these,
>             inter-paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.

Not sure the phrase staring with "to these" should be advertised
so prominently.  *If* an author chooses to make a list "compact"
but then kind of contradicts themselves by inserting paragraph
breaks into individual list items, the behaviour you describe is
probably what the formatter should do.

But authors ought to be strongly discouraged from doing that.
When one or more items of your list are so complicated that they
require more than one paragraph of text, making your list "compact"
makes no sense in the first place and will result in ugly and
confusing typography.


To summarize, after reviewing the design of .LS/.LE, my first
impression is that it is likely a small-value, small-harm
addition.  I think i will support them in mandoc(1) -man when
i find the time, but not emit them from mandoc(1) -T man, at least
not for many years to come, because the whole point of that output
mode is dealing with operating systems that use ancient
manual page formatters, and those are unlikely to support .LS/.LE.

Chances are the the deeper scrutiny that will be necessary to
implement .LS/.LE in mandoc(1) may lead to additional criticism;
or if we are lucky, it may not.

Yours,
  Ingo

Re: Using LS/LE

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Ingo,

> Date: 2026-08-29 13:34:55+0200
> From: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de>
>
[...]
> The mandoc(1) -T man output mode uses
> [...]

Oh, there's a -Tman mode!  That's interesting!  Some years ago,
I wondered whether groff(1) could have a -Troff mode, which would
evaluate the man(7) (or any other -m macros, FWIW) macros without
formatting the document.  This -Tman from mandoc(1) sounds like a
similar (but not same, of course) thing.

[...]
> >      .LS type [compactness [indentation]]
> 
> What is the logical reason for requiring that, to specify the
> indentation, you also need to specify the compactness?

I guess I'd have the same question if it were the other way around, and
this way I expect it's simple to implement (I'd certainly be more
worried if groff(1) attempted to guess the meaning of my argument if I
only pass one of them), so I think I'm okay with it.  Do you have any
ideas for a better interface?

> >             (since groff 1.25) Start (or open) a list.  type is one of
> >             "definition", "enumerated", or "itemized".  compactness is a
> >             Boolean value directing suppression of inter-paragraph
> >             spacing between list items.
> 
> That sounds very confusing.  Does "Boolean" mean: either the string "0"
> or the string "1"?  Or what would "true" or "false" mean?
> Then, "Boolean value directing suppression" sounds vaguely as if "1"
> might mean "suppress", but that's not expressed unambiguously.

Agree.

> Finally, why only *between* list items?  Why not *before each*
> list item?  Would suppressing the vertical spacing before the first
> list item still require .PD 0 *in addition* to "compact"?

The idea, I think, is that if you write '.P' surriounding LS/LS, you'll
get the outer blanks, and if not, you'll get compactness also before
and/or after the list.

[...]
> >             Use IP with a mark argument to represent an
> >             itemized or enumerated list item, and TP for a definition
> >             list item.  Use IP without arguments to associate
> >             successive paragraphs with an existing list item; to these,
> >             inter-paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.
> 
> Not sure the phrase staring with "to these" should be advertised
> so prominently.  *If* an author chooses to make a list "compact"
> but then kind of contradicts themselves by inserting paragraph
> breaks into individual list items, the behaviour you describe is
> probably what the formatter should do.

I'm not convinced about this detail either.  I think in a compact list
this should not produce a blank line:

	.P
	.LE

But this should:

	.LE
	.P

> But authors ought to be strongly discouraged from doing that.
> When one or more items of your list are so complicated that they
> require more than one paragraph of text, making your list "compact"
> makes no sense in the first place and will result in ugly and
> confusing typography.

+1

> To summarize, after reviewing the design of .LS/.LE, my first
> impression is that it is likely a small-value, small-harm
> addition.  I think i will support them in mandoc(1) -man when
> i find the time, but not emit them from mandoc(1) -T man, at least
> not for many years to come, because the whole point of that output
> mode is dealing with operating systems that use ancient
> manual page formatters, and those are unlikely to support .LS/.LE.

Makes sense.

> Chances are the the deeper scrutiny that will be necessary to
> implement .LS/.LE in mandoc(1) may lead to additional criticism;
> or if we are lucky, it may not.


Have a lovely day!
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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configure separate from make or not (was: Using LS/LE)

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Ingo,

> Date: 2026-08-29 11:39:20+0200
> From: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de>
>
[...]
> 
> I think the main reason why build system developers don't usually
> run configure automatically from the Makefile is that from a user
> perspective, it makes sense to keep the two steps "inspect the
> configuration and make some decisions, but do not start building
> anything just yet" and "build the stuff, using the variables and
> decisions made at the configure stage" separate.  Users may even
> want to pause between the two steps, consider the decisions made,
> for example by inspecting configure output files like config.h
> or Makefile.local or, in case serious debugging is needed, config.log
> and maybe even change some of the decisions manually and re-run
> configure, even though autoconf(1) makes both steps, inspection
> and manipulation of decisions, gratuitiously hard, both by spewing
> vast amounts of noise and by the ./configure script being next to
> unreadable.  But saner, better-written configure scripts can make
> both inspection and manipulation quite simple and pleasant.
>
> Running the configure script automatically from the Makefile
> would remove this opportunity for inspection and tweaking.

In the Linux man-pages, the configure step is done entirely within
make(1) --there's no separate ./configure step--.  But as you say,
a separate configure-only step is important for serious debugging.

The solution I implemented is a 'nothing' target in the Makefile, which
as the name implies, does nothing.  However, it still runs the
configuration step, since that runs as part of parsing the makefiles.
Here's the rule:

	nothing:;

When I need to debug the build system itself, I run that target; often
with special flags for debugging.  One common command I use when I need
to do this kind of debugging is:

	$ make -p nothing | less

And if I need to see stderr output from the commands used by the
configure scripts, here's a common command:

	$ make HIDE_ERR= nothing

I'm not saying that this should be done, but this _can_ be done.  With
BSD make(1), it might be more difficult to debug, since it doesn't have
the -p flag.  But the output from configure tests can still be read
without building anything, with a dummy 'nothing' rule.


Have a lovely day!
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: configure separate from make or not

[Ingo Schwarze]

[trimming Cc:, this starts becoming off-topic on the groff list;
 i'm not subscribed to linux-man@ though]

Hi Alejandro,

Alejandro Colomar wrote on Sat, Aug 29, 2026 at 03:10:25PM +0200:
> From: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de>

> In the Linux man-pages, the configure step is done entirely within
> make(1) --there's no separate ./configure step--.  But as you say,
> a separate configure-only step is important for serious debugging.
> 
> The solution I implemented is a 'nothing' target in the Makefile, which
> as the name implies, does nothing.  However, it still runs the
> configuration step, since that runs as part of parsing the makefiles.

