AX25 and related software's future in Debian

AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Patrick Ouellette]

I come to the lists mentally and physically exhausted from the
current struggle to defend the ham radio package node in the Debian
distribution.  I also seem to be the only person interested in the
ax25 software (libax25, ax25-tools, ax25-xtools, and ax25-utils).
The situation with node has made me wonder why I am even bothering.  I can
compile the ax25 stack for my use, and not have to put up with the baggage
Debian requires.

The question I have for the lists - is there really any interest in having
ham radio software, particularly libax25 and the tools/utils in Debian?
I know if it disappears from Debian it affects all Debian derived distros
(like Ubuntu for instance).

Reverse depends output for libax25:
libax25
  Reverse Depends: aprsd (>= 1:2.2.5-13-5.1)
  Reverse Depends: aprsdigi (>= 2.4.4-3.1)
  Reverse Depends: ax25-apps (>= 0.0.8-rc2+cvs20120204-2)
  Reverse Depends: ax25-tools (>= 0.0.10-rc2+cvs20120204-3)
  Reverse Depends: ax25mail-utils (>= 0.11-6.1)
  Reverse Depends: fbb (>= 7.04j-8.2)
  Reverse Depends: libax25-dev (= 0.0.12-rc2+cvs20120204-2)
  Reverse Depends: linamc (>= 2.0rc5-2)
  Reverse Depends: node (>= 0.3.2-7.1)
  Reverse Depends: xastir (>= 2.0.0-2+b1)
aprsd
aprsdigi
ax25-apps
ax25-tools
ax25mail-utils
fbb
libax25-dev
linamc
node
xastir


So, what inspiration can you give me to keep me from packing up the tent?

73,

Pat NE4PO
-- 
,-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
>   Patrick Ouellette         |    It is in pardoning that we are pardoned.   <
>   pat(at)flying-gecko.net   |    -- Francis of Assisi                       <
>   Amateur Radio: NE4PO      |                                               <
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Dave Platt]

> So, what inspiration can you give me to keep me from packing up the tent?

I personally would be sorry to see it disappear from the
Debian distribution.

However, I think I understand your pain, and if you decide
to retire from the fight and let the packages be pulled from
Debian for lack of an active maintainer/sponsor I certainly
won't blame you!  I do not think it's a crucial enough issue
for you to injure yourself over.

I'm enough of a "tweaker" that I'd much prefer an actively-
maintained, distribution-agnostic "master kit" that I can
build and install myself, to an "easy install" package that's
not used by enough people to justify the effort needed to track
a changing distribution rule-set and fight battles such as the
one that seems to have erupted here.  My 8mpression is that the
Debian AX.25 apps have lagged significantly behind what's been
available "from source", perhaps due in part to this same
"lack of adequate use" problem, and that it's been preferable to
build from sources anyhow.

Other people may feel differently, of course.

AX.25 on Linux has (I think) always been enough of an "oddball"
niche interest that I suspect most users of it were "self-
installers" from the beginning, rather than being dependent on
support from their distribution.  If I recall correctly, many
of the standard Debian kernels have not supported AX.25 by
default, and installing a custom kernel has been close to a
"must".  Anybody who can do this, can probably manage to build
and install the libraries and apps themselves from the original
source kits.

73,

	Dave AE6EO

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Patrick Ouellette]

Dave,

I appreciate the response.  Having been with Debian for somewhere
around 15 years I'm no stranger to the "discussions" that erupt
over various issues.

I usually prefer to not comment on most of them.  Unfortunately I
am in the center of this one.

On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 06:46:49PM -0700, Dave Platt wrote:
> 
> I'm enough of a "tweaker" that I'd much prefer an actively-
> maintained, distribution-agnostic "master kit" that I can
> build and install myself, to an "easy install" package that's
> not used by enough people to justify the effort needed to track
> a changing distribution rule-set and fight battles such as the
> one that seems to have erupted here.  My 8mpression is that the
> Debian AX.25 apps have lagged significantly behind what's been
> available "from source", perhaps due in part to this same
> "lack of adequate use" problem, and that it's been preferable to
> build from sources anyhow.

Actually the AX25 versions in Debian only lagged "far" behind the last
release (which has problems) and cvs (a situation I was trying to remedy).
Granted the last release was about 2 years ago (the -rc2 packages), but in 
Debian release cycle time that is barely a single stable release.
The upstream change logs most recent entries are dated 2002,2003,2009,2012.
(Those are for libax25)

> 
> AX.25 on Linux has (I think) always been enough of an "oddball"
> niche interest that I suspect most users of it were "self-
> installers" from the beginning, rather than being dependent on
> support from their distribution.  If I recall correctly, many
> of the standard Debian kernels have not supported AX.25 by
> default, and installing a custom kernel has been close to a
> "must".  Anybody who can do this, can probably manage to build
> and install the libraries and apps themselves from the original
> source kits.

Debian kernels have pretty much always had the ax25 support either
compiled in or as modules.  That was one of the legacies from the early
efforts to make Debian a ham friendly distro (way back in 1997).

73,

Pat NE4PO
-- 
,-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
>  Patrick Ouellette        |   Start by doing what's necessary; then do      <
>  pat(at)flying-gecko.net  |   what's possible; and suddenly you are doing   <
>  Amateur Radio: NE4PO     |   the impossible.  -- Francis of Assisi         <
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Kamal Mostafa]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2602 bytes --]

On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 21:32 -0400, Patrick Ouellette wrote:
> I come to the lists mentally and physically exhausted from the
> current struggle to defend the ham radio package node in the Debian
> distribution.  I also seem to be the only person interested in the
> ax25 software (libax25, ax25-tools, ax25-xtools, and ax25-utils).
> The situation with node has made me wonder why I am even bothering.  I can
> compile the ax25 stack for my use, and not have to put up with the baggage
> Debian requires.
> 
> The question I have for the lists - is there really any interest in having
> ham radio software, particularly libax25 and the tools/utils in Debian?

Pat, there certainly is plenty of interest in keeping ham radio software
alive in Debian and its derivatives.

I will continue to stay out of the discussion about 'node' since I do
not use it myself, but I can confidently state that many of the other
AX25 packages you list below are important to a great many users, me
included.  In particular, I know that aprsd and xastir are quite popular
with the Linux hams community.

I, for one, very much appreciate your efforts to maintain the AX25 stack
and other ham packages, Pat.  Please do keep up your good work!

73 de KA6MAL

 -Kamal


> I know if it disappears from Debian it affects all Debian derived distros
> (like Ubuntu for instance).
> 
> Reverse depends output for libax25:
> libax25
>   Reverse Depends: aprsd (>= 1:2.2.5-13-5.1)
>   Reverse Depends: aprsdigi (>= 2.4.4-3.1)
>   Reverse Depends: ax25-apps (>= 0.0.8-rc2+cvs20120204-2)
>   Reverse Depends: ax25-tools (>= 0.0.10-rc2+cvs20120204-3)
>   Reverse Depends: ax25mail-utils (>= 0.11-6.1)
>   Reverse Depends: fbb (>= 7.04j-8.2)
>   Reverse Depends: libax25-dev (= 0.0.12-rc2+cvs20120204-2)
>   Reverse Depends: linamc (>= 2.0rc5-2)
>   Reverse Depends: node (>= 0.3.2-7.1)
>   Reverse Depends: xastir (>= 2.0.0-2+b1)
> aprsd
> aprsdigi
> ax25-apps
> ax25-tools
> ax25mail-utils
> fbb
> libax25-dev
> linamc
> node
> xastir
> 
> 
> So, what inspiration can you give me to keep me from packing up the tent?
> 
> 73,
> 
> Pat NE4PO
> -- 
> ,-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
> >   Patrick Ouellette         |    It is in pardoning that we are pardoned.   <
> >   pat(at)flying-gecko.net   |    -- Francis of Assisi                       <
> >   Amateur Radio: NE4PO      |                                               <
> `-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'
> 
> 


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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Charles Suprin]

Patrick,

I find myself asking the question if the name collision had occurred
with emacs, vi, ls, cat, or anyone of a number of other programs would
the conversation be the same.  There have been several good points in
the conversation.

