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From: Howard Chu <hyc@symas.com>
To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net>
Cc: Michael Concannon <mike@concannon.net>,
	Chase Venters <chase.venters@clientec.com>,
	Marc Perkel <marc@perkel.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: what's next for the linux kernel?
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:05:18 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4345C9CE.4060101@symas.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20051006212001.GZ10538@lkcl.net>

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>
>  ... but heck - we do configuration of pretty much every major service
>  under the sun out of ldap, don't we?
>
>  and openldap itself just got the ability to read its own
>  config out of its own database, right?
>
>  it's not _that_ far off, not _that_ unachievable, s/ldap/registry. 

I think both you and Michael have interesting points on this topic. Fyi, 
OpenLDAP now has dynamic config (accessible/modifiable via LDAP) but the 
backing store is still a bunch of flat files. There were two objectives 
here - (1) make every knob tunable via LDAP, and (2) don't prevent an 
admin from fixing things with vi if they have to. I've spent too many 
times rescuing systems in single-user mode with only /bin/sh, to ever 
commit to using a binary config database.

Yes, KISS is a good policy, you just have to understand what the 'It' is 
that you're talking about in each instance. Putting a filesystem driver 
on top of a registry.dat file seems to provide a simple user interface, 
so it *looks* like you're adhering to KISS, but the innards are still 
both complex and fragile. Hell, even the simplest filesystem driver you 
can write is a couple hundred lines of code.

The LDAP-enabled config engine in OpenLDAP looks more structured / more 
complex than the old flat slapd.conf file, but under the covers it's all 
still plain text. In one case, you're taking something very complex and 
putting a simple cover on it, in the other you have very simple building 
blocks and put a complex / richer interface on top of it. Guess which 
design is more likely to keep functioning in the face of a system failure.

The Unix programming philosophy is about taking small simple tools and 
combining them to perform more complex tasks. You could say it's one of 
the world's earliest object-oriented UIs. If you don't keep that in 
mind, and try to build complexity in starting at your most basic 
building blocks on the bottom (i.e., the kernel) then you're going to 
have a nightmare trying to keep anything you build on top of it working. 
One only need look at MS Windows to see how true this is.

-- 
  -- Howard Chu
  Chief Architect, Symas Corp.  http://www.symas.com
  Director, Highland Sun        http://highlandsun.com/hyc
  OpenLDAP Core Team            http://www.openldap.org/project/