That sounds like a serious abuse of the parsing step to me.
I mean, the whole point of a parsing step is to do parsing and to
build dependency trees, but not to run code.  The purpose of the
execution phase of make(1) then is to run code, in an order determined
from the dependency tree.

> Here's the rule:
> 
> 	nothing:;
> 
> When I need to debug the build system itself, I run that target; often
> with special flags for debugging.  One common command I use when I need
> to do this kind of debugging is:
> 
> 	$ make -p nothing | less

The output of that command looks completely unreadable to me and
is of horrendous size:

   $ gmake -pR nothing | wc
  bash: line 1: gcc: command not found
  realpath: unknown option -- m
  usage: realpath [-q] file
  gmake: warning: undefined variable 'GNUMAKEFLAGS'
   34074  672611 27635924

Over 25 MB of configuration output?  Seriously?


> And if I need to see stderr output from the commands used by the
> configure scripts, here's a common command:
> 
> 	$ make HIDE_ERR= nothing
> 
> I'm not saying that this should be done, but this _can_ be done.  With
> BSD make(1), it might be more difficult to debug, since it doesn't have
> the -p flag.

It does.  From the OpenBSD make(1) manual:

   -p    Print a dump of the target rules and variables on stdout.  Do not
         build anything.

   -d flags
         Turn on debugging, and specify which portions of make are to
         print debugging information.  flags is one or more of the
         following:

         [only quoting the flags here, without the descriptions,
          for brevity]

         AacdDef g1 g2 hiklmnpqstTv

However, reading the output from a simple configure script is much
simpler than reading make(1) debugging output, for example:
 
   $ ./configure
  file config.log: writing...
  file configure.local: reading...
  tested operating system: OpenBSD -> OSENUM=MANDOC_OS_OPENBSD
  tested cc -W: tested noop: yes
  selected CFLAGS="-g -W -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wwrite-strings -Wno-unused-parameter"
  tested noop-static: yes
  selected STATIC="-static"
  tested attribute: yes
  tested cmsg: yes
  tested dirent-namlen: yes
  tested be32toh: yes
  tested be32toh-DSYS_ENDIAN: yes
  tested EFTYPE: yes
  tested err: yes
  tested getline: yes
  tested getsubopt: yes
  tested isblank: yes
  tested mkdtemp: yes
  tested mkstemps: yes
  tested nanosleep: yes
  tested ntohl: yes
  tested O_DIRECTORY: yes
  tested PATH_MAX: yes
  tested pledge: yes
  tested sandbox_init: no (compilation failed)
  tested progname: yes
  tested reallocarray: yes
  tested recallocarray: yes
  tested recvmsg: yes
  tested rewb-bsd: yes
  tested rewb-sysv: yes
  tested strcasestr: yes
  tested stringlist: no (compilation failed)
  tested strlcat: yes
  tested strlcpy: yes
  tested strndup: yes
  tested strptime: yes
  tested strsep: yes
  tested strtonum: yes
  tested unveil: yes
  tested vasprintf: yes
  tested fts-DFTS_COMPARE_CONST: no (compilation failed)
  tested fts: yes
  tested less: yes
  selected BINM_PAGER=less
  tested less -T: yes
  selected UTF8_LOCALE=en_US.UTF-8
  tested wchar-DUTF8_LOCALE="en_US.UTF-8": yes
  tested ohash: no (compilation failed)
  tested ohash-lutil: yes
  selected LDADD="   -lutil -lz"
  file config.h: written
  file Makefile.local: written

and then you can inspect config.h and Makefile.local for generated
settings and inspect config.log if serious debugging is needed.

 $ wc config.h Makefile.local config.log
      54     150    1326 config.h
      40     137    1026 Makefile.local
     305    1401   12998 config.log
     399    1688   15350 total

Even the "total" is half a permille of the output volume 
from the gmake -p you recommend - and that already includes *all*
the debugging information, whereas in your 25 MB of gmake -p output,
i was unable to find the reason why the build systems tries to use gcc(1)
even though i don't have GCC installed.  Generally, searching in that
monster is next to impossble because it contains very large numbers
of extremely long lines, each of which contains basically all the
words that one might possibly wish to search for.

> But the output from configure tests can still be read
> without building anything, with a dummy 'nothing' rule.

I briefly tried to read man-pages/GNUmakefile but quickly gave up
because it feels impossible to follow the control flow.
The program fails to explicitly say which targets it runs
with which dependencies, IMHO making it unreadable for a human.

Yours,
  Ingo

Re: Using LS/LE

[G. Branden Robinson]

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Hi Ingo & Alex,

At 2026-08-29T13:34:55+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> G. Branden Robinson wrote on Fri, Aug 28, 2026 at 11:36:15PM -0500:
> > At 2026-08-24T00:31:07+0200, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> 
> >> I don't yet understand what the point of .LS is
> 
> > I have articulated clearly several specific points about it.  I
> > initially had the idea for LS/LE as early as December 2022.
> > 
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2022-12/msg00075.html
> > 
> > At that time, I got no feedback on my proposal,
> 
> If i remember correctly, i read that message as "i don't have clear
> goals, i don't have clear plans, and i don't see much need",
> so i saw no need to respond.

Fair enough.  I shelved the item for over 3 years and finally it
accumulated enough of all three to be actionable.

> > which I interpreted as indifference.
> > That's the usual fate of my proposals.  ;-)
> 
> Well, sometimes some people (including myself) do consider your
> proposals.  :)
> 
> > For example:
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-07/msg00096.html
> 
> I missed that one, i wasn't around much in July.
> Not sure whether that's needed from a general-purpose typesetting
> perspective, i would have to think about that.

[begin brief excursion off of LS/LE]

That's the whole point of it.  The context of the argument between Deri
and me was driven by his enhancement of the ms(7) package to better
support PDF features, including internal bookmarks.  It's long been a
goal to do the same for all of groff's full-service macro packages,
which basically means tackling me(7) and mm(7) as well, since mom(7)
already has such support.

> For manual pages, that .ref proposal sounds like massive
> overengineering.

There's more to groff's world than man pages.

I'm snipping the rest of this paragraph because your focus is
misdirected.  If we ever need hyperlinked internal bookmarks in man
pages, mdoc(7) already has `Sx` and I have no problem adding a `SX` to
man(7).