Good luck and thanks for the effort.  It is a bigger problem than just
this small node app.

Charles


On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Patrick Ouellette <pat@flying-gecko.net> wrote:
> I come to the lists mentally and physically exhausted from the
> current struggle to defend the ham radio package node in the Debian
> distribution.  I also seem to be the only person interested in the
> ax25 software (libax25, ax25-tools, ax25-xtools, and ax25-utils).
> The situation with node has made me wonder why I am even bothering.  I can
> compile the ax25 stack for my use, and not have to put up with the baggage
> Debian requires.
>
> The question I have for the lists - is there really any interest in having
> ham radio software, particularly libax25 and the tools/utils in Debian?
> I know if it disappears from Debian it affects all Debian derived distros
> (like Ubuntu for instance).
>
> Reverse depends output for libax25:
> libax25
>  Reverse Depends: aprsd (>= 1:2.2.5-13-5.1)
>  Reverse Depends: aprsdigi (>= 2.4.4-3.1)
>  Reverse Depends: ax25-apps (>= 0.0.8-rc2+cvs20120204-2)
>  Reverse Depends: ax25-tools (>= 0.0.10-rc2+cvs20120204-3)
>  Reverse Depends: ax25mail-utils (>= 0.11-6.1)
>  Reverse Depends: fbb (>= 7.04j-8.2)
>  Reverse Depends: libax25-dev (= 0.0.12-rc2+cvs20120204-2)
>  Reverse Depends: linamc (>= 2.0rc5-2)
>  Reverse Depends: node (>= 0.3.2-7.1)
>  Reverse Depends: xastir (>= 2.0.0-2+b1)
> aprsd
> aprsdigi
> ax25-apps
> ax25-tools
> ax25mail-utils
> fbb
> libax25-dev
> linamc
> node
> xastir
>
>
> So, what inspiration can you give me to keep me from packing up the tent?
>
> 73,
>
> Pat NE4PO
> --
> ,-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
>>   Patrick Ouellette         |    It is in pardoning that we are pardoned.   <
>>   pat(at)flying-gecko.net   |    -- Francis of Assisi                       <
>>   Amateur Radio: NE4PO      |                                               <
> `-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'
>
>
> --
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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Patrick Ouellette]

On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 10:03:57PM -0400, Charles Suprin wrote:
> 
> Patrick,
> 
> I find myself asking the question if the name collision had occurred
> with emacs, vi, ls, cat, or anyone of a number of other programs would
> the conversation be the same.  There have been several good points in
> the conversation.
> 
> Good luck and thanks for the effort.  It is a bigger problem than just
> this small node app.
> 
> Charles

Charles,

I have no doubt if the longer packaged program in question was one
you listed, or many others, the new package would be summarily dismissed
until it no longer conflicted.  There would not even be discussion.

I see the bigger problem too, but it seems like many or most in the
node discussion are so focused on getting node.js the name node at any
cost they haven't even considered the potential long term ramifications
of their actions.

The larger problem has been raised to the Debian project leader.  Perhaps
it will be addressed, perhaps not.

73,

Pat NE4PO
-- 
,-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
>   Patrick Ouellette         |   Lord, grant that I might not so much seek   <
>   pat(at)flying-gecko.net   |   to be loved as to love.                     <
>   Amateur Radio: NE4PO      |   -- Francis of Assisi                        <
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Alejandro Santos]

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Patrick Ouellette <pat@flying-gecko.net> wrote:
>
>
> So, what inspiration can you give me to keep me from packing up the tent?
>

While not specific to libax25, software like gpsk31 is long gone from
the original website, and Debian is one of the few places to get it.

I for one vote to keep the software on Debian as long as it's possible
to maintain.

Thanks,

LU4EXT

-- 
Alejandro Santos

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Kim, VK5FJ]

Alejandro wrote:
> Patrick wrote:
> > So, what inspiration can you give me to keep me from packing up the tent?
> I for one vote to keep the software on Debian as long as it's possible
> to maintain.

Two things;

Firstly, we invest our time and efforts in learning Debian because its 
consistent, predictable, reliable, Open and Free. I've lost count of how 
many Debian servers I've built for other people over the years. Not to 
mention how many dist-upgrades I've done between releases. Many other 
people come to rely on those attributes,

Secondly, I've just levelled up to get on air using digital modes; the 
amateur license, skills, computer and radio hardware. I've been looking 
forward to get my hands dirty with packet radio and APRS for a very long 
time! Please don't drop it =) Alternatively, sign me up!

regards,

Kim VK5FJ

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Patrick Ouellette]

On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 02:50:50PM +0930, Kim, VK5FJ wrote:
> 
> Secondly, I've just levelled up to get on air using digital modes;
> the amateur license, skills, computer and radio hardware. I've been
> looking forward to get my hands dirty with packet radio and APRS for
> a very long time! Please don't drop it =) Alternatively, sign me up!
> 

Kim,

It is all about timing in life, isn't it? ;-)

If you seriously want to get involved in helping with Debian,
the instructions on how to go about it are at: 

http://www.debian.org/intro/help

73,

Pat NE4PO

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Dan Smith]

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> So, what inspiration can you give me to keep me from packing up the tent?

Some of us continue to develop and deploy new systems based on this
stuff. Linux provides the most modern way to integrate AX.25 with other
IP networks (IMHO) and Debian provides a good platform on which to
build. Yes, you and I can install our own stacks, but if it goes away
from the base distro, it will be harder to encourage other folks to do
the same.

-- 
Dan Smith
www.danplanet.com
KK7DS


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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Patrick Ouellette]

(I added Ralf DL5RB and Thomas DL9SAU to the Cc: line.  They are the
upstream maintainers of ax25 and I am not sure if they have seen the 
thread/discussions)

On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 07:06:33AM -0700, Dan Smith wrote:
> 
> > So, what inspiration can you give me to keep me from packing up the tent?
> 
> Some of us continue to develop and deploy new systems based on this
> stuff. Linux provides the most modern way to integrate AX.25 with other
> IP networks (IMHO) and Debian provides a good platform on which to
> build. Yes, you and I can install our own stacks, but if it goes away
> from the base distro, it will be harder to encourage other folks to do
> the same.
> 

Dan,

Playing Devil's advocate - the argument has been put forth in the
"other discussion" that according to popcon (the Debian popularity
contest), node has 81 installs, and 17 reporting as "active" while the
nodejs package has 720 installs with 163 reporting as "active."  So their
conclusion is the node package is only used by a small community.