  parent reply	other threads:[~2005-10-07  1:05 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 241+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-10-02 20:47 what's next for the linux kernel? Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-02 21:05 ` Rik van Riel
2005-10-02 23:05   ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-02 23:26     ` Rik van Riel
2005-10-03  1:26       ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  1:53         ` Rik van Riel
2005-10-02 23:37     ` Vadim Lobanov
2005-10-03  0:54       ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  1:20         ` Vadim Lobanov
2005-10-03  1:47           ` Al Viro
2005-10-03  1:50             ` Vadim Lobanov
2005-10-03  1:53               ` Al Viro
2005-10-03  2:00                 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  9:34                 ` Erik Mouw
2005-10-03  1:53           ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  2:31             ` Vadim Lobanov
2005-10-02 23:14               ` D. Hazelton
2005-10-03 10:36             ` Giuseppe Bilotta
2005-10-03 21:34               ` Nix
2005-10-03 18:19             ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-04 12:53               ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-04 13:13                 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-10-04 13:47                 ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-04 17:12                   ` Bill Davidsen
2005-10-04 16:20                 ` Gene Heskett
2005-10-03  2:12         ` Horst von Brand
2005-10-03 16:32           ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-03 19:02             ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  2:55         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-03  3:25           ` Rik van Riel
2005-10-03 19:13           ` Alan Cox
2005-10-03 21:22           ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  5:03         ` Sonny Rao
2005-10-03 21:12           ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03 23:46             ` Sonny Rao
2005-10-03 19:18         ` Alan Cox
2005-10-03 21:07           ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03 22:05             ` Alan Cox
2005-10-04 14:01               ` Andi Kleen
2005-10-04  3:51             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-03  0:04     ` Martin J. Bligh
2005-10-03  0:14       ` Randy.Dunlap
2005-10-03  0:44         ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  7:50           ` Meelis Roos
2005-10-03 18:08             ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-03 18:28               ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-10-03 20:00                 ` Jon Masters
2005-10-03 18:56               ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  1:10       ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  1:18         ` Rik van Riel
2005-10-03  1:27         ` Chase Venters
2005-10-04 12:59           ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-04 15:01             ` Tushar Adeshara
2005-10-04 15:04             ` Nikita Danilov
2005-10-04 15:58               ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-04 16:17               ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-04 17:15                 ` Nikita Danilov
2005-10-04 17:23                   ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-04 17:40                     ` Nikita Danilov
2005-10-04 17:30                 ` Rik van Riel
2005-10-06  0:07                   ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06  9:56                     ` David Weinehall
2005-10-06 17:23                     ` Rik van Riel
2005-10-06 19:22                       ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-07  0:38                         ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-07  1:10                           ` Al Viro
2005-10-07  0:40                         ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03 17:56         ` Joe Bob Spamtest
     [not found]           ` <20051003185804.GB8548@lkcl.net>
     [not found]             ` <43418834.6070400@spamtest.viacore.net>
2005-10-03 20:30               ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-02 22:49 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-10-02 23:24   ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03  4:04     ` Willy Tarreau
2005-10-03  0:38   ` Kurt Wall
2005-10-03  0:36 ` Kurt Wall
2005-10-03  0:43   ` David Leimbach
2005-10-03  5:45 ` Nick Piggin
2005-10-03 14:20 ` Jon Masters
2005-10-03 16:00   ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-10-03 19:12     ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03 19:31       ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-10-03 20:22   ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-03 21:55     ` Jon Masters
2005-10-04  1:33     ` Jason Stubbs
2005-10-04 12:22       ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-04 19:47 ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-04 21:15   ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-04 23:40   ` Chase Venters
2005-10-05  5:35     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-05 10:07       ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05  6:54     ` Steven Rostedt
2005-10-05 10:03       ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 10:26     ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 11:04       ` Diego Calleja
2005-10-06 19:15         ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06  5:04       ` Chase Venters
2005-10-06  4:27         ` [ANNOUNCE] Wolf Mountain File System [what's next for the linux kernel] jmerkey
2005-10-06  4:32           ` jmerkey
2005-10-06 10:44             ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06 14:24               ` jmerkey
2005-10-06  8:08           ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-06 14:25             ` jmerkey
2005-10-11 18:18               ` [ANNOUNCE] Wolf Mountain File System Jeff V. Merkey
2005-10-06 15:10         ` what's next for the linux kernel? Michael Concannon
2005-10-06 19:28           ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06 20:13             ` Michael Concannon
2005-10-06 20:22               ` Michael Concannon
2005-10-06 21:05               ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06 21:20               ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06 21:53                 ` Michael Concannon
2005-10-06 22:24                   ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06 22:41                     ` Michael Concannon
2005-10-06 22:41                     ` Michael Concannon
2005-10-07  1:05                 ` Howard Chu [this message]
2005-10-08 22:27                 ` Helge Hafting
2005-10-08 22:42                   ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05  0:59   ` Horst von Brand
2005-10-05  1:22   ` D. Hazelton
2005-10-05  5:49     ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05  6:03       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-05  9:24       ` Nikita Danilov
2005-10-05  9:56         ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 10:30           ` Nikita Danilov