The point of the machinery is to solve the forward reference problem.
You are essentially saying that _any_ two-pass assembler is "massively
overengineered" compared to a one-pass one.

That is not the consensus of the field.

A one-pass assembler simply cannot resolve forward references.  It has
only "errata".  Achieving with a second design what was flatly
impossible for the first does not constitute "overengineering" to me.

What decides the issue is your selection of problems to solve.

[end brief excursion off of LS/LE]

> > Earlier this year, after list nesting caused Alex pain again,
> 
> Oh yes, that is true.  The man(7) language doesn't really support
> nested lists well.

Right.

> > and having gotten more familiar with the bash(1) man page source,
> > I consulted with Alex, Pádraig Brady (GNU coreutils),
> > Stephen Gildea (help2man), and Chet Ramey (GNU Bash) regarding
> > its interface, semantics, and goals.
> 
> >> - in my experience, assembling items from .IP and .TP blocks to
> >> form lists is *not* among the problems the man(7) language causes -
> >> quite to the contrary,
> 
> > Assembling a list is not difficult.   Exercising control over
> > indentation and inter-paragraph spacing (even just to turn it on and
> > shut it off) as they apply to the items of lists, especially when
> > nested, can get quite tedious.
> 
> Again, that is true.
> 
> The mandoc(1) -T man output mode uses .RS at the beginning and .RE
> at the end of each list to set up the indentation, and in nested
> lists, it uses .RS after the end of an inner list to get back to
> the indentation of the outer list.  It uses .PD 0 whenever
> following paragraph(s) want no leading vertical space and .PD with
> no arguments whenever following paragraphs want normal vertical
> spacing again.
> 
> That being tedious is a direct consequence of man(7) being more of
> a presentational than semantic language.

Right, and when a machine takes care of the tedium, that's just about
bearable.  But it's not when a human has to handle the tedium.

> >> even though HTML is a strongly structural and semantic language,
> >> assembling even HTML code from .IP and .TP is a almost never a
> >> problem, and i don't see which other target format could possibly
> >> be harder to handle than HTML.
> 
> > I don't disagree there.  To get groff man(7) to generate <ol>, <ul>,
> > and <dl> elements as desired, I'm going to have to make
> 
> Well, mandoc -man -T html already generates (see man_html.c) <dl>
> or <ul> from .IP and .TP, since 2019:
> 
>   date: 2019/03/02 16:29:49;  author: schwarze;  lines: +68 -16
>   Represent multiple subsequent .IP blocks having a consistent
>   head argument of *, \-, or \(bu as <ul> rather than as <dl>,
>   using a bit of heuristics.
> 
>   Basic idea suggested by Dagfinn Ilmari Mannsaker <ilmari at github>
>   in https://github.com/Debian/debiman/issues/67 and independently by
>   <Pali dot Rohar at gmail dot com> on <discuss at mandoc dot bsd dot
>   lv>.

Acknowledged.  I didn't want to use heuristics.  To quote the Tao^WZen
of Python: "Explicit is better than implicit."[1]

> > groff's documentation attempts to motivate the macros' presence.
> > 
> > groff_man(7):
> >    List enclosure macros
> >      Enclose paragraphing macros between LS and LE to identify them
> >      as list items.  Doing so can mark them as "compact", ease
> >      management of their indentation, and supply hints to the output
> >      driver to improve their rendering (as with HTML).  Lists can be
> >      nested.  (Sub)sectioning macro calls, and the end of the
> >      document, close all open lists.
> 
> Do you recommend closing open lists before ending the section,
> or do you recommend dropping the .LE if it happens to be at the end
> of a section?

I make no recommendation here.  Personally I follow the aforementioned
Zen of Python in man(7) composition.  Or would, if I had cause to use
nested lists in groff's own man pages.  I haven't yet.

> This sentence sounds like the latter.

No, I'm not trying to imply a preference for either.  If I ever have a
reason to recommend one practice over the other, I will do so.  Until
then, my intention is simply to observe the community and see what
patterns arise in use.

> I would probably strongly recommend the former and have the macro set
> warn about missing .LE because many years of experience show that
> forgotten list end macros are a widespread oversight among manual page
> authors, often causing the list to run further than intended.
> For that reason, having the warning about missing .LE seems
> important.

I would agree if `LS`/`LE` weren't designed to be harmlessly skippable
by the many implementations that don't recognize them, including
previous versions of groff and mandoc(1).

> >      These macros are GNU extensions.
> 
> Using these macros is probably less disruptive than using .MR,
> because lack of support in the formatter will only ruin spacing
> and indentation but not corrupt the text.  Considering that the
> benefit of .LS/.LE is relatively minor, it was indeed important
> to choose such a conservative design.

Yes, that's my view.

> >      .LS type [compactness [indentation]]
> 
> What is the logical reason for requiring that, to specify the
> indentation, you also need to specify the compactness?

* Employing a compactness flag is what kills off 99%+ of all uses I have
  observed of the `PD` macro.  I seek to exterminate `PD`.

* The man(7) writer can always specify an indentation explicitly as an
  argument to the `IP` and `TP` calls comprising the list items, and
  many will anyway, either for portability to mandoc(1) and older groff,
  or because they're simply accustomed to doing so.

* In many cases I find explicit specification of an indentation amount
  to be unnecessary.  A man(7) author should refrain from doing so
  unless readers are confused by the default indentation.  That will be
  rare.  There _is_ a population of man(7) authors, including myself in
  groff's man pages, who wish to fiddle the typography with precision.
  But that population is small.  I'm trying to nudge the bulk of man(7)
  authors who _don't_ care about those details, and who often resent
  writing a man page at all, from specifying parameters they will tell
  you out loud that they don't care about.  If they feel forced to
  choose a value, they will much more often than not pick a lousy one,
  because there _is_ an art to laying out a page, and artistry demands
  intention, practice, and taste.

* Contriving a new syntax for man(7) macro arguments, like mdoc(7)'s
  `-centered`, `-filled`, `-literal`, `-ragged`, and so forth, which
  look like X11-style Unix command-line options, is a major anti-goal of
  mine.  Nothing in man(7) looks like that and I mean not to make it
  start.  In fact I think this is a bad idea in macro package design
  because the superficial resemblance to the Unix command line is
  misleading and will be overinterpreted by users.  I deplore mm(7) and
  especially mdoc(7) for chasing this blinkered pseudosymmetry.

  man(7)'s macro argument handling is simple and positional, and I mean
  to keep it that way.