Looking at the ax25 packages:
libax25 - 234 installs/ 49 active
ax25-tools - 74/19
ax25-xtools - 45/6
ax25-apps - 74/17

other ham packages depending on libax25:
xastir - 89/16
aprsd - 33/13
ax25mail-utils - 22/4
fbb -16/3
linamc - 13/0

and a couple of other ham packages:
hamlib - 349/119
qsstv - 80/8
gmfsk - 64/10
fldigi - 113/24
xlog - 72/12
gpredict - 650/90

for comparison, the bash shell - 121423/110245

judging by these numbers (and let me make it CLEAR I do not put much
stock in them personally since the package does not have to be installed,
the machine has to have an internet connection, and the file system has
to record atime - so low power systems or ssd drive systems with
the mount option noatime don't count) hamlib *might* currently be
*safe* in terms of keeping it's name, and clearly is used by others.

The other issue, the one I was thinking of was the active user counts.
With the exception of hamlib and gpredict they are all low double digit
or even single digit numbers.  Even if I believe there are many more
users of the software, I have no way to prove it.

I know there are many Debian and Debian based systems running ax25.
Unfortunately "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" and the ax25 users
haven't been squeaking.  Flawed as it is, the "other side" will continue
to use the only tool they have - popcon - to justify their actions in
disregarding the place of long term packages in the distribution in favor
of the next new / hot thing.  

I would like to run my tried and true systems as they are, and not have
to reinvent the wheel and debug scripts every few years when this issue
comes up again.  The same thing happened with listen in Debian, so
now it is axlisten while the music player now has the executable named
listen.  Everyone agreed then that "listen" was a generic name and should 
not really be used, and yet it is.

You claim the existence of the packages in Debian encourages others to 
try ax25, if this is so where are these people?

Pat

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Dan Smith]

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> You claim the existence of the packages in Debian encourages others to 
> try ax25, if this is so where are these people?

As you indicate, popcon isn't going to properly report all of the Linux
systems "out there" that are running in completely isolated RF islands
(much of network 44./8). Even the ones that do have a path to the
outside are likely going to be configured to minimize any extra traffic
over our extremely bandwidth-limited RF links.

However, if debian determines the priority of packages based on
popularity from internet-connected systems, and priority for names is
given to the highest scoring package, (instead of the first one to use
it), then it's unlikely we'll get to keep our place here.

Honestly, I can't say I'd fault debian for making such a decision, as
we're certainly in the minority of their users. However, to answer your
question, judging usage or the presence of "these people" by popcon is
probably significantly and atypically less accurate for us as a group :)

-- 
Dan Smith
www.danplanet.com
KK7DS


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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Steve Kostecke]

Patrick Ouellette said:

>Playing Devil's advocate - the argument has been put forth in the
>"other discussion" that according to popcon (the Debian popularity
>contest), node has 81 installs, and 17 reporting as "active" while the
>nodejs package has 720 installs with 163 reporting as "active."  So their
>conclusion is the node package is only used by a small community.

I've not had time to read that entire thread, but it seems to me that
renaming well known binaries violates the Principle Of Least
Astonishment.

Has anyone considered making nodejs and ax25 conflict? That would be an
easy way of sidestepping this entire namespace issue.

-- 
Steve Kostecke <steve@debian.org>

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Patrick Ouellette]

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On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 11:28:04AM -0500, Steve Kostecke wrote:
> 
> I've not had time to read that entire thread, but it seems to me that
> renaming well known binaries violates the Principle Of Least
> Astonishment.
> 
> Has anyone considered making nodejs and ax25 conflict? That would be an
> easy way of sidestepping this entire namespace issue.
> 

FWIW, I'm fine with that.  Apparently either Node.js people are not
OR someone higher in the food chain is not.  They are trying to
make it so you can have Node.js AND node installed.  I suspect the
actual cases where this is really desired to be very close to zero.
"They" are determined to not introduce the conflicts field.

Policy again - from Section 7.4:
"Be aware that adding Conflicts is normally not the best solution when 
two packages provide the same files. Depending on the reason for that 
conflict, using alternatives or renaming the files is often a better 
approach. See, for example, Binaries, Section 10.1.

Neither Breaks nor Conflicts should be used unless two packages cannot 
be installed at the same time or installing them both causes one of 
them to be broken or unusable. Having similar functionality or performing 
the same tasks as another package is not sufficient reason to declare 
Breaks or Conflicts with that package. Be aware that adding Conflicts 
is normally not the best solution when two packages provide the same 
files. Depending on the reason for that conflict, using alternatives 
or renaming the files is often a better approach. See, for example, 
Binaries, Section 10.1."

Clearly conflicts is a solution allowed by policy 7.4, and I don't know
*why* they continue to press the issue.  Apparently bug 611698 which
cites policy 10.1 claims "you can't do that."

Maybe the tech committee can explain why policy contradicts policy.


Pat 

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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Bill Vodall]

>> Has anyone considered making nodejs and ax25 conflict? That would be an
>> easy way of sidestepping this entire namespace issue.
>>
>
> FWIW, I'm fine with that.  Apparently either Node.js people are not
> OR someone higher in the food chain is not.  They are trying to
> make it so you can have Node.js AND node installed.  I suspect the
> actual cases where this is really desired to be very close to zero.

While I don't yet know anything about Node.js, a comment was recently
made on the wetnet list that the Node.js technology might lead to
making good use of the inherent nature of AX25 data.

If they are marked as conflicting, can it be easily overridden at install time?

Bill - WA7NWP
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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Patrick Ouellette]

On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 10:50:41AM -0700, Bill Vodall wrote:
> >> Has anyone considered making nodejs and ax25 conflict? That would be an
> >> easy way of sidestepping this entire namespace issue.
> >>
> >
> > FWIW, I'm fine with that.  Apparently either Node.js people are not
> > OR someone higher in the food chain is not.  They are trying to
> > make it so you can have Node.js AND node installed.  I suspect the
> > actual cases where this is really desired to be very close to zero.
> 
> While I don't yet know anything about Node.js, a comment was recently
> made on the wetnet list that the Node.js technology might lead to
> making good use of the inherent nature of AX25 data.
> 
> If they are marked as conflicting, can it be easily overridden at install time?
> 

Marking the packages as conflicting would get us out of the current
immediate situation and allow another release cycle to develop and
test transition stratigies/plans.

It can be overridden with dpkg --force-conflicts at installation.  This is
certainly not necessarily a long term solution.

As for the usefulness or not of Node.js with ax25 - similar java toolkits 
exist in the world, web apps are web apps from the user perspective.

The marketing speak from nodejs.org:

Node.js is a platform built on Chrome's JavaScript runtime for easily 
building fast, scalable network applications. Node.js uses an event-driven, 
non-blocking I/O model that makes it lightweight and efficient, perfect 
for data-intensive real-time applications that run across distributed devices.


Not seeing anything particularly well suited to ax25 networks there,
or anything particularly unique in general.


Pat
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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Dan Smith]

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> Not seeing anything particularly well suited to ax25 networks there,
> or anything particularly unique in general.

Not sure I'd agree there. If whatever you're running AX.25 on is
suitable for HTTP, then Node.js would be of potential use as well. I'd
surely vote to avoid a "Conflicts: resolution" (pun intended).

-- 
Dan Smith
www.danplanet.com
KK7DS


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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Patrick Ouellette]

On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 11:32:34AM -0700, Dan Smith wrote:
> 
> > Not seeing anything particularly well suited to ax25 networks there,
> > or anything particularly unique in general.
> 
> Not sure I'd agree there. If whatever you're running AX.25 on is
> suitable for HTTP, then Node.js would be of potential use as well. I'd
> surely vote to avoid a "Conflicts: resolution" (pun intended).