2005-10-05 11:13             ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 12:17               ` Nikita Danilov
2005-10-05 12:36                 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 18:47           ` Horst von Brand
2005-10-05 23:03             ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 21:55               ` jmerkey
2005-10-05 23:36                 ` Neil Brown
2005-10-05 22:21                   ` jmerkey
2005-10-05 23:42                   ` David Leimbach
2005-10-06  3:06               ` Horst von Brand
2005-10-06 10:54                 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06  8:03               ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-06  9:31                 ` Helge Hafting
2005-10-06 14:40                   ` Horst von Brand
2005-10-06 18:34                   ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-05 11:16         ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 13:21         ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 13:52           ` Nikita Danilov
2005-10-05 23:53           ` Helge Hafting
2005-10-05 16:36         ` Tim Bird
2005-10-05 13:45       ` D. Hazelton
2005-10-05 10:09     ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 10:23       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-05 11:14         ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 14:17   ` Nix
2005-10-05 15:54   ` Rik van Riel
2005-10-05 15:58     ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 16:15       ` Al Viro
2005-10-05 16:23         ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 19:30           ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-05 22:48             ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06 10:28               ` Nikita Danilov
2005-10-07  0:59               ` Joe Bob Spamtest
2005-10-07  0:25       ` Joe Bob Spamtest
2005-10-05 20:11     ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
     [not found] <4TiWy-4HQ-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
2005-10-02 22:43 ` Robert Hancock
2005-10-02 23:32   ` Gene Heskett
2005-10-02 23:41     ` Vadim Lobanov
2005-10-02 23:48     ` Rik van Riel
2005-10-03  3:50       ` Gene Heskett
2005-10-03  9:39         ` Jesper Juhl
     [not found] ` <4U0XH-3Gp-39@gated-at.bofh.it>
2005-10-04 22:04   ` Bodo Eggert
2005-10-05 10:36     ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 23:12       ` Nix
2005-10-05 23:28         ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 23:49           ` Nix
2005-10-05 14:34     ` Nix
2005-10-05 14:41       ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 14:44         ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-05 14:48           ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 14:56             ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-05 15:08               ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 15:26                 ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-05 19:16                 ` Nix
2005-10-05 19:30                   ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 20:26                     ` Nix
2005-10-08 16:49                     ` Denis Vlasenko
2005-10-05 19:40                   ` Al Viro
2005-10-05 19:49                     ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 19:55                       ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-05 20:25                     ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-10-05 20:31                 ` Nix
2005-10-05 14:59             ` Nigel Rantor
2005-10-05 16:16             ` Bodo Eggert
2005-10-05 19:37             ` Florin Malita
2005-10-05 19:44               ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 19:52                 ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-05 20:05                   ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 20:23                     ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-06  2:56                     ` Horst von Brand
2005-10-06  3:50                       ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 20:21                 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-10-05 20:58                 ` Dave Neuer
2005-10-05 21:05                 ` Bodo Eggert
2005-10-06  6:43                 ` Steven Rostedt
2005-10-05 19:54             ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-10-07  0:11             ` Joe Bob Spamtest
2005-10-05 14:52           ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-10-05 14:57             ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-05 15:26               ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-10-05 15:24         ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 15:30           ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-05 15:42             ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 15:55               ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-10-06 15:41                 ` Ragnar Hojland Espinosa
2005-10-05 14:55       ` David Leimbach
2005-10-05 16:25         ` Bodo Eggert
2005-10-05 16:41           ` David Leimbach
2005-10-05 19:21             ` Nix
2005-10-05 23:23             ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06  9:53               ` grundig
2005-10-06 10:45                 ` Tomasz Kłoczko
2005-10-06 15:18                 ` Greg Norris
2005-10-05 20:27     ` Marc Perkel
2005-10-05 20:41       ` Julian Blake Kongslie
2005-10-05 20:51         ` Bas Westerbaan
2005-10-05 20:57           ` Julian Blake Kongslie
     [not found]   ` <4Uis4-4pZ-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
2005-10-05 17:43     ` Bodo Eggert
2005-10-05 19:27       ` Nix
2005-10-05 20:04         ` Bodo Eggert
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-10-04  4:11 Martin Fouts
     [not found] <mail.linux.kernel/20051003203037.GG8548@lkcl.net>
     [not found] ` <05Oct4.173802edt.33143@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca>
2005-10-05 12:07   ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 12:31     ` Jens Axboe
2005-10-05 13:35       ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 13:40         ` Jens Axboe
2005-10-05 15:29           ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 15:51             ` Jens Axboe
2005-10-05 16:38               ` Steven Rostedt
2005-10-05 23:24                 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-05 17:01     ` Dave Neuer
     [not found]     ` <161717d50510050957t2eaa3af0u8c6b3b4d327497a9@mail.gmail.com>
2005-10-05 23:05       ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
     [not found] <DE88BDF02F4319469812588C7950A97E9312A6@ussunex1.palmsource.com>
2005-10-06  0:03 ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06  0:14   ` David S. Miller
2005-10-06  1:11     ` Nigel Rantor
2005-10-06 11:10     ` Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2005-10-06 15:44       ` Al Viro
2005-10-06  0:51   ` Howard Chu
2005-10-06  3:53 Nikolay N. Ivanov
2005-10-06 23:24 Joe Bob Spamtest

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