* I'm already having to innovate more than I care for with the "literal
  word" argument in the first position, "definition", "enumerated", or
  "itemized".  In 1979 this certainly would have been spelled using an
  integer mapping, or maybe by abbreviation to a single letter.  But
  such an encoding is a bad idea, driven by the punitive nature of
  operating a Teletype machine as a terminal.  By using a whole English
  word, the reader can likely infer what the macro call is doing even if
  they never read the package's man page.

  On a related note, Ada and modern Fortran use language keywords
  excellently.  C and C++ use them horribly; practitioners of these
  language pride themselves on knowing what `static`, `restrict` and
  `auto` mean in multiple contexts and across revisions of the language
  standard.  If we were honest, we'd recognize ourselves as objects of
  pity, having cheerfully invited Ritchie and Stroustrup to bury axe
  blades in our skulls, and then touting our ability to endure pointless
  punishment as a personal virtue to prospective tech sector employers.

> >             (since groff 1.25) Start (or open) a list.  type is one
> >             of "definition", "enumerated", or "itemized".
> >             compactness is a Boolean value directing suppression of
> >             inter-paragraph spacing between list items.
> 
> That sounds very confusing.  Does "Boolean" mean: either the string
> "0" or the string "1"?  Or what would "true" or "false" mean?  Then,
> "Boolean value directing suppression" sounds vaguely as if "1" might
> mean "suppress", but that's not expressed unambiguously.

You're right; this is the only occurrence of "Boolean" in groff_man(7)
and I need to fix that.  I was carrying over a practice from my
revisions to the groff_mm(7) page, where integral, Boolean-valued
macro arguments are idiomatic.  I'll clarify this.  Thanks!

> Finally, why only *between* list items?  Why not *before each*
> list item?

Because there is already a mechanism for achieving that.

> Would suppressing the vertical spacing before the first list item
> still require .PD 0 *in addition* to "compact"?

No, `.PD 0` is never required under this design; this was an essential
trait since one of my objectives is to exterminate the `PD` macro in the
wild.

One can still _use_ `PD` calls in parallel with `LS`/`LE` if one likes,
and I expect bash(1) to do so, assuming Chet doesn't get cold feet on
using `LS`/`LE` at all.

But, if you mess up your `PD` calls such that compactness breaks, that's
on you.

> >             indentation specifies an indentation amount for the body
> >             of each list item; it is then unnecessary to specify
> >             this argument to the list item macros.
> 
> That sounds as if the syntax of "indentation" is probably the same
> as for the .IP and .TP "width" argument, but that is not clearly
> stated.  So, what is the syntax?

One can profitably look at the `IP` and `TP` macro descriptions in the
same document and perceive the parallel usage.

     .TP [indentation]
            Set an indented paragraph with a leading unindented tag.
            The macro plants a one‐line input trap that honors the \c
            escape sequence; text on the next line becomes the tag, set
            without indentation.  Text on subsequent lines is indented
            by indentation, if specified, and by the amount of the IN
            register otherwise.  If the tag, plus the “tag spacing”
            stored in the TS register (see section “Options” below) is
            wider than the indentation, the package breaks the line
            after the tag.
...
     .IP [mark [indentation]]
            Set an indented paragraph with an optional mark.  Arguments,
            if present, are handled as with TP, except that the mark
            argument to IP cannot include a macro call, and the tag
            separation amount stored in the TS register is not enforced.

> >             Use IP with a mark argument to represent an itemized or
> >             enumerated list item, and TP for a definition list item.
> >             Use IP without arguments to associate successive
> >             paragraphs with an existing list item; to these,
> >             inter-paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists.
> 
> Not sure the phrase staring with "to these" should be advertised so
> prominently.  *If* an author chooses to make a list "compact" but then
> kind of contradicts themselves by inserting paragraph breaks into
> individual list items, the behaviour you describe is probably what the
> formatter should do.
> 
> But authors ought to be strongly discouraged from doing that.  When
> one or more items of your list are so complicated that they require
> more than one paragraph of text, making your list "compact" makes no
> sense in the first place and will result in ugly and confusing
> typography.

This detail was motivated by the presence of this exact pattern in the
bash(1) man page, which does indeed employ multi-paragraph compact list
items.

I am mindful of my distinct roles as groff maintainer and macro package
programmer on the one hand, and as a coach/advisor on man page
composition practices on the other.

Put differently, I have implemented `LS`/`LE` to provide mechanism.  I
cannot use that mechanism to dictate policy; only to make "good policy"
easier to practice.

> To summarize, after reviewing the design of .LS/.LE, my first
> impression is that it is likely a small-value, small-harm
> addition.

I agree.  Most man(7) documents don't mess with nested lists.  But I
needed a non-heuristic means to smuggle semantic information about list
properties to the grohtml(1) output driver, and saw a couple of other
birds I could kill with the same stone.

> I think i will support them in mandoc(1) -man when
> i find the time, but not emit them from mandoc(1) -T man, at least
> not for many years to come, because the whole point of that output
> mode is dealing with operating systems that use ancient
> manual page formatters, and those are unlikely to support .LS/.LE.

That sounds fine, but, hmm, if you're already heuristically computing
when to bracket list items with `.PD 0` and `.PD`, you're already doing
most of the work it would take to emit `LS` and `LE`.

But I don't think it matters much.

> Chances are the the deeper scrutiny that will be necessary to
> implement .LS/.LE in mandoc(1) may lead to additional criticism;
> or if we are lucky, it may not.

Fingers crossed.

At 2026-08-29T14:51:44+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> Hi Ingo,
> 
> > Date: 2026-08-29 13:34:55+0200
> > From: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de>
> >
> [...]
> > The mandoc(1) -T man output mode uses
> > [...]
> 
> Oh, there's a -Tman mode!  That's interesting!  Some years ago,
> I wondered whether groff(1) could have a -Troff mode, which would
> evaluate the man(7) (or any other -m macros, FWIW) macros without
> formatting the document.

I know of no troff that permits this.  In interpretation mode (that is,
"not copy mode"), interpolation and transformation of tokens to nodes
are both operations that occur at the earliest possible opportunity
while interpreting the input stream.

In the past year or so I have revised groff's Texinfo manual to give the
formatter's internals better coverage.