From wikipedia's node.js page:

"Similar environments written in other programming languages include 
Twisted for Python, Perl Object Environment for Perl, libevent for C 
and EventMachine for Ruby. Unlike most JavaScript programs, it is not
executed in a web browser, but is instead a server-side JavaScript 
application"


There is not any particularly novel or new thing that you can do
with Node.js that can't be done with another toolkit as far as I
can tell.  The suitability of a verbose protocol like http for use
on limited bandwidth networks is a different issue.  I suppose if
you are running ax25 over D-Star 1.2GHz (128kbps) links....

Actually http is not the problem so much as the plethora of poorly
written and implemented web sites and all the web 2.0 "interactive"
user experience with mouse overs that send data back to the server
automatically, triggering the server to send a response.

Don't misunderstand me, I like the flashy Ajax web2.0 user experiences
I get on my 25Mbps/25Mbps FiOS internet connection - I'm just really
skeptical it will be as nice at 9600 baud or slower on an ax25 network.

Pat

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Dan Smith]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1972 bytes --]

> There is not any particularly novel or new thing that you can do
> with Node.js that can't be done with another toolkit as far as I
> can tell.

Sure, but certainly you would not argue that someone shouldn't use the
toolkit of their choice because their distro couldn't or didn't decide
how they should coexist, right? :)

> Actually http is not the problem so much as the plethora of poorly
> written and implemented web sites and all the web 2.0 "interactive"
> user experience with mouse overs that send data back to the server
> automatically, triggering the server to send a response.
> 
> Don't misunderstand me, I like the flashy Ajax web2.0 user experiences
> I get on my 25Mbps/25Mbps FiOS internet connection - I'm just really
> skeptical it will be as nice at 9600 baud or slower on an ax25 network.

Whether it makes sense over a slow RF connection or whether people tend
to use it to write crap is really neither here nor there, IMHO. What if
I wanted to write something that provided a web (or web services)
interface to my AX.25 network? I wanted to put that box on the border
between my tens-of-megabits internet connection and my 9600 baud AX.25
network of course, so that new-to-amateur radio kids could poke at the
network with a web browser. I'm not using Node.js for the AX.25 side,
but for the public-facing one. If the resolution here is to make the two
mutually exclusive, then that becomes harder.

Now, I'm certainly not arguing that one should have to take the rename
penalty over the other mind you, I'm just saying I think making them
mutually exclusive to solve the problem is precisely the sort of thing
the guidelines are trying to avoid using Conflicts: for. I'd tend to
lean towards a "we were here first" state of mind, but I also don't want
to find out that debian said "fine, screw you _and_ your eighteen
friends" when I got my head out of the sand :)

-- 
Dan Smith
www.danplanet.com
KK7DS


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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Patrick Ouellette]

On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 12:01:43PM -0700, Dan Smith wrote:
> 
> Sure, but certainly you would not argue that someone shouldn't use the
> toolkit of their choice because their distro couldn't or didn't decide
> how they should coexist, right? :)
> 

Of course not, use what you like.  However, your right to impose
what you like on a previously existing infrastructure should not
be unlimited and should respect that which is already there.

> > Actually http is not the problem so much as the plethora of poorly
> > written and implemented web sites and all the web 2.0 "interactive"
> > user experience with mouse overs that send data back to the server
> > automatically, triggering the server to send a response.
> > 
> > Don't misunderstand me, I like the flashy Ajax web2.0 user experiences
> > I get on my 25Mbps/25Mbps FiOS internet connection - I'm just really
> > skeptical it will be as nice at 9600 baud or slower on an ax25 network.
> 
> Whether it makes sense over a slow RF connection or whether people tend
> to use it to write crap is really neither here nor there, IMHO. What if
> I wanted to write something that provided a web (or web services)
> interface to my AX.25 network? I wanted to put that box on the border
> between my tens-of-megabits internet connection and my 9600 baud AX.25
> network of course, so that new-to-amateur radio kids could poke at the
> network with a web browser. I'm not using Node.js for the AX.25 side,
> but for the public-facing one. If the resolution here is to make the two
> mutually exclusive, then that becomes harder.
> 

The shared nature of the limited resource that is the ax25 network's
bandwidth changes my view on the acceptability or allowing poorly written
and inefficient resource hogs to run amok.  You want to do that on the
wired network you run, go ahead.  You want to do that on a shared resource
like the ax25 packet network, please be respectful of other user's
and at least try to write programs that make efficient use of the resources.

The conflicts would not be intended as a long term solution.  It would
allow Node.js to enter Debian this next release and allow those who
know what they are doing to install both with a --force-conflicts
dpkg option.

> Now, I'm certainly not arguing that one should have to take the rename
> penalty over the other mind you, I'm just saying I think making them
> mutually exclusive to solve the problem is precisely the sort of thing
> the guidelines are trying to avoid using Conflicts: for. I'd tend to
> lean towards a "we were here first" state of mind, but I also don't want
> to find out that debian said "fine, screw you _and_ your eighteen
> friends" when I got my head out of the sand :)

Unfortunately much of the conversation from the "rest of Debian" has been
of the "screw the ax25 users and the horses they rode in on too" variety.

Pat

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Damien Gardner Jnr]

On 5/05/2012 1:14 AM, Patrick Ouellette wrote:
> Dan,
>
> Playing Devil's advocate - the argument has been put forth in the
> "other discussion" that according to popcon (the Debian popularity
> contest), node has 81 installs, and 17 reporting as "active" while the
> nodejs package has 720 installs with 163 reporting as "active."  So their
> conclusion is the node package is only used by a small community.
>
Does anyone actually USE popcon though?  I dunno about you, but I have 
~400 debian boxes in use around my clients, and NONE are participating 
in popularity contest.. - Having the server info + installed packages 
sent off to some off-site location is a security risk, and a stumbling 
block on the way to PCI Compliance.  That and it just seems 
microsoft-style creepy!

I don't think you can honestly expect to use popcon as a valid indicator 
to the ax25 packages' install base.. - Much like you couldn't expect it 
to be valid for snort, acidbase, or other tools used in a secure 
environment?   (Which a ham radio node needs to be, to maintain the 
separation of ham-tcpip and public-tcpip networks).

Regards,

Damien

-- 
Damien Gardner Jnr
VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust
rendrag@rendrag.net - http://www.rendrag.net/
--
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
  We ran to the sounds of thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
  and tore the world asunder

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Kris Kirby]

> From: Patrick
> Date: Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:32 PM
> Subject: AX25 and related software's future in Debian
> 
> I come to the lists mentally and physically exhausted from the
> current struggle to defend the ham radio package node in the Debian
> distribution.  I also seem to be the only person interested in the
> ax25 software (libax25, ax25-tools, ax25-xtools, and ax25-utils).
> The situation with node has made me wonder why I am even bothering.  I can
> compile the ax25 stack for my use, and not have to put up with the baggage
> Debian requires.
> 
> The question I have for the lists - is there really any interest in having
> ham radio software, particularly libax25 and the tools/utils in Debian?
> I know if it disappears from Debian it affects all Debian derived distros
> (like Ubuntu for instance).

Most assuredly yes. While I don't presently have a system for using 
AX.25 on Debian, I do want to see it available because I will need it in 
the future. We use AX.25 for APRS particularly, and removing ham radio 
support from Debian and Linux means we go back into the dark ages and 
start over. 

Folks from the Allstar group may be impacted by this, and I can tell you 
that hams were involved in the birth, growth, and design of Asterisk as 
well. 

AX.25 may be outdated, but unfortunately, it's one of the protocols we 
have that we can either buy equipment off the shelf and use. 