---snip---
5.37 GNU 'troff' Internals
==========================

GNU 'troff' processes input in three steps.  It gathers one or more
input characters into a "token",(1) (*note GNU troff
Internals-Footnote-1::) the smallest meaningful unit of 'troff' input.
The process of formatting translates tokens into nodes that populate a
pending output line (recall *note Manipulating Filling and
Adjustment::).  A "node" is a data structure representing any object
that may ultimately appear in the output, like a glyph or motion on the
page.  When the pending output line breaks, the formatter applies any
relevant adjustment, line number, and margin character, and finally
appends it to the current diversion.  Periodically, the formatter
"flushes" accumulated output line(s) to the output device, a process
that translates each node into a device-independent output language
representation understood by all output drivers.  Copy mode tokenizes
but does not format; diversions (apart from that at the top level)
format but do not write output.

   For example, GNU 'troff' converts the input 'Gi\[:u]\%seppe' into a
character token for 'g', a character token for 'i', a special character
token for ':u' (representing 'u' with an umlaut), a token encoding a
hyphenation point,(2) (*note GNU troff Internals-Footnote-2::) and
further character tokens.  You can observe this process by storing the
foregoing input into a string--which, because its contents are read in
copy mode, is only tokenized, not formatted--and dumping it with the
'pm' request.(3)  (*note GNU troff Internals-Footnote-3::) (Using
'printf(1)' requires us to double the '\' and '%' characters.)

     $ printf '.ds str Gi\\[:u]\\%%seppe\n.pm str\n' \
         | groff 2>&1 | jq

   Similarly, we can observe the details of the formatting process by
interpolating the string, or supplying its contents directly as input,
and invoking the 'pline' request.

     $ printf 'Gi\\[:u]\\%%seppe\n.pline\n' | groff -z 2>&1 | jq

   We now see a list of nodes, including an output line start node,
several glyph nodes, a discretionary break node containing a glyph node
for the special character ':u' _and_ a glyph node for the special
character 'hy' (hyphen), and a word space node at the end corresponding
to the newline at the end of input.(4)  (*note GNU troff
Internals-Footnote-4::)

   If we change 'G' to 'f', we see that the first two glyph nodes, for
'f' and 'i', become contained by a ligature node (provided the current
font has a glyph for this ligature).  All output glyph nodes are
"processed", which means that they are associated with a given font,
type size, advance width, and so forth.
...
---end snip----

GNU troff's ability to recursively dump string/macro/diversion,
user-defined character, and pending output line contents as a forest of
JSON nodes was a major new feature of groff 1.24.

It's not the same thing by any means as a "wholly macro expanded
document", but given how dynamic a language *roff is, I'm not sure the
goal you had in mind is possible.  A language theorist might be able to
help me devise a proof one way or the other.

Nevertheless, the recursive node dumping feature, as with other new
debugging requests in groff 1.24, forces the formatter to disclose the
truth about its internal state to a degree unprecedented in *roff.

(I'll just be shampooing out the pomade and taking this plaid blazer off
now, thanks.)

> [...]
> > Finally, why only *between* list items?  Why not *before each*
> > list item?  Would suppressing the vertical spacing before the first
> > list item still require .PD 0 *in addition* to "compact"?
> 
> The idea, I think, is that if you write '.P' surriounding LS/LS,
> you'll get the outer blanks, and if not, you'll get compactness also
> before and/or after the list.

Yes.

> > Not sure the phrase staring with "to these" should be advertised
> > so prominently.  *If* an author chooses to make a list "compact"
> > but then kind of contradicts themselves by inserting paragraph
> > breaks into individual list items, the behaviour you describe is
> > probably what the formatter should do.
> 
> I'm not convinced about this detail either.  I think in a compact list
> this should not produce a blank line:
> 
> 	.P
> 	.LE
> 
> But this should:
> 
> 	.LE
> 	.P

I disagree.  As presently implemented, they're equivalent.  A `P`
paragraph _does not mark a list item_.  Only `IP` and `TP` do.

I wanted to support the case where a list is interrupted by a paragraph.
It's not uncommon in technical writing.

Here's a contrived example.

$ cat ATTIC/blertch.man
.TH blertch 7 2026-08-29 "Blertch language reference"
.SH Name
blertch \- a fake language for fake programmers
.SH Description
The Blertch language supports the following operators.
.P
.LS definition 1 \" compact
.TP
.B a + b
.TP
.B a \- b
.TP
.B a * b
.TP
.B a / b
.TP
.B a % b
.P
It also supports the unary plus and minus operators.
.P
.TP
.B +a
.TP
.B \-a
.LE
.P
Operator overloading is not implemented.
$ nroff -rLL=72n -man ATTIC/blertch.man
blertch(7)          Miscellaneous Information Manual          blertch(7)

Name
     blertch - a fake language for fake programmers

Description
     The Blertch language supports the following operators.

     a + b
     a - b
     a * b
     a / b
     a % b

     It also supports the unary plus and minus operators.

     +a
     -a

     Operator overloading is not implemented.

Blertch language reference     2026‐08‐29                     blertch(7)

I can imagine a counterargument.

"But why support interrupting the list that way?  It's _really_ two
lists, so the document author should have to close off the first list
with `LE`, do their 'interrupting' paragraph, then start a new list with
`LS`."

I say no.

The purpose of the macro package is to serve the technical writer and
aid them to communicate.  It is not to serve the HTML/XML weenie who
wants all their tags nested in some canonical fashion.  Sometimes,
technological constraints will propagate backward to our language
designs.  But that's a phenomenon to be regretted, not leaned into.

It's certainly possible that, when I revise grohtml(1) to support output
of the foregoing, I'll have to break this into two HTML lists.  If so,
that's fine.  That's where the problem _should_ be solved.  It should
not be back-propagated onto the document author if we can help it.

> > But authors ought to be strongly discouraged from doing that.
> > When one or more items of your list are so complicated that they
> > require more than one paragraph of text, making your list "compact"
> > makes no sense in the first place and will result in ugly and
> > confusing typography.
> 
> +1

Again, this is a matter of policy, not mechanism.  My focus in
implementing this feature is on the latter.

Regards,
Branden

[1] https://peps.python.org/pep-0020/

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Re: configure separate from make or not

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Ingo,

> Date: 2026-08-29 17:31:32+0200
> From: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de>
>
> [trimming Cc:, this starts becoming off-topic on the groff list;
>  i'm not subscribed to linux-man@ though]
> 
> Hi Alejandro,
> 
> Alejandro Colomar wrote on Sat, Aug 29, 2026 at 03:10:25PM +0200:
> > From: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de>
> 
> > In the Linux man-pages, the configure step is done entirely within
> > make(1) --there's no separate ./configure step--.  But as you say,
> > a separate configure-only step is important for serious debugging.
> > 
> > The solution I implemented is a 'nothing' target in the Makefile, which
> > as the name implies, does nothing.  However, it still runs the
> > configuration step, since that runs as part of parsing the makefiles.
> 
> That sounds like a serious abuse of the parsing step to me.
> I mean, the whole point of a parsing step is to do parsing and to
> build dependency trees, but not to run code.