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR
Disinformation Analyst

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Thomas Osterried]

Hello,

I know this thread became large. But I'm currently at a ham-event until sunday
evening. Thus please excuse that I respond without having read the thread and
my arguments may have already been stated.

HAM-Radio is an innovative hobby. We have several software that uses the AX.25
stack.
Your list of dependencies is only a short overview. I.e. I'm maintainer of
conversd-saupp (a irc-like conversation mode). It's not for users but for SysOP's.
They get the source of this daemon from my CVS. Because the low number of users
I do not intend to put it on the debian package servers. Nevertheless, it relies
on libax25. There are also several mailbox softwares around which rely on
libax25 (baybox, dpbox together with the pr-program tnt, etc).
Imagine the mess we get if all those programs decide to hard-link the library
in order to get it run on any debian system - just because you decide to leave
support for it out - "just because there are so few users".
Apropos the amount of users (I think it was the debian installation statistics
where users may take part (I do not, and many digipeaters with only RF access
never do)). Because ax25apps/-tools and libax25 were quite outdated, I recommended
to use the CVS HEAD and to recompile - if better support and fixed bugs were
needed. Those self-compiled systems do not occur on any other statistic.

The mess you had with "node" (which is _not_ part of ax25apps/-tools) we
already know from "net". ka9q NOS or unix-improved derivate of WAMPES.
But samba chose to name their control program net. What has the net to
do with samba? That is a really pain. Years ago, poeple at suse and
debian began to rename "call" to "axcall", and "ax25_call" (bad name
anyway) is now hardly distinguischable.

Imho, the free software community -and the distri's in the first line- have to
have find solutions. My it special path to the real program, or a rename structure
where we also will have to talk about the change to i.E. samba_net. You can
see, the names will become quite unreadable. And yes, I hope we will not tend to
name our programs like org.ampr.ax25.tools.call and org.win$compat.networking.samba.net ;)

I'd really appreciate if we leave things as they are: support for the ham-radio
community by debian.
..and yes - I've also talked to people who said "ah, ham - I know this from the
package list" - and I could make them "hot" for our fascinating hobby.

vy 73,
	- Thomas  dl9sau



On 2012-05-03 21:32:00 -0400, Patrick Ouellette <pat@flying-gecko.net>
wrote in <20120504013200.GB3489@flying-gecko.net>:
> I come to the lists mentally and physically exhausted from the
> current struggle to defend the ham radio package node in the Debian
> distribution.  I also seem to be the only person interested in the
> ax25 software (libax25, ax25-tools, ax25-xtools, and ax25-utils).
> The situation with node has made me wonder why I am even bothering.  I can
> compile the ax25 stack for my use, and not have to put up with the baggage
> Debian requires.
> 
> The question I have for the lists - is there really any interest in having
> ham radio software, particularly libax25 and the tools/utils in Debian?
> I know if it disappears from Debian it affects all Debian derived distros
> (like Ubuntu for instance).
> 
> Reverse depends output for libax25:
> libax25
>   Reverse Depends: aprsd (>= 1:2.2.5-13-5.1)
>   Reverse Depends: aprsdigi (>= 2.4.4-3.1)
>   Reverse Depends: ax25-apps (>= 0.0.8-rc2+cvs20120204-2)
>   Reverse Depends: ax25-tools (>= 0.0.10-rc2+cvs20120204-3)
>   Reverse Depends: ax25mail-utils (>= 0.11-6.1)
>   Reverse Depends: fbb (>= 7.04j-8.2)
>   Reverse Depends: libax25-dev (= 0.0.12-rc2+cvs20120204-2)
>   Reverse Depends: linamc (>= 2.0rc5-2)
>   Reverse Depends: node (>= 0.3.2-7.1)
>   Reverse Depends: xastir (>= 2.0.0-2+b1)
> aprsd
> aprsdigi
> ax25-apps
> ax25-tools
> ax25mail-utils
> fbb
> libax25-dev
> linamc
> node
> xastir
> 
> 
> So, what inspiration can you give me to keep me from packing up the tent?
> 
> 73,
> 
> Pat NE4PO
> -- 
> ,-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
> >   Patrick Ouellette         |    It is in pardoning that we are pardoned.   <
> >   pat(at)flying-gecko.net   |    -- Francis of Assisi                       <
> >   Amateur Radio: NE4PO      |                                               <
> `-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-hams-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
> Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120504013200.GB3489@flying-gecko.net
> 

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Wesley J. Landaker]

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On Thursday, May 03, 2012 19:32:00 Patrick Ouellette wrote:
> I come to the lists mentally and physically exhausted from the
> current struggle to defend the ham radio package node in the Debian
> distribution.  I also seem to be the only person interested in the
> ax25 software (libax25, ax25-tools, ax25-xtools, and ax25-utils).
> The situation with node has made me wonder why I am even bothering.  I
> can compile the ax25 stack for my use, and not have to put up with the
> baggage Debian requires.
> 
> The question I have for the lists - is there really any interest in
> having ham radio software, particularly libax25 and the tools/utils in
> Debian? I know if it disappears from Debian it affects all Debian
> derived distros (like Ubuntu for instance).

I do not use any ax25 software at the moment, but I've always had it on my 
list of interesting things to try: back when I was younger (I wasn't a ham 
at the time) I helped a friend of mine set up packet radio software on his 
computer.

About ham radio software in general, I do use a lot of other ham radio 
software packaged in Debian. In general I'm surprised that there isn't more 
overlap between the ham radio and free/open-source software communities.

- W5OSS

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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2012 23 May 13:16 -0500, Wesley J. Landaker wrote:
> On Thursday, May 03, 2012 19:32:00 Patrick Ouellette wrote:

> > The question I have for the lists - is there really any interest in
> > having ham radio software, particularly libax25 and the tools/utils in
> > Debian? I know if it disappears from Debian it affects all Debian
> > derived distros (like Ubuntu for instance).
> 
> I do not use any ax25 software at the moment, but I've always had it on my 
> list of interesting things to try: back when I was younger (I wasn't a ham 
> at the time) I helped a friend of mine set up packet radio software on his 
> computer.

Long ago I did experiment with the Linux AX.25 stack.  I have long lived
in an area with no packet radio activity so I do not currently use the
ax25 packages.  I like that they are available quite simply via apt and
friends.

I have read the threads that Patrick references and I think the proposed
solution is wrong headed for a few reasons.  Firstly, the 'node' package
has been in Debian for quite a number of releases and now some new
upstream comes along with a conflicting command name.  That there is a
naming conflict is not the issue, but how should it be resolved.  IMO,
node.js upstream should have been a bit more careful with their choice
of name (I'll admit that I have next to zero knowledge of javascript and
how the name 'node' fits into that but as a packet op long ago, 'node'
in the AX.25 context makes perfect sense), but beyond that, doesn't the
length of time that the ax25 upstream has used 'node' without issue not
count for anything?  For anyone to argue with a straight face that the
ax25 packager and upstream must somehow be accountable for this mess
seems to me preposterous.

Assuming the Debian package is forced to rename the 'node' command to
anything else, Debian will be the odd distribution out as far as hams
are concerned.  Will Ubuntu blindly follow suit?  Will any other
distribution?  To hold both packages culpable for the illinformed choice
of one in the name of "fairness" is silly.  As already mentioned, anyone
trying to similarly force a name change of Emacs, Linux, or any other
popular package would be laughed off the mailing list.  And just what
will the Debian decision makers do when ax25 upstream continues to use
the 'node' command name as before?

I can tell you that as a maintainer and contributor to an upstream
project that if I were told by a single distribution that I'd need to
change any of the command names because some upstart decided to use the
same names I would laugh.  Laugh long and hard.  Of course downstream
packagers can do as they like but our releases are staying put.  I
encourage ax25 upstream to do likewise.

Disclaimer, all of my systems run either Debian or a Ubuntu derivative.

> About ham radio software in general, I do use a lot of other ham radio 
> software packaged in Debian. In general I'm surprised that there isn't more 
> overlap between the ham radio and free/open-source software communities.

I've opined plenty on that topic elsewhere.  Today I shall pass.

73, de Nate >>

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Damien Gardner Jnr]

On 24/05/2012 4:15 AM, Wesley J. Landaker wrote:
> About ham radio software in general, I do use a lot of other ham radio 
> software packaged in Debian. In general I'm surprised that there isn't 
> more overlap between the ham radio and free/open-source software 
> communities. - W5OSS 

While I live and breath Debian, and have spent probably 90% of the time 
since I was introduced to Debian in 1998, with it on the desktop, my 
most recent personal machine runs Win 7.  I used to have a macbook pro 
17" running debian as my 'work' machine, and a little portege running 
debian as my 'ham machine' when I was out and about..

But now that I'm married with kids, when I finally manage to get out, I 
don't want to have to make sure batteries are charged, that the latest 
apt-get upgrade hasn't killed my favourite apps, and that the firmware 
for my wireless card hasn't been removed from the repository and killed 
my ability to get on the 'net, or any other mucking about.. - I want to 
just open up my go-bag, plug in the USB cable to the hub, fire up HRD, 
and spend my hour chatting to folk on psk31, not messing with my OS :)

Cheers,

DG

-- 
Damien Gardner Jnr
VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust
rendrag@rendrag.net - http://www.rendrag.net/
--
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
  We ran to the sounds of thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
  and tore the world asunder

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[C.J. Adams-Collier]

Sent from my PDP-11

On May 23, 2012, at 11:15 AM, "Wesley J. Landaker" <wjl@icecavern.net> wrote:

> On Thursday, May 03, 2012 19:32:00 Patrick Ouellette wrote:
>> I come to the lists mentally and physically exhausted from the
>> current struggle to defend the ham radio package node in the Debian
>> distribution.  

Who have you been speaking with?  I know some people who know some people.

>> I also seem to be the only person interested in the
>> ax25 software (libax25, ax25-tools, ax25-xtools, and ax25-utils).

That makes at least two of us.

>> The situation with node has made me wonder why I am even bothering.  

Whatever the reason, it probably started like

We The People...

>> I
>> can compile the ax25 stack for my use, and not have to put up with the
>> baggage Debian requires.
>> 

It's pretty light baggage.

>> The question I have for the lists - is there really any interest in
>> having ham radio software, particularly libax25 and the tools/utils in
>> Debian? I know if it disappears from Debian it affects all Debian
>> derived distros (like Ubuntu for instance).

Ooh!  Ooh!  Me!  And KE7KML probably.


> I do not use any ax25 software at the moment, but I've always had it on my 
> list of interesting things to try: back when I was younger (I wasn't a ham 
> at the time) I helped a friend of mine set up packet radio software on his 
> computer.
> 

Nice.  I'd like to give it a try.


> About ham radio software in general, I do use a lot of other ham radio 
> software packaged in Debian. In general I'm surprised that there isn't more 
> overlap between the ham radio and free/open-source software communities.

Yeah.  They seem a natural fit to me.

> - W5OSS

KF7BMP

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[IT1 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR]

ALCON,

Let me say in the most precise and absolute terms, yes, if you do  
something that would "de-perfectfy" Ubuntu for Amateur Radio use that  
would be quite a sad day for me. Granted, I jettisoned Debian a long  
time ago in exchange for Ubuntu (which by my measurement is far  
superior).

If you lack the interest in continuing to take the lead on AX25's  
appearance within the Debian distribution and its subordinate  
distributions (such as Ubuntu), why not try to speak to the Ubuntu  
folks? Maybe they will maintain it and that way it can stay. Perhaps  
someone else will take it over? Why just remove and leave everyone  
else absent this functional capability?


V/R,

Stuart, N3GWG


--

IT1 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR, N3GWG (Extra), MROP
Las Vegas, NV / Boulder, CO / Philadelphia, PA / Beverly Hills, CA

(310) 358-0202 Mobile Phone
(215) 338-6005 Google Voice

e-mail: stuart.tener@bh90210.net



Quoting "C.J. Adams-Collier" <cjac@colliertech.org>:

>
>
> Sent from my PDP-11
>
> On May 23, 2012, at 11:15 AM, "Wesley J. Landaker" <wjl@icecavern.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, May 03, 2012 19:32:00 Patrick Ouellette wrote:
>>> I come to the lists mentally and physically exhausted from the
>>> current struggle to defend the ham radio package node in the Debian
>>> distribution.
>
> Who have you been speaking with?  I know some people who know some people.
>
>>> I also seem to be the only person interested in the
>>> ax25 software (libax25, ax25-tools, ax25-xtools, and ax25-utils).
>
> That makes at least two of us.
>
>>> The situation with node has made me wonder why I am even bothering.
>
> Whatever the reason, it probably started like
>
> We The People...
>
>>> I
>>> can compile the ax25 stack for my use, and not have to put up with the
>>> baggage Debian requires.
>>>
>
> It's pretty light baggage.
>
>>> The question I have for the lists - is there really any interest in
>>> having ham radio software, particularly libax25 and the tools/utils in
>>> Debian? I know if it disappears from Debian it affects all Debian
>>> derived distros (like Ubuntu for instance).
>
> Ooh!  Ooh!  Me!  And KE7KML probably.
>
>
>> I do not use any ax25 software at the moment, but I've always had it on my
>> list of interesting things to try: back when I was younger (I wasn't a ham
>> at the time) I helped a friend of mine set up packet radio software on his
>> computer.
>>
>
> Nice.  I'd like to give it a try.
>
>
>> About ham radio software in general, I do use a lot of other ham radio
>> software packaged in Debian. In general I'm surprised that there isn't more
>> overlap between the ham radio and free/open-source software communities.
>
> Yeah.  They seem a natural fit to me.
>
>> - W5OSS
>
> KF7BMP
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

RE: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Marius Petrescu]

Please take the effort to remember the whole thread...

It started because there was a proposal to rename node from the ax25 suite
into something else, so that "newcomer" node.js  could be named node
instead.
(What a server side javascript package has with in common with the name node
is still a mistery to me, maybe the authors should calle it kernel since the
name and function seems to be irelevant and unrelated in their opinion...)

And the idea behind distros like Ubuntu is not about having or not the ax25
package in the distribution, but the issue of CONSISTENCY. It is really
idiotic to have "node" an ax25 node communication software as a package in
one distro (e.g. Ubuntu) and in another one to have "node" a java script
package (talking about Debian where the discussion started).
Remember this happened before: axmail was just overrun by some After Logic
XMail, without any hesitations. But this seems to be the trend... 
For "the clicking generation", ham radio is an obscure activity which just
can be trampled down since it does not result in nice pictures on a device
with an bitten fruit on it, and packet radio just some obsolete
non-important stuff that can be ignored (Duhhhh, ever heard of 3G and HSDPA?
Why would you want to use that?).