The main thing I run code for in the makefiles is for listing all the
source files.  Here's an example:

	$ grepc -xmk -tv -n MANPAGES share/mk/
	share/mk/src/man.mk:20:MANPAGES ::= $(shell $(FIND) $(MANDIR)/* -type f \
			| $(GREP) -E '$(MANEXT)' \
			| $(SORTMAN) \
			| $(SED) 's,:,\\:,g')

I know you prefer to list them manually, but I like this little bit
of magic (it's not that magic, since it's written in the code, but
admittedly, if you're not used to this build system, it's hard to
expect it).

> The purpose of the
> execution phase of make(1) then is to run code, in an order determined
> from the dependency tree.
> 
> > Here's the rule:
> > 
> > 	nothing:;
> > 
> > When I need to debug the build system itself, I run that target; often
> > with special flags for debugging.  One common command I use when I need
> > to do this kind of debugging is:
> > 
> > 	$ make -p nothing | less
> 
> The output of that command looks completely unreadable to me and
> is of horrendous size:
> 
>    $ gmake -pR nothing | wc
>   bash: line 1: gcc: command not found
>   realpath: unknown option -- m
>   usage: realpath [-q] file
>   gmake: warning: undefined variable 'GNUMAKEFLAGS'
>    34074  672611 27635924
> 
> Over 25 MB of configuration output?  Seriously?

Hmmm, I would like it to be less.  I've been thinking about ideas to
cut it down a little bit (at least one order of magnitude).

The thing is, we have 1.5k non-link pages, and we use absolute paths
in most variables.  Thus, each variable can hold around 100kB for the
paths:

	$ find man/ -type f | xargs grep -l '^\.TH' | xargs realpath | wc -c
	106833

'make help-list-targets' lists 119 .PHONY targets, of which most require
at least one variable for holding the actual file targets.  A simple
multiplication and rounding says there's 100x100k = 10M in these path
variables.  Then 25 MB sounds not far from that.

I think I might be able to optimize this down by using relative paths.
I might be able to optimize this a bit further by using suffix rules
as much as possible, instead of listing all targets in the rules again.
But there's a hard floor.  It should be hard to go much below current
size, at least without reducing targets.

I tried removing some targets, out of curiosity, to see how much size
they contribute:

	$ rm -rf share/mk/lint/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/check/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/build/examples/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/build/catman/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/build/fonts/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/build/html/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/build/pdf/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/build/ps/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/build/pre/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/dist/check/
	$ rm -rf share/mk/install/html.mk 
	$ rm -rf share/mk/install/pdf/

After that, the output of 'make -p nothing' goes down to ~ 1/7.5 of the
original size.  This is still sufficient to build and install the pages,
and produce the release tarball.  The rest is for detecting issues in
the pages, the examples, and in the tarball.

The main issue is the large number of files, not the complexity of what
we do with them.  With thousands of pages, the size must remain in MB,
or in the high kB.

> > And if I need to see stderr output from the commands used by the
> > configure scripts, here's a common command:
> > 
> > 	$ make HIDE_ERR= nothing
> > 
> > I'm not saying that this should be done, but this _can_ be done.  With
> > BSD make(1), it might be more difficult to debug, since it doesn't have
> > the -p flag.
> 
> It does.  From the OpenBSD make(1) manual:
> 
>    -p    Print a dump of the target rules and variables on stdout.  Do not
>          build anything.

Oh, I didn't remember each BSD has its own make(1).  I checked bmake(1),
which is available in Debian and doesn't have -p, but that seems to be
NetBSD's make(1).

> 
>    -d flags
>          Turn on debugging, and specify which portions of make are to
>          print debugging information.  flags is one or more of the
>          following:
> 
>          [only quoting the flags here, without the descriptions,
>           for brevity]
> 
>          AacdDef g1 g2 hiklmnpqstTv
> 
> However, reading the output from a simple configure script is much
> simpler than reading make(1) debugging output, for example:
>  
>    $ ./configure
>   file config.log: writing...
>   file configure.local: reading...
>   tested operating system: OpenBSD -> OSENUM=MANDOC_OS_OPENBSD
>   tested cc -W: tested noop: yes
>   selected CFLAGS="-g -W -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wwrite-strings -Wno-unused-parameter"
>   tested noop-static: yes
>   selected STATIC="-static"
>   tested attribute: yes
>   tested cmsg: yes

You could implement this output in a makefile, and it would take as much
code as it takes in a configure script.

You may not like having code that runs before targets (and that's
reasonable, of course), but it also has benefits: having an atomic
configure+make operation, avoids issues due to outdated configure
output; I don't need to 'make clean' anymore, for example.

[...]
> and then you can inspect config.h and Makefile.local for generated
> settings and inspect config.log if serious debugging is needed.
> 
>  $ wc config.h Makefile.local config.log
>       54     150    1326 config.h
>       40     137    1026 Makefile.local
>      305    1401   12998 config.log
>      399    1688   15350 total
> 
> Even the "total" is half a permille of the output volume 
> from the gmake -p you recommend - and that already includes *all*

I don't _recommend_ it.  I just mentioned it as a possibility.
I mentioned it since you had said it was impossible to do it, IIRC.

> the debugging information, whereas in your 25 MB of gmake -p output,
> i was unable to find the reason why the build systems tries to use gcc(1)
> even though i don't have GCC installed.  Generally, searching in that
> monster is next to impossble because it contains very large numbers
> of extremely long lines, each of which contains basically all the
> words that one might possibly wish to search for.