But again maybe this is a signal to get some fresh wind into ham radio apps,
maybe ax.25 in its current concept is really obsolete. And in this case we
need to do something about it. Making it maybe a little more "clickable"...

Marius, YO2LOJ 
proud user of ax.25

RE: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[IT1 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR]

Marius,

Excuse me but the ham radio apps work just fine for me, so long as  
nobody deletes them from distribution. I don't need no stink'in GUI!  
If I did, I'd have given up on Linux and Unix Administration a long  
time ago and become a Windows weenie. However, I have always chosen to  
take the same posture that my maid does, "I DO NOT DO WINDOWS!"

And if Ham Radio is an obscure activity it is because how many talks  
were given on Amateur Radio at Schmoocon? At DEFCON? At places where  
the hacking and technical communities stand in congress together?  
Perhaps the issue is marketing.

When last I went to DEFCON I saw an OVERCROWD of people waiting to  
learn how to pick a lock, pick a lock I said! Had a decent Ham Radio  
setup been there, with HF, Packet, Amateur TV, etc... we'd have likely  
done well at marketing our hobby.


Stuart


--

IT1 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR, N3GWG (Extra), MROP
Las Vegas, NV / Boulder, CO / Philadelphia, PA / Beverly Hills, CA

(310) 358-0202 Mobile Phone
(215) 338-6005 Google Voice

e-mail: stuart.tener@bh90210.net



Quoting Marius Petrescu <marius@yo2loj.ro>:

> Please take the effort to remember the whole thread...
>
> It started because there was a proposal to rename node from the ax25 suite
> into something else, so that "newcomer" node.js  could be named node
> instead.
> (What a server side javascript package has with in common with the name node
> is still a mistery to me, maybe the authors should calle it kernel since the
> name and function seems to be irelevant and unrelated in their opinion...)
>
> And the idea behind distros like Ubuntu is not about having or not the ax25
> package in the distribution, but the issue of CONSISTENCY. It is really
> idiotic to have "node" an ax25 node communication software as a package in
> one distro (e.g. Ubuntu) and in another one to have "node" a java script
> package (talking about Debian where the discussion started).
> Remember this happened before: axmail was just overrun by some After Logic
> XMail, without any hesitations. But this seems to be the trend...
> For "the clicking generation", ham radio is an obscure activity which just
> can be trampled down since it does not result in nice pictures on a device
> with an bitten fruit on it, and packet radio just some obsolete
> non-important stuff that can be ignored (Duhhhh, ever heard of 3G and HSDPA?
> Why would you want to use that?).
>
> But again maybe this is a signal to get some fresh wind into ham radio apps,
> maybe ax.25 in its current concept is really obsolete. And in this case we
> need to do something about it. Making it maybe a little more "clickable"...
>
> Marius, YO2LOJ
> proud user of ax.25
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

RE: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Marius Petrescu]

What I said was ironic (probably not enough).
I use those tools and I am happy with them. Just some people in the Debian
group were bothered by the fact that some wannabe script pack wants to use
the name node....
And than it jumped over to the whole ham radio stuff.

Marius, YO2LOJ

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org] On Behalf Of IT1 Stuart Blake
Tener, USNR
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 02:30
To: Marius Petrescu
Cc: linux-hams@vger.kernel.org
Subject: RE: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

Marius,

Excuse me but the ham radio apps work just fine for me, so long as nobody
deletes them from distribution. I don't need no stink'in GUI!  
If I did, I'd have given up on Linux and Unix Administration a long time ago
and become a Windows weenie. However, I have always chosen to take the same
posture that my maid does, "I DO NOT DO WINDOWS!"

And if Ham Radio is an obscure activity it is because how many talks were
given on Amateur Radio at Schmoocon? At DEFCON? At places where the hacking
and technical communities stand in congress together?  
Perhaps the issue is marketing.

When last I went to DEFCON I saw an OVERCROWD of people waiting to learn how
to pick a lock, pick a lock I said! Had a decent Ham Radio setup been there,
with HF, Packet, Amateur TV, etc... we'd have likely done well at marketing
our hobby.


Stuart


--

IT1 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR, N3GWG (Extra), MROP Las Vegas, NV / Boulder,
CO / Philadelphia, PA / Beverly Hills, CA

(310) 358-0202 Mobile Phone
(215) 338-6005 Google Voice

e-mail: stuart.tener@bh90210.net



Quoting Marius Petrescu <marius@yo2loj.ro>:

> Please take the effort to remember the whole thread...
>
> It started because there was a proposal to rename node from the ax25 
> suite into something else, so that "newcomer" node.js  could be named 
> node instead.
> (What a server side javascript package has with in common with the 
> name node is still a mistery to me, maybe the authors should calle it 
> kernel since the name and function seems to be irelevant and unrelated 
> in their opinion...)
>
> And the idea behind distros like Ubuntu is not about having or not the 
> ax25 package in the distribution, but the issue of CONSISTENCY. It is 
> really idiotic to have "node" an ax25 node communication software as a 
> package in one distro (e.g. Ubuntu) and in another one to have "node" 
> a java script package (talking about Debian where the discussion started).
> Remember this happened before: axmail was just overrun by some After 
> Logic XMail, without any hesitations. But this seems to be the trend...
> For "the clicking generation", ham radio is an obscure activity which 
> just can be trampled down since it does not result in nice pictures on 
> a device with an bitten fruit on it, and packet radio just some 
> obsolete non-important stuff that can be ignored (Duhhhh, ever heard of 3G
and HSDPA?
> Why would you want to use that?).
>
> But again maybe this is a signal to get some fresh wind into ham radio 
> apps, maybe ax.25 in its current concept is really obsolete. And in 
> this case we need to do something about it. Making it maybe a little more
"clickable"...
>
> Marius, YO2LOJ
> proud user of ax.25
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" 
> in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo 
> info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>


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RE: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Marius Petrescu]

Grrr. Let me rephrase that. Some people in the Debian group wanted to use
the name NODE for a java script package currently called node.js.


-----Original Message-----
From: linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org] On Behalf Of Marius Petrescu
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 03:03
To: 'IT1 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR'
Cc: linux-hams@vger.kernel.org
Subject: RE: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

What I said was ironic (probably not enough).
I use those tools and I am happy with them. Just some people in the Debian
group were bothered by the fact that some wannabe script pack wants to use
the name node....
And than it jumped over to the whole ham radio stuff.

Marius, YO2LOJ

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org] On Behalf Of IT1 Stuart Blake
Tener, USNR
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 02:30
To: Marius Petrescu
Cc: linux-hams@vger.kernel.org
Subject: RE: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

Marius,

Excuse me but the ham radio apps work just fine for me, so long as nobody
deletes them from distribution. I don't need no stink'in GUI!  
If I did, I'd have given up on Linux and Unix Administration a long time ago
and become a Windows weenie. However, I have always chosen to take the same
posture that my maid does, "I DO NOT DO WINDOWS!"

And if Ham Radio is an obscure activity it is because how many talks were
given on Amateur Radio at Schmoocon? At DEFCON? At places where the hacking
and technical communities stand in congress together?  
Perhaps the issue is marketing.

When last I went to DEFCON I saw an OVERCROWD of people waiting to learn how
to pick a lock, pick a lock I said! Had a decent Ham Radio setup been there,
with HF, Packet, Amateur TV, etc... we'd have likely done well at marketing
our hobby.


Stuart


--

IT1 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR, N3GWG (Extra), MROP Las Vegas, NV / Boulder,
CO / Philadelphia, PA / Beverly Hills, CA

(310) 358-0202 Mobile Phone
(215) 338-6005 Google Voice

e-mail: stuart.tener@bh90210.net



Quoting Marius Petrescu <marius@yo2loj.ro>:

> Please take the effort to remember the whole thread...
>
> It started because there was a proposal to rename node from the ax25 
> suite into something else, so that "newcomer" node.js  could be named 
> node instead.
> (What a server side javascript package has with in common with the 
> name node is still a mistery to me, maybe the authors should calle it 
> kernel since the name and function seems to be irelevant and unrelated 
> in their opinion...)
>
> And the idea behind distros like Ubuntu is not about having or not the
> ax25 package in the distribution, but the issue of CONSISTENCY. It is 
> really idiotic to have "node" an ax25 node communication software as a 
> package in one distro (e.g. Ubuntu) and in another one to have "node"
> a java script package (talking about Debian where the discussion started).
> Remember this happened before: axmail was just overrun by some After 
> Logic XMail, without any hesitations. But this seems to be the trend...
> For "the clicking generation", ham radio is an obscure activity which 
> just can be trampled down since it does not result in nice pictures on 
> a device with an bitten fruit on it, and packet radio just some 
> obsolete non-important stuff that can be ignored (Duhhhh, ever heard 
> of 3G
and HSDPA?
> Why would you want to use that?).
>
> But again maybe this is a signal to get some fresh wind into ham radio 
> apps, maybe ax.25 in its current concept is really obsolete. And in 
> this case we need to do something about it. Making it maybe a little 
> more
"clickable"...
>
> Marius, YO2LOJ
> proud user of ax.25
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" 
> in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo 
> info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>


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Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Bob Nielsen]

Ah, for the days when a ham (Bruce Perens, Bdale Garbee) was the Debian Project Leader.

Bob, N7XY

On May 24, 2012, at 5:04 PM, Marius Petrescu wrote:

> Grrr. Let me rephrase that. Some people in the Debian group wanted to use
> the name NODE for a java script package currently called node.js.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org
> [mailto:linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org] On Behalf Of Marius Petrescu
> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 03:03
> To: 'IT1 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR'
> Cc: linux-hams@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: RE: AX25 and related software's future in Debian
> 
> What I said was ironic (probably not enough).
> I use those tools and I am happy with them. Just some people in the Debian
> group were bothered by the fact that some wannabe script pack wants to use
> the name node....
> And than it jumped over to the whole ham radio stuff.
> 
> Marius, YO2LOJ
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org
> [mailto:linux-hams-owner@vger.kernel.org] On Behalf Of IT1 Stuart Blake
> Tener, USNR
> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 02:30
> To: Marius Petrescu
> Cc: linux-hams@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: RE: AX25 and related software's future in Debian
> 
> Marius,
> 
> Excuse me but the ham radio apps work just fine for me, so long as nobody
> deletes them from distribution. I don't need no stink'in GUI!  
> If I did, I'd have given up on Linux and Unix Administration a long time ago
> and become a Windows weenie. However, I have always chosen to take the same
> posture that my maid does, "I DO NOT DO WINDOWS!"
> 
> And if Ham Radio is an obscure activity it is because how many talks were
> given on Amateur Radio at Schmoocon? At DEFCON? At places where the hacking
> and technical communities stand in congress together?  
> Perhaps the issue is marketing.
> 
> When last I went to DEFCON I saw an OVERCROWD of people waiting to learn how
> to pick a lock, pick a lock I said! Had a decent Ham Radio setup been there,
> with HF, Packet, Amateur TV, etc... we'd have likely done well at marketing
> our hobby.
> 
> 
> Stuart
> 
> 
> --
> 
> IT1 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR, N3GWG (Extra), MROP Las Vegas, NV / Boulder,
> CO / Philadelphia, PA / Beverly Hills, CA
> 
> (310) 358-0202 Mobile Phone
> (215) 338-6005 Google Voice
> 
> e-mail: stuart.tener@bh90210.net
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting Marius Petrescu <marius@yo2loj.ro>:
> 
>> Please take the effort to remember the whole thread...
>> 
>> It started because there was a proposal to rename node from the ax25 
>> suite into something else, so that "newcomer" node.js  could be named 
>> node instead.
>> (What a server side javascript package has with in common with the 
>> name node is still a mistery to me, maybe the authors should calle it 
>> kernel since the name and function seems to be irelevant and unrelated 
>> in their opinion...)
>> 
>> And the idea behind distros like Ubuntu is not about having or not the
>> ax25 package in the distribution, but the issue of CONSISTENCY. It is 
>> really idiotic to have "node" an ax25 node communication software as a 
>> package in one distro (e.g. Ubuntu) and in another one to have "node"
>> a java script package (talking about Debian where the discussion started).
>> Remember this happened before: axmail was just overrun by some After 
>> Logic XMail, without any hesitations. But this seems to be the trend...
>> For "the clicking generation", ham radio is an obscure activity which 
>> just can be trampled down since it does not result in nice pictures on 
>> a device with an bitten fruit on it, and packet radio just some 
>> obsolete non-important stuff that can be ignored (Duhhhh, ever heard 
>> of 3G
> and HSDPA?
>> Why would you want to use that?).
>> 
>> But again maybe this is a signal to get some fresh wind into ham radio 
>> apps, maybe ax.25 in its current concept is really obsolete. And in 
>> this case we need to do something about it. Making it maybe a little 
>> more
> "clickable"...
>> 
>> Marius, YO2LOJ
>> proud user of ax.25
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" 
>> in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo 
>> info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in the
> body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at
> http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in the
> body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at
> http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

_____
N7XY DX Cluster Node - telnet to n7xy.net, port 7300

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2012 24 May 20:04 -0500, Bob Nielsen wrote:
> Ah, for the days when a ham (Bruce Perens, Bdale Garbee) was the
> Debian Project Leader.

Unfortunately, both have stepped away from an active leadership role in
the Debian Project.  Given how the current DPL opted to stay out of this
issue if possible, would Bruce or Bdale have acted differently?  I don't
know.

I do not take my position merely because I am a licensed radio amateur
and therefore have sympathy toward the amateur radio related packages.
Rather, it seems to me that the onus should be on *new* packages to play
nicely with existing packages in any distribution, particulary ones that
are actively maintained.  In this case maintained refers to the Debian
maintainer keeping the package abreast of upstream and current with
Debian changes.

73, de Nate >>

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[Charles Boling (AD7UF)]

(Sorry for breaking the threading; I just joined the list and am
"replying" to an archived message.)

> You claim the existence of the packages in Debian encourages others
> to try ax25, if this is so where are these people?

Here's one! :-)

Having all those juicy ham-related packages staring at me every time I
launched Synaptic was the biggest factor in getting me to finally start
merging my two interests nearly 20 years after getting my tech license
and 30 after discovering computers.

Re: AX25 and related software's future in Debian

[John Goerzen]

On 05/17/2012 03:03 PM, Charles Boling (AD7UF) wrote:
> (Sorry for breaking the threading; I just joined the list and am
> "replying" to an archived message.)
>
>> You claim the existence of the packages in Debian encourages others
>> to try ax25, if this is so where are these people?
> Here's one! :-)

And here's another.  I have been a Debian developer for years, but only 
a ham since 2010.  I've had a great deal of fun with AX.25, and now run 
Debian-based digipeaters at various locations (on recycled EeePC 
hardware), including one at a county EOC.  It would be a great loss to 
see them missing.

-- John
KR0L