Many lines have it, as there's a directory called .../gcc/, but with a
regex we can get rid of it and show just a bunch of lines:

	$ make -R nothing -p | grep '[^/]gcc'
	make: warning: undefined variable 'GNUMAKEFLAGS'
	CC_VENDOR := gcc
	CPP := gcc -O3 -flto -Wall -Wextra -Werror -Wstrict-prototypes -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wno-reserved-identifier -Wno-unused-macros -Wno-error=unused-parameter -Wno-error=sign-compare -Wno-error=format -Wno-error=uninitialized -fanalyzer  -E
	LD := gcc -O3 -flto -Wall -Wextra -Werror -Wstrict-prototypes -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wno-reserved-identifier -Wno-unused-macros -Wno-error=unused-parameter -Wno-error=sign-compare -Wno-error=format -Wno-error=uninitialized -fanalyzer  -isystem /usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu/bsd -DLIBBSD_OVERLAY -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 
	CC := gcc

CC_VENDOR and/or CC sound suspicious.  Both seem to be defined in the
same file:

	$ grepc -xmk -tv CC_VENDOR share/mk/
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/gcc/cc.mk:CC_VENDOR ::= \
		$(shell \
			$(CC) -v 2>&1 \
			| $(SED) -n '1p;$$p' \
			| $(SED) '/gcc version/s/.*/gcc/' \
			| $(SED) '/clang version/s/.*/clang/' \
			| $(SED) '/Apple LLVM version/s/.*/clang/' \
			| $(GREP) -e '^gcc$$' -e '^clang$$' \
			|| $(ECHO) unknown; \
		)
	$ grepc -xmk -tv CC share/mk/
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/gcc/cc.mk:CC ::= gcc

And so it seems it's CC.  I don't know why I set it to gcc.  I'll fix
it, and set it to just 'cc'.  Thanks for the report!  It seems CC was
previously set as cc, and in 546141e11357 (2024-02-17; "share/mk/:
Reorganize build dependencies") I changed it to gcc, but that seems an
accident.  I've applied this fix:

	commit 294f74eb2a284ecf8772cb0060b85b6d3f9bb7bd
	Author: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
	Date:   2026-08-29 21:42:58 +0200

	    share/mk/: $CC: Use cc(1), not gcc(1)
	    
	    Fixes: 546141e11357 (2024-02-17; "share/mk/: Reorganize build dependencies")
	    Reported-by: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@openbsd.org>
	    Message-ID: <apL7VAruk1bIOr1M@isnote.usta.de>
	    Signed-off-by: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>

	diff --git a/share/mk/configure/build-depends/gcc/cc.mk b/share/mk/configure/build-depends/gcc/cc.mk
	index 80c07b4f4a09..d541e39137a0 100644
	--- a/share/mk/configure/build-depends/gcc/cc.mk
	+++ b/share/mk/configure/build-depends/gcc/cc.mk
	@@ -12,7 +12,7 @@ include $(MAKEFILEDIR)/configure/build-depends/sed/sed.mk
	 
	 
	 ifndef CC
	-CC ::= gcc
	+CC ::= cc
	 endif


> > But the output from configure tests can still be read
> > without building anything, with a dummy 'nothing' rule.
> 
> I briefly tried to read man-pages/GNUmakefile but quickly gave up
> because it feels impossible to follow the control flow.
> The program fails to explicitly say which targets it runs
> with which dependencies, IMHO making it unreadable for a human.

The start point is, as usual, the 'all' target, whose rule is defined
as this:

	all: build;

It has an empty recipe, and depends on the 'build' target.  The 'build'
target is defined under share/mk/:

	$ grepc -xmk -tr -n build share/mk/
	share/mk/build/_.mk:25:build: \
		build-man;

	$ grepc -xmk -tr -n build-man share/mk/
	share/mk/build/man/_.mk:18:build-man: build-man-nonso build-man-so;

	$ grepc -xmk -tr -n build-man-nonso share/mk/
	share/mk/build/man/nonso.mk:32:build-man-nonso: $(_NONSO)

	$ grepc -xmk -tr -n build-man-so share/mk/
	share/mk/build/man/so.mk:24:build-man-so: $(_SO_MAN)

Those are all empty recipes, since they're .PHONY targets.  The real
targets are $(_NONSO) and $(_SO_MAN).

	$ grepc -xmk -tr -n _NONSO share/mk/
	share/mk/build/man/nonso.mk:18:_NONSO ::= $(patsubst $(MANDIR)/%, $(_MANDIR)/%, $(NONSO))
	share/mk/build/man/nonso.mk:21:$(_NONSO): $(_MANDIR)/%: $(MANDIR)/% $(MK) | $$(@D)/
		$(info	$(INFO_)SED		$@)
		<$< \
		$(SED) "/^\.TH /s/(date)/$$($(MANPAGEDATECMD))/" \
		| $(SED) '/^\.TH /s/(unreleased)/$(DISTVERSION)/' \
		| $(SED) '/^\.Dd /s/$$Mdocdate$$'"/$$($(MANPAGEDATECMD))/" \
		| $(SED) '/^\.Os /s/(unreleased)/$(DISTVERSION)/' \
		>$@

	$ grepc -xmk -tr -n _SO_MAN share/mk/
	share/mk/build/man/so.mk:15:_SO_MAN ::= $(patsubst $(MANDIR)/%, $(_MANDIR)/%, $(SO_MAN))
	share/mk/build/man/so.mk:18:$(_SO_MAN): $(_MANDIR)/%: $(MANDIR)/% $(MK) | $$(@D)/
		$(info	$(INFO_)CP		$@)
		$(CP) -T $< $@

The latter copies .so pages as is, while the former takes the non-link
pages and edits the date and version, with values gotten from git(1).
We can also follow that:

	$ grepc -xmk -tv -n MANPAGEDATECMD share/mk/
	share/mk/configure/version.mk:62:MANPAGEDATECMD = $(GIT) log --format=%cs -1 -- $< $(HIDE_ERR)

	$ grepc -xmk -tv -n VERSION share/mk/
	share/mk/configure/version.mk:23:VERSION       ::= $(shell $(GIT) describe --dirty | $(SED) 's/$(projname)-//')

That's all that runs through the 'all' target.

Then there's stuff that runs prior to it, for initializing some
variables, but that should not produce any lasting effects, so it should
be more or less unimportant (unless you want to debug stuff, and then
 you need to see the output of -p to learn it).  You can check
everything that runs before any targets, by grepping for '$(shell '
under share/mk/:

	$ grep -rn '$(shell ' share/mk/
	share/mk/src/man.mk:20:MANPAGES ::= $(shell $(FIND) $(MANDIR)/* -type f \
	share/mk/src/man.mk:26:MANINTROPAGES ::= $(shell $(FIND) $(MANDIR)/* -type f \
	share/mk/src/man.mk:45:NONSO ::= $(shell $(FIND) $(MANDIR)/* -type f \
	share/mk/src/sh.mk:16:BIN_sh ::= $(shell $(FIND) $(SRCBINDIR) -type f \
	share/mk/dist/files.mk:21:DISTFILES    ::= $(shell $(DISTFILESCMD) | $(SED) 's,:,\\:,g')
	share/mk/dist/files.mk:29:	$(shell \
	share/mk/configure/version.mk:23:VERSION       ::= $(shell $(GIT) describe --dirty | $(SED) 's/$(projname)-//')
	share/mk/configure/version.mk:58:DISTDATE ::= $(shell $(DISTDATECMD))
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/cpp/cpp.mk:22:	$(shell \
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/cpp/cpp.mk:31:	$(shell $(PKGCONF_CMD) --cflags $(PKGCONF_LIBS) $(HIDE_ERR))
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/groff-base/nroff.mk:20:NROFF_LINE_LENGTH    ::= $(shell $(EXPR) $(MANWIDTH) - 2)
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/groff-base/nroff.mk:24:	$(shell $(LOCALE) charmap \
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/binutils/ld.mk:22:	$(shell \
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/binutils/ld.mk:35:	$(shell $(PKGCONF_CMD) --libs-only-L $(PKGCONF_LIBS) $(HIDE_ERR)) \
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/binutils/ld.mk:36:	$(shell $(PKGCONF_CMD) --libs-only-other $(PKGCONF_LIBS) $(HIDE_ERR))
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/binutils/ld.mk:52:	$(shell $(PKGCONF_CMD) --libs-only-l $(PKGCONF_LIBS) $(HIDE_ERR))
	share/mk/configure/build-depends/gcc/cc.mk:20:	$(shell \

The order in which these run is unspecified (there are obvious
dependencies, if one variable uses the results of another, though), but
if you're interested in auditing everything that may run with
'make nothing' (and thus with every run of make(1), with any targets),
this would be the list.


Have a lovely night!
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: Using LS/LE

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Branden,

> Date: 2026-08-29 14:16:39-0500
> From: "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com>
>
[...]
> > > The mandoc(1) -T man output mode uses
> > > [...]
> > 
> > Oh, there's a -Tman mode!  That's interesting!  Some years ago,
> > I wondered whether groff(1) could have a -Troff mode, which would
> > evaluate the man(7) (or any other -m macros, FWIW) macros without
> > formatting the document.
> 
> I know of no troff that permits this.  In interpretation mode (that is,
> "not copy mode"), interpolation and transformation of tokens to nodes
> are both operations that occur at the earliest possible opportunity
> while interpreting the input stream.
> 
> In the past year or so I have revised groff's Texinfo manual to give the
> formatter's internals better coverage.
> 
> ---snip---
[...]
> ---end snip----
> 
> GNU troff's ability to recursively dump string/macro/diversion,
> user-defined character, and pending output line contents as a forest of
> JSON nodes was a major new feature of groff 1.24.
> 
> It's not the same thing by any means as a "wholly macro expanded
> document", but given how dynamic a language *roff is, I'm not sure the
> goal you had in mind is possible.  A language theorist might be able to
> help me devise a proof one way or the other.
> 
> Nevertheless, the recursive node dumping feature, as with other new
> debugging requests in groff 1.24, forces the formatter to disclose the
> truth about its internal state to a degree unprecedented in *roff.
> 
> (I'll just be shampooing out the pomade and taking this plaid blazer off
> now, thanks.)

I'll keep poking you about it from time to time, hoping some day you'll
have the internal tools to implement this.  :)

[...]
> Description
>      The Blertch language supports the following operators.
> 
>      a + b
>      a - b
>      a * b
>      a / b
>      a % b
> 
>      It also supports the unary plus and minus operators.
> 
>      +a
>      -a
> 
>      Operator overloading is not implemented.
> 
> Blertch language reference     2026‐08‐29                     blertch(7)
> 
> I can imagine a counterargument.
> 
> "But why support interrupting the list that way?  It's _really_ two
> lists, so the document author should have to close off the first list
> with `LE`, do their 'interrupting' paragraph, then start a new list with
> `LS`."

Indeed, I believe this is two lists.

> I say no.
> 
> The purpose of the macro package is to serve the technical writer and
> aid them to communicate.  It is not to serve the HTML/XML weenie who
> wants all their tags nested in some canonical fashion.  Sometimes,
> technological constraints will propagate backward to our language
> designs.  But that's a phenomenon to be regretted, not leaned into.

Hmmmm, I'm not convinced we should support this, but I don't care too
much about it either.


Have a lovely night!
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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Re: configure separate from make or not

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Ingo,

> Date: 2026-08-29 22:49:08+0200
> From: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
>
[...]
>
> The main thing I run code for in the makefiles is for listing all the
> source files.  Here's an example:
> 
> 	$ grepc -xmk -tv -n MANPAGES share/mk/
> 	share/mk/src/man.mk:20:MANPAGES ::= $(shell $(FIND) $(MANDIR)/* -type f \
> 			| $(GREP) -E '$(MANEXT)' \
> 			| $(SORTMAN) \
> 			| $(SED) 's,:,\\:,g')
> 
> I know you prefer to list them manually, but I like this little bit
> of magic (it's not that magic, since it's written in the code, but
> admittedly, if you're not used to this build system, it's hard to
> expect it).

BTW, the git repository is tracking 3387 files (at the moment, and
growing), and thus the distribution tarball contains that many files.
Given this amount of files, I find it more maintainable using scripts
instead of hard-coded lists.  I could have a hard-coded list, and
regularly diff it with the output of find(1), but I prefer using find(1)
directly in the makefiles.  Also, I wouldn't want to have 80k of
Makefile text that is the output of a command:

	$ git ls-files | wc -c
	80511

We already have quite heavy makefiles, at around 100k, and that would
duplicate their size.

[...]
> The thing is, we have 1.5k non-link pages, and we use absolute paths
> in most variables.  Thus, each variable can hold around 100kB for the
> paths:
> 
> 	$ find man/ -type f | xargs grep -l '^\.TH' | xargs realpath | wc -c
> 	106833
> 
> 'make help-list-targets' lists 119 .PHONY targets, of which most require
> at least one variable for holding the actual file targets.  A simple
> multiplication and rounding says there's 100x100k = 10M in these path
> variables.  Then 25 MB sounds not far from that.
> 
> I think I might be able to optimize this down by using relative paths.
> I might be able to optimize this a bit further by using suffix rules
> as much as possible, instead of listing all targets in the rules again.
> But there's a hard floor.  It should be hard to go much below current
> size, at least without reducing targets.

Self-correction: we're not using absolute paths; they're relative.
It seems I had already implemented this optimization, and I didn't
remember.  Anyway, relative paths don't change much.  The best gain
would come from using suffix rules, which would save a few variables
entirely.


Have a lovely day!
Alex

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es>